Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:11 AM - Re: dead stick F-4 (Boyd Braem)
2. 08:40 AM - Re: 2 blade (Lee Taylor)
3. 09:11 AM - Re: just stuff -Delete now- (C. Rabaut)
4. 09:31 AM - Rocket brakes (Larry E. James)
5. 09:34 AM - Re: dead stick F-4 (C. Rabaut)
6. 12:07 PM - Re: Props 2 versus 3 blade (Scot Stambaugh)
7. 12:15 PM - Re: Props (Scot Stambaugh)
8. 02:35 PM - Six pack for Chuck? (David.vonLinsowe)
9. 03:34 PM - Re: dead stick F-4 (Jim Stone)
10. 03:51 PM - 2 blade (David.vonLinsowe)
11. 03:55 PM - Re: 2 blade (Jim Stone)
12. 04:29 PM - Re: Props 2 versus 3 blade (Jim Stone)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: dead stick F-4 |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Les--
That's the Air Force, for ya--wingman can't even stay in the slot.
When our Navy planes flew into Nellis for Red Flag stuff, the Skipper
had us kissing wingtips, so that we would look "good and
proper"--"tighten it up, guys, we have a reputation to uphold". When
you flew thru the pass from the E, you almost always had turbulence in
the afternoon.
I'm very glad that your problem was intermittent enough to let you get
down. Did you actually get to see all that metal coming out the tail?
The Super Sabre was not exactly known as a glider (I really liked the
grand piano analogy (I started off as a music major and just got a
grand piano (Kawai) to dress up the living room)--I will steal your
piano story for my future stories).
Today has been a very informative day.
Boyd.
do not archive
On Sunday, December 7, 2003, at 04:10 PM, Morocketman@aol.com wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Morocketman@aol.com
>
> Do Not Archive I was thrown back to 1969 when you asked about dead
> stick
> landings in the F-4. Had my old F-100 cruising along at FL310 when my
> wingman
> just passed me. I said, "What the h#%& does he think he is doing?"
> Then I
> noticed that he had deployed his speed brake, and was still passing
> me. About
> that time I said, "What the h#%& is wrong with my Slick and Shiny
> Super Saber?"
> Then engine instruments ever-so-slowly started to unwind, and my
> answer came
> ever-so-slowly to my fuddled brain, you have just FLAMED OUT!
> Fortunately, I
> was very close to a friendly Air Force Base, and arrived directly
> overhead at
> about 20,000 feet. Our Flame Out Landing Procedure was a 360 degree
> circle in
> which the "SLED" was supposed to lose 10,000 ft. (In tests the F-100
> was
> found capable of descending faster than a grand piano with the lid
> strapped shut.)
> In my quick survey of the problem, I realized that I had a practice
> flame out
> pattern in me, to be followed by the real one. Below 15,000' the
> thing was
> supposed to relight anyway. So I tried one at 20,000', and low and
> behold it
> fired up. The wingman then made the comment of the day, suggesting
> that I
> continue the flame out pattern "just in case." Long story short, the
> thing flamed
> out and re-fired four more times accompanied by very bad noises. At
> 2,500'
> on the base leg I announced that another BURP by this J-57, and this
> bird was
> going on alone. I raised the ejection trigger guard on the seat, and
> continued
> to a 230 knot final approach (198 knots would have been normal).
> Landing was
> normal, albeit exciting, a little aero-braking and I got a good chute
> at
> 178knots, then crossed the barrier with 1,500' remaining at about 80
> knots, and
> stopped just before the end of the runway. The engine ran for about 1
> more
> minute, and then puked it's insides out in the de-arm area. I did not
> know they
> had so many turbine blades in there. Cause was center main bearing
> failure.
> One final note, which I DID KNOW all along, the Ram Air Turbine is
> inside the
> intake duct on the Hun, and when you flare, the air stops, the R.A.T.
