Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:40 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Boyd Braem)
2. 03:57 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Tom Martin)
3. 05:03 AM - Contact (f1rocket@telus.net)
4. 09:02 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Lee Taylor)
5. 09:03 AM - DigiTrak wing leveler (Jim Stone)
6. 09:20 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (C. Rabaut)
7. 09:28 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Mlfred@aol.com)
8. 09:32 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Bob & Toodie Marshall)
9. 09:54 AM - Re: DigiTrak wing leveler (Norman Younie)
10. 09:59 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (C. Rabaut)
11. 10:20 AM - Re: DigiTrak wing leveler (Boyd Braem)
12. 10:36 AM - Re: DigiTrak wing leveler (Fred Weaver)
13. 11:06 AM - Re: DigiTrak wing leveler (Boyd Braem)
14. 12:19 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Mlfred@aol.com)
15. 12:42 PM - Re: Spins in a HR/prop extension (Boyd Braem)
16. 02:16 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (David.vonLinsowe)
17. 04:14 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Randy Compton)
18. 04:19 PM - Re: Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (C. Rabaut)
19. 06:36 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Emrath)
20. 07:41 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (David.vonLinsowe)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Forward stick also applies when you fly "knife edge" and when you are
doing your daily dive bombing run.
"Napalm, Napalm, Sticks to Kids" (grunt running chant)--courtesy of a
certain Marine that lives on the E coast of FL and builds airplanes.
I love that name--"Whistling Death"--how perfect, how...... damn.
Boyd.
do not archive
On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 01:50 AM, Lee Taylor wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
> RE:hammerheads.
>
> Guys, when you are flying aerobatics, you should be thoroughly
> mentally prepared for what can happen, which can be tremendously
> different from what you EXPECT. Hammerheads are a case in point.
> A hammerhead is one of the easiest, lowest-stress manuvers that
> can be done. If done correctly. However, it is NOT a manuver that is
> automatically easy.
> Understand one thing very strongly. ALL planes, even
> full-blown
> acro birds, are LIFTING as you pull into the manuver. (Symmetrical
> foils are trimmed up, for level flight, so they are trimmed for lift
> also.) As you pull to the vertical, it will take considerable FORWARD
> STICK to maintain vertical, opposing that lift/trim, which will be
> trying to pull you over inverted as you become vertical. Otherwise,
> the
> plane will NATURALLY pull thru the vertical to a negative attitude. We
> are at full power, of course. <snip>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Martin" <fairlea@execulink.com>
Lee
Excellent post on the hammerheads, this is the kind of information that
I
look for from this list. I do not have a lot of experience with aerobatics
but I will do rolls, solo loops and solo Cuban eights. The key word here is
solo. Just because we have the power to do unusual manoeuvres with a
passenger in the back of this plane does not mean that it should be
considered safe. A hammerhead with a passenger in the back could be
completely different than Lee describes. I cannot imagine a situation flying
solo where the rocket would not drop the nose if you took your hand off the
stick. All bets are off with a passenger though. Fly safe guys.
Tom Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
RE:hammerheads.
Guys, when you are flying aerobatics, you should be thoroughly
mentally prepared for what can happen, which can be tremendously
different from what you EXPECT. Hammerheads are a case in point.
A hammerhead is one of the easiest, lowest-stress manuvers that
can be done. If done correctly. However, it is NOT a manuver that is
automatically easy.
Understand one thing very strongly. ALL planes, even full-blown
acro birds, are LIFTING as you pull into the manuver. (Symmetrical
foils are trimmed up, for level flight, so they are trimmed for lift
also.) As you pull to the vertical, it will take considerable FORWARD
STICK to maintain vertical, opposing that lift/trim, which will be
trying to pull you over inverted as you become vertical. Otherwise, the
plane will NATURALLY pull thru the vertical to a negative attitude. We
are at full power, of course.
In a properly flown manuver, you pull to vertical, and then you
are holding considerable forward stick to maintain the proper vertical,
opposing that natural lifting tendency of the airfoil AND TRIM which is
trying to pull you over onto your back. As the airspeed hits about
15-20 mph, (almost stopped), you stomp rudder to get the pivot, and come
in with OPPOSING aileron to keep the wings level as you pivot. (As the
plane rotates, the inside wing goes to zero airspeed, the outer wing
speeds up. The natural result is lift on the outside wing, which will
tend to roll the plane over to inverted if it pivots without the
opposing aileron.) The result PROPERLY DONE is a beautiful pivot from
the vertical, around the inside wingtip, wings staying vertical until
vertical-down is achieved. As soon as full pivot is achieved, power
should come off. Recovery is simply picking up speed then pulling to
level.
Let's foul up the manuver just a little, tho. We don't
initially get enough forward stick in to hold the vertical, and
consequently get a little too far toward inverted on the vertical
upline. (Remember that the plane will NATURALLY TRY to pull itself to
that position.) Pushing harder to get back to vertical, we arrive at the
stall with a little negative pitch attitude, (slightly inverted, instead
of vertical), full power, kicking rudder, and opposite aileron. What
happens now?
What happens is that when the plane stalls, since it is somewhat
over onto its back, is that you have a VIOLENT entry into an absolutely
textbook control input application to an inverted flat spin. You were
expecting a nice, gentle rotation on a very gentle hammerhead, and
because you fouled up slightly, instead you get a violent negative-G
fall entry into an inverted flat spin.
Think about it just a little. Inverted stall, forward stick,
hard rudder, OPPOSITE aileron, and full power. That, gentlemen, is
textbook control and power input for an inverted flat spin. And I can
almost guarantee you, those of us who do deliberate IFS's DO NOT enter
them from this kind of violent entry! And to fall suddenly
hard-negative and develop an inverted spin? When you were expecting a
nice, gentle rotation and beautiful, smooth, flowing positive-or-"0"-G
manuver? There are very few things that are more totally disorienting.
PLEASE, please, please. Any time something fouls up, have a
preplanned plan of action firmly in your mind. Any time you do not
recognize what has happened, IDLE POWER, and LET GO. Get off
everything. The plane will quickly stabilize in a NO-POWER dive, which
hopefully you can recognise and then recover from. Altitude permitting.
