Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:10 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Lee Taylor)
2. 12:22 AM - A Special Thank You - List of Contributors (Matt Dralle)
3. 12:51 AM - Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket (Fred Weaver)
4. 07:10 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Senior)
5. 07:19 AM - Re: Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket (Lee Taylor)
6. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (C. Rabaut)
7. 07:45 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Jim Stone)
8. 07:55 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Boyd Braem)
9. 08:24 AM - Re: Spins/parachutes (Boyd Braem)
10. 08:24 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (C. Rabaut)
11. 08:28 AM - Re: Rocket-- List of Contributors (C. Rabaut)
12. 08:30 AM - Re: Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket (C. Rabaut)
13. 08:52 AM - Re: Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket (Fred Weaver)
14. 09:45 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Bob & Toodie Marshall)
15. 09:49 AM - Re: Spins/parachutes (Jim Stone)
16. 10:35 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Lee Taylor)
17. 11:53 AM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Richard Bibb)
18. 12:06 PM - Re: Spins/parachutes (Tom Hall)
19. 02:19 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Jim Stone)
20. 02:22 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Jim Stone)
21. 02:34 PM - MT prop (Jim Stone)
22. 04:32 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Greg Young)
23. 05:40 PM - Potential Rocket (Steve Gandy)
24. 08:52 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Lee Taylor)
25. 09:07 PM - Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Lee Taylor)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> Lee,
>
> CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
> chance, tell how
> you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after loosing 7500' .
> (inquiring minds want to know).
>
> Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or direction I was
spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had failed, (and
several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I verified I was at
idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized finally in a
normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable), and when I
recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped out in the
desired stable dive.
I will say that with the changed CG position, (necessary because
the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems developed
because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a plane that was
not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental preparation
mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not proper for what
the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up planes just
won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing what happened
here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room sometimes,
and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you ever need it.
As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one time, then, as
some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
maneuvers.
Lee Taylor
Message 2
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| Subject: | A Special Thank You - List of Contributors |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
This year's List Fund Raiser was pleasantly successful and I want to thank
everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the continued
operation and upgrade of these Lists! Below you will find the complete
list of this year's Contributors. Its these great guys that make it all
possible! All of the List members owe these special people a debt of
gratitude.
I would also like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder Bookstore (
http://www.buildersbooks.com ) for again this year providing free and
substantially discounted merchandise in support of the Fund Raiser. Andy
is a great guy and I encourage you to check out his very nice web
site. Thanks again, Andy!!
For those of you that ordered gifts with your Contribution, I will be
shipping these out over the next few weeks as the merchandise arrives and
as I can get all of the orders processed. Its quite a job so I appreciate
your patience! I hope to have everything on its way by the end of the
month if not sooner.
If you would still like to make a Contribution to support the Lists, please
feel free to do so! If you'd like to receive one of the awesome free
gifts, they will be available on the web page though the end of the
month. The Contribution web page can be found here:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Finally, I would like to once again sincerely thank each and everyone of
you that took the time to make a Contribution to support the Lists this
year! Your kind support greatly appreciated!
THANK YOU!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
------------------- 2003 List of Contributors #1 -----------------
Adamson, Arden
Akin, Thomas
Alber, John
Alexander, Don
Alexander, George
Allender, Pat
Allison, Steven
Amick, Michael
Amundsen, Blair
Anderson, Douglas
Anderson, Edward
Andrews, Myles
Anthony, Bruce
Applefeld, Gerald
Aronson, David
Aschliman, Jim
Atkinson, Harold
Austin, Peter
Avant, David
Ayers, Jim
Babb, Tony
Bahrns, Stan
Bailey, Rick
Baker, Gary
Baker, James
Baker, Owen
Baker, Roger
Bales, Robert
Ballenger, Jim
Balmer, G
Banus, Mark
Barnett, William
Barrie, Darwin
Barter, Thomas
Basiliere, Richard
Bataller, Gary
Batte, W.Granville
Bean, James
Bean, Robert
Beard, Harley
Becker, Charles
Bell, BruceB.
Belted, Air Power, Ltd
Benham, Dallas
Benjamin, Hal
Benson, Lonn
Benson, Lonnie
Berg, Wayne
Bergeron, Daniel
Bernard, William
Berner, Walter
Bernier, Jim
Berry, Bruce
Bertelli, John
Bertrand, Carl
Berube, Bob
Bezzard, Richar
Bidle, Jerry
Bieberdorf, Roger
Bish, Dan
Blackwell, Charles
Blake, Peter
Blank, Steven
Blomgren, Jack
Bohannon, Larry
Bond, Charles
Bonsell, Edward
Booze, Greg
Borne, Chuck
Bosomworth, David
Boucher, Michel
Boulet, Paul
Bourne, Larry
Bowen, Larry
Bowhay, Eustace
Brame, Charles
Branstrom, Dan
Brasch, Glenn
Breckenridge, Bruce
Brick, John
Brogley, Michael
Brooks, Chris
Brooks, John
Brooks, Ken
Brooks, William
Broomell, Glenn
Brown, Gerald R.
Bruce, L.B.
Bruch, Stein
Brunke, Judy
Buchanan, Sam
Buchmann, Kenneth
Buess, Alfred
Bullock, Jack
Bumhoffer, Al
Burke, James
Burks, Terrell
Burns, John
Burton, Charlie
Burton, James
Burton, Ron
Butcher, James
Butcher, Ron
Butler, Francis
Butterfield, John
Buyse, Lieven
Calhoun, Ron
Calloway, Terry
Campbell, Greg
Cann, Robert
Cantrell, Jimmy
Capen, Ralph
Capra, Salvatore
Cardell, William
Carden, Richard
CarillonSr., Paul
Carney, William
Carpenter, Kenneth
Carr, David
Carroll, Randy
Carson, Rowland
Carter, David
Cary, William
Challgren, Stanley
Chambers, Ken
Champ, Nicolas
Chandler, Charles
Chandler, John
Ciolino, John
Clark, James
Clark, John
Clarkson, Scott
Clayton, James
Cliff, John
Cloud, Ralph
Clyma, Frank
Cochran, Jerry
Coffey, John
Coggins, Michael
Cole, Gary
Cole, Gerry
Colley, Larry
Colucci, Tony
Combined, Merchants
Combs, Doyle
Comer, Dave
Comfort, Gordon
Compton, Scott
Conaway, James
Condrey, Bob
Cone, James
Connell, Joseph
Conrad, Gerald
Conti, Richard
Cook, Craig
Cooley, John
Cooper, James
Corbalis, Leo
Corbette, Claude
Corder, Michael
Corner, Jim
Cotter, Tim
Cotton, David
Cottrell, Larry
Coulter, Carlin
Coursey, William
Courtney, Dean
Courtney, James
Couture, Wayne
Cribb, William
Croke, Jon
Crook, Tracy
Crosby, Harry
Crosley, Richard
Cruikshank, Bruce
D'Onofrio, John
Dalstrom, Douglas
Dalton, Bob
Daniel, Karie
Danielsen, HansJurgen
Darby, Frank
Daudt, Larry
Davenport, Jimmy
Davidson, Adam And Janet
Davidson, Jeff
Davies, Brian
Davis, Charles
Davis, Chris
Davis, Nathan
Davis, Peter
Davis, Terry
Dawson , Clif
Dawson, Garth
DeJong, Jan
Dearinger, William
Decramer, Dick
Deford, David
Denham, Bob
Dennis, Chris
Derouchey, Bill
Desmond, Richard
Devaney, Bob
Devere, Al
Diehl, Don
Diffenbaugh, Scott
Disher, John
Dixon, Thomas (Steve)
Dominy, Ken
Donaldson, Norman
Doran, Thomas
Dresden, Robert
Driscoll, Patrick
Dube, Bill
Dudley, Richard
Duffy, Russell
Dukerich, Thomas
Dumoret, Paul
Eagleston, Ron
Eckel, John
Edwards, Garland
Edwards, Joseph
Eginton, William
Eli, Robert
Ellenberger, Mike
Elliott, Andrew
Ellison, Craig
Enga, Wallace
Engh, Duncan
Enns, Dennis
Erb, Bob
Erickson, Alan
Erickson, Gerald
Erikson, Donald
Ervin, Tom
Erwin, Chip
Esterhuizen, Deon
Etherington, Al
Evans, Walt
Evenson, Roger
Fackler, Ken
Faris, Kevin
Farmer, Daniel
Fasching, John
Feldmann, StephenW.
Ferrer, Gabriel
Finley, John
Finley, Jon
Fischer, Doug
Fishe, JF
Fisher, Dru
Fisher, Michael
Fisher, Tom
Fitzpatrick, Robert
Flamini, Dennis
Flavin, John
Fleck, Joe
Foerster, James
Fogerson, Richard
Forrest, Gerald
Fox, Byron
Franz, Carl
Frazier, Ford
Frazier, Vince
Friedland, Thomas
Frizzell, Alex
Frye, Dwight
Fulgham, W.R.
Fulmer, JosephA
Fux, Franz
Gagnon, Laurent
Gagnon, Tim
Galati, Rick
Gallagher, Noel
Galley, Cy
Gantzer, Charles
Gardner, Albert
Gardner, Terrence
Garner, Mitchell
Gates, Leo
Gawronski, Brian
Gaylen Lerohl, Terminaltown
Geldermann, Dan
Genzlinger, Reade
George, William
Gerken, James
German, Mark
Gernetzke-hays, Jill
Gherardini, Don
Giacona, William
Giddens, Gerald
Gillespie, Dick
Giusti, Roberto
Glass, Roy
Golden, Shane
Gonzalez, Jorge
Goode, Richard
Goodings, John
Goodman, David
Goolsby, JamesE.
