Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:23 AM - Re: List of Contributors (Fred Weaver)
2. 05:24 AM - Props (Scott Miller)
3. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (Boyd Braem)
4. 05:49 AM - Re: 2 blade (Jim Stone)
5. 06:57 AM - Re: 2 blade (Bob Japundza)
6. 08:39 AM - Re: List of Contributors (C. Rabaut)
7. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Spins in a Harmon Rocket (C. Rabaut)
8. 09:06 AM - Re: 2 blade (Bob & Toodie Marshall)
9. 09:33 AM - Re: Props (rsmith@frontier.net)
10. 10:37 AM - Re:Six pack for Chuck? (Fred Weaver)
11. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Spins/The Raven (Boyd Braem)
12. 01:26 PM - Re: Re:Six pack for Chuck? (C. Rabaut)
13. 01:38 PM - Re: 2 blade (Boyd Braem)
14. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Spins/The Raven (C. Rabaut)
15. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: Spins/The Raven (Boyd Braem)
16. 04:24 PM - Re: 2 blade (Randy Compton)
17. 06:23 PM - Re: 2 blade (u2nelson)
18. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: Spins/The Raven (C. Rabaut)
19. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Spins/The Raven (Fred Weaver)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: List of Contributors |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Hahahahahaha....... I didn't do it Dave BUT I thought it was funny and
appropriate when I saw his post.
Zing, gotcha... That'll teach you to avoid screwin' the pooch!
Weav
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
<David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
>
>
> Did Weaver put you up to this? He told me that if I didn't, I would
> probably splat right in front of you :-)
>
> I'm planning on contributing, I just can't do it from here... No web
> access.
>
> Dave
>
>
> From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-- List of Contributors
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>
> Hey Dave,
>
> Come on man, you're benefiting from this experience too. Time to
> cough
> up a contribution to the cause.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
****************************************************************************
************
>
> Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and
confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible
for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.
>
>
****************************************************************************
************
>
>
Message 2
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Scott Miller" <scott65@quik.com>
I still would like to know more about the Aero-Composites props. With, at best,
a 2 knot difference, the 3 blade is the way to go, over 2 blade. Smoother, and
probably better in take-off and climb, is worth it to me. The 3 blade Hartzell
is out - too heavy. Then, there seems to be only 4 choices of 3 blade composite
props - Hartzell Claw, Whirlwind, MT, and Aero-Composites. The Claw and Whirlwind
are for aerobatics, and have a wide chord design, which I guess aren't
the best for speed, although Piper used it on the Malibu, so maybe it's ok??.
At 25K though, that's out of the question. The Whirlwinds are the same chord
design as the Claw, and is what I will use when I finish my One Design - yes,
I am building both an F-1, and DR-107. That leaves the MT, and Aero-Composite.
I have been on both web sites, and have looked at them at shows and such. I would
just like to know which one is the best for the money. Any feedback would be
greatly appreciated. I like the Aero-Composite the best, but I have no performance
data. They say on their web site that they have sold props for Rocket's,
so I would like to hear from them, and other MT user's. Thank's, Scott Miller
F-1 #123
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Chuck--
Beggs stuff is OK, but remember that each airplane is a unique thing.
You have to play with it and stroke it and fly it to the edges, the
ragged edges--that's where the fun is.
Boyd.
Message 4
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Greg and all,
Well, we just had a major shift back in favor of the MT because of your
post. You seem to agree with Mark F. on the issue. Thanks so much for
taking the time for a detailed response. Your experience will
undoubtedly help many Rocket builders in the future.
I am going to give a little more time to this thread (the weekend)
hoping to hear from a few more MT guys before making the "final
decision".
Jim Stone
Back on the fence
PS. Some guys are contacting me personally and I appreciate that very
much. Sometimes a call is easier than writing a book. Call me and I'll
call you back on my nickel, 502 254-3214.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of u2nelson
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "u2nelson" <u2nelson@prodigy.net>
OK Jim, here is a positive post for the MT.
I had a Hartzell two blade on my Rocket, now I have a 3 blade
MT. The 3
blade MT is a few LBs lighter than the 2 blade Hartzell, but those LBs
are
where you need to reduce the most, way out front of the engine. Here
is a
performance comparison, and this is with some careful flight testing
using
GPS algorithms to eliminate any wind variables, and all points were
repeated
multiple times to gain confidence. 10,000 MSL cruise speeds, 2100 RPM
and
full manifold pressure, about 21.5 inches; Hartzell 203 knots, MT 201
knots. MT may be a tad slower, but not by much, you can easily gain and
loose 3-8 knots just on hot day, cold day. Run the RPM up to 2120 and
I'm
back at 203 so really its a wash. Acceleration on Take off, maybe
slightly
better with the 2 blade, but again on timed climbs to 10K, the time was
with
in seconds of each other and any difference is in how fat is your
pencil.