(Don't do low-level acro, guys. That's just plain stupid.)
I would suggest you then land, otherwise the plane gets stinky
pretty quickly from your pants.
Lee Taylor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Norman Younie
> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:24 PM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Norman Younie"
> <rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
>
> Chuck the next time you do a hammerhead make absolutely
> certain that you
> have quite flying. If the wings are generating any lift
> whatsoever you will
> flip over on your back. It took me several attempts to figure
> that one out.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut"
> <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > I ain't no "rocket scientist" (though I play one in my
> dreams), I
> would
> > strongly urge you to avoid inverted flat spins in the
> Rocket. I got into
> > one w/ 2 occupants and we were sorta maple leafing down at
> a fairly rapid
> > rate. This was with a carb (no inverted fuel) and the
> engine promptly
> > stopped. No amount of forward stick & full ailerons & rudder input
> seemed
> > to accomplish the desired rollin' over... The magic
> occurred when the
> > starter was engaged, and on about the third revolution the
> prop action
> > actually helped pull the nose down & we rolled back over.
> Recovery at
> that
> > point was textbook spin recovery (nose down to gain
> airspeed, hard rudder
> to
> > stop the spin, level wings and then bleed off excess speed as
> > safely/gradually as possible considering the terra firma rush).
> >
> > The "maple leaf" maneuver was accomplished whilst attempting a
> > hammerhead after a beautiful series of successful rolls, loops, and
> > semi-flat spins. But the hardest thing we did that day,
> was trying to
> pull
> > out all the seat cushion foam! :-}
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Christopher Norris <chrissnorris@yahoo.com>
> > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: Christopher Norris
> > <chrissnorris@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > > Non - politics topic:
> > >
> > > Anyone an expert in spins in the Rocket? Techniques
> > > for entry and exit? Comparison to other aircraft -
> > > Citabrias or Pitts, etc.? How about Rocket aerobatics
> > > in general? Anything that one just shouldn't attempt
> > > (assuming proper training)?
> > >
> > > Looking forward to some ROCKET talk!
> > >
> > > Chris N760RF
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> > > http://companion.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ===========
> ============
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
Message 3
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: f1rocket@telus.net
Hi,
Loved the talk of hammerheads, I want my plane in the air so bad...
Sorry if this shows up twice, but I've been having some troubles with my system.
Does anyone know a contact e-mail address for N737RD? I wish to ask him some
questions about his avionics.
Jeff
Message 4
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| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> Lee
> Excellent post on the hammerheads, this is the kind
> of information that I
> look for from this list. I do not have a lot of experience
> with aerobatics
> but I will do rolls, solo loops and solo Cuban eights. The
> key word here is
> solo. Just because we have the power to do unusual manoeuvres with a
> passenger in the back of this plane does not mean that it should be
> considered safe. A hammerhead with a passenger in the back could be
> completely different than Lee describes. I cannot imagine a
> situation flying
> solo where the rocket would not drop the nose if you took
> your hand off the
> stick. All bets are off with a passenger though. Fly safe guys.
>
> Tom Martin
>
TOM: Re acro with passengers. Way back when, when I was into acro in a
Christen Eagle, took a friend up for some. He was having fun, so I
asked him if he would like to see an Inverted Flat Spin. HADN'T DONE
ONE WITH A PASSENGER BEFORE. Also, unbeknownst to me, the owner of the
plane had moved the battery from behind the pilot's seat, to just behind
the firewall. Drastic --FORWARD-- C.G. change I wasn't fully aware of.
Long story slightly shorter. Plane didn't enter a flat spin,
couldn't because of the forward CG, but when I initiated flat spin
recovery, it did go HIGHLY accelerated spin. (spinning so fast that you
cannot tell direction or upright/inverted attitude is DEFINITELY
possible, I demonstrated.) Normal spin recovery techniques didn't work.
7,500 ft later, (started from 9,500 agl), finally got the plane to pop
out. Landed and cleaned pants.
I don't have experience with Rockets, BUT---passengers
drastically change your C.G. and loading, and consequently the handling
of the plane. Approach this kind of experience very carefully. And
with LOTS of altitude in case things don't go as planned. NEVER do any
kind of acro without an emergency-recovery plan. Think about what can
go wrong, mentally rehearse it beforehand, and be mentally prepared to
handle the situation should it develop. INCLUDING ALTITUDE!
If I hadn't prepared that way before this "event" I just
described, I wouldn't be here today talking to you. We had been doing
the acro at about 5,000 agl. I climbed to 9.5 for the spin.
Don't do low-level acro, guys. Be DAMNED sure of your C.G.
situation before any spinning manuvers. Airplanes are very safe and
stable IF THEY ARE SET UP PROPERLY. A passenger can foul up all those
setups. Even the SIZE of your passenger can mess you up. You might
have done great with a little lady in the seat, while a big man will
change things a whole bunch.
Lee Taylor
PS. Guys, I don't have TIME for this kind of discussion today. Getting
married in my hangar at Parkland Estates Airpark, Erie, (north Denver)
CO this Saturday. Anyone in the area, this is going to be an aviation
event, everyone arriving via plane, rings being delivered via skydivers,
YOU'RE INVITED! Flying Arrivals at 10-10:30 am, ceremony at 11:30,
"airshow" hopefully starts at noon. Fly-bys definitely welcome after
that time. 122.90 for advisories.
sailboat in New Zealand she sailed there with one friend from Florida.
Already started teaching her to fly, and she loves it.
Message 5
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| Subject: | DigiTrak wing leveler |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Has anyone installed and flown the Digitrak wing leveler in their
Rocket? I'm about to order one and would like to hear about any
negatives associated with this unit. First question that comes to mind
is ease of installation, any difficulties there?
Thanks,
Jim Stone
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Lee,
Thank you for your post!!!!
As they say "Live & Learn" (cuz' if you don't learn, you won't live
long).
