Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:49 AM - Re: Three point landings - update from Lee Taylor (Bob & Toodie Marshall)
2. 03:58 AM - Re: CG (Bob & Toodie Marshall)
3. 05:19 AM - Re: CG (Boyd C. Braem)
4. 06:17 AM - Re: Three point landings - another free opinion (John Huft)
5. 02:14 PM - LycCrankAD (JOHNTMEY@aol.com)
6. 02:42 PM - Re: RV-List: kabong? (John Starn)
7. 03:49 PM - Re: RV-List: kabong? (John Starn)
8. 03:56 PM - Re: Re: RV-List: Spinner install on Hartzell C/S (John Starn)
9. 07:30 PM - Re: LycCrankAD (Jones15183@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Three point landings - update from Lee Taylor |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Bob & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall@osbtown.com>
Lee, all very good points and well said, I sold "ole honey" to finance the
rocket, she was a precious C 180 that would eat your lunch in a cross wind
if you did not use all inputs properly and that includes over controlling, I
got to where I would only wear tennis shoes to fly in so I cold be light on
my feet so to speak! A fully loaded 180 and high cross winds would make you
wish you never left home and it never seemed to fail that every Friday
evening up here at Truckee there would be a screaming 30 degree X-wind out
of the south for your arrival! great challenges, I feel the rocket is pretty
straight forward to fly and I tend to tail low,mains first then tail, more
so I can keep more runway in sight , even though the peripheral vision is
at play. I am sure the wind will be blowing when I get back this afternoon
! great input on this subject. Bob N# 999RM Do not Archive----- Original
Message -----
From: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Three point landings - update from Lee Taylor
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@idcomm.com>
>
>
> This is fun! Hope you guys know that you have touched on one of
> my favorite career topics, landings. The only consistent point in
> flying where you are really REQUIRED to demonstrate your piloting
> ability.
>
> To go a little further in the landings discussion, let's review
> exactly what happens in a full three-point landing.
> First, very rarely does a plane COMPLETELY STALL on an initial
> touchdown. Those of you that have pointed out that the stall angle is
> higher than the ground sitting angle are correct. What we arrive at in
> a full three-point attitude landing is an AIRSPEED at which the plane
> will no longer sustain the LIFT to keep the plane airborne, hopefully
> 1-2" above the ground. Since this is usually a PARTIAL STALL of part of
> the wing, (usually starting at the tips working inward), this PARTIAL
> loss of lift is dramatic enough to cause a "good, solid arrival" if not
> properly timed.
> This can be easily felt in most taildragger planes because the
> initial rollout is frankly a little flaky, until enough speed is bled
> off that the wing actually does fully stall. In a plane like the
> Citabria or my Cessna 180, there is a definite point in the rollout when
> the plane actually settles its weight fully onto the gear after
> touchdown. In a low-wing plane like the Rocket, this bleed-off can be
> even more impressive, because the ground effect on a high-speed rollout
> is very highly pronounced.
>
> O-K, how can the landing be fine-tuned? First off, lets assume
> for now that we are only going to talk about the full three-point
> landing. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING to take into consideration is
> AIRSPEED CONTROL. Do you have, and tightly control, the EXACT airspeed
> that is proper for your plane and landing situation? HOW DO YOU KNOW
> what is proper? Did someone tell you, or are you analyzing exactly how
> your plane performs to arrive at the proper airspeed FOR YOUR PLANE?
> (and load, and CG condition, and wind conditions, and a dozen other
> affecting considerations).
> This really is fairly simple. If your landings tend to be
> flare-and-plop arrivals, with very little float in the flare, you are
> probably a little too slow on very short final. If you tend to
> flare-and-float, then that final speed is a little too high. Neither is
> a good thing! The slower than desired speed gives you very little
> leeway in adjusting your flare, sink rates tend to be high, (which urges
> you to pull the nose up a little higher to "slow the sink", DEFINITE
> OUCH!), there is very little leeway to fine-tune the flare, and it takes
> very little judgment mistake to turn a slow approach into a disaster.
> The higher than desired speed sets you up for ballooning tendencies
> which will get you into situations where you have lost too much speed,
> TOO HIGH! And OUCH! Is the proper statement when that happens.
> Remember that the landing is a fine demonstration (or,
> sometimes, an embarrassing demonstration!), of Aircraft Inertial Energy
> Control. Get too slow, the energy is too low to be able to effect a
> good landing. Too fast, and there is TOO MUCH energy. You are trying
> to arrive at that perfect balance that will give you exactly the right
> amount of energy/control to allow the perfect landing.
> In high-performance planes like the Rocket, control of that
> energy is much more critical than most planes. That's why they are more
> fun.
>
> The point has been made that other types of landings can be made
> more consistently in a smoother manner. Yes, that is true, but my point
> is that the full three-point landing is the most demanding of piloting
> ability, the most efficient in making the flying/rolling transition, and
> therefore is the one that is the most fun. It is the one that I practice
> most commonly. I KNOW I can do the other kinds satisfactorily!