> stops,
> and you stop controlling the airplane without hydraulic pressure. The
> Dash One
> strictly prohibits engine out landings! Fortunately, mine was running
> when I
> needed it. Thanks for listening to an "old fart fighter pilot"
> reminisce!
> Let's not do anymore dead stick landings, Les Featherston DO NOT
> ARCHIVE
Message 2
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Guys, please be careful with these birds. They are magnificently
capable of doing some absolutely spectacular things, but with the prop
extensions-----and you WILL NOT get A-N-Y warning of a problem--you will
just instantly lose the prop. And I don't think I need to tell any of
you what would happen when the C.G. shifts that radically.
Lee Taylor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 1:04 PM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> Thanks Boyd,
> 4 g's should be enough but I hat to have it as a limit. I pulled 5gs
> once while flying Mark Fredrick's so 4gs will become a limit so to
> speak. I wonder if the J twist has the same limit?
> Jim Stone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Boyd Braem
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
>
> Jim--
>
> Hartzell HC-M2YR-1BF. Blades are F8475D-4 (80"). After having it
> dynamically balanced, it purrs like a kitten. Unfortunately,
> it has a
> 4" prop extension and Hartzell recommends not to exceed 4 Gs or do
> "frequent gyroscopic maneuvers".
>
>
> > ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
> ===========
> ============
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: just stuff -Delete now- |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Boyd,
No I did not give him my chutes. Not that that will stop him. If
he's like his old man, he'll be irresistibly drawn to the sky & the ocean.
When I was about 4, I use to watch "Sky King". I decided to jump off the
swing set in my back yard with an umbrella and a small/folded up crib
mattress pad tied to my waist. Well I jumped... but the umbrella
instantly inverted and I landed hard. BUT it was a great feeling. So, I
assessed the situation... ran back inside, grabbed all the umbrellas I could
find and was running out the back door when my Pop caught me and asked where
I was going with three umbrellas (on that sunny Fla. day). I explained
what had happened, my rational/reasoning and that I was enroute to make
another attempt. Well my Pop blew his stack, I got beat because he could
not believe I broke one umbrella and was now going to "ruin" three more.
Needless to say, with my Pop questioning my sanity, my actions were closely
scrutinized until my parents had time to forget about my first attempt to
take to the air. I won't go into my second attempt a few years later (too
long).
I love both my "Suns" tremendously. My oldest does go flyin' w/ me on
occasions (and has bounced my head off the canopy {instantaneous & long/loud
lecture followed that one}). My youngest has been flyin' with me in
several different a/c, including ultra-lights, but prefers helicopters {oh
God, where did I fail him}. My wife has a strong fear of flying, though
she did hangglide for a year or so. On my last trip to Fla. (in my RV-4)
the plan was to fly out with one Sun and fly back with the other Sun.
However, wifey-poo decided she wanted both Suns to "enjoy" the trip with her
on Am-Trak. That's a whole 'nother story; suffice it to say I left 5 days
after they did & arrived a day before they did.
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins/The Raven
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
>
> Chuck--
>
> And, I assume you gave it to them and we'll get to watch it on of those
> "bad" video shows? Actually, since it's your son, I guess that's a
> "bad" joke. He flies with you in the -4, doesn't he? (He flew with
> you to FL?--near Tallahassee? (your folks?))
>
> Boyd.
>
> do not archive
> On Sunday, December 7, 2003, at 11:46 AM, C. Rabaut wrote:
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
> >
> > Boyd,
> >
> > The more things change, the more they stay the same.... My 11
> > year old
> > & his friends saw something similar on TV (actually paragliders being
> > pulled
> > by a boat) and asked me if they could have my old back-up "throw"
> > chute from
> > one of my H.G. harnesses.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > do not archive
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
> > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: RE: Spins/The Raven
> >
> >
> >> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
> >>
> >> Chuck--
> >>
> >> I'm sorry, I didn't read your post carefully. But, the "tow
> >> truck"--actually, that's how I got my first training jumps in the
> >> Navy--it was so incredibly stupid--but we had to run behind a pick-up
> >> truck out in the boonies untill the 'chute caught enough wind to
> >> inflate and start going up. Then we pulled the D-ring when we thought
> >> we were at 500". The guy in front of me (alphabetically) landed hard
> >> and broke his ankle--so, all these people were rushing over to him as
> >> I
> >> was coming down--what a joyous experience.