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Taylor <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
> RE:hammerheads.
>
> Guys, when you are flying aerobatics, you should be thoroughly
> mentally prepared for what can happen, which can be tremendously
> different from what you EXPECT. Hammerheads are a case in point.
> A hammerhead is one of the easiest, lowest-stress manuvers that
> can be done. If done correctly. However, it is NOT a manuver that is
> automatically easy.
> Understand one thing very strongly. ALL planes, even full-blown
> acro birds, are LIFTING as you pull into the manuver. (Symmetrical
> foils are trimmed up, for level flight, so they are trimmed for lift
> also.) As you pull to the vertical, it will take considerable FORWARD
> STICK to maintain vertical, opposing that lift/trim, which will be
> trying to pull you over inverted as you become vertical. Otherwise, the
> plane will NATURALLY pull thru the vertical to a negative attitude. We
> are at full power, of course.
> In a properly flown manuver, you pull to vertical, and then you
> are holding considerable forward stick to maintain the proper vertical,
> opposing that natural lifting tendency of the airfoil AND TRIM which is
> trying to pull you over onto your back. As the airspeed hits about
> 15-20 mph, (almost stopped), you stomp rudder to get the pivot, and come
> in with OPPOSING aileron to keep the wings level as you pivot. (As the
> plane rotates, the inside wing goes to zero airspeed, the outer wing
> speeds up. The natural result is lift on the outside wing, which will
> tend to roll the plane over to inverted if it pivots without the
> opposing aileron.) The result PROPERLY DONE is a beautiful pivot from
> the vertical, around the inside wingtip, wings staying vertical until
> vertical-down is achieved. As soon as full pivot is achieved, power
> should come off. Recovery is simply picking up speed then pulling to
> level.
>
> Let's foul up the manuver just a little, tho. We don't
> initially get enough forward stick in to hold the vertical, and
> consequently get a little too far toward inverted on the vertical
> upline. (Remember that the plane will NATURALLY TRY to pull itself to
> that position.) Pushing harder to get back to vertical, we arrive at the
> stall with a little negative pitch attitude, (slightly inverted, instead
> of vertical), full power, kicking rudder, and opposite aileron. What
> happens now?
>
> What happens is that when the plane stalls, since it is somewhat
> over onto its back, is that you have a VIOLENT entry into an absolutely
> textbook control input application to an inverted flat spin. You were
> expecting a nice, gentle rotation on a very gentle hammerhead, and
> because you fouled up slightly, instead you get a violent negative-G
> fall entry into an inverted flat spin.
> Think about it just a little. Inverted stall, forward stick,
> hard rudder, OPPOSITE aileron, and full power. That, gentlemen, is
> textbook control and power input for an inverted flat spin. And I can
> almost guarantee you, those of us who do deliberate IFS's DO NOT enter
> them from this kind of violent entry! And to fall suddenly
> hard-negative and develop an inverted spin? When you were expecting a
> nice, gentle rotation and beautiful, smooth, flowing positive-or-"0"-G
> manuver? There are very few things that are more totally disorienting.
>
> PLEASE, please, please. Any time something fouls up, have a
> preplanned plan of action firmly in your mind. Any time you do not
> recognize what has happened, IDLE POWER, and LET GO. Get off
> everything. The plane will quickly stabilize in a NO-POWER dive, which
> hopefully you can recognise and then recover from. Altitude permitting.
> (Don't do low-level acro, guys. That's just plain stupid.)
> I would suggest you then land, otherwise the plane gets stinky
> pretty quickly from your pants.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > Norman Younie
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:24 PM
> > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> >
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Norman Younie"
> > <rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
> >
> > Chuck the next time you do a hammerhead make absolutely
> > certain that you
> > have quite flying. If the wings are generating any lift
> > whatsoever you will
> > flip over on your back. It took me several attempts to figure
> > that one out.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut"
> > <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > I ain't no "rocket scientist" (though I play one in my
> > dreams), I
> > would
> > > strongly urge you to avoid inverted flat spins in the
> > Rocket. I got into
> > > one w/ 2 occupants and we were sorta maple leafing down at
> > a fairly rapid
> > > rate. This was with a carb (no inverted fuel) and the
> > engine promptly
> > > stopped. No amount of forward stick & full ailerons & rudder input
> > seemed
> > > to accomplish the desired rollin' over... The magic
> > occurred when the
> > > starter was engaged, and on about the third revolution the
> > prop action
> > > actually helped pull the nose down & we rolled back over.
> > Recovery at
> > that
> > > point was textbook spin recovery (nose down to gain
> > airspeed, hard rudder
> > to
> > > stop the spin, level wings and then bleed off excess speed as
> > > safely/gradually as possible considering the terra firma rush).
> > >
> > > The "maple leaf" maneuver was accomplished whilst attempting a
> > > hammerhead after a beautiful series of successful rolls, loops, and
> > > semi-flat spins. But the hardest thing we did that day,
> > was trying to
> > pull
> > > out all the seat cushion foam! :-}
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Christopher Norris <chrissnorris@yahoo.com>
> > > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: Christopher Norris
> > > <chrissnorris@yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > > Non - politics topic:
> > > >
> > > > Anyone an expert in spins in the Rocket? Techniques
> > > > for entry and exit? Comparison to other aircraft -
> > > > Citabrias or Pitts, etc.? How about Rocket aerobatics
> > > > in general? Anything that one just shouldn't attempt
> > > > (assuming proper training)?
> > > >
> > > > Looking forward to some ROCKET talk!
> > > >
> > > > Chris N760RF
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> > > > http://companion.yahoo.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ===========
> > ============
> > ============
> > ============
> > ============
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Mlfred@aol.com
In a message dated 12/2/2003 11:14:50 AM Central Standard Time,
chrissnorris@yahoo.com writes:
Anyone an expert in spins in the Rocket?
Contact Ken Fowler at 403-845-3946. I think he'll be able to help -- closest
to an expert in type I can think of, after John, of course. He did warn me
about the hammerhead/spin situation -- said it wasn't really what he'd call fun.