Deceleration, surprisingly better with the MT, I can now fly a much
steeper
final and landing rolls are shorter with the MT. Must be because the MT
goes flatter.
So why would I part with more bucks and go with the MT. ITS
VERY SMOOTH.
Like an electric motor up there. That two blade would shake you like
crazy
at any RPM between 2150 and 2300 and I used to run around at 2400 RPM to
stay out of it. I could for high altitude cruise, set 2100 as the power
is
low enough to keep the vibration away, but it was still there a bit.
Those
are very usable RPM ranges, power setting wise, but unusable from a
vibration standpoint. It was not a balance issue, it is a power issue,
as I
could take the power off, leave the RPM alone and the vibrations go
away.
What I believe is happening is the fuselage has a natural frequency that
is
coincident with the 2 blade power pulses at 2200 ish RPM. With the 3
blade
you get 1/3 more power pulses, that are 1/3 less strong, so the effect
is no
fuselage interaction with the prop.
201 vs. 203 knots?, do the math, I now arrive about 1 minute later after
flying 1 hour, but I arrive refreshed, not beat up and my airplane is
also
in better shape long term maintenance wise.
Ultimately, both props do the job quite well, but I would have to
recommend
the 3 Blade MT if you have the money.
BTW full grunt top speed also went down a couple with the MT, but those
numbers are classified :)
Greg Nelson
N144X
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Thanks Larry,
Sure would like to hear why.
Jim Stone
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Schneider
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Larry Schneider"
<lschneider39@cox.net>
I am an RV6 guy, But a friend of mine has a HRII. he had a Hartzell 2
blade
and now an MT 3 blade, He loves the MT! Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Well guys, thanks for all the feed back on the 2 blade vs. the 3
blade,
> both on the list and privately. The consensus is, to be brief, for
the
> best bang, best price, minimum maintenance and repair cost, the
Hartzel
> 2 blade stands well above the competition. I would also like to
> mention, not one response to my post encouraged me to go with the 3
> blade MT.
> Anyone know of a good source for a two blade Hartzel and spinner?
> Jim Stone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> f1rocket@telus.net
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: f1rocket@telus.net
>
> I have asked the same question of; Bart (Aero Sport Power), Ken
Fowler
> (you
> know the aerobatics guy) and Eric Hansen (who is considering changing
> his three
> blade Hartzell for a two blade for more speed). They all say go
> lighter, the
> engine is smooth anyway (I guess compared to others?).
> So I'm going to save some money and weight spend the extra (both) on
> avionics.
> Like everything, probably no right answer just lots of opinions.
> Jeff
>
> Quoting "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>:
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A"
> <VFrazier@usi.edu>
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > three-blade, smee-blade.
> >
> > Everyone I've heard has said that the 3 blade is slower but
smoother.
> > Personally, I quit listening after they said slower. I want fast!
> >
> > I've had the good fortune to ride in three different Rockets, all
with
> 2
> > blade Hartzells. If the only difference were smoothness... who
cares?
> All
> > three of the Rockets gave me a great ride and I never once thought
> "Wow, if
> > only it were smoother." Nope, not a factor in my opinion.
> >
> > The 3 blade Hartzell just plain seems too heavy, even though a bit
> cheaper
> > than the MT. And the MT seems WAY out of line for cost , but
really,
> all of
> > them are too expensive to think about. I was more concerned about
> > maintenance costs with the MT. I have heard one third hand horror
> account of
> > an MT maintenance problem draining a wallet for as much as I paid
for
> my new
> > Hartzell.
> >
> > One thought about the MT though... the lighter weight is nice and I
> suppose
> > that it would put less strain on the crank while you're doing
inverted
> flat
> > spins without .... nah, I'll save those comments for the next post.
> >
> > YMMV, I could be wrong.
> >
> > Vince Frazier
> > 1946 Stinson, NC97535, FOR SALE
> > F-1H Rocket, N540VF, Crazy Horse
> > <http://www.usi.edu/science/chemistry/vfrazier/page1.html>
> >
> > SNIP I'm about to take the MT propeller plunge ( 3 blade with
> > counterbalance). Can anyone tell why I shouldn't. Please save me
> some
> > money.