Gordon, Keith
Gott, Shelby
Goudinoff, Peter
Gowing, John
Grabb, Gary
Graber, Joel
Graham, Gary
Graham, Jim
Graham, W.Doyce
Grant, Jordan
Grebe, David
Green, Luther
Green, Roger
Greenough, Jim
Gregory, Michael
Griffin, Bill
Griffin, James
Griffin, Robert
Grosse, John
Gustafson, Aaron
Haertlein, Frank
Hagar, Steve
Haley, Gary
Hallsten, Keith
Hamer, Steve
Hamilton, William J
Hand, Chris
Hankins, Roger
Hankinson, Jimmy
Harbour, Keith
Hardaway, Mike
Harding, Joel
Harmon, John
Harrison, Nigel
Hartwig, Richard
Harvey, Dale
Hasper, Jim
Hatch, Pat
Hatcher, Edmund
Hatfield, Cecil Jr.
Hauck, JohnR
Haynes, Joel
Heath, Donald
Hefner, Jim
Heindl, Karl
Heitman, Christopher
Helming, Larry
Heritch, Ian
Herminghaus, John
Herren, Bill
Hetrick, Dale
Heykoop, John
Hibbing, William
Hill, Jeff
Hill, Ken
Hill, Stanley A
Himes, Joe
Hinrichsen, Jim
Hodgson, Mark
Hodgson, Robert
Hoffman, Carl
Hoffman, Curtis
Hoffmann, Thomas
Hohos, Charles
Holifield, Steve
Holland, Mike
Holland, Rick
Holmes, Tom
Hood, Bill
Hooper, Gerald
Hooper, Randy
Horton, Kevin
Hostetler, Donald
Howell, Pete
Howerton, Bill
Hubbard, Eugene
Hudson, Jeff
Hueltz, Wolfgang
Huff, Scott
Huft, John
Hughes, Robert
Hulen, Fred
Humbert, Robert
Humes, Hubert
Humes, Hugh
Humphrey, Roger
Hunt, Peter
Hunt, Wallace G
Hurd, James
Hurst, Kingsley
Hutchison, Tom
Hyde, David
Ice, Michael
Iddon, Richard
Irvin, Robert
Isler, Jerry
Jackson, Kevin
Jacobson, Marshall
Jannakos, Gregory
Jaussi, Curtis
Jenkins, John
Jensen, Jerry
Jewell, James
Johannsson, Johann G.
John Allen Hurn, Hurns Aircraft
Johnsen, Svein
Johnson, Bruce
Johnson, Dale
Johnson, Dennis
Johnson, Les
Johnson, Murray
Johnson, Robert
Johnston, Stephen
Jones, Eric
Joosten, Craig
Jordan, JR
Joyce, David
Jurotich, Matthew
Kahn, Steve
Kaluza, Charles
Karmy, Andrew
Kaser, Jim
Kayner, Dennis
Kellum, Mark
Kempthorne, Hal
Kent, John
Kerr, John
Kerr, Joseph
Kesterton, Donald
Kilburg, Larry
Killion, Clay
Kimsey, Thomas
Kinney, Kevin
Kirby, Graham
Kirk, Tony
Knepper, Harold
Knoll, Lynn
Kohn, Carl
Koonce, R.L.
Kosta, Michael
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Kovac, Harold
Kramer, Ed
Krasinski, Jerzy
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Kuntz, Paul
Kyle, Fergus
Lahey, Jim
Laird, Dave
Laishes, Jeff
Lally, Sean
Lalonde, Bart
Landucci, Larry
Lannon, W.
Lasecki, Robert
Laurie, Kip
Laverty, Charles
Lavigne, Pat
Lawliss, James
Lawrence, Derek
Lawton, John
Ledbetter, Gene
Ledoux, Paul
Lee, Terrence
Lefler, Fabian
Lekven, Carl
Lemen, Ted
Lenton, Dennis
Leonard, Nicolas
Leslie, George
Lewis, Terry
Lewis, Tim
Licking, Larry
Lifer, Craig
Liming, Gary
Linebaugh, Jeff
Linse, Michael
Lloyd, Brian
Long, Charles
Long, Eugene
Long, Patrick
Loubert, Gary
Mack, Don
Mackay, Alex
Madden, Peter
Magsam, Del
Mahr, Egon
Mains, Ralph
Malich, Gunter
Markle, Jim
Markwell, Cleone
Marshall, F.R.
Marshall, Nigel
Marson, Thomas
Martin, Bryan
Martin, Clifford
Martin, Richard
Mason, Ron
Matteson, Robert
Maxson, Phillip
Maynor, Troy
Mcallister, Paul
Mcbride, Duncan
Mccallister, Donald
Mccallum, Bob
Mccutchan, Bruce
Mcfarland, Larry
Mcfarland, Randy
Mcfarlane, Lloyd
Mcgregor, Bruce
Mcintosh, Wayne
Mcintyre, Jay
Mckervey, Joseph
Mcleod, Neil
Mcmanus, Jim
Medeiros, Joel
Meehan, Don
Mekeel, DonaldE
Melenyzer, Charles IV
Merchant, Dean
Merrill, Dj
Messinger, Paul
Meyette, Brian
Michel, Riazuelo
Miller, David
Miller, Mark
Miller, Robert
Miller, Warren
Mills, Moe
Mills, William
Milner, Gregory
Milner, Red
Mineart, Stephen
Mitchell, HD
Moak, Ken
Montagne, Raymond
Montgomery, Dale
Moore, David
Moore, Glenn
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Nyman, Stephen
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O'Donnell, David
O'Reilly, Colm
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Oldford, David
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Orear, Jeff
Otaola, Ricardo
Ouellette, Will
Overall, Dana
Owens, Duane
Owens, Phil
Packard, Tom
Parker, Dennis
Parks, Dann
Partyka, LeeM
Patsey, Kevin
Patterson, Ron
Payne, Craig
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Perez, M. Domenic
Perkins, Stan
Perry, John
Petaccia, Ettore
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Ray, Rob
Reading, Thomas Sr
Red Dragon Aviation
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Reese, Wayne
Reeves, William
Reimer, Curt
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Scroggs, Ross
Seaford, Jack
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Selix, Richard
Setser, David
Settlemyer, Art
Shank, William
Shaw, Cliff
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Skelly, Brian
Sletten, Mark
Sloan, Alex
Smith, Danny L
Smith, David
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Smith, Simon
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Solecki, John
Sorensen, Kent
Sorensen, Lance
Spainhower, Craig
Sparks, Timothy
Spence, Stephen
Spencer, Russell
Springer, Jerry
Staley, Dick
Starn, John H. "kabong"
Stewart, Michael
Stewart, Paul
Stewart, Shannon
Stone, Christopher
Stout, Randall
Strawn, David
Strong, Gary
Strong, Tom
Stuart, Clay
Sutterfield, Stan
Swaney, Mark
Swanson, Ronald
Swartzendruber, David
Sweeney, Timothy
Swinford, George
Szantho, JohnB.
Szarafinski, Roy
Szentmiklosi, Mark
Tarmar, Brian
Tasker, Richard
Textor, Jack
Thesee, Gilles
Thomas, Bruce
Thomas, Gummo
Thomas, Lee
Thomason, Michael
Thompson, Scott
Thomure, Randall
Thwing, Randy
Titcomb, Edward
Tomlin, Thomas
Tower, John
Tracy, Roger
Trainer, Dave
Trombley, Erich
Trost, Sebastian
Trumpfheller, Bob
Tuton, Beauford
Twigg, Alan
Tyler, George
Unruh, Brian
Unternaehrer, Rolf
Utter, Bob
Van Winkle, Dean
VanHeeswijk, Jack
VanHeuveln, Lemar
VanSchoonhoven, Peter
Vanartsdalen, Scott
Vandenbroek, Martin
Vangrunsven, Stan
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Vincent, Bill
Vogt, Gary
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Wagoner, Richard
Waldal, Art B.
Walker, Dale
Walker, Tommy
Walker, Weston
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Walsh, Denis
Ward, Timothy
Washburn, Oliver
Watson, Richard
Watson, Terrence
Watters, Daniel
Weaver, Erich
Weaver, Fred
Webb, Randol
Weber, Edward
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Whiteside, Eric
Whittier, Lavoy (aka Bucky)
Wigney, John
Wiley, Robert
Williams , John
Williams, Hildred
Williams, Jeff
Williams, Lawrence
Williams, Terry
Williamson, John
Willig, Louis
Wilson, Christopher
Wilson, Kelly
Wimmer, Thomas
Wingard, David
Winings, James
Winne, Edward
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Wood, Frank
Wood, Larry
Woods, Donald
Woods, Harold
Wright, Roy
Wsiaki, Michael
Wymer, Jerry
Yager, Jack
Yamokoski, William
Young, Rollin
Zaric, Radomir
Zheng, Andrew
Zilik, Gary
Zinkham, Ralph
Zollinger, Duane
Zuniga, Oscar
------------------- 2003 List of Contributors #1 -----------------
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
And remember.......This all took place in a Christian Eagle, not a
Rocket...........
On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 12:09 AM, Lee Taylor wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
>
>> Lee,
>>
>> CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
>> chance, tell how
>> you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after loosing 7500' .
>> (inquiring minds want to know).
>>
>> Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
> experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
> tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or direction I was
> spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had failed, (and
> several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
> actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
> have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I verified I was at
> idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
> upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized finally in a
> normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable), and when
> I
> recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped out in
> the
> desired stable dive.