My experience is that it wouldn't really spin (upright) when solo (with the
RV4 tail), but all bets are off if you're loaded dual, or inverted. I would
expect normal entries and recoveries to apply.
The F1 with the larger V sfcs spins normally, and recovers quickly (same
heavy nose). Again, testing done solo, and upright.
Expert? Not me...maybe that Gummo fella....I hear he's been there, done that.
;-)
Cheers!
Mark
Team Rocket
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Bob & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall@osb.net>
Rocketeers
Question? If Hartzell recommends no gyroscopic maneuvers because of the prop
extension are we not also hanging it out with that type of maneuver with
full power ? I am not an acro pilot but enjoy my rocket , but in a limited
manner to my capabilities. thanks for the input , Bob Marshall,
N#999RM.Please do not Archive----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
> RE:hammerheads.
>
> Guys, when you are flying aerobatics, you should be thoroughly
> mentally prepared for what can happen, which can be tremendously
> different from what you EXPECT. Hammerheads are a case in point.
> A hammerhead is one of the easiest, lowest-stress manuvers that
> can be done. If done correctly. However, it is NOT a manuver that is
> automatically easy.
> Understand one thing very strongly. ALL planes, even full-blown
> acro birds, are LIFTING as you pull into the manuver. (Symmetrical
> foils are trimmed up, for level flight, so they are trimmed for lift
> also.) As you pull to the vertical, it will take considerable FORWARD
> STICK to maintain vertical, opposing that lift/trim, which will be
> trying to pull you over inverted as you become vertical. Otherwise, the
> plane will NATURALLY pull thru the vertical to a negative attitude. We
> are at full power, of course.
> In a properly flown manuver, you pull to vertical, and then you
> are holding considerable forward stick to maintain the proper vertical,
> opposing that natural lifting tendency of the airfoil AND TRIM which is
> trying to pull you over onto your back. As the airspeed hits about
> 15-20 mph, (almost stopped), you stomp rudder to get the pivot, and come
> in with OPPOSING aileron to keep the wings level as you pivot. (As the
> plane rotates, the inside wing goes to zero airspeed, the outer wing
> speeds up. The natural result is lift on the outside wing, which will
> tend to roll the plane over to inverted if it pivots without the
> opposing aileron.) The result PROPERLY DONE is a beautiful pivot from
> the vertical, around the inside wingtip, wings staying vertical until
> vertical-down is achieved. As soon as full pivot is achieved, power
> should come off. Recovery is simply picking up speed then pulling to
> level.
>
> Let's foul up the manuver just a little, tho. We don't
> initially get enough forward stick in to hold the vertical, and
> consequently get a little too far toward inverted on the vertical
> upline. (Remember that the plane will NATURALLY TRY to pull itself to
> that position.) Pushing harder to get back to vertical, we arrive at the
> stall with a little negative pitch attitude, (slightly inverted, instead
> of vertical), full power, kicking rudder, and opposite aileron. What
> happens now?
>
> What happens is that when the plane stalls, since it is somewhat
> over onto its back, is that you have a VIOLENT entry into an absolutely
> textbook control input application to an inverted flat spin. You were
> expecting a nice, gentle rotation on a very gentle hammerhead, and
> because you fouled up slightly, instead you get a violent negative-G
> fall entry into an inverted flat spin.
> Think about it just a little. Inverted stall, forward stick,
> hard rudder, OPPOSITE aileron, and full power. That, gentlemen, is
> textbook control and power input for an inverted flat spin. And I can
> almost guarantee you, those of us who do deliberate IFS's DO NOT enter
> them from this kind of violent entry! And to fall suddenly
> hard-negative and develop an inverted spin? When you were expecting a
> nice, gentle rotation and beautiful, smooth, flowing positive-or-"0"-G
> manuver? There are very few things that are more totally disorienting.
>
> PLEASE, please, please. Any time something fouls up, have a
> preplanned plan of action firmly in your mind. Any time you do not
> recognize what has happened, IDLE POWER, and LET GO. Get off
> everything. The plane will quickly stabilize in a NO-POWER dive, which
> hopefully you can recognise and then recover from. Altitude permitting.
> (Don't do low-level acro, guys. That's just plain stupid.)
> I would suggest you then land, otherwise the plane gets stinky
> pretty quickly from your pants.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > Norman Younie
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:24 PM
> > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> >
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Norman Younie"
> > <rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
> >
> > Chuck the next time you do a hammerhead make absolutely
> > certain that you
> > have quite flying. If the wings are generating any lift
> > whatsoever you will
> > flip over on your back. It took me several attempts to figure
> > that one out.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut"
> > <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > I ain't no "rocket scientist" (though I play one in my
> > dreams), I
> > would
> > > strongly urge you to avoid inverted flat spins in the
> > Rocket. I got into
> > > one w/ 2 occupants and we were sorta maple leafing down at
> > a fairly rapid
> > > rate. This was with a carb (no inverted fuel) and the
> > engine promptly
> > > stopped. No amount of forward stick & full ailerons & rudder input
> > seemed
> > > to accomplish the desired rollin' over... The magic
> > occurred when the
> > > starter was engaged, and on about the third revolution the
> > prop action
> > > actually helped pull the nose down & we rolled back over.
> > Recovery at
> > that
> > > point was textbook spin recovery (nose down to gain
> > airspeed, hard rudder
> > to
> > > stop the spin, level wings and then bleed off excess speed as
> > > safely/gradually as possible considering the terra firma rush).
> > >
> > > The "maple leaf" maneuver was accomplished whilst attempting a
> > > hammerhead after a beautiful series of successful rolls, loops, and
> > > semi-flat spins. But the hardest thing we did that day,
> > was trying to
> > pull
> > > out all the seat cushion foam! :-}
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Christopher Norris <chrissnorris@yahoo.com>
> > > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: Christopher Norris
> > > <chrissnorris@yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > > Non - politics topic:
> > > >
> > > > Anyone an expert in spins in the Rocket? Techniques
> > > > for entry and exit? Comparison to other aircraft -
> > > > Citabrias or Pitts, etc.? How about Rocket aerobatics
> > > > in general? Anything that one just shouldn't attempt
> > > > (assuming proper training)?