> >
> > I keep hearing about guys not being satisfied with the two blade
> > Hartzels and end up trading up (at great cost), but great
> satisfaction.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jim Stone
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> > ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
=
==
==
==
==
=
==
==
==
==
Message 5
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: Bob Japundza <bjapundza@yahoo.com>
Jim, why don't you just try to get a ride in both and decide for yourself. Would
you buy a car and never test drive it first? IMHO the vibration levels with
the two blade were unobjectionable to me. The three-blade prop was maybe a
little better. Some of the rpm range vibrations are present with the MT. Everybody's
got a different opinion. It could be we've been using the wrong 2-blade
props on the rockets all along. Just my 2 cents. Big reason why I went for
a 2-blade is I bought mine for $1800 with 300 smoh (used).
Regards, Bob
F1 #80, 2-blade
Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com> wrote:
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
Greg and all,
Well, we just had a major shift back in favor of the MT because of your
post. You seem to agree with Mark F. on the issue. Thanks so much for
taking the time for a detailed response. Your experience will
undoubtedly help many Rocket builders in the future.
I am going to give a little more time to this thread (the weekend)
hoping to hear from a few more MT guys before making the "final
decision".
Jim Stone
Back on the fence
PS. Some guys are contacting me personally and I appreciate that very
much. Sometimes a call is easier than writing a book. Call me and I'll
call you back on my nickel, 502 254-3214.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of u2nelson
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "u2nelson"
OK Jim, here is a positive post for the MT.
I had a Hartzell two blade on my Rocket, now I have a 3 blade
MT. The 3
blade MT is a few LBs lighter than the 2 blade Hartzell, but those LBs
are
where you need to reduce the most, way out front of the engine. Here
is a
performance comparison, and this is with some careful flight testing
using
GPS algorithms to eliminate any wind variables, and all points were
repeated
multiple times to gain confidence. 10,000 MSL cruise speeds, 2100 RPM
and
full manifold pressure, about 21.5 inches; Hartzell 203 knots, MT 201
knots. MT may be a tad slower, but not by much, you can easily gain and
loose 3-8 knots just on hot day, cold day. Run the RPM up to 2120 and
I'm
back at 203 so really its a wash. Acceleration on Take off, maybe
slightly
better with the 2 blade, but again on timed climbs to 10K, the time was
with
in seconds of each other and any difference is in how fat is your
pencil.
Deceleration, surprisingly better with the MT, I can now fly a much
steeper
final and landing rolls are shorter with the MT. Must be because the MT
goes flatter.
So why would I part with more bucks and go with the MT. ITS
VERY SMOOTH.
Like an electric motor up there. That two blade would shake you like
crazy
at any RPM between 2150 and 2300 and I used to run around at 2400 RPM to
stay out of it. I could for high altitude cruise, set 2100 as the power
is
low enough to keep the vibration away, but it was still there a bit.
Those
are very usable RPM ranges, power setting wise, but unusable from a
vibration standpoint. It was not a balance issue, it is a power issue,
as I
could take the power off, leave the RPM alone and the vibrations go
away.
What I believe is happening is the fuselage has a natural frequency that
is
coincident with the 2 blade power pulses at 2200 ish RPM. With the 3
blade
you get 1/3 more power pulses, that are 1/3 less strong, so the effect
is no
fuselage interaction with the prop.
201 vs. 203 knots?, do the math, I now arrive about 1 minute later after
flying 1 hour, but I arrive refreshed, not beat up and my airplane is
also
in better shape long term maintenance wise.
Ultimately, both props do the job quite well, but I would have to
recommend
the 3 Blade MT if you have the money.
BTW full grunt top speed also went down a couple with the MT, but those
numbers are classified :)
Greg Nelson
N144X
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
Thanks Larry,
Sure would like to hear why.
Jim Stone
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Schneider
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Larry Schneider"
I am an RV6 guy, But a friend of mine has a HRII. he had a Hartzell 2
blade
and now an MT 3 blade, He loves the MT! Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Stone"
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
>
> Well guys, thanks for all the feed back on the 2 blade vs. the 3
blade,
> both on the list and privately. The consensus is, to be brief, for
the
> best bang, best price, minimum maintenance and repair cost, the
Hartzel
> 2 blade stands well above the competition. I would also like to
> mention, not one response to my post encouraged me to go with the 3
> blade MT.
> Anyone know of a good source for a two blade Hartzel and spinner?
> Jim Stone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> f1rocket@telus.net
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: f1rocket@telus.net
>
> I have asked the same question of; Bart (Aero Sport Power), Ken
Fowler
> (you
> know the aerobatics guy) and Eric Hansen (who is considering changing
> his three
> blade Hartzell for a two blade for more speed). They all say go
> lighter, the
> engine is smooth anyway (I guess compared to others?).