> I will say that with the changed CG position, (necessary
> because
> the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
> would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
>
> One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems developed
> because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
> preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
> accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a plane that was
> not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental preparation
> mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not proper for
> what
> the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up planes just
> won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing what happened
> here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room sometimes,
> and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you ever need
> it.
> As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one time, then,
> as
> some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
> maneuvers.
>
> Lee Taylor
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Senior <senior@omantel.net.om>
Just for clarification guys cause I'm confused now - Up until this point
I have always thought the manoevre
discussed to this point was a "stall turn", and that a hammerhead was a
pull to the vertical followed by tailslide,
and then the violent flop over to the vertical downside. Have I had it
wrong all this time??
By the way I am no aero's expert, have unfortunately not done any for a
long time. Nor am I a builder, however
I do hope to be some time soon.
Thanks Joe
Message 5
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| Subject: | Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Re: Spins.
A couple of the guys have brought up a very important point
about Rockets, and that is that the design calls for the prop shaft
extension. Aircraft with prop shaft extensions, ESPECIALLY very
powerful planes with BIG props, SHOULD NOT be doing extreme
high-rate-of-pitch or angle change maneuvers. The simple fact of the
prop extension probably increases the gyroscopic forces on the
crankshaft by a factor of ten, and this is a real good way to lose a
prop due to a broken crankshaft. Remember that extension DOES NOT give
ANY extra support to the crankshaft forward shaft, it just adds a moment
arm that multiplies those forces.
Rockets, and similar planes with those beautiful pointy
shaft-extended noses, should be limited to rolling and gently looping
maneuvers, avoiding like the plague the snap and spin maneuvers. If
these maneuvers are done at all, they should be ONLY done at IDLE power,
and even then, the gyroscopic loads on the crankshaft are too extreme.
Remember that even at flight idle, that prop is spinning at 1500-2000
rpm, and the gyroscopic loads are still there, even tho the power
loading forces aren't.
If you want to fly real high-performance acro, then get a real
high-performance acro plane. To do so in a plane with a shaft extension
like the Rocket is taking the plane into realms that it just isn't
designed to be, and far beyond where it can be expected to remain in one
piece.
As to what maneuvers are on the do-not-do list, just visualize
what is happening to the prop. Any maneuver that causes the prop to
violently change its plane of rotation, which is virtually any of the
spin/snap combinations, should be avoided. Even a hammerhead is highly
stressful on the crankshaft.
Lee Taylor
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Dave,
Your comments are accurate and I stand (actually sit) corrected.
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: David.vonLinsowe <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
<David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
>
>
> Chuck,
>
> Sorry for coming down on you so hard, but from your statement,
>
> snip
> <I would strongly urge you to avoid inverted flat spins in the Rocket. I
got into
> one w/ 2 occupants and we were sorta maple leafing down at a fairly rapid
> rate. This was with a carb (no inverted fuel) and the engine promptly
> stopped. No amount of forward stick & full ailerons & rudder input
seemed
> to accomplish the desired rollin' over...>
>
> I surmised you were less than prepared for doing any type of spin. You
don't use down elevator to recover from an inverted flat spin (there is a
rare exception, in some airplanes you have to return to a "normal" inverted
spin before recovery). The airplane won't "roll over" while in a spin,
there is not enough aileron authority. The gyroscopic effects of the prop
tend to aggravate flat spins (rotation to the left).
>
> At what point during your descent were you going to try something else?
Because unless you did you would have spun to the ground with the control
inputs you were using.
>
> It good to hear that you had chutes on. If the spin would have gone to
point where you were ready to leave you would have let go of the stick and
the airplane probably would have fell out of the spin.
>
> snip
> <So what do you fly, what kinda training do you have, and have you
> never screwed the pooch?>
>
> I had the 5 hour spin training before I bought a Pitts S-2 eight years ago
for insurance reasons. Pryor to that I flew a Decathlon at the sportsman
level and a couple of hours in an Extra along with the usual Cessnas,
Pipers, ultra lights, hang glider and R/Cs. I've done every spin variation
in the Pitts except knife edge spins (a Pitts won't do them like a
monoplane). My first hammer I did with a Pitts I went into an inverted flat
spin. I did the Beggs technique and I was surprised how fast it came out of
the spin. I've gone into a flat spin falling out of botched torque roll.
>
> I've recently "upgraded" from the Pitts to a RV-6 (which was meant to be
an interim airplane before a F-2 Rocket now Speed Cruiser), at lease my wife
can see more of me than my ankles when we go somewhere. :-) And from what I
hear about the spin characteristics of the 6 I probably won't be spinning
it.
>
> I may be being selfish here, but when one of us gets in trouble and
crashes, especially from doing aerobatics, it can hurt the rest of us with
more imposed regs. So screwing the pooch while doing something you love to
do is not a good option while flying.
>
> Have I used more than my $.02? I hope that, what caused the spin is
understood so the that the chances of it happening again to you or someone
else are greatly reduced. And if it does happen the right steps for
recovery are taken so it's a non-event.
>
> Dave
>
>
> From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 2:21:06 PM US/Pacific
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>
> Dave,
>
> That's kind of a strange statement.
> > Chuck, I don't think you realize how really lucky you are that you
> > didn't splat.
>
> I am strictly an amateur when it comes to aerobatics. Though I
> have
> been a member of IAC for awhile, and agree with Gene Beggs' "4-Step
> Plan".
>
>
****************************************************************************
************
>
> Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and
confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible
for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.
>
>
****************************************************************************
************
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Lee,
Because "shit" happens, acro pilots should wear parachutes. In fact,
they are required by the FARs. Did you at any time wish you had the
bailout option during the high pucker factor seconds you under went? Or
since then?
Glad you regained control.
Jim
PS. Not sure how difficult it would be to unstrap, unplug, blow canopy,
and get separated from the aircraft in time to pull the ripcord. Plenty
difficult I'll bet.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> Lee,
>
> CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
> chance, tell how
> you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after loosing 7500' .
> (inquiring minds want to know).
>
> Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or direction I was
spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had failed, (and
several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I verified I was at
idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized finally in a
normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable), and when I
recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped out in the
desired stable dive.
I will say that with the changed CG position, (necessary because
the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems developed
because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a plane that was
not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental preparation
mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not proper for what
the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up planes just
won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing what happened
here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room sometimes,
and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you ever need it.
As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one time, then, as
some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
maneuvers.
Lee Taylor
=
==
==
==
==
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
If you tail slide in a hammerhead, you're pretty much f*cked. As Lee
Taylor very eloquently posted, it's a pivot around the down wing
tip--if you turn with a radius, you loose--it's a pivot.
Boyd.
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Spins/parachutes |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Jim--
I suggest you re-read FAR 91.307 (c) (...carrying any person (other
than a crewmember)...).
Some of the airplanes we fly, it's almost impossible to bail out of, so
wearing a 'chute is like a guy wearing a condom and taking his wife's
birth control pills.
That's why a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 is so nice, because you can slide the
canopy back and just step out on the wing--provided, of course that
conditions actually let you do that. Might be a little hard in a flat
spin, which was a recent topic of discussion.
Boyd.
Venice, FL
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Lee,
Thanks for your reply. I probably refer to my "learning incident"
in-correctly as an inverted "flat-spin" only because I haven't had any
"inverted flat-spin" training so I have nothing to compare what we were
doing with.
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Taylor <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
>
> > Lee,
> >
> > CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
> > chance, tell how
> > you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after loosing 7500' .
> > (inquiring minds want to know).
> >
> > Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
> experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
> tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or direction I was
> spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had failed, (and
> several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
> actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
> have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I verified I was at
> idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
> upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized finally in a
> normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable), and when I
> recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped out in the
> desired stable dive.
> I will say that with the changed CG position, (necessary because
> the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
> would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
>
> One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems developed
> because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
> preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
> accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a plane that was
> not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental preparation
> mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not proper for what
> the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up planes just
> won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing what happened
> here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room sometimes,
> and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you ever need it.
> As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one time, then, as
> some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
> maneuvers.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rocket-- List of Contributors |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Hey Dave,
Come on man, you're benefiting from this experience too. Time to cough
up a contribution to the cause.
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: A Special Thank You - List of Contributors
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> This year's List Fund Raiser was pleasantly successful and I want to thank
> everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the continued
> operation and upgrade of these Lists! Below you will find the complete
> list of this year's Contributors. Its these great guys that make it all
> possible! All of the List members owe these special people a debt of
> gratitude.
>
> I would also like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder Bookstore
> http://www.buildersbooks.com ) for again this year providing free and
> substantially discounted merchandise in support of the Fund Raiser. Andy
> is a great guy and I encourage you to check out his very nice web
> site. Thanks again, Andy!!
>
> For those of you that ordered gifts with your Contribution, I will be
> shipping these out over the next few weeks as the merchandise arrives and
> as I can get all of the orders processed. Its quite a job so I
appreciate
> your patience! I hope to have everything on its way by the end of the
> month if not sooner.
>
> If you would still like to make a Contribution to support the Lists,
please
> feel free to do so! If you'd like to receive one of the awesome free
> gifts, they will be available on the web page though the end of the
> month. The Contribution web page can be found here:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> Finally, I would like to once again sincerely thank each and everyone of
> you that took the time to make a Contribution to support the Lists this
> year! Your kind support greatly appreciated!
>
> THANK YOU!