> >>
>
>
Message 4
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Larry E. James" <larry@ncproto.com>
Can anyone share their experience with Cleveland vs. Grove brakes and wheel
parts ? Has anyone experienced any differences in:
performance ?
weight ?
quality ?
fit ?
Thanks in advance for your input :-)
Larry E. James Bellevue, WA HR2 fuselage
New Concepts Prototyping and Production
phone 206 633 3111
fax 206 633 3114
larry@ncproto.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: dead stick F-4 |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Hey Les this is one of the good ones...
----- Original Message -----
From: <Morocketman@aol.com>
>
> Do Archive I was thrown back to 1969 when you asked about dead stick
> landings in the F-4. Had my old F-100 cruising along at FL310 when my
wingman
> just passed me. I said, "What the h#%& does he think he is doing?" Then
I
> noticed that he had deployed his speed brake, and was still passing me.
About
> that time I said, "What the h#%& is wrong with my Slick and Shiny Super
Saber?"
> Then engine instruments ever-so-slowly started to unwind, and my answer
came
> ever-so-slowly to my fuddled brain, you have just FLAMED OUT!
Fortunately, I
> was very close to a friendly Air Force Base, and arrived directly overhead
at
> about 20,000 feet. Our Flame Out Landing Procedure was a 360 degree
circle in
> which the "SLED" was supposed to lose 10,000 ft. (In tests the F-100 was
> found capable of descending faster than a grand piano with the lid
strapped shut.)
> In my quick survey of the problem, I realized that I had a practice flame
out
> pattern in me, to be followed by the real one. Below 15,000' the thing
was
> supposed to relight anyway. So I tried one at 20,000', and low and behold
it
> fired up. The wingman then made the comment of the day, suggesting that I
> continue the flame out pattern "just in case." Long story short, the
thing flamed
> out and re-fired four more times accompanied by very bad noises. At
2,500'
> on the base leg I announced that another BURP by this J-57, and this bird
was
> going on alone. I raised the ejection trigger guard on the seat, and
continued
> to a 230 knot final approach (198 knots would have been normal). Landing
was
> normal, albeit exciting, a little aero-braking and I got a good chute at
> 178knots, then crossed the barrier with 1,500' remaining at about 80
knots, and
> stopped just before the end of the runway. The engine ran for about 1
more
> minute, and then puked it's insides out in the de-arm area. I did not
know they
> had so many turbine blades in there. Cause was center main bearing
failure.
> One final note, which I DID KNOW all along, the Ram Air Turbine is inside
the
> intake duct on the Hun, and when you flare, the air stops, the R.A.T.
stops,
> and you stop controlling the airplane without hydraulic pressure. The
Dash One
> strictly prohibits engine out landings! Fortunately, mine was running
when I
> needed it. Thanks for listening to an "old fart fighter pilot" reminisce!
> Let's not do anymore dead stick landings, Les Featherston >
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Props 2 versus 3 blade |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh@qualcomm.com>
I'll let you know in about a 5 weeks. It sure looks good and the spinner
installation was picture perfect.
scot
At 07:10 PM 12/5/2003 -0500, Scott Miller wrote:
>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Scott Miller" <scott65@quik.com>
>
>After looking over the responses on props, I am still confused. My F-1 is
>a ways away from that decision, but I was figuring on the MT 3 blade, or
>Hartzell 2 blade. My question is if anyone has any feedback on the Aero
>-Composites propellers. They seem to be the most expensive prop out there,
>and wonder if they are worth the asking price. Any help would be greatly
>appreciated. Scott Miller F-1 #123
>
>
Message 7
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh@qualcomm.com>
My recommendation would be to call ACS and talk to John. He eats, sleeps
and breaths props and has enormous experience. He will tell you anything
you want to know about the technical comparisons of the MT and ACS
props. Very nice guy.
scot
At 08:24 AM 12/6/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Scott Miller" <scott65@quik.com>
>
>I still would like to know more about the Aero-Composites props. With, at
>best, a 2 knot difference, the 3 blade is the way to go, over 2 blade.