> So I'm going to save some money and weight spend the extra (both) on
> avionics.
> Like everything, probably no right answer just lots of opinions.
> Jeff
>
> Quoting "Frazier, Vincent A" :
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A"
>
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > three-blade, smee-blade.
> >
> > Everyone I've heard has said that the 3 blade is slower but
smoother.
> > Personally, I quit listening after they said slower. I want fast!
> >
> > I've had the good fortune to ride in three different Rockets, all
with
> 2
> > blade Hartzells. If the only difference were smoothness... who
cares?
> All
> > three of the Rockets gave me a great ride and I never once thought
> "Wow, if
> > only it were smoother." Nope, not a factor in my opinion.
> >
> > The 3 blade Hartzell just plain seems too heavy, even though a bit
> cheaper
> > than the MT. And the MT seems WAY out of line for cost , but
really,
> all of
> > them are too expensive to think about. I was more concerned about
> > maintenance costs with the MT. I have heard one third hand horror
> account of
> > an MT maintenance problem draining a wallet for as much as I paid
for
> my new
> > Hartzell.
> >
> > One thought about the MT though... the lighter weight is nice and I
> suppose
> > that it would put less strain on the crank while you're doing
inverted
> flat
> > spins without .... nah, I'll save those comments for the next post.
> >
> > YMMV, I could be wrong.
> >
> > Vince Frazier
> > 1946 Stinson, NC97535, FOR SALE
> > F-1H Rocket, N540VF, Crazy Horse
> >
> >
> > SNIP I'm about to take the MT propeller plunge ( 3 blade with
> > counterbalance). Can anyone tell why I shouldn't. Please save me
> some
> > money.
> >
> > I keep hearing about guys not being satisfied with the two blade
> > Hartzels and end up trading up (at great cost), but great
> satisfaction.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jim Stone
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> > ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
=
==
==
==
==
=
==
==
==
==
---------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: List of Contributors |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
So Weaver... when do I get the 6-pack that you promised?
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
>
> Hahahahahaha....... I didn't do it Dave BUT I thought it was funny and
> appropriate when I saw his post.
> Zing, gotcha... That'll teach you to avoid screwin' the pooch!
> Weav
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
>
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
> <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
> >
> >
> > Did Weaver put you up to this? He told me that if I didn't, I would
> > probably splat right in front of you :-)
> >
> > I'm planning on contributing, I just can't do it from here... No web
> > access.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-- List of Contributors
> >
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> >
> > Hey Dave,
> >
> > Come on man, you're benefiting from this experience too. Time to
> > cough
> > up a contribution to the cause.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> ************
> >
> > Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and
> confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this
> message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible
> for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
> message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.
> >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> ************
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Boyd,
You are right about the edges... but I must learn as I go, If I hope
to play there long. I'm gonna sign-up for some one on one with "The
Raven", he's in my neck o' the woods.
Chuck
ok to archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins in a Harmon Rocket
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
>
> Chuck--
>
> Beggs stuff is OK, but remember that each airplane is a unique thing.
> You have to play with it and stroke it and fly it to the edges, the
> ragged edges--that's where the fun is.
>
> Boyd.
>
>
Message 8
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|
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Bob & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall@osb.net>
Well Boyd , how fast is it ! Is this that super six?
Give it to us straight, what does the A/S indicate at max power, 2350 RPM
and 9500' msl indicated , no temp corrections, Just what's on the gauges ,
thanks for your reply, Bob, RR II
Do not archive Original Message -----
From: "Boyd Braem" <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
>
> Tom--
>
> I know what you're sayiing---but unless some one has a 'plane under
> 1,000 lbs--with more than 350 hp, I rule. Sorry, I don't mean to be
> obnoxious. But, it is one fast-ass airplane.
>
>
Message 9
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: rsmith@frontier.net
You just missed one that I am aware of, the Hoffman composite prop. It is also
German manufactured and seems to be similar to the MT. Steen Aero Lab
www.steenaero.com is a US distributer. I am building a Bearhawk, I hang out on
this list because if I could build another plane it would be a Rocket. I will
have the Bearhawk on floats so I am looking for good low speed thrust. I talked
to Whirlwind and they would sell me their 400 model 3-blade without the
counterweights. I think the Aero-Composite might be the best choice. I have
called them and they seem to be on the leading edge of prop design. Very
knowlegable compared to others I have talked with. They use a nickel alloy
leading edge protection which apparently is nearly bullet proof and very
important for float plane and bush operations. In reality I will probably end
up with a 2-blade Hartzell due to the price of the 3-blade composite props, but
it is not my first choice.