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List Administrator
>
>
> ------------------- 2003 List of Contributors #1 -----------------
> Adamson, Arden
> Akin, Thomas
> Alber, John
> Alexander, Don
> Alexander, George
> Allender, Pat
> Allison, Steven
> Amick, Michael
> Amundsen, Blair
> Anderson, Douglas
> Anderson, Edward
> Andrews, Myles
> Anthony, Bruce
> Applefeld, Gerald
> Aronson, David
> Aschliman, Jim
> Atkinson, Harold
> Austin, Peter
> Avant, David
> Ayers, Jim
> Babb, Tony
> Bahrns, Stan
> Bailey, Rick
> Baker, Gary
> Baker, James
> Baker, Owen
> Baker, Roger
> Bales, Robert
> Ballenger, Jim
> Balmer, G
> Banus, Mark
> Barnett, William
> Barrie, Darwin
> Barter, Thomas
> Basiliere, Richard
> Bataller, Gary
> Batte, W.Granville
> Bean, James
> Bean, Robert
> Beard, Harley
> Becker, Charles
> Bell, BruceB.
> Belted, Air Power, Ltd
> Benham, Dallas
> Benjamin, Hal
> Benson, Lonn
> Benson, Lonnie
> Berg, Wayne
> Bergeron, Daniel
> Bernard, William
> Berner, Walter
> Bernier, Jim
> Berry, Bruce
> Bertelli, John
> Bertrand, Carl
> Berube, Bob
> Bezzard, Richar
> Bidle, Jerry
> Bieberdorf, Roger
> Bish, Dan
> Blackwell, Charles
> Blake, Peter
> Blank, Steven
> Blomgren, Jack
> Bohannon, Larry
> Bond, Charles
> Bonsell, Edward
> Booze, Greg
> Borne, Chuck
> Bosomworth, David
> Boucher, Michel
> Boulet, Paul
> Bourne, Larry
> Bowen, Larry
> Bowhay, Eustace
> Brame, Charles
> Branstrom, Dan
> Brasch, Glenn
> Breckenridge, Bruce
> Brick, John
> Brogley, Michael
> Brooks, Chris
> Brooks, John
> Brooks, Ken
> Brooks, William
> Broomell, Glenn
> Brown, Gerald R.
> Bruce, L.B.
> Bruch, Stein
> Brunke, Judy
> Buchanan, Sam
> Buchmann, Kenneth
> Buess, Alfred
> Bullock, Jack
> Bumhoffer, Al
> Burke, James
> Burks, Terrell
> Burns, John
> Burton, Charlie
> Burton, James
> Burton, Ron
> Butcher, James
> Butcher, Ron
> Butler, Francis
> Butterfield, John
> Buyse, Lieven
> Calhoun, Ron
> Calloway, Terry
> Campbell, Greg
> Cann, Robert
> Cantrell, Jimmy
> Capen, Ralph
> Capra, Salvatore
> Cardell, William
> Carden, Richard
> CarillonSr., Paul
> Carney, William
> Carpenter, Kenneth
> Carr, David
> Carroll, Randy
> Carson, Rowland
> Carter, David
> Cary, William
> Challgren, Stanley
> Chambers, Ken
> Champ, Nicolas
> Chandler, Charles
> Chandler, John
> Ciolino, John
> Clark, James
> Clark, John
> Clarkson, Scott
> Clayton, James
> Cliff, John
> Cloud, Ralph
> Clyma, Frank
> Cochran, Jerry
> Coffey, John
> Coggins, Michael
> Cole, Gary
> Cole, Gerry
> Colley, Larry
> Colucci, Tony
> Combined, Merchants
> Combs, Doyle
> Comer, Dave
> Comfort, Gordon
> Compton, Scott
> Conaway, James
> Condrey, Bob
> Cone, James
> Connell, Joseph
> Conrad, Gerald
> Conti, Richard
> Cook, Craig
> Cooley, John
> Cooper, James
> Corbalis, Leo
> Corbette, Claude
> Corder, Michael
> Corner, Jim
> Cotter, Tim
> Cotton, David
> Cottrell, Larry
> Coulter, Carlin
> Coursey, William
> Courtney, Dean
> Courtney, James
> Couture, Wayne
> Cribb, William
> Croke, Jon
> Crook, Tracy
> Crosby, Harry
> Crosley, Richard
> Cruikshank, Bruce
> D'Onofrio, John
> Dalstrom, Douglas
> Dalton, Bob
> Daniel, Karie
> Danielsen, HansJurgen
> Darby, Frank
> Daudt, Larry
> Davenport, Jimmy
> Davidson, Adam And Janet
> Davidson, Jeff
> Davies, Brian
> Davis, Charles
> Davis, Chris
> Davis, Nathan
> Davis, Peter
> Davis, Terry
> Dawson , Clif
> Dawson, Garth
> DeJong, Jan
> Dearinger, William
> Decramer, Dick
> Deford, David
> Denham, Bob
> Dennis, Chris
> Derouchey, Bill
> Desmond, Richard
> Devaney, Bob
> Devere, Al
> Diehl, Don
> Diffenbaugh, Scott
> Disher, John
> Dixon, Thomas (Steve)
> Dominy, Ken
> Donaldson, Norman
> Doran, Thomas
> Dresden, Robert
> Driscoll, Patrick
> Dube, Bill
> Dudley, Richard
> Duffy, Russell
> Dukerich, Thomas
> Dumoret, Paul
> Eagleston, Ron
> Eckel, John
> Edwards, Garland
> Edwards, Joseph
> Eginton, William
> Eli, Robert
> Ellenberger, Mike
> Elliott, Andrew
> Ellison, Craig
> Enga, Wallace
> Engh, Duncan
> Enns, Dennis
> Erb, Bob
> Erickson, Alan
> Erickson, Gerald
> Erikson, Donald
> Ervin, Tom
> Erwin, Chip
> Esterhuizen, Deon
> Etherington, Al
> Evans, Walt
> Evenson, Roger
> Fackler, Ken
> Faris, Kevin
> Farmer, Daniel
> Fasching, John
> Feldmann, StephenW.
> Ferrer, Gabriel
> Finley, John
> Finley, Jon
> Fischer, Doug
> Fishe, JF
> Fisher, Dru
> Fisher, Michael
> Fisher, Tom
> Fitzpatrick, Robert
> Flamini, Dennis
> Flavin, John
> Fleck, Joe
> Foerster, James
> Fogerson, Richard
> Forrest, Gerald
> Fox, Byron
> Franz, Carl
> Frazier, Ford
> Frazier, Vince
> Friedland, Thomas
> Frizzell, Alex
> Frye, Dwight
> Fulgham, W.R.
> Fulmer, JosephA
> Fux, Franz
> Gagnon, Laurent
> Gagnon, Tim
> Galati, Rick
> Gallagher, Noel
> Galley, Cy
> Gantzer, Charles
> Gardner, Albert
> Gardner, Terrence
> Garner, Mitchell
> Gates, Leo
> Gawronski, Brian
> Gaylen Lerohl, Terminaltown
> Geldermann, Dan
> Genzlinger, Reade
> George, William
> Gerken, James
> German, Mark
> Gernetzke-hays, Jill
> Gherardini, Don
> Giacona, William
> Giddens, Gerald
> Gillespie, Dick
> Giusti, Roberto
> Glass, Roy
> Golden, Shane
> Gonzalez, Jorge
> Goode, Richard
> Goodings, John
> Goodman, David
> Goolsby, JamesE.
> Gordon, Keith
> Gott, Shelby
> Goudinoff, Peter
> Gowing, John
> Grabb, Gary
> Graber, Joel
> Graham, Gary
> Graham, Jim
> Graham, W.Doyce
> Grant, Jordan
> Grebe, David
> Green, Luther
> Green, Roger
> Greenough, Jim
> Gregory, Michael
> Griffin, Bill
> Griffin, James
> Griffin, Robert
> Grosse, John
> Gustafson, Aaron
> Haertlein, Frank
> Hagar, Steve
> Haley, Gary
> Hallsten, Keith
> Hamer, Steve
> Hamilton, William J
> Hand, Chris
> Hankins, Roger
> Hankinson, Jimmy
> Harbour, Keith
> Hardaway, Mike
> Harding, Joel
> Harmon, John
> Harrison, Nigel
> Hartwig, Richard
> Harvey, Dale
> Hasper, Jim
> Hatch, Pat
> Hatcher, Edmund
> Hatfield, Cecil Jr.
> Hauck, JohnR
> Haynes, Joel
> Heath, Donald
> Hefner, Jim
> Heindl, Karl
> Heitman, Christopher
> Helming, Larry
> Heritch, Ian
> Herminghaus, John
> Herren, Bill
> Hetrick, Dale
> Heykoop, John
> Hibbing, William
> Hill, Jeff
> Hill, Ken
> Hill, Stanley A
> Himes, Joe
> Hinrichsen, Jim
> Hodgson, Mark
> Hodgson, Robert
> Hoffman, Carl
> Hoffman, Curtis
> Hoffmann, Thomas
> Hohos, Charles
> Holifield, Steve
> Holland, Mike
> Holland, Rick
> Holmes, Tom
> Hood, Bill
> Hooper, Gerald
> Hooper, Randy
> Horton, Kevin
> Hostetler, Donald
> Howell, Pete
> Howerton, Bill
> Hubbard, Eugene
> Hudson, Jeff
> Hueltz, Wolfgang
> Huff, Scott
> Huft, John
> Hughes, Robert
> Hulen, Fred
> Humbert, Robert
> Humes, Hubert
> Humes, Hugh
> Humphrey, Roger
> Hunt, Peter
> Hunt, Wallace G
> Hurd, James
> Hurst, Kingsley
> Hutchison, Tom
> Hyde, David
> Ice, Michael
> Iddon, Richard
> Irvin, Robert
> Isler, Jerry
> Jackson, Kevin
> Jacobson, Marshall
> Jannakos, Gregory
> Jaussi, Curtis
> Jenkins, John
> Jensen, Jerry
> Jewell, James
> Johannsson, Johann G.