> > > >
> > > > Looking forward to some ROCKET talk!
> > > >
> > > > Chris N760RF
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> > > > http://companion.yahoo.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ===========
> > ============
> > ============
> > ============
> > ============
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: DigiTrak wing leveler |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Norman Younie" <rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
The Digitrak is very simple to install. I haven't flown with it in the
rocket but you would be hard pressed to find a better unit elsewhere. I have
one in my RV-7 and it flies the plane better than I can in smooth air or
turbulence. I have no negative comments to make about it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: DigiTrak wing leveler
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Has anyone installed and flown the Digitrak wing leveler in their
> Rocket? I'm about to order one and would like to hear about any
> negatives associated with this unit. First question that comes to mind
> is ease of installation, any difficulties there?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim Stone
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Lee,
CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a chance, tell how
you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after loosing 7500' .
(inquiring minds want to know).
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Taylor <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
>
> > Lee
> > Excellent post on the hammerheads, this is the kind
> > of information that I
> > look for from this list. I do not have a lot of experience
> > with aerobatics
> > but I will do rolls, solo loops and solo Cuban eights. The
> > key word here is
> > solo. Just because we have the power to do unusual manoeuvres with a
> > passenger in the back of this plane does not mean that it should be
> > considered safe. A hammerhead with a passenger in the back could be
> > completely different than Lee describes. I cannot imagine a
> > situation flying
> > solo where the rocket would not drop the nose if you took
> > your hand off the
> > stick. All bets are off with a passenger though. Fly safe guys.
> >
> > Tom Martin
> >
> TOM: Re acro with passengers. Way back when, when I was into acro in a
> Christen Eagle, took a friend up for some. He was having fun, so I
> asked him if he would like to see an Inverted Flat Spin. HADN'T DONE
> ONE WITH A PASSENGER BEFORE. Also, unbeknownst to me, the owner of the
> plane had moved the battery from behind the pilot's seat, to just behind
> the firewall. Drastic --FORWARD-- C.G. change I wasn't fully aware of.
>
> Long story slightly shorter. Plane didn't enter a flat spin,
> couldn't because of the forward CG, but when I initiated flat spin
> recovery, it did go HIGHLY accelerated spin. (spinning so fast that you
> cannot tell direction or upright/inverted attitude is DEFINITELY
> possible, I demonstrated.) Normal spin recovery techniques didn't work.
> 7,500 ft later, (started from 9,500 agl), finally got the plane to pop
> out. Landed and cleaned pants.
>
> I don't have experience with Rockets, BUT---passengers
> drastically change your C.G. and loading, and consequently the handling
> of the plane. Approach this kind of experience very carefully. And
> with LOTS of altitude in case things don't go as planned. NEVER do any
> kind of acro without an emergency-recovery plan. Think about what can
> go wrong, mentally rehearse it beforehand, and be mentally prepared to
> handle the situation should it develop. INCLUDING ALTITUDE!
> If I hadn't prepared that way before this "event" I just
> described, I wouldn't be here today talking to you. We had been doing
> the acro at about 5,000 agl. I climbed to 9.5 for the spin.
>
> Don't do low-level acro, guys. Be DAMNED sure of your C.G.
> situation before any spinning manuvers. Airplanes are very safe and
> stable IF THEY ARE SET UP PROPERLY. A passenger can foul up all those
> setups. Even the SIZE of your passenger can mess you up. You might
> have done great with a little lady in the seat, while a big man will
> change things a whole bunch.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
> PS. Guys, I don't have TIME for this kind of discussion today. Getting
> married in my hangar at Parkland Estates Airpark, Erie, (north Denver)
> CO this Saturday. Anyone in the area, this is going to be an aviation
> event, everyone arriving via plane, rings being delivered via skydivers,
> YOU'RE INVITED! Flying Arrivals at 10-10:30 am, ceremony at 11:30,
> "airshow" hopefully starts at noon. Fly-bys definitely welcome after
> that time. 122.90 for advisories.
> sailboat in New Zealand she sailed there with one friend from Florida.
> Already started teaching her to fly, and she loves it.
>
>
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: DigiTrak wing leveler |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Then, you've got some air work to do. If you can't fly, what are you
going to do when your AP goes TU?
Boyd.
Venice, FL
do not archive
On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 12:54 PM, Norman Younie wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Norman Younie"
> <rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
>
> The Digitrak is very simple to install. I haven't flown with it in the
> rocket but you would be hard pressed to find a better unit elsewhere.
> I have
> one in my RV-7 and it flies the plane better than I can in smooth air
> or
> turbulence. I have no negative comments to make about it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Rocket-List: DigiTrak wing leveler
>
>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>>
>> Has anyone installed and flown the Digitrak wing leveler in their
>> Rocket? I'm about to order one and would like to hear about any
>> negatives associated with this unit. First question that comes to
>> mind
>> is ease of installation, any difficulties there?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jim Stone
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: DigiTrak wing leveler |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Pretty unecessary remark about Norm's flying skills... I'm sure the
way it was phrased was more of an endorsement for Digi Trak than a
confession about his skills... Lighten up...
Do not Archive
On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 10:18 AM, Boyd Braem wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
>
> Then, you've got some air work to do. If you can't fly, what are you
> going to do when your AP goes TU?
>
> Boyd.
> Venice, FL
>
> do not archive
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 12:54 PM, Norman Younie wrote:
>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Norman Younie"
>> <rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
>>
>> The Digitrak is very simple to install. I haven't flown with it in the
>> rocket but you would be hard pressed to find a better unit elsewhere.