Rod Smith
> I still would like to know more about the Aero-Composites props. With, at
> best, a 2 knot difference, the 3 blade is the way to go, over 2 blade.
> Smoother, and probably better in take-off and climb, is worth it to me. The 3
> blade Hartzell is out - too heavy. Then, there seems to be only 4 choices of
> 3 blade composite props - Hartzell Claw, Whirlwind, MT, and Aero-Composites.
> The Claw and Whirlwind are for aerobatics, and have a wide chord design,
> which I guess aren't the best for speed, although Piper used it on the
> Malibu, so maybe it's ok??. At 25K though, that's out of the question. The
> Whirlwinds are the same chord design as the Claw, and is what I will use when
> I finish my One Design - yes, I am building both an F-1, and DR-107. That
> leaves the MT, and Aero-Composite.
>
> I have been on both web sites, and have looked at them at shows and such. I
> would just like to know which one is the best for the money. Any feedback
> would be greatly appreciated. I like the Aero-Composite the best, but I have
> no performance data. They say on their web site that they have sold props for
> Rocket's, so I would like to hear from them, and other MT user's. Thank's,
> Scott Miller F-1 #123
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re:Six pack for Chuck? |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Looks like you might just live near Coalinga? I'll bring you a sixer the
next time I drop in there. Let's see.....hmmmmm, the last time I flew into
Coalinga, there was a cross wind and it was about 4 years ago.. I guess it's
time to get some Los Banos fuel and waste it on the way down.. BTW, They
should have kept the old airport.....
Greenfield? Isn't a wonderful place?
Weav
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>
> So Weaver... when do I get the 6-pack that you promised?
>
> Chuck
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
>
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver"
<Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Hahahahahaha....... I didn't do it Dave BUT I thought it was funny and
> > appropriate when I saw his post.
> > Zing, gotcha... That'll teach you to avoid screwin' the pooch!
> > Weav
> > do not archive
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
> > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
> >
> >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
> > <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > Did Weaver put you up to this? He told me that if I didn't, I would
> > > probably splat right in front of you :-)
> > >
> > > I'm planning on contributing, I just can't do it from here... No web
> > > access.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > > Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-- List of Contributors
> > >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > >
> > > Hey Dave,
> > >
> > > Come on man, you're benefiting from this experience too. Time to
> > > cough
> > > up a contribution to the cause.
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > ************
> > >
> > > Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and
> > confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this
> > message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
responsible
> > for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby
> > notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> > communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
> > message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > ************
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins/The Raven |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Chuck--
Wayne Handley flew my 'plane for about 2 hours--he really had a good
time--did possibly everything you could do to it without a hammer and
drill, or maybe even a file. I could see him up there spinnin' an'
spinnin' and even did an end-over-end (lomcevak).
With his own plane, the Turbo Raven, he had this neat trick where he
would take off, immediately go into a loop and then land where he had
taken off from--except this one time when the prop stuck in beta on
the down line and he pancaked and cracked a vertabrae or two--but, he's
back up flying, now. Good guy, he used to fly crop dusters and he can
make an airplane turn like you wouldn't believe. Ask him to show you an
"expedited P-turn".
Boyd.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re:Six pack for Chuck? |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Yes we've still got that same cross-wind... and I desperately miss the
old airport.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Rocket-List: Re:Six pack for Chuck?
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
>
> Looks like you might just live near Coalinga? I'll bring you a sixer the
> next time I drop in there. Let's see.....hmmmmm, the last time I flew
into
> Coalinga, there was a cross wind and it was about 4 years ago.. I guess
it's
> time to get some Los Banos fuel and waste it on the way down.. BTW, They
> should have kept the old airport.....
> Greenfield? Isn't a wonderful place?
> Weav
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
>
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> >
> > So Weaver... when do I get the 6-pack that you promised?
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > do not archive
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
> >
> >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver"
> <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> > >
> > > Hahahahahaha....... I didn't do it Dave BUT I thought it was funny
and
> > > appropriate when I saw his post.
> > > Zing, gotcha... That'll teach you to avoid screwin' the pooch!