>
> Having said that, I also want to make the strong point that
> THERE IS NO "BEST" WAY to make a landing. You need to know ALL the
> various techniques, be PROFICIENT in all the techniques, and USE THE ONE
> THAT IS BEST for your immediate needs. Only by knowing and practicing
> all the techniques are you fully familiar with your plane and its/your
> abilities. Once you are proficient in ALL of the techniques,
spend
> a lot of time sorting out exactly what works best for you, and you are
> most comfortable with, and develop your own technique, unique to you and
> your plane, and KNOW that you can use the other techniques whenever you
> want, then you are a pilot.
> Most importantly, whenever you "bobble" something, SIT DOWN AND
> ANALYZE OUT exactly WHAT, HOW and WHY it happened. The same analytical
> thinking should follow something that worked out well. "WHY did it
> happen that way?" Only by thoroughly understanding the fine details of
> why something happens can you arrive at comprehension. Comprehension is
> what gives you control. If you are just "rote flying" the way that
> someone told you was the "right way", then you really don't understand
> what you are doing. And lack of understanding is the only really
> dangerous thing in flying.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
Message 2
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Bob & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall@osbtown.com>
Larry, my HRII weighs about twenty one # at the tail empty and seems to be a
none problem, battery in the back, the stick is always back before you do
anything, but then that was the way I was taught to fly. the normal
configuration for my rocket is bag of stuff in the baggage dept, oil. tools
etc. Because that would be an issue during actual real world operations.
have fun. Bob N# 999RM. Do not archive. Original Message -----
From: "Larry E. James" <larry@ncproto.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: CG
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Larry E. James" <larry@ncproto.com>
>
> First, it was neat this morning to see 17 messages in the Rocket List ....
> and all concerning airplanes. Whoooo hoooo !!
>
> I have a question probably best answered with input from several Rocket
> drivers; regarding CG. I am building an HR2 with Mark's firewall and gear
> legs. Standard HR2 configurations establish a tailwheel weight in the 20#
> to 30# range. Standard F1 configurations establish a tailwheel weight in
> the 50# to 60# range (please correct me here if I'm incorrect on either
> count :-). I would like to end up with a tailwheel weight of 30# to 35#
> with the following configuration: Lycon IO-540, MT 3-blade prop (at least
> I'm pretty sure), and FI gear geometry (Mark's firewall and gear legs and
an
> Indy engine mount). The primary item up for moving is the battery, and
this
> is my reason for asking at this time. My rough thumb-in-the-air says that
I
> might be able to put the battery up on the firewall with this combination
> and wind up with my tailwheel weight at the targeted 30#. Any helpful
> advice is greatly appreciated.
>
> Larry E. James (Bellevue, WA HR2, fuselage)
> New Concepts Prototyping and Production
> phone 206 633 3111
> fax 206 633 3114
> larry@ncproto.com
>
>
Message 3
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Larry--
Two different schools of thought. John Harmon likes light tailwheels
and Mark Fredericks like heavier tailwheels. IIRC, John has stated in
previous emails that his personal plane had a tailwheel weight of 12-15#
(airframe horizontal) and has a gabillion hrs on the original bearings.
Mark has indicated that he prefers the heavier tailwheel weight to
reduce the chances of the tail coming up and the prop going down into
the pavement--could be largely an insurance concern. The tailwheel on
the Super 6 weighs 45# horizontal, but 95# in the 3-point stance. 95%
of the time I do wheels landings and the tailwheel doesn't come down
until the last moment--and yes I do get "attaboys" from the biz jet
pilots when I really slick one on! My battery is waaayyy in the back
and my cg range is actually broader than the standard -6. However, the
bearings on the tailwheel (after 500 hrs) are now louder than my
Falcon/Wultrad Turn Coordinator.
Probably the best way to start is to set up a W&B spreasheet and figure
out the station numbers for your fuselage and then just sit back and
play around with a bunch of numbers
Boyd.
Larry E. James wrote:
>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Larry E. James" <larry@ncproto.com>
>
>First, it was neat this morning to see 17 messages in the Rocket List ....
>and all concerning airplanes. Whoooo hoooo !!
>
>I have a question probably best answered with input from several Rocket
>drivers; regarding CG. I am building an HR2 with Mark's firewall and gear
>legs. Standard HR2 configurations establish a tailwheel weight in the 20#
>to 30# range. Standard F1 configurations establish a tailwheel weight in
>the 50# to 60# range (please correct me here if I'm incorrect on either
>count :-). I would like to end up with a tailwheel weight of 30# to 35#
>with the following configuration: Lycon IO-540, MT 3-blade prop (at least
>I'm pretty sure), and FI gear geometry (Mark's firewall and gear legs and an
>Indy engine mount). The primary item up for moving is the battery, and this
>is my reason for asking at this time. My rough thumb-in-the-air says that I
>might be able to put the battery up on the firewall with this combination
>and wind up with my tailwheel weight at the targeted 30#. Any helpful
>advice is greatly appreciated.