>Smoother, and probably better in take-off and climb, is worth it to me.
>The 3 blade Hartzell is out - too heavy. Then, there seems to be only 4
>choices of 3 blade composite props - Hartzell Claw, Whirlwind, MT, and
>Aero-Composites. The Claw and Whirlwind are for aerobatics, and have a
>wide chord design, which I guess aren't the best for speed, although Piper
>used it on the Malibu, so maybe it's ok??. At 25K though, that's out of
>the question. The Whirlwinds are the same chord design as the Claw, and is
>what I will use when I finish my One Design - yes, I am building both an
>F-1, and DR-107. That leaves the MT, and Aero-Composite.
>
>I have been on both web sites, and have looked at them at shows and such.
>I would just like to know which one is the best for the money. Any
>feedback would be greatly appreciated. I like the Aero-Composite the best,
>but I have no performance data. They say on their web site that they have
>sold props for Rocket's, so I would like to hear from them, and other MT
>user's. Thank's, Scott Miller F-1 #123
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Six pack for Chuck? |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
I knew it!
Dave
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Rocket-List: Re:Six pack for Chuck?
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver"
<Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Looks like you might just live near Coalinga? I'll bring you a sixer
the
next time I drop in there. Let's see.....hmmmmm, the last time I flew
into
Coalinga, there was a cross wind and it was about 4 years ago.. I guess
it's
time to get some Los Banos fuel and waste it on the way down.. BTW,
They
should have kept the old airport.....
Greenfield? Isn't a wonderful place?
Weav
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>
> So Weaver... when do I get the 6-pack that you promised?
>
> Chuck
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
>
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver"
<Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Hahahahahaha....... I didn't do it Dave BUT I thought it was funny
and
> > appropriate when I saw his post.
> > Zing, gotcha... That'll teach you to avoid screwin' the pooch!
> > Weav
> > do not archive
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
> > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Rocket-List: List of Contributors
> >
> >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe"
> > <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > Did Weaver put you up to this? He told me that if I didn't, I
would
> > > probably splat right in front of you :-)
> > >
> > > I'm planning on contributing, I just can't do it from here... No
web
> > > access.
> > >
> > > Dave
****************************************************************************************
Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential
and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the
intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this
message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If
you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.
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Message 9
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Great story Les, by the way, you are not that old and stop complaining
about it, consider the alternative.
Jim Stone
Happy to have survived this long.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Morocketman@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: dead stick F-4
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Morocketman@aol.com
Do Not Archive I was thrown back to 1969 when you asked about dead
stick
landings in the F-4. Had my old F-100 cruising along at FL310 when my
wingman
just passed me. I said, "What the h#%& does he think he is doing?"
Then I
noticed that he had deployed his speed brake, and was still passing me.
About
that time I said, "What the h#%& is wrong with my Slick and Shiny Super
Saber?"
Then engine instruments ever-so-slowly started to unwind, and my answer
came
ever-so-slowly to my fuddled brain, you have just FLAMED OUT!
Fortunately, I
was very close to a friendly Air Force Base, and arrived directly
overhead at
about 20,000 feet. Our Flame Out Landing Procedure was a 360 degree
circle in
which the "SLED" was supposed to lose 10,000 ft. (In tests the F-100
was
found capable of descending faster than a grand piano with the lid
strapped shut.)