>> I have
>> one in my RV-7 and it flies the plane better than I can in smooth air
>> or
>> turbulence. I have no negative comments to make about it.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Rocket-List: DigiTrak wing leveler
>>
>>
>>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
>>> <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>>>
>>> Has anyone installed and flown the Digitrak wing leveler in their
>>> Rocket? I'm about to order one and would like to hear about any
>>> negatives associated with this unit. First question that comes to
>>> mind
>>> is ease of installation, any difficulties there?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jim Stone
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _-
>> ======================================================================
>> >> _-> _-
>> ======================================================================
>> >> _-
>> ======================================================================
>> >> _-
>> ======================================================================
>> >> _-
>> ======================================================================
>> >>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: DigiTrak wing leveler |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Weave--
Sloppy pilots tend to die more frequently. I don't like dead pilots.
From my personal experience, recreational pilots have to upgrade and
maintain their skills.
Boyd.
On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 01:39 PM, Fred Weaver wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
>
> Pretty unecessary remark about Norm's flying skills... I'm sure the
> way it was phrased was more of an endorsement for Digi Trak than a
> confession about his skills... Lighten up...
> Do not Archive
> On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 10:18 AM, Boyd Braem wrote:
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Mlfred@aol.com
In a message dated 12/3/2003 1:44:44 PM Central Standard Time,
rtmarshall@osb.net writes:
Question? If Hartzell recommends no gyroscopic maneuvers because of the prop
extension are we not also hanging it out with that type of maneuver with
full power ?
You bet. But, reduce RPM to 2300 or so and the problem is lessened. But you
did identify the real issue: rotation speed (radians), not G. The ref is G, but
I'm told that our plane can't hit the rotational limit with available G. Not
the case in a hammerhead type maneuver....
In addition, if you do the maneuver correctly, the std oil system won't be
able to keep up...and if your gov runs out of oil, the RPM will exceed limits --
maybe quickly...and the 540 has a odd characteristic at about 3500+RPM: it
spits the prop off the front of the crank. OW!!
So, if you're doing hammerheads as a regular routine, keep an eye on that oil
press gage, and your hand on the throttle lever...
Mark
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a HR/prop extension |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
If you have the "standard" Hartzell prop that most Rockets have, with
the 4" (3.5"?) extension, then Hartzell recommends that you do not
exceed 4 Gs and do not perform "gyroscopic maneuvers"--however, they're
a tad hazy on what that maneuver is--a lumpy-czeck (lomcevak) is out
and probably snap-rolls. Other than that, I guess you have to use your
discretion--and we all know how good the average pilot is at that.
Boyd.
4" extension and my wife still left
do not archive
On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 12:31 PM, Bob & Toodie Marshall
wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Bob & Toodie Marshall"
> <rtmarshall@osb.net>
>
> Rocketeers
> Question? If Hartzell recommends no gyroscopic maneuvers because of
> the prop
> extension are we not also hanging it out with that type of maneuver
> with
> full power ? I am not an acro pilot but enjoy my rocket , but in a
> limited
> manner to my capabilities. thanks for the input , Bob Marshall,
> N#999RM.Please do not Archive----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>>
>> RE:hammerheads.
>>
>> Guys, when you are flying aerobatics, you should be thoroughly
>> mentally prepared for what can happen, which can be tremendously
>> different from what you EXPECT. Hammerheads are a case in point.
>> A hammerhead is one of the easiest, lowest-stress manuvers
>> that
>> can be done. If done correctly. However, it is NOT a manuver that is
>> automatically easy.
>> Understand one thing very strongly. ALL planes, even
>> full-blown
>> acro birds, are LIFTING as you pull into the manuver. (Symmetrical
>> foils are trimmed up, for level flight, so they are trimmed for lift
>> also.) As you pull to the vertical, it will take considerable FORWARD
>> STICK to maintain vertical, opposing that lift/trim, which will be
>> trying to pull you over inverted as you become vertical. Otherwise,
>> the
>> plane will NATURALLY pull thru the vertical to a negative attitude. We
>> are at full power, of course.
>> In a properly flown manuver, you pull to vertical, and then
>> you
>> are holding considerable forward stick to maintain the proper
>> vertical,
>> opposing that natural lifting tendency of the airfoil AND TRIM which
>> is
>> trying to pull you over onto your back. As the airspeed hits about
>> 15-20 mph, (almost stopped), you stomp rudder to get the pivot, and
>> come
>> in with OPPOSING aileron to keep the wings level as you pivot. (As
>> the
>> plane rotates, the inside wing goes to zero airspeed, the outer wing
>> speeds up. The natural result is lift on the outside wing, which will
>> tend to roll the plane over to inverted if it pivots without the
>> opposing aileron.) The result PROPERLY DONE is a beautiful pivot from
>> the vertical, around the inside wingtip, wings staying vertical until
>> vertical-down is achieved. As soon as full pivot is achieved, power
>> should come off. Recovery is simply picking up speed then pulling to
>> level.
>>
>> Let's foul up the manuver just a little, tho. We don't
>> initially get enough forward stick in to hold the vertical, and
>> consequently get a little too far toward inverted on the vertical
>> upline. (Remember that the plane will NATURALLY TRY to pull itself to
>> that position.) Pushing harder to get back to vertical, we arrive at
>> the
>> stall with a little negative pitch attitude, (slightly inverted,
>> instead
>> of vertical), full power, kicking rudder, and opposite aileron. What
>> happens now?
>>
>> What happens is that when the plane stalls, since it is
>> somewhat
>> over onto its back, is that you have a VIOLENT entry into an
>> absolutely
>> textbook control input application to an inverted flat spin. You were
>> expecting a nice, gentle rotation on a very gentle hammerhead, and
>> because you fouled up slightly, instead you get a violent negative-G
>> fall entry into an inverted flat spin.
>> Think about it just a little. Inverted stall, forward stick,
>> hard rudder, OPPOSITE aileron, and full power. That, gentlemen, is
>> textbook control and power input for an inverted flat spin. And I can
>> almost guarantee you, those of us who do deliberate IFS's DO NOT enter
>> them from this kind of violent entry! And to fall suddenly
>> hard-negative and develop an inverted spin? When you were expecting a
>> nice, gentle rotation and beautiful, smooth, flowing positive-or-"0"-G
>> manuver? There are very few things that are more totally
>> disorienting.