>
>Larry E. James (Bellevue, WA HR2, fuselage)
>New Concepts Prototyping and Production
>phone 206 633 3111
>fax 206 633 3114
>larry@ncproto.com
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Three point landings - another free opinion |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "John Huft" <skywagon@direcway.com>
Well, first I think we are agreeing that a 3 point landing and a full stall
landing are not usually the same thing, even though they are often spoken of
that way.
A few years ago, I was experimenting with different size tires on my C-180.
I wanted to go fast in the winter, so I put 6.00x6 on it (smallest
certified), and I wanted to camp at backcountry strips in Idaho in the
summer, so I put 8.50x6 on. The difference in attitude on the ground is
substantial, and the difference in the way it behaved in a 3 point landing
was large too. With the small tires, after the landing the plane would just
skitter down the runway, with little weight on the tires, because the wings
were still producing a fair amount of lift. With the larger tires, after a 3
pt. landing, it would calmly roll out; the wings were not producing much
lift at the higher angle of attack.
I would say my RV-8 behaves more like the 180 with small tires... right
after touchdown after a 3 pt landing the angle of attack is low enough that
the wings are still producing some lift. I also feel that the tailwheel
steering is over-sensitive at this point (maybe due to 1600 hours in
180/185s), so I don''t do it much.
As far as always landing the same way, I guess that is OK if you always have
the same conditions. Here in the Colorado mountains, conditions vary widely,
calling for different landing techniques. When we have a crosswind, it is
never steady, but always gusty and swirlly due to terrain, and I am more
comfortable with a wheel landing, and if it is real windy, half flaps and a
few extra knots. Even a nice, down the runway head wind is so gusty that to
approach stall speed in the air is foolish, so a wheel landing, with the
usual addition of 1/2 the gust speed is best. A couple of inches of snow on
the runway calls for 3-point, with power on and ready for more. A nice calm
morning and the tail-low wheely is nice.
Just one more opinion, fly safe y'all.
John Huft
Pagosa Springs, CO
Message 5
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: JOHNTMEY@aol.com
Guys, I am collecting engine bits... looking at old list-mail regarding the
Lycoming crankbolt AD. I need the kit for that... I see a 6-month old
posting from Jim Stone noting a supplier, A.E.R.O. Aviation with kit for $48.
Can't find the company, anyone have the ph. number or another supplier
similar price ?
Thanks, John Meyers Golden, CO
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: kabong? |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "John Starn" <jhstarn@earthlink.net>
OK, OK, one more time. See very short verison below. KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Subject: RV-List: kabong?
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson"
<evmeg@snowcrest.net>
>
> What or who is Kabong???? Or is this just some sort of computer geek code
:)??? Just curious...Evan
----- Original Message -----
From: John Starn
Subject: Re: KABONG
No relation to Bong. Kabong is a handle shortened from El Kabong of cartoon
fame. He "kabongs" bad guys with a guitar when I was a patrol Sgt on Fontana
PD and broke the stocks of two 12 ga shotguns by using the shotgun more like
a baton. Went to a City Halloween party dress all in western black complete
with guns. Someone asked if I were Quicks Draw McGraw, one of my patrolman
chimed with "Na, he's El Kabong" (Quicks Draw McGraws masked alter ego) and
it stuck. KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom
To: jhstarn@earthlink.net
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 5:15 AM
Subject: KABONG
Hey John!
I'm new here. What's the KABONG mean? Are you a relative of DickBONG or
an Aussie?
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: kabong? |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "John Starn" <jhstarn@earthlink.net>
Right on Jerry. Last person who took a "poke" at him wound up in jail with a
sore right hand and very short of breath. One 12 ga. stock broken. Let
sleeping kabongs lay. 8*) KABONG (GBA) Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
> Trust me you do not want to know what a Kabong is, best just let is lay
> and don't poke at it.
> all in fun
> do not archive
> Evan and Megan Johnson wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson"
<evmeg@snowcrest.net>
> > What or who is Kabong???? Or is this just some sort of computer geek
code :)??? Just curious...Evan
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Spinner install on Hartzell C/S |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "John Starn" <jhstarn@earthlink.net>
Forgot to say it but the "pointer" I used was a dial indicator. Kept moving
it until it was on the spinner point and not moving when the prop was
turned. KABONG (GBA) Do Not Archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Taylor" <leetay@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Re: RV-List: Spinner install on Hartzell C/S
> RE: Spinner alignment.
The only change I would make is to make the pointer a dial indicator, it is
easier to adjust things that way.
Message 9
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: Jones15183@aol.com
john, you can get this crankshaft gear bolt kit direct from Lycoming. Just
contactLycoming service center.. The proper part # is 05K19987,
nomenclature is Kit- C"Shaft Gear. Be sure that the gaskets are included.
If you have the engine out of plane and you don't have replace sump gasket
you can do the job in about 2 hours....billly waters
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