> John Allen Hurn, Hurns Aircraft
> Johnsen, Svein
> Johnson, Bruce
> Johnson, Dale
> Johnson, Dennis
> Johnson, Les
> Johnson, Murray
> Johnson, Robert
> Johnston, Stephen
> Jones, Eric
> Joosten, Craig
> Jordan, JR
> Joyce, David
> Jurotich, Matthew
> Kahn, Steve
> Kaluza, Charles
> Karmy, Andrew
> Kaser, Jim
> Kayner, Dennis
> Kellum, Mark
> Kempthorne, Hal
> Kent, John
> Kerr, John
> Kerr, Joseph
> Kesterton, Donald
> Kilburg, Larry
> Killion, Clay
> Kimsey, Thomas
> Kinney, Kevin
> Kirby, Graham
> Kirk, Tony
> Knepper, Harold
> Knoll, Lynn
> Kohn, Carl
> Koonce, R.L.
> Kosta, Michael
> Kottke, Dwight
> Kovac, Harold
> Kramer, Ed
> Krasinski, Jerzy
> Krok, Peter
> Krueger, Grant
> Kunkel, Fred
> Kuntz, Paul
> Kyle, Fergus
> Lahey, Jim
> Laird, Dave
> Laishes, Jeff
> Lally, Sean
> Lalonde, Bart
> Landucci, Larry
> Lannon, W.
> Lasecki, Robert
> Laurie, Kip
> Laverty, Charles
> Lavigne, Pat
> Lawliss, James
> Lawrence, Derek
> Lawton, John
> Ledbetter, Gene
> Ledoux, Paul
> Lee, Terrence
> Lefler, Fabian
> Lekven, Carl
> Lemen, Ted
> Lenton, Dennis
> Leonard, Nicolas
> Leslie, George
> Lewis, Terry
> Lewis, Tim
> Licking, Larry
> Lifer, Craig
> Liming, Gary
> Linebaugh, Jeff
> Linse, Michael
> Lloyd, Brian
> Long, Charles
> Long, Eugene
> Long, Patrick
> Loubert, Gary
> Mack, Don
> Mackay, Alex
> Madden, Peter
> Magsam, Del
> Mahr, Egon
> Mains, Ralph
> Malich, Gunter
> Markle, Jim
> Markwell, Cleone
> Marshall, F.R.
> Marshall, Nigel
> Marson, Thomas
> Martin, Bryan
> Martin, Clifford
> Martin, Richard
> Mason, Ron
> Matteson, Robert
> Maxson, Phillip
> Maynor, Troy
> Mcallister, Paul
> Mcbride, Duncan
> Mccallister, Donald
> Mccallum, Bob
> Mccutchan, Bruce
> Mcfarland, Larry
> Mcfarland, Randy
> Mcfarlane, Lloyd
> Mcgregor, Bruce
> Mcintosh, Wayne
> Mcintyre, Jay
> Mckervey, Joseph
> Mcleod, Neil
> Mcmanus, Jim
> Medeiros, Joel
> Meehan, Don
> Mekeel, DonaldE
> Melenyzer, Charles IV
> Merchant, Dean
> Merrill, Dj
> Messinger, Paul
> Meyette, Brian
> Michel, Riazuelo
> Miller, David
> Miller, Mark
> Miller, Robert
> Miller, Warren
> Mills, Moe
> Mills, William
> Milner, Gregory
> Milner, Red
> Mineart, Stephen
> Mitchell, HD
> Moak, Ken
> Montagne, Raymond
> Montgomery, Dale
> Moore, David
> Moore, Glenn
> Moore, Marbert
> Moore, Warren
> Morawski, Brett
> Morelli, William
> Morin, Mauri
> Morrison, Douglas
> Morrison, Malcolm
> Morrow, Dan
> Mosher, Doc
> Mosier, Colby
> Mrotzek, Dan
> Muegge, James
> Murphy, George
> Murray, Ronald
> Murrill, Robert
> Myers, John
> Myhra, Donald
> Nascimento, Marcio
> Nash, Simon
> Neilsen, Richard
> Nelson, William
> Nicely, Vincent
> Nickless, Jim
> Nickson, Dennis
> Nolan, Jim
> North, Wheeler
> Noyer, Robert
> Nyman, Stephen
> O'Brien, Dan
> O'Donnell, David
> O'Reilly, Colm
> Oberst, James
> Oconnor, Edward
> Ohlinger, Judith
> Ohlinger, Mark & Judy
> Okeefe, Lawrence
> Oldford, David
> Olendorf, James
> Orear, Jeff
> Otaola, Ricardo
> Ouellette, Will
> Overall, Dana
> Owens, Duane
> Owens, Phil
> Packard, Tom
> Parker, Dennis
> Parks, Dann
> Partyka, LeeM
> Patsey, Kevin
> Patterson, Ron
> Payne, Craig
> Payne, Ron
> Pelletier, Dave
> Perez, M. Domenic
> Perkins, Stan
> Perry, John
> Petaccia, Ettore
> Peterson, Alex
> Peterson, David
> Peterson, Paul
> Petri, David
> Pettey, Don
> Petty, Paul
> Pflimlin, Paul
> Pfundt, Jan
> Phillips, Mark
> Phillips, Russell
> Pierce, Tony
> Pike, Richard
> Pilling, Kevin
> Pinkston, Gordon
> Plecenik, Michael
> Pocock, Graham
> Point, Jeff
> Porter, Richard
> Potter, Lee
> Powell, Jim
> Powell, Ken
> Preston, Douglas
> Pritchard, Roger
> Proctor, Joe
> Puckett, Greg
> Puglise, James
> Rabaut, Charles
> Raby, Ron
> Randolph, George
> Ray, Rick
> Ray, Rob
> Reading, Thomas Sr
> Red Dragon Aviation
> Reeck, Kris And Art
> Reel, David
> Reese, Wayne
> Reeves, William
> Reimer, Curt
> Render, James
> Repucci, William
> Reuschle, Jeffrey
> Reusser, Hans-Peter
> Reynolds, Richard
> Rice, James
> Richards, Stephen
> Richardson, Colin
> Richardson, Scott
> Richter, Randall
> Rickard, Ian
> Rickman, Loy
> Rigby, David
> Riley, Stuart
> Ringrose, Andrew
> Robert, Nuckolls
> Roberts, Gary
> Roberts, Jeffrey
> Roberts, John
> Rodebush, James
> Rodriguez, Paul
> Roehr, Mike
> Romine, Chris
> Ross, Chris
> Ross, William
> Rourke, John
> Rozendaal, Doug
> Russell, E.Frank
> Russell, Jack
> Russell, Keith
> Ryan, Mike
> Sa, Carlos
> Saffold, Michael
> Sager, Truman
> Salter, Phillip
> Sanders, Andrew
> Sapp, Doug
> Sargent, Thomas
> Satterlee, Robert
> Sax, Samuel
> Schaefer, Steven
> Schertz, William
> Schieber, Cedrdic
> Schilling, Karl
> Schlafly, Fred
> Schlatterer, Bill
> Schmidt, Gregory
> Schmidt, John & Patty
> Schneider, Werner
> Schnitzlein, C.E.
> Schoenberger, H.Robert
> Schrimmer, Mark
> Schroeder, Fire
> Schroeder, John
> Schumacher, Roger
> Scott, James
> Scott, Troy
> Scroggs, Ross
> Seaford, Jack
> Seal, John
> Selby, Jim, Sr. & Jr.
> Selinger, Carsten
> Selix, Richard
> Setser, David
> Settlemyer, Art
> Shank, William
> Shaw, Cliff
> Shepherd, Dallas
> Shepherd, Stanislaus
> Shipley, Rob
> Shipley, Walt
> Shipp, Garry
> Shumaker, Robert
> Siegfried, Bob
> Sigmon, Harvey
> Silvanic, Ed
> Simmons, Kendall
> Simpkins, Shaun
> Simpson, Randy
> Sinclair, Michael
> Sipp, Richard
> Skelly, Brian
> Sletten, Mark
> Sloan, Alex
> Smith, Danny L
> Smith, David
> Smith, Edmond
> Smith, Gene
> Smith, Kirk
> Smith, Lloyd
> Smith, Rodney
> Smith, Ronald
> Smith, Simon
> Snedaker, Robert
> Sobel, Martin
> Solecki, John
> Sorensen, Kent
> Sorensen, Lance
> Spainhower, Craig
> Sparks, Timothy
> Spence, Stephen
> Spencer, Russell
> Springer, Jerry
> Staley, Dick
> Starn, John H. "kabong"
> Stewart, Michael
> Stewart, Paul
> Stewart, Shannon
> Stone, Christopher
> Stout, Randall
> Strawn, David
> Strong, Gary
> Strong, Tom
> Stuart, Clay
> Sutterfield, Stan
> Swaney, Mark
> Swanson, Ronald
> Swartzendruber, David
> Sweeney, Timothy
> Swinford, George
> Szantho, JohnB.
> Szarafinski, Roy
> Szentmiklosi, Mark
> Tarmar, Brian
> Tasker, Richard
> Textor, Jack
> Thesee, Gilles
> Thomas, Bruce
> Thomas, Gummo
> Thomas, Lee
> Thomason, Michael
> Thompson, Scott
> Thomure, Randall
> Thwing, Randy
> Titcomb, Edward
> Tomlin, Thomas
> Tower, John
> Tracy, Roger
> Trainer, Dave
> Trombley, Erich
> Trost, Sebastian
> Trumpfheller, Bob
> Tuton, Beauford
> Twigg, Alan
> Tyler, George
> Unruh, Brian
> Unternaehrer, Rolf
> Utter, Bob
> Van Winkle, Dean
> VanHeeswijk, Jack
> VanHeuveln, Lemar
> VanSchoonhoven, Peter
> Vanartsdalen, Scott
> Vandenbroek, Martin
> Vangrunsven, Stan
> Vaughan, Cye
> Vaughn, John
> Verdev, Victor
> Vervoort-Woestenburg, Jef
> Vincent, Bill
> Vogt, Gary
> VonRuden, Dennis
> Vormbaum, John
> Voss, Richard
> Vranken, Karel
> Wagoner, Richard
> Waldal, Art B.