>>
>> PLEASE, please, please. Any time something fouls up, have a
>> preplanned plan of action firmly in your mind. Any time you do not
>> recognize what has happened, IDLE POWER, and LET GO. Get off
>> everything. The plane will quickly stabilize in a NO-POWER dive,
>> which
>> hopefully you can recognise and then recover from. Altitude
>> permitting.
>> (Don't do low-level acro, guys. That's just plain stupid.)
>> I would suggest you then land, otherwise the plane gets stinky
>> pretty quickly from your pants.
>>
>> Lee Taylor
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Norman Younie
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:24 PM
>>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>>>
>>>
>>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Norman Younie"
>>> <rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
>>>
>>> Chuck the next time you do a hammerhead make absolutely
>>> certain that you
>>> have quite flying. If the wings are generating any lift
>>> whatsoever you will
>>> flip over on your back. It took me several attempts to figure
>>> that one out.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>>> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut"
>>> <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>>>>
>>>> Chris,
>>>>
>>>> I ain't no "rocket scientist" (though I play one in my
>>> dreams), I
>>> would
>>>> strongly urge you to avoid inverted flat spins in the
>>> Rocket. I got into
>>>> one w/ 2 occupants and we were sorta maple leafing down at
>>> a fairly rapid
>>>> rate. This was with a carb (no inverted fuel) and the
>>> engine promptly
>>>> stopped. No amount of forward stick & full ailerons & rudder input
>>> seemed
>>>> to accomplish the desired rollin' over... The magic
>>> occurred when the
>>>> starter was engaged, and on about the third revolution the
>>> prop action
>>>> actually helped pull the nose down & we rolled back over.
>>> Recovery at
>>> that
>>>> point was textbook spin recovery (nose down to gain
>>> airspeed, hard rudder
>>> to
>>>> stop the spin, level wings and then bleed off excess speed as
>>>> safely/gradually as possible considering the terra firma rush).
>>>>
>>>> The "maple leaf" maneuver was accomplished whilst attempting a
>>>> hammerhead after a beautiful series of successful rolls, loops, and
>>>> semi-flat spins. But the hardest thing we did that day,
>>> was trying to
>>> pull
>>>> out all the seat cushion foam! :-}
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Christopher Norris <chrissnorris@yahoo.com>
>>>> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Subject: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Christopher Norris
>>>> <chrissnorris@yahoo.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Non - politics topic:
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone an expert in spins in the Rocket? Techniques
>>>>> for entry and exit? Comparison to other aircraft -
>>>>> Citabrias or Pitts, etc.? How about Rocket aerobatics
>>>>> in general? Anything that one just shouldn't attempt
>>>>> (assuming proper training)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking forward to some ROCKET talk!
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris N760RF
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
>>>>> http://companion.yahoo.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ===========
>>> ============
>>> ============
>>> ============
>>> ============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
Having done the inverted spin thing from hammers in a Pitts agree with
Lee. Except in the Pitts it was a very gentle ride. On your back too
far, holding more down than you need, left rudder and right ailerons and
around you go.
What probably saved Chuck's life was that he was trying to start the
engine (it wouldn't have helped) and he released some of the down
elevator. Most all airplanes will pull out of an inverted spin easier
than an upright spin, even flat spins. During an inverted spin less of
the vertical stab and rudder are blanked by the horizontal stab. What
gets people killed in a situation like this is disorientation and doing
the wrong thing. Whether it's not knowing if you're spinning upright or
inverted or even which direction you're spinning.
While spinning you can not roll the airplane over from inverted to
upright. You can reverse rotation direction and you can transition from
an inverted spin to an upright or visa-versa.
There has been considerable work done by the IAC and especially Gene
Beggs on emergency spin recovery. Gene has come with a four step plan
that works with almost every airplane.
1. Close the throttle.
2. Let go of the stick.
3. Opposite rudder to the direction of the spin.
4. Recover from the dive.
#2 is hard for pilots to do. Like in Chuck's case, he wasn't giving up,
he was trying. He was just trying the wrong thing.
#3 can fool you. You my perceive that you are spinning one direction
and actually spinning the other. So you're holding in hard rudder and
waiting for what seems a lifetime and nothing happens. Take your feet
back from the rudder peddles and push on the one that is pushing back at
you. The relative wind from the rotation will cause the rudder to be
blown over the opposite direction you need it to go to recover.
Chuck, I don't think you realize how really lucky you are that you
didn't splat. Get some spin training!
Dave
Time: 10:50:40 PM PST US
From: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
RE:hammerheads.
Guys, when you are flying aerobatics, you should be thoroughly
mentally prepared for what can happen, which can be tremendously
different from what you EXPECT. Hammerheads are a case in point.
A hammerhead is one of the easiest, lowest-stress manuvers that
can be done. If done correctly. However, it is NOT a manuver that is
automatically easy.
Understand one thing very strongly. ALL planes, even full-blown
acro birds, are LIFTING as you pull into the manuver. (Symmetrical
foils are trimmed up, for level flight, so they are trimmed for lift
also.) As you pull to the vertical, it will take considerable FORWARD
STICK to maintain vertical, opposing that lift/trim, which will be
trying to pull you over inverted as you become vertical. Otherwise, the
plane will NATURALLY pull thru the vertical to a negative attitude. We
are at full power, of course.
PLEASE, please, please. Any time something fouls up, have a
preplanned plan of action firmly in your mind. Any time you do not
recognize what has happened, IDLE POWER, and LET GO. Get off
everything. The plane will quickly stabilize in a NO-POWER dive, which
hopefully you can recognise and then recover from. Altitude permitting.
(Don't do low-level acro, guys. That's just plain stupid.)
I would suggest you then land, otherwise the plane gets stinky
pretty quickly from your pants.
Lee Taylor
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>
> Randy,
>
> Good point, but that's assuming you are in a "flat" inverted spin.
> Calm post incident analysis, aka "debriefing", lead both us to surmise we
> were flopping around sorta' tail heavy. It is possible that my efforts
> were counter productive, but hey I was tryin'..... and the controls were
> not.