In my quick survey of the problem, I realized that I had a practice
flame out
pattern in me, to be followed by the real one. Below 15,000' the thing
was
supposed to relight anyway. So I tried one at 20,000', and low and
behold it
fired up. The wingman then made the comment of the day, suggesting that
I
continue the flame out pattern "just in case." Long story short, the
thing flamed
out and re-fired four more times accompanied by very bad noises. At
2,500'
on the base leg I announced that another BURP by this J-57, and this
bird was
going on alone. I raised the ejection trigger guard on the seat, and
continued
to a 230 knot final approach (198 knots would have been normal).
Landing was
normal, albeit exciting, a little aero-braking and I got a good chute at
178knots, then crossed the barrier with 1,500' remaining at about 80
knots, and
stopped just before the end of the runway. The engine ran for about 1
more
minute, and then puked it's insides out in the de-arm area. I did not
know they
had so many turbine blades in there. Cause was center main bearing
failure.
One final note, which I DID KNOW all along, the Ram Air Turbine is
inside the
intake duct on the Hun, and when you flare, the air stops, the R.A.T.
stops,
and you stop controlling the airplane without hydraulic pressure. The
Dash One
strictly prohibits engine out landings! Fortunately, mine was running
when I
needed it. Thanks for listening to an "old fart fighter pilot"
reminisce!
Let's not do anymore dead stick landings, Les Featherston DO NOT
ARCHIVE
=
==
==
==
==
Message 10
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe@delphi.com>
Jim,
You may want to consider a MT 2 blade. I found the vibration level very
close to their 3 blade.
I just test flew my 6 with the Hartzell "Blended Airfoil" blades today.
Big difference in vibration between it and the 2 or 3 blade MT. I ran
into the vibration at 950 and 2700 rpm, other than that it was smooth.
I also have to say that the Hartzell hasn't been dynamically balanced
yet, but the MTs weren't either.
Dave
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Greg and all,
Well, we just had a major shift back in favor of the MT because of your
post. You seem to agree with Mark F. on the issue. Thanks so much for
taking the time for a detailed response. Your experience will
undoubtedly help many Rocket builders in the future.
I am going to give a little more time to this thread (the weekend)
hoping to hear from a few more MT guys before making the "final
decision".
Jim Stone
Back on the fence
PS. Some guys are contacting me personally and I appreciate that very
much. Sometimes a call is easier than writing a book. Call me and I'll
call you back on my nickel, 502 254-3214.
****************************************************************************************
Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential
and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the
intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this
message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If
you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.
****************************************************************************************
Message 11
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Boyd,
Do you think the MT 3 blade has the same restriction? The blades are so
much lighter, I would think there is less stress on the hub, bolts and
crank.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Braem
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: 2 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Jim--
Hartzell HC-M2YR-1BF. Blades are F8475D-4 (80"). After having it
dynamically balanced, it purrs like a kitten. Unfortunately, it has a
4" prop extension and Hartzell recommends not to exceed 4 Gs or do
"frequent gyroscopic maneuvers".
=
==
==
==
==
Message 12
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| Subject: | Props 2 versus 3 blade |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Have you priced those beauties yet?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Loren
Harmon
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props 2 versus 3 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Loren Harmon"
<landsharmon@tc3net.com>
I am more impressed with the construction of the ACS props than the
MT's, but I haven't seen any performance numbers of one on a rocket to
compare. I will have a composite 3 blade on mine - which one??? Have
you been to their website? www.aerocomposite.com
Loren Harmon
s/n 76
Subject: Rocket-List: Props 2 versus 3 blade
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Scott Miller" <scott65@quik.com>
After looking over the responses on props, I am still confused. My F-1
is a ways away from that decision, but I was figuring on the MT 3 blade,
or Hartzell 2 blade. My question is if anyone has any feedback on the
Aero -Composites propellers. They seem to be the most expensive prop out
there, and wonder if they are worth the asking price. Any help would be
greatly appreciated. Scott Miller F-1 #123
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