> > > Weav
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
> > > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
> > > <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Did Weaver put you up to this? He told me that if I didn't, I would
> > > > probably splat right in front of you :-)
> > > >
> > > > I'm planning on contributing, I just can't do it from here... No
web
> > > > access.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > > > Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-- List of Contributors
> > > >
> > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut"
<crabaut@coalinga.com>
> > > >
> > > > Hey Dave,
> > > >
> > > > Come on man, you're benefiting from this experience too. Time
to
> > > > cough
> > > > up a contribution to the cause.
> > > >
> > > > Chuck
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > do not archive
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > > ************
> > > >
> > > > Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged
and
> > > confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this
> > > message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
> responsible
> > > for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby
> > > notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> > > communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> > > communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to
the
> > > message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> > > ************
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
I apologize, but I get 2800 rpm not 2350. GPS ground track speed is
usually between 180 and 220 kts (if I'm trying to conserve fuel at
11,500/10,500) ). I've had it up to 293 mph (+10% for Vd max--in a
shallow dive). Usuall cruise setting up here are 19 MAP and 2100 rpm
(I have a ram air inlet to the Bendix injection box)--that's about 55%
power (170 hp)
Have a nice Christmas.
Boyd.
RV-Super 6
Venice, FL
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins/The Raven |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Boyd,
I know, I know, I know! I (and several other hangglider pilots at
the time) got a ride in his raven (before the turbine). This was a bunch of
years back at Wayne's dirt strip. I was on tow (about 500' up/off the tow
truck) with a pax and here comes Wayne... He was less than 100' off my
right wing durin' a F~CKING LOOP. This was a tandem Instructor Clinic and
my pax was shitting his pants. I calmed the pax down by explaining that
"The Raven" was obviously very skilled and knowledgeable; and that this was
evidenced by the pilot's choice to be slightly down wind of our position so
his wake/rotors/wash/etc... would not get us. That day I watched Wayne do
inside loops, outside loops, inside knife edges, outside knife edges, and
tons of other stuff. I know you're gonna say "Bull Shit", but the next day
(it was a multi-day course) I watched a cute lady land in an Eagle II or
something similar. And Wayne took her up for about an hour. I'm sure I
could probably find the date(s) from my H.G. log books. But anyways, I
swear when I saw Patti Wagstaff on TV a few years later, I said "That was
her.".
Yes, I gonna pay the man the big $$$ and get me learned a thing or
three.
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins/The Raven
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
>
> Chuck--
>
> Wayne Handley flew my 'plane for about 2 hours--he really had a good
> time--did possibly everything you could do to it without a hammer and
> drill, or maybe even a file. I could see him up there spinnin' an'
> spinnin' and even did an end-over-end (lomcevak).
>
> With his own plane, the Turbo Raven, he had this neat trick where he
> would take off, immediately go into a loop and then land where he had
> taken off from--except this one time when the prop stuck in beta on
> the down line and he pancaked and cracked a vertabrae or two--but, he's
> back up flying, now. Good guy, he used to fly crop dusters and he can
> make an airplane turn like you wouldn't believe. Ask him to show you an
> "expedited P-turn".
>
> Boyd.
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins/The Raven |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Chuck--
Patty did fly with Wayne--I think there's a mention of it on her web
site--that's one good lookin' woman--Oh! don't make me think about
her--the terror--the terror.
Wayne is prob. about the best you can get--I mean, he could have a
stroke and die and still fly better than me. But like I said, get him
talkin' about his croppin' days and he'll show you some shit,
that--well, that's what you'll be doing at 5' agl.
Message 16
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman Younie" <rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Norman Younie"
<rv6capt@pacificcoast.net>
>
> Theory says that the fewer the blades the more efficient, one blade being
> the best but then you have a balancing problem.
This is true. We experimented with a single-blade rotor system in my
college aero engineering work. Seemed like it would be a better application
than in an aircraft prop, due to much lower operating rpm of a helo rotor
system. But as we found, it was great in theory, but a real devil in
practice.
Randy Compton
Do Not Archive
Message 17
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "u2nelson" <u2nelson@prodigy.net>
FF at those conditions is 11.8 GPH, 100 ROP. Need to do some work on the
injectors for LOP running, that should reduce FF about 1 GPH. No change in
FF with prop change.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
f1rocket@telus.net
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: f1rocket@telus.net
Greg,
Nice to hear from someone who has run both. Thought Mark F. would have
responded by now, must be out of town.
You wouldn't happen to have any fuel flow numbers from the testing would
you?
Just wondering if maybe with the same fuel flow numbers the props wouldn't
be
closer. Thinking that the two blade making the extra two knots is because
it
is more efficent (at moving the air) but using more fuel to do it.