> Walker, Dale
> Walker, Tommy
> Walker, Weston
> Walrath, Howard
> Walsh, Denis
> Ward, Timothy
> Washburn, Oliver
> Watson, Richard
> Watson, Terrence
> Watters, Daniel
> Weaver, Erich
> Weaver, Fred
> Webb, Randol
> Weber, Edward
> Webster, Tom
> Weese, Brian
> Weiler, Douglas
> Whelan, Thomas
> Whiteley, Kenneth
> Whiteside, Eric
> Whittier, Lavoy (aka Bucky)
> Wigney, John
> Wiley, Robert
> Williams , John
> Williams, Hildred
> Williams, Jeff
> Williams, Lawrence
> Williams, Terry
> Williamson, John
> Willig, Louis
> Wilson, Christopher
> Wilson, Kelly
> Wimmer, Thomas
> Wingard, David
> Winings, James
> Winne, Edward
> Woboril, David
> Wood, Frank
> Wood, Larry
> Woods, Donald
> Woods, Harold
> Wright, Roy
> Wsiaki, Michael
> Wymer, Jerry
> Yager, Jack
> Yamokoski, William
> Young, Rollin
> Zaric, Radomir
> Zheng, Andrew
> Zilik, Gary
> Zinkham, Ralph
> Zollinger, Duane
> Zuniga, Oscar
> ------------------- 2003 List of Contributors #1 -----------------
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Fred,
Were you the pax with Lee?
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Rocket-List: Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
>
> And remember.......This all took place in a Christian Eagle, not a
> Rocket...........
>
>
> On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 12:09 AM, Lee Taylor wrote:
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> >
> >
> >> Lee,
> >>
> >> CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
> >> chance, tell how
> >> you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after loosing 7500' .
> >> (inquiring minds want to know).
> >>
> >> Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
> > experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
> > tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or direction I was
> > spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had failed, (and
> > several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
> > actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
> > have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I verified I was at
> > idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
> > upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized finally in a
> > normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable), and when
> > I
> > recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped out in
> > the
> > desired stable dive.
> > I will say that with the changed CG position, (necessary
> > because
> > the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
> > would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
> >
> > One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems developed
> > because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
> > preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
> > accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a plane that was
> > not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental preparation
> > mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not proper for
> > what
> > the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up planes just
> > won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing what happened
> > here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room sometimes,
> > and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you ever need
> > it.
> > As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one time, then,
> > as
> > some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
> > maneuvers.
> >
> > Lee Taylor
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
no.... Just wanted to be sure anyone starting to read the thread knew
that "the incident" happened in an Eagle and not a Rocket. It was
getting a little carried away.
On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 06:32 AM, C. Rabaut wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>
> Fred,
>
> Were you the pax with Lee?
>
> Chuck
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Rocket-List: Spins in a Christen Eagle/NOT a Rocket
>
>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Fred Weaver
>> <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
>>
>> And remember.......This all took place in a Christian Eagle, not a
>> Rocket...........
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 12:09 AM, Lee Taylor wrote:
>>
>>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lee,
>>>>
>>>> CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
>>>> chance, tell how
>>>> you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after loosing
>>>> 7500' .
>>>> (inquiring minds want to know).
>>>>
>>>> Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
>>> experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
>>> tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or direction I
>>> was
>>> spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had failed,
>>> (and
>>> several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
>>> actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
>>> have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I verified I was
>>> at
>>> idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
>>> upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized finally in
>>> a
>>> normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable), and
>>> when
>>> I
>>> recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped out in
>>> the
>>> desired stable dive.
>>> I will say that with the changed CG position, (necessary
>>> because
>>> the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
>>> would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
>>>
>>> One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems developed
>>> because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
>>> preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
>>> accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a plane that was
>>> not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental
>>> preparation
>>> mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not proper for
>>> what
>>> the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up planes just
>>> won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing what happened
>>> here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room
>>> sometimes,
>>> and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you ever need
>>> it.
>>> As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one time, then,
>>> as
>>> some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
>>> maneuvers.
>>>
>>> Lee Taylor
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Bob & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall@osb.net>
Rocketeers! thanks for all the great input over the last couple of days of
spins and gyro manuvers, I have performed spins both left and right but at
Idle power as I was chicken to do it any other way ! this was part of my
flight test plan, it does get your attention ! thanks again Bob N# 999RM RR
II(AKA HR II)----- Original Message -----
From: <Mlfred@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mlfred@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 12/2/2003 11:14:50 AM Central Standard Time,
> chrissnorris@yahoo.com writes:
> Anyone an expert in spins in the Rocket?
> Contact Ken Fowler at 403-845-3946. I think he'll be able to help --
closest
> to an expert in type I can think of, after John, of course. He did warn me
> about the hammerhead/spin situation -- said it wasn't really what he'd
call fun.
>
> My experience is that it wouldn't really spin (upright) when solo (with
the
> RV4 tail), but all bets are off if you're loaded dual, or inverted. I
would
> expect normal entries and recoveries to apply.
>
> The F1 with the larger V sfcs spins normally, and recovers quickly (same
> heavy nose). Again, testing done solo, and upright.
>
> Expert? Not me...maybe that Gummo fella....I hear he's been there, done
that.
> ;-)
>
> Cheers!
> Mark
> Team Rocket
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Spins/parachutes |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Boyd,
Well, at your request, I reread 91.307 para c and do not see why you
disagree with my post. Can you be more specific. The paragraph doesn't
mention whether or not wearing a parachute has to be a "good idea", it
states you will wear one when performing the listed maneuvers. Please
explain how you interpret this rule so that you don't need to wear one.
Jim
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Braem
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins/parachutes
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Jim--
I suggest you re-read FAR 91.307 (c) (...carrying any person (other
than a crewmember)...).
Some of the airplanes we fly, it's almost impossible to bail out of, so
wearing a 'chute is like a guy wearing a condom and taking his wife's
birth control pills.
That's why a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 is so nice, because you can slide the
canopy back and just step out on the wing--provided, of course that
conditions actually let you do that. Might be a little hard in a flat
spin, which was a recent topic of discussion.
Boyd.
Venice, FL
do not archive
=
==
==
==
==
Message 16
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| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Jim: Re chutes during acro. Frankly, this is a subject that I have
given much thought to, and I gotta tell ya, I consider the idea just
about worthless. The only time that anyone would think about getting
out would be if the airplane actually came apart, and the chances of you
being able to get out with that kind of tumbling/high G's-----the
military didn't go to ejection seats for no good reason. The
justification for the chutes, of course, is that at that point, they
certainly can't hurt. It is just that the possibility of them helping
us is so remote---------More than anything else, like in my case, there
was too much else going on for me to even think about the use of them,
which we did have. I would have waited too long for that kind of
decision. I think that would be the same for almost anyone in those
circumstances.
That is why the military has an absolute 10,000' rule--you
aren't firmly under control by that point, you WILL eject! While I was
in the military, one of our T-33 guys had an engine stoppage at
altitude, and was under complete control, just no engine. He actually
punched out at about 5,000 agl, after trying too long to get a restart.
He was before the commander's desk for a L-O-N-G time, fruitlessly
trying to explain why he waited so long.
Lee Taylor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:45 AM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Lee,
> Because "shit" happens, acro pilots should wear parachutes. In fact,
> they are required by the FARs. Did you at any time wish you had the
> bailout option during the high pucker factor seconds you
> under went? Or
> since then?
> Glad you regained control.
> Jim
> PS. Not sure how difficult it would be to unstrap, unplug,
> blow canopy,
> and get separated from the aircraft in time to pull the
> ripcord. Plenty
> difficult I'll bet.
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lee Taylor
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
>
> > Lee,
> >
> > CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
> > chance, tell how
> > you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after
> loosing 7500' .
> > (inquiring minds want to know).
> >
> > Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
> experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
> tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or direction I was
> spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had failed, (and
> several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
> actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
> have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I verified I was at
> idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
> upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized finally in a
> normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable),
> and when I
> recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped
> out in the
> desired stable dive.
> I will say that with the changed CG position,
> (necessary because
> the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
> would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
>
> One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems developed
> because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
> preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
> accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a plane that was
> not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental
> preparation
> mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not
> proper for what
> the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up planes just
> won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing what happened
> here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room sometimes,
> and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you
> ever need it.
> As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one
> time, then, as
> some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
> maneuvers.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
> > ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
> ===========
> ============
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" <rebibb@comcast.net>
I tend to agree about the chutes being near worthless. Look at what
happened to the Texas Air Aces guy that broke a T-34 the other day.
Neithe4r he nor his passenger could get out even though there were
reportedly at 7,000 when the wing broke or whatever. I have heard of a few
people getting out of planes they did not want to deadstick (like a P-51 a
few years ago) and for that I guess they make sense. I will wear one of
course but don't have a lot of faith in them helping too much....