>
> Chuck
The bottom line is you got out of it ok, which is the main thing! Just
tryin' to give a little food for thought.
RC
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Dave,
That's kind of a strange statement.
> Chuck, I don't think you realize how really lucky you are that you
> didn't splat.
I am strictly an amateur when it comes to aerobatics. Though I have
been a member of IAC for awhile, and agree with Gene Beggs' "4-Step Plan".
I am also "self-taught" but have enjoyed the pleasure of competing in my
RV-4 (& won 1st place) in the Basic Division at Delano a year or so back
when spins were required. I even got my Basic with Stars patch for
smoothness. I learned more from watching (on the ground & in the air),
listening, and doing during the three days of practice & competition than I
had in all the previous years of playing on my own. And I will take some
more training in the future; I love flying & I'm far from "well off" so $$$
is an issue.
As you may know each aircraft responds uniquely, and whilst playin'
around in an aircraft I had only flown a few times before, I basically
screwed the pooch. I take responsibility for all of my actions and the
pax (the a/c owner) "knew the job was dangerous when he took it" { all humor
intended }. We were "practicing" in a safe area, at a reasonably safe
altitude, wearing chutes, and doing what we love. Not a bad way to "go
splat" , I hope when I do go... I'll be doing something that fun/exciting.
So what do you fly, what kinda training do you have, and have you never
screwed the pooch?
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: David.vonLinsowe <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
<David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
>
>
> Having done the inverted spin thing from hammers in a Pitts agree with
> Lee. Except in the Pitts it was a very gentle ride. On your back too
> far, holding more down than you need, left rudder and right ailerons and
> around you go.
>
> What probably saved Chuck's life was that he was trying to start the
> engine (it wouldn't have helped) and he released some of the down
> elevator. Most all airplanes will pull out of an inverted spin easier
> than an upright spin, even flat spins. During an inverted spin less of
> the vertical stab and rudder are blanked by the horizontal stab. What
> gets people killed in a situation like this is disorientation and doing
> the wrong thing. Whether it's not knowing if you're spinning upright or
> inverted or even which direction you're spinning.
>
> While spinning you can not roll the airplane over from inverted to
> upright. You can reverse rotation direction and you can transition from
> an inverted spin to an upright or visa-versa.
>
> There has been considerable work done by the IAC and especially Gene
> Beggs on emergency spin recovery. Gene has come with a four step plan
> that works with almost every airplane.
>
> 1. Close the throttle.
>
> 2. Let go of the stick.
>
> 3. Opposite rudder to the direction of the spin.
>
> 4. Recover from the dive.
>
> #2 is hard for pilots to do. Like in Chuck's case, he wasn't giving up,
> he was trying. He was just trying the wrong thing.
>
> #3 can fool you. You my perceive that you are spinning one direction
> and actually spinning the other. So you're holding in hard rudder and
> waiting for what seems a lifetime and nothing happens. Take your feet
> back from the rudder peddles and push on the one that is pushing back at
> you. The relative wind from the rotation will cause the rudder to be
> blown over the opposite direction you need it to go to recover.
>
> Chuck, I don't think you realize how really lucky you are that you
> didn't splat. Get some spin training!
>
> Dave
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Emrath" <emrath@comcast.net>
Excellent Post, Thanks Lee!
Marty in Brentwood TN
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
Chuck,
Sorry for coming down on you so hard, but from your statement,
snip
<I would strongly urge you to avoid inverted flat spins in the Rocket. I got
into
one w/ 2 occupants and we were sorta maple leafing down at a fairly rapid
rate. This was with a carb (no inverted fuel) and the engine promptly
stopped. No amount of forward stick & full ailerons & rudder input seemed
to accomplish the desired rollin' over...>
I surmised you were less than prepared for doing any type of spin. You don't use
down elevator to recover from an inverted flat spin (there is a rare exception,
in some airplanes you have to return to a "normal" inverted spin before recovery).
The airplane won't "roll over" while in a spin, there is not enough
aileron authority. The gyroscopic effects of the prop tend to aggravate flat
spins (rotation to the left).
At what point during your descent were you going to try something else? Because
unless you did you would have spun to the ground with the control inputs you
were using.
It good to hear that you had chutes on. If the spin would have gone to point where
you were ready to leave you would have let go of the stick and the airplane
probably would have fell out of the spin.
snip
<So what do you fly, what kinda training do you have, and have you
never screwed the pooch?>
I had the 5 hour spin training before I bought a Pitts S-2 eight years ago for
insurance reasons. Pryor to that I flew a Decathlon at the sportsman level and
a couple of hours in an Extra along with the usual Cessnas, Pipers, ultra lights,
hang glider and R/Cs. I've done every spin variation in the Pitts except
knife edge spins (a Pitts won't do them like a monoplane). My first hammer
I did with a Pitts I went into an inverted flat spin. I did the Beggs technique
and I was surprised how fast it came out of the spin. I've gone into a flat
spin falling out of botched torque roll.
I've recently "upgraded" from the Pitts to a RV-6 (which was meant to be an interim
airplane before a F-2 Rocket now Speed Cruiser), at lease my wife can see
more of me than my ankles when we go somewhere. :-) And from what I hear about
the spin characteristics of the 6 I probably won't be spinning it.
I may be being selfish here, but when one of us gets in trouble and crashes, especially
from doing aerobatics, it can hurt the rest of us with more imposed regs.
So screwing the pooch while doing something you love to do is not a good
option while flying.
Have I used more than my $.02? I hope that, what caused the spin is understood
so the that the chances of it happening again to you or someone else are greatly
reduced. And if it does happen the right steps for recovery are taken so
it's a non-event.
Dave
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Dave,
That's kind of a strange statement.
> Chuck, I don't think you realize how really lucky you are that you
> didn't splat.
I am strictly an amateur when it comes to aerobatics. Though I
have
been a member of IAC for awhile, and agree with Gene Beggs' "4-Step
Plan".
****************************************************************************************
Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential
and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the
intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this
message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If
you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.
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