Jeff
Quoting u2nelson <u2nelson@prodigy.net>:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "u2nelson" <u2nelson@prodigy.net>
>
> OK Jim, here is a positive post for the MT.
>
> I had a Hartzell two blade on my Rocket, now I have a 3 blade MT.
> The 3
> blade MT is a few LBs lighter than the 2 blade Hartzell, but those LBs are
> where you need to reduce the most, way out front of the engine. Here is
a
> performance comparison, and this is with some careful flight testing using
> GPS algorithms to eliminate any wind variables, and all points were
> repeated
> multiple times to gain confidence. 10,000 MSL cruise speeds, 2100 RPM and
> full manifold pressure, about 21.5 inches; Hartzell 203 knots, MT 201
> knots. MT may be a tad slower, but not by much, you can easily gain and
> loose 3-8 knots just on hot day, cold day. Run the RPM up to 2120 and I'm
> back at 203 so really its a wash. Acceleration on Take off, maybe
slightly
> better with the 2 blade, but again on timed climbs to 10K, the time was
> with
> in seconds of each other and any difference is in how fat is your pencil.
> Deceleration, surprisingly better with the MT, I can now fly a much
steeper
> final and landing rolls are shorter with the MT. Must be because the MT
> goes flatter.
>
> So why would I part with more bucks and go with the MT. ITS VERY
> SMOOTH.
> Like an electric motor up there. That two blade would shake you like
crazy
> at any RPM between 2150 and 2300 and I used to run around at 2400 RPM to
> stay out of it. I could for high altitude cruise, set 2100 as the power
is
> low enough to keep the vibration away, but it was still there a bit.
Those
> are very usable RPM ranges, power setting wise, but unusable from a
> vibration standpoint. It was not a balance issue, it is a power issue, as
> I
> could take the power off, leave the RPM alone and the vibrations go away.
> What I believe is happening is the fuselage has a natural frequency that
is
> coincident with the 2 blade power pulses at 2200 ish RPM. With the 3
blade
> you get 1/3 more power pulses, that are 1/3 less strong, so the effect is
> no
> fuselage interaction with the prop.
>
> 201 vs. 203 knots?, do the math, I now arrive about 1 minute later after
> flying 1 hour, but I arrive refreshed, not beat up and my airplane is also
> in better shape long term maintenance wise.
>
> Ultimately, both props do the job quite well, but I would have to
recommend
> the 3 Blade MT if you have the money.
>
> BTW full grunt top speed also went down a couple with the MT, but those
> numbers are classified :)
>
> Greg Nelson
> N144X
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Thanks Larry,
> Sure would like to hear why.
> Jim Stone
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
> Schneider
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Larry Schneider"
> <lschneider39@cox.net>
>
> I am an RV6 guy, But a friend of mine has a HRII. he had a Hartzell 2
> blade
> and now an MT 3 blade, He loves the MT! Larry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
>
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
> >
> > Well guys, thanks for all the feed back on the 2 blade vs. the 3
> blade,
> > both on the list and privately. The consensus is, to be brief, for
> the
> > best bang, best price, minimum maintenance and repair cost, the
> Hartzel
> > 2 blade stands well above the competition. I would also like to
> > mention, not one response to my post encouraged me to go with the 3
> > blade MT.
> > Anyone know of a good source for a two blade Hartzel and spinner?
> > Jim Stone
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > f1rocket@telus.net
> > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
> >
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: f1rocket@telus.net
> >
> > I have asked the same question of; Bart (Aero Sport Power), Ken
> Fowler
> > (you
> > know the aerobatics guy) and Eric Hansen (who is considering changing
> > his three
> > blade Hartzell for a two blade for more speed). They all say go
> > lighter, the
> > engine is smooth anyway (I guess compared to others?).
> > So I'm going to save some money and weight spend the extra (both) on
> > avionics.
> > Like everything, probably no right answer just lots of opinions.
> > Jeff
> >
> > Quoting "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>:
> >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A"
> > <VFrazier@usi.edu>
> > >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > > three-blade, smee-blade.
> > >
> > > Everyone I've heard has said that the 3 blade is slower but
> smoother.
> > > Personally, I quit listening after they said slower. I want fast!
> > >
> > > I've had the good fortune to ride in three different Rockets, all
> with
> > 2
> > > blade Hartzells. If the only difference were smoothness... who
> cares?
> > All
> > > three of the Rockets gave me a great ride and I never once thought
> > "Wow, if
> > > only it were smoother." Nope, not a factor in my opinion.