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Spins/parachutes |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Hall" <tomhall@starband.net>
Does not require chute for pilot, only pax
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins/parachutes
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Boyd,
> Well, at your request, I reread 91.307 para c and do not see why you
> disagree with my post. Can you be more specific. The paragraph doesn't
> mention whether or not wearing a parachute has to be a "good idea", it
> states you will wear one when performing the listed maneuvers. Please
> explain how you interpret this rule so that you don't need to wear one.
> Jim
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Braem
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins/parachutes
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
>
> Jim--
>
> I suggest you re-read FAR 91.307 (c) (...carrying any person (other
> than a crewmember)...).
>
> Some of the airplanes we fly, it's almost impossible to bail out of, so
> wearing a 'chute is like a guy wearing a condom and taking his wife's
> birth control pills.
>
> That's why a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 is so nice, because you can slide the
> canopy back and just step out on the wing--provided, of course that
> conditions actually let you do that. Might be a little hard in a flat
> spin, which was a recent topic of discussion.
>
> Boyd.
> Venice, FL
>
> do not archive
>
>
> > ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Lee,
I couldn't agree with you more. I feel the parachute will come in handy
for in-flight fires that cannot be contained, and out of control flight
due to things like midair collisions, and as we seem to agree on the
slim possibility of success, inability to regain control following a
departure from controlled flight, and of course just plain old
structural failure (Van's RV-8, and more recently a T-34). The
in-flight fire has me most concerned. Just a few years ago, you may
recall the RV-8 guy, forgive me I have forgotten his name, jumped out of
his burning plane with out a parachute. That one instance has persuaded
me to give serious consideration to flying with chutes all the time. It
is a pain I know, but you got to ask yourself, do I feel lucky, every
time you man up. I plan on having custom sized and shaped parachute
packs to fit both seats in my Rocket, unless of course, I spend all my
money on avionics and an MT prop.
One correction, on your reference to the 10,000 foot ejection altitude,
I flew Fighters in the Navy and our rule was Out of control passing 10K-
eject. If you are in a brick glider due to engine failure, it was the
PIC's discretion. Also we often had hard decks at 5K agl and the 10k
rule didn't apply at all because you flew the entire hop below 10k. Well
I think this is enough off topic to put a do not archive on it.
Jim Stone
HRII
Plumbing fuel and oil lines, and trying to figure out how to get heat to
the back seater and front seater's feet at the same time.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Taylor
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Jim: Re chutes during acro. Frankly, this is a subject that I have
given much thought to, and I gotta tell ya, I consider the idea just
about worthless. The only time that anyone would think about getting
out would be if the airplane actually came apart, and the chances of you
being able to get out with that kind of tumbling/high G's-----the
military didn't go to ejection seats for no good reason. The
justification for the chutes, of course, is that at that point, they
certainly can't hurt. It is just that the possibility of them helping
us is so remote---------More than anything else, like in my case, there
was too much else going on for me to even think about the use of them,
which we did have. I would have waited too long for that kind of
decision. I think that would be the same for almost anyone in those
circumstances.
That is why the military has an absolute 10,000' rule--you
aren't firmly under control by that point, you WILL eject! While I was
in the military, one of our T-33 guys had an engine stoppage at
altitude, and was under complete control, just no engine. He actually
punched out at about 5,000 agl, after trying too long to get a restart.
He was before the commander's desk for a L-O-N-G time, fruitlessly
trying to explain why he waited so long.
Lee Taylor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:45 AM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Lee,
> Because "shit" happens, acro pilots should wear parachutes. In fact,
> they are required by the FARs. Did you at any time wish you had the
> bailout option during the high pucker factor seconds you
> under went? Or
> since then?
> Glad you regained control.
> Jim
> PS. Not sure how difficult it would be to unstrap, unplug,
> blow canopy,
> and get separated from the aircraft in time to pull the
> ripcord. Plenty
> difficult I'll bet.
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lee Taylor
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
>
> > Lee,
> >
> > CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
> > chance, tell how
> > you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after
> loosing 7500' .
> > (inquiring minds want to know).
> >
> > Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
> experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
> tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or direction I was
> spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had failed, (and
> several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
> actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
> have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I verified I was at
> idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
> upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized finally in a
> normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable),
> and when I
> recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped
> out in the
> desired stable dive.
> I will say that with the changed CG position,
> (necessary because
> the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
> would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
>
> One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems developed
> because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
> preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
> accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a plane that was
> not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental
> preparation
> mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not
> proper for what
> the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up planes just
> won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing what happened
> here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room sometimes,
> and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you
> ever need it.
> As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one
> time, then, as
> some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
> maneuvers.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
> > ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
> ===========
> ============
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
=
==
==
==
==
Message 20
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| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Richard,
I heard the T-34 wing folded into the cockpit crushing the canopy and
crew. This is second hand so it you hear more about it let me know.
Jim Stone
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Bibb
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" <rebibb@comcast.net>
I tend to agree about the chutes being near worthless. Look at what
happened to the Texas Air Aces guy that broke a T-34 the other day.
Neithe4r he nor his passenger could get out even though there were
reportedly at 7,000 when the wing broke or whatever. I have heard of a
few
people getting out of planes they did not want to deadstick (like a P-51
a
few years ago) and for that I guess they make sense. I will wear one of
course but don't have a lot of faith in them helping too much....
=
==
==
==
==
Message 21
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|
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
I'm about to take the MT propeller plunge ( 3 blade with
counterbalance). Can anyone tell why I shouldn't. Please save me some
money.
I keep hearing about guys not being satisfied with the two blade
Hartzels and end up trading up (at great cost), but great satisfaction.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
Message 22
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| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Those at the scene said one chute was popped and wrapped around the body
evidencing an attempt to get out, alas in vein. Their planes had video
systems but I have not heard yet whether they were turned on, since it was
an upset recovery flight, nor whether they would even be recoverable if they
were as they're not designed to sustain impact like the FDRs & CVRs. I'd
expect preliminary findings relatively quickly as it's high profile. Even
the locals are waiting and aren't speculating.
Greg Young
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 4:22 PM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Richard,
> I heard the T-34 wing folded into the cockpit crushing the
> canopy and crew. This is second hand so it you hear more
> about it let me know. Jim Stone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Richard Bibb
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" <rebibb@comcast.net>
>
> I tend to agree about the chutes being near worthless. Look
> at what happened to the Texas Air Aces guy that broke a T-34
> the other day. Neithe4r he nor his passenger could get out
> even though there were reportedly at 7,000 when the wing
> broke or whatever. I have heard of a few people getting out
> of planes they did not want to deadstick (like a P-51 a few
> years ago) and for that I guess they make sense. I will wear
> one of course but don't have a lot of faith in them helping
> too much....
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Potential Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Steve Gandy" <s.gandy@comcast.net>
Hi Rocket List
Some time back I planned to build a Rocket II, purchased the wing and
empennage kit. I started building the horizontal stabilizer, then got
busy at work and didn't work on it for a couple of years. In 2001 I
lost my medical, and after more than 2 years of fighting with the FAA I
got it back in October, but only for 6 months. It has become very
costly too much trouble to pursue, so I will be applying for the new
Sport Pilot license. The bottom line is, I need to sell my RV-4 wing
and empennage kit. The wing kit is the standard RV-4 wing and is
unopened. The empennage kit is the standard empennage kit with the
heavy skins and the only work that has been done is on the horizontal
stabilizer. The skins are drilled, not dimpled. I want to sell the
wing and empennage kit together and I am asking $4,000 for them. I am
located in Fresno, CA.
Steve Gandy
s.gandy@comcast.net
Aeronca L-3C N48540
Kitfox 6 N540KF (Building)
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Jim and All:
I hope my comments about use of chutes isn't taken wrongly---I
do wear mine at all times whenever I am flying my experimental birds.
My comment was meant to give a little insight into my own experiences,
and thinking. As I said, after much analyzation, and thinking back on
my own out-of-control spin experience, I strongly feel that using the
chute is going to be either an extremely difficult, or virtually
impossible thing to do with the exception of an in-flight fire. That
doesn't mean at all that I think that wearing one is a bad idea.
I kind of liken it to some of my stock market investing. I am
strongly into a company that manufacturers heart attack defibrillators.
Defibrillators are notoriously ineffective simply because they usually
take too long to get to the heart attack patient. HOWEVER, they are the
are dead. Same applies to the chutes.
Lee Taylor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 3:19 PM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Lee,
> I couldn't agree with you more. I feel the parachute will
> come in handy
> for in-flight fires that cannot be contained, and out of
> control flight
> due to things like midair collisions, and as we seem to agree on the
> slim possibility of success, inability to regain control following a
> departure from controlled flight, and of course just plain old
> structural failure (Van's RV-8, and more recently a T-34). The
> in-flight fire has me most concerned. Just a few years ago, you may
> recall the RV-8 guy, forgive me I have forgotten his name,
> jumped out of
> his burning plane with out a parachute. That one instance
> has persuaded
> me to give serious consideration to flying with chutes all
> the time. It
> is a pain I know, but you got to ask yourself, do I feel lucky, every
> time you man up. I plan on having custom sized and shaped parachute
> packs to fit both seats in my Rocket, unless of course, I spend all my
> money on avionics and an MT prop.
> One correction, on your reference to the 10,000 foot ejection
> altitude,
> I flew Fighters in the Navy and our rule was Out of control
> passing 10K-
> eject. If you are in a brick glider due to engine failure, it was the
> PIC's discretion. Also we often had hard decks at 5K agl and the 10k
> rule didn't apply at all because you flew the entire hop
> below 10k. Well
> I think this is enough off topic to put a do not archive on it.