> > >
> > > The 3 blade Hartzell just plain seems too heavy, even though a bit
> > cheaper
> > > than the MT. And the MT seems WAY out of line for cost , but
> really,
> > all of
> > > them are too expensive to think about. I was more concerned about
> > > maintenance costs with the MT. I have heard one third hand horror
> > account of
> > > an MT maintenance problem draining a wallet for as much as I paid
> for
> > my new
> > > Hartzell.
> > >
> > > One thought about the MT though... the lighter weight is nice and I
> > suppose
> > > that it would put less strain on the crank while you're doing
> inverted
> > flat
> > > spins without .... nah, I'll save those comments for the next post.
> > >
> > > YMMV, I could be wrong.
> > >
> > > Vince Frazier
> > > 1946 Stinson, NC97535, FOR SALE
> > > F-1H Rocket, N540VF, Crazy Horse
> > > <http://www.usi.edu/science/chemistry/vfrazier/page1.html>
> > >
> > > SNIP I'm about to take the MT propeller plunge ( 3 blade with
> > > counterbalance). Can anyone tell why I shouldn't. Please save me
> > some
> > > money.
> > >
> > > I keep hearing about guys not being satisfied with the two blade
> > > Hartzels and end up trading up (at great cost), but great
> > satisfaction.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Jim Stone
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > > ==
> > ==
> > ==
> > ==
> >
> >
>
>
> > ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins/The Raven |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Well, I hope he'll stay at least 50' agl while giving lessons. I don't mind
a few low passes to check my pulse, but prefer to do the real twistin' a bit
higher up. I usually lean towards younger girls, however... that lady
can yank my flaps any time. I think I'll go find her site on Google &
Oooogle her awhile; then I'll go surprise wifey-poo.
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins/The Raven
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
>
> Chuck--
>
> Patty did fly with Wayne--I think there's a mention of it on her web
> site--that's one good lookin' woman--Oh! don't make me think about
> her--the terror--the terror.
>
> Wayne is prob. about the best you can get--I mean, he could have a
> stroke and die and still fly better than me. But like I said, get him
> talkin' about his croppin' days and he'll show you some shit,
> that--well, that's what you'll be doing at 5' agl.
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Spins/The Raven |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Aw, Come on Chuck.... Skip the big bucks deposit and just go out there
blastin' around with some model airplane judges watching you. They will tell
you what you did wrong... And all you have to do is avoid screwing the
pooch.. Oh, then you have to keep from going splat. That Von guy sure has
a way with words eh? Be sure to leave the chute in a hangar somewhere.....
Good to know you were a hang glider pilot too....
Weav
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins/The Raven
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>
> Boyd,
>
> I know, I know, I know! I (and several other hangglider pilots at
> the time) got a ride in his raven (before the turbine). This was a bunch
of
> years back at Wayne's dirt strip. I was on tow (about 500' up/off the
tow
> truck) with a pax and here comes Wayne... He was less than 100' off my
> right wing durin' a F~CKING LOOP. This was a tandem Instructor Clinic
and
> my pax was shitting his pants. I calmed the pax down by explaining that
> "The Raven" was obviously very skilled and knowledgeable; and that this
was
> evidenced by the pilot's choice to be slightly down wind of our position
so
> his wake/rotors/wash/etc... would not get us. That day I watched Wayne
do
> inside loops, outside loops, inside knife edges, outside knife edges, and
> tons of other stuff. I know you're gonna say "Bull Shit", but the next
day
> (it was a multi-day course) I watched a cute lady land in an Eagle II or
> something similar. And Wayne took her up for about an hour. I'm sure I
> could probably find the date(s) from my H.G. log books. But anyways, I
> swear when I saw Patti Wagstaff on TV a few years later, I said "That was
> her.".
>
> Yes, I gonna pay the man the big $$$ and get me learned a thing or
> three.
>
> Chuck
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins/The Raven
>
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
> >
> > Chuck--
> >
> > Wayne Handley flew my 'plane for about 2 hours--he really had a good
> > time--did possibly everything you could do to it without a hammer and
> > drill, or maybe even a file. I could see him up there spinnin' an'
> > spinnin' and even did an end-over-end (lomcevak).
> >
> > With his own plane, the Turbo Raven, he had this neat trick where he
> > would take off, immediately go into a loop and then land where he had
> > taken off from--except this one time when the prop stuck in beta on
> > the down line and he pancaked and cracked a vertabrae or two--but, he's
> > back up flying, now. Good guy, he used to fly crop dusters and he can
> > make an airplane turn like you wouldn't believe. Ask him to show you an
> > "expedited P-turn".
> >
> > Boyd.
> >
> >
>
>
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