> Jim Stone
> HRII
> Plumbing fuel and oil lines, and trying to figure out how to
> get heat to
> the back seater and front seater's feet at the same time.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lee Taylor
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
> Jim: Re chutes during acro. Frankly, this is a subject that I have
> given much thought to, and I gotta tell ya, I consider the idea just
> about worthless. The only time that anyone would think about getting
> out would be if the airplane actually came apart, and the
> chances of you
> being able to get out with that kind of tumbling/high G's-----the
> military didn't go to ejection seats for no good reason. The
> justification for the chutes, of course, is that at that point, they
> certainly can't hurt. It is just that the possibility of them helping
> us is so remote---------More than anything else, like in my
> case, there
> was too much else going on for me to even think about the use of them,
> which we did have. I would have waited too long for that kind of
> decision. I think that would be the same for almost anyone in those
> circumstances.
> That is why the military has an absolute 10,000' rule--you
> aren't firmly under control by that point, you WILL eject!
> While I was
> in the military, one of our T-33 guys had an engine stoppage at
> altitude, and was under complete control, just no engine. He actually
> punched out at about 5,000 agl, after trying too long to get
> a restart.
> He was before the commander's desk for a L-O-N-G time, fruitlessly
> trying to explain why he waited so long.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of Jim Stone
> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:45 AM
> > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> >
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
> <jrstone@insightbb.com>
> >
> > Lee,
> > Because "shit" happens, acro pilots should wear parachutes.
> In fact,
> > they are required by the FARs. Did you at any time wish you had the
> > bailout option during the high pucker factor seconds you
> > under went? Or
> > since then?
> > Glad you regained control.
> > Jim
> > PS. Not sure how difficult it would be to unstrap, unplug,
> > blow canopy,
> > and get separated from the aircraft in time to pull the
> > ripcord. Plenty
> > difficult I'll bet.
> > Do not archive
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > Lee Taylor
> > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor "
> <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> >
> >
> > > Lee,
> > >
> > > CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
> > > chance, tell how
> > > you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after
> > loosing 7500' .
> > > (inquiring minds want to know).
> > >
> > > Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
> > experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
> > tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or
> direction I was
> > spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had
> failed, (and
> > several others) and I knew that I did not know what condition I was
> > actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the first thing I
> > have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I
> verified I was at
> > idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
> > upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized
> finally in a
> > normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable),
> > and when I
> > recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped
> > out in the
> > desired stable dive.
> > I will say that with the changed CG position,
> > (necessary because
> > the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be set up so he
> > would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
> >
> > One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems
> developed
> > because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
> > preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
> > accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a
> plane that was
> > not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental
> > preparation
> > mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not
> > proper for what
> > the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up
> planes just
> > won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing
> what happened
> > here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room
> sometimes,
> > and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you
> > ever need it.
> > As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one
> > time, then, as
> > some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
> > maneuvers.
> >
> > Lee Taylor
> >
> >
> > > ==
> > ==
> > ==
> > ==
> >
> >
> > ===========
> > ============
> > ============
> > ============
> > ============
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> > ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
> ===========
> ============
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Somehow the last line of my last note got deleted. It was SUPPOSED to
say,
"However, they are the ONLY game in town. Doing without one
Lee Taylor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Lee Taylor
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:52 PM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
>
> Jim and All:
>
> I hope my comments about use of chutes isn't taken wrongly---I
> do wear mine at all times whenever I am flying my experimental birds.
> My comment was meant to give a little insight into my own experiences,
> and thinking. As I said, after much analyzation, and thinking back on
> my own out-of-control spin experience, I strongly feel that using the
> chute is going to be either an extremely difficult, or virtually
> impossible thing to do with the exception of an in-flight fire. That
> doesn't mean at all that I think that wearing one is a bad idea.
> I kind of liken it to some of my stock market investing. I am
> strongly into a company that manufacturers heart attack
> defibrillators.
> Defibrillators are notoriously ineffective simply because they usually
> take too long to get to the heart attack patient. HOWEVER,
> they are the
> are dead. Same applies to the chutes.
>
> Lee Taylor
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of Jim Stone
> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 3:19 PM
> > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> >
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
> <jrstone@insightbb.com>
> >
> > Lee,
> > I couldn't agree with you more. I feel the parachute will
> > come in handy
> > for in-flight fires that cannot be contained, and out of
> > control flight
> > due to things like midair collisions, and as we seem to agree on the
> > slim possibility of success, inability to regain control following a
> > departure from controlled flight, and of course just plain old
> > structural failure (Van's RV-8, and more recently a T-34). The
> > in-flight fire has me most concerned. Just a few years ago, you may
> > recall the RV-8 guy, forgive me I have forgotten his name,
> > jumped out of
> > his burning plane with out a parachute. That one instance
> > has persuaded
> > me to give serious consideration to flying with chutes all
> > the time. It
> > is a pain I know, but you got to ask yourself, do I feel
> lucky, every
> > time you man up. I plan on having custom sized and shaped parachute
> > packs to fit both seats in my Rocket, unless of course, I
> spend all my
> > money on avionics and an MT prop.
> > One correction, on your reference to the 10,000 foot ejection
> > altitude,
> > I flew Fighters in the Navy and our rule was Out of control
> > passing 10K-
> > eject. If you are in a brick glider due to engine failure,
> it was the
> > PIC's discretion. Also we often had hard decks at 5K agl
> and the 10k
> > rule didn't apply at all because you flew the entire hop
> > below 10k. Well
> > I think this is enough off topic to put a do not archive on it.
> > Jim Stone
> > HRII
> > Plumbing fuel and oil lines, and trying to figure out how to
> > get heat to
> > the back seater and front seater's feet at the same time.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > Lee Taylor
> > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> >
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor "
> <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> >
> > Jim: Re chutes during acro. Frankly, this is a subject that I have
> > given much thought to, and I gotta tell ya, I consider the idea just
> > about worthless. The only time that anyone would think
> about getting
> > out would be if the airplane actually came apart, and the
> > chances of you
> > being able to get out with that kind of tumbling/high G's-----the
> > military didn't go to ejection seats for no good reason. The
> > justification for the chutes, of course, is that at that point, they
> > certainly can't hurt. It is just that the possibility of
> them helping
> > us is so remote---------More than anything else, like in my
> > case, there
> > was too much else going on for me to even think about the
> use of them,
> > which we did have. I would have waited too long for that kind of
> > decision. I think that would be the same for almost anyone in those
> > circumstances.
> > That is why the military has an absolute 10,000' rule--you
> > aren't firmly under control by that point, you WILL eject!
> > While I was
> > in the military, one of our T-33 guys had an engine stoppage at
> > altitude, and was under complete control, just no engine.
> He actually
> > punched out at about 5,000 agl, after trying too long to get
> > a restart.
> > He was before the commander's desk for a L-O-N-G time, fruitlessly
> > trying to explain why he waited so long.
> >
> > Lee Taylor
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> > Of Jim Stone
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:45 AM
> > > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > > Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> > >
> > >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
> > <jrstone@insightbb.com>
> > >
> > > Lee,
> > > Because "shit" happens, acro pilots should wear parachutes.
> > In fact,
> > > they are required by the FARs. Did you at any time wish
> you had the
> > > bailout option during the high pucker factor seconds you
> > > under went? Or
> > > since then?
> > > Glad you regained control.
> > > Jim
> > > PS. Not sure how difficult it would be to unstrap, unplug,
> > > blow canopy,
> > > and get separated from the aircraft in time to pull the
> > > ripcord. Plenty
> > > difficult I'll bet.
> > > Do not archive
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > > Lee Taylor
> > > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > > Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> > >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor "
> > <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Lee,
> > > >
> > > > CONGRATULATIONS on getting hitched! When you get a
> > > > chance, tell how
> > > > you recovered from the inverted "semi-flat" spin after
> > > loosing 7500' .
> > > > (inquiring minds want to know).
> > > >
> > > > Chuck: Re recovery. Nothing in my previous training or
> > > experience was working, and as I said, the rotation rate was so
> > > tremendous I literally could not tell what attitude or
> > direction I was
> > > spinning. Finally after all the "correct" techniques had
> > failed, (and
> > > several others) and I knew that I did not know what
> condition I was
> > > actually in, I said to myself, "To hell with this, the
> first thing I
> > > have to do is get into a recognizable situation." I
> > verified I was at
> > > idle throttle, pulled full up, and held full left rudder. (normal
> > > upright spin maintenance controls). The plane stabilized
> > finally in a
> > > normal upright spin, (much slower rotation and recognizable),
> > > and when I
> > > recovered from that, (normally), the plane immediately popped
> > > out in the
> > > desired stable dive.
> > > I will say that with the changed CG position,
> > > (necessary because
> > > the owner was twice my size, and the plane needed to be
> set up so he
> > > would be safe), I never again tried to flat-spin that plane.
> > >
> > > One point. This WAS NOT a flat spin. The problems
> > developed
> > > because IT DID NOT GO FLAT, as expected, and when, (with my mental
> > > preparation), I gave it flat spin recovery techniques, it went
> > > accelerated spin instead. The problem was caused by a
> > plane that was
> > > not correctly set up CG-wise for the maneuver, and a mental
> > > preparation
> > > mindset that applied one recovery technique that was not
> > > proper for what
> > > the plane was actually doing. Normally, correctly set-up
> > planes just
> > > won't do these kinds of things. My point in describing
> > what happened
> > > here is that sometimes, "s--- happens." We NEED fudge room
> > sometimes,
> > > and you only get the chance to have that room ONCE, if you
> > > ever need it.
> > > As I DEFINITELY did. If you don't have the room that one
> > > time, then, as
> > > some of the other guys have said, "SPLAT". Splats are not nice
> > > maneuvers.
> > >
> > > Lee Taylor
> > >
> > >
> > > > ==
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