Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:18 AM - Re: dead stick landings (LesDrag@aol.com)
2. 11:30 AM - Update: Matronics Internet Connection... (Matt Dralle)
3. 11:43 AM - Re: dead stick landings (Lee Taylor)
4. 12:34 PM - Re: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Boyd Braem)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: dead stick landings |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: LesDrag@aol.com
Hi All,
If anyone wants to plan for an engine out situation, while they are still
building:
The counterweighted blades on a 3 blade MT Propeller for the Rocket costs
$1,000 extra. It also requires a different governor, but the price is the same.
The advantage is that the blades go to full coarse pitch (low RPM) with the
loss of oil pressure.
Jim Ayers
Less Drag Products, Inc. :-)
OEM MT Propeller Distributor
Message 2
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| Subject: | Update: Matronics Internet Connection... |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
First let me apologize for the discontinuity of List service over the last
two days. There is a faulty transmit pair between here and the "B-Box" and
I have been having a heck of a time trying to get the phone company
motivated to fix it. I am now trying to get them to take one of the analog
phone circuits to temporary get the T1 line circuit up. They are
indicating that to repair the existing T1 circuit they must dig up a
cross-connect in the street which will require a Permit from the City! Who
knows how long that will take to complete.
For now, connectivity is intermittent, but working. Email should flow
fine, although web server access may be a little sporadic. I'm working as
hard as I can at getting the situation resolved, but with the holiday and
all, its just been a nightmare.
I will post more information as it becomes available... Again, my
apologies; I thought upgrading to a commercial-grade T1 would elevate my
connectivity issues once and for all...
Wish me luck!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | dead stick landings |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
Tom:
Always the possibility of a governor that is set up differently
than what I am familiar with. My prop will cycle fully at idle on the
ground.
I'd suggest trying it in the air, which was the purpose of the
experiment anyway, what effect you can expect by doing that in the air.
Again, it all is directed toward learning everything we can expect out
of our planes, and what little tricks we can use to make our operations
more versatile. Some of these tricks will work, some will be bad, some
won't have appreciable effect. The whole idea is to learn what does and
what doesn't work, so we can know more about our planes.
This is what I have done for the last 48 years, and with twelve
inflight power failures, and three actual complete off-field landings, I
can tell you that learning in real life IS NOT the place to do it!
I was flying for the Forestry up in Chester, Calif, and had taken one of
my tanker pilots down to the bay area to pick up his dad. Chester is at
5,000' in the Sierras, and coming back at night, we were at 12,000 to
insure mountain clearance until directly over the field. We were both
tired, having flown a fire all day, and then this trip, and when we got
over Chester, we wanted DOWN! Cooled the engine down getting close to
Chester, and when the field lights appeared below, we pulled the power
back, dumped full flaps in the Cessna 180, and put it right at
flap-limit speed. LONG dive out of altitude, and turning base, my
friend who was flying "reduced power". "No, No, a little too far out
for power back." "Remember what I told you about prop drag?" "I
DIDN'T!!" He shouted!
The long dive with full flaps and somewhat low fuel had unported
the tanks, and at midnight, going into a field surrounded by 150' tall
pine trees, and just a little low in the pattern, the engine had quit!
Yanked the prop control all the way out, got rid of all but one
notch of flaps, turned IMMEDIATELY for the end of the runway, and best
glide speed. Diagonally toward the numbers, he "casually" mentioned,
"Remember the trees!" Believe me, I had! I think the wheels had green
smears on them after landing.
We squeeked onto the very end of the pavement, by which time the
fuel had re-reached the engine, which of course started up right away
again without any problem. Taxied to the ramp, got out to clean out our
drawers, and I SWEAR that Dir$%# Rto#$%# 180 was snickering as we
staggered away from it! "Hot-Shot Forestry Pilots, huh?" "Taught them
what a REAL plane is like AGAIN!" Snicker-snicker, I distinctly heard
as we bow-leggedly walked away from it.
I LOVE my plane! I have NEVER had anything so much like a
spriited stallion as the 180. It just WAITS for me to get complacent,
and "GOTCHA!"
The point is that if I hadn't been familiar with the effect of
getting rid of all that prop drag, by pulling to coarse pitch
IMMEDIATELY as soon as we lost power, I wouldn't be writing this right
now. We would not have reached that runway, or cleared the trees.
Lee Taylor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Gummo
> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 3:36 PM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: dead stick landings
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
>
> Lee,
>
> Never thought about that if the prop was turning, there would be oil
> pressure. What about the fact that my prop won't cycle under
> 1800 PRM? I
> guess I should try it after landing one day to see what RPM
> is needed to see
> movement in the prop.
>
> Always enjoy learning something new. Take care have a merry
> holiday season.
>
> Tom Gummo
> Apple Valley, CA
> Harmon Rocket-II
>
> do not archive
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Taylor " <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: dead stick landings
>
>
> > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor "
> <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> >
> > (reply from long-ago message about pulling the prop control
> to coarse
> > after going to idle power--to reduce prop drag.)
> >
> > Tom: Doing this will be effective as long as you have oil
> > pressure, and the oil pressure will be there as long as the prop is
> > rotating, engine running or not.
> > Also, the drag of a flat-pitch prop is only
> effectively there as
> > long as the prop is spinning. If the engine has quit, and the prop
> > stopped, (quite difficult to do as long as you have
> airspeed, unless the
> > engine has seized), then the prop drag is drastically
> reduced anyway,
> > and you will not be worrying about going to coarse pitch then. The
> > prop's drag is only extreme while rotating, from the disk effect.
> > (effectively, while the prop is spinning, you are pushing a
> disk through
> > the air, rather than just the blades.)
> > This situation, by the way, is one reason for
> experimenting with
> > this effect. The drag changes drastically either with a
> coarse-pitch
> > setting, AND with a stopped prop, so we need experience in
> exactly WHAT
> > TO EXPECT from the plane in these situations. Experimenting with
> > changes in the aircraft's performance is a whole lot easier
> learned in
> > practice than in actual instances. To learn these kinds of
> things in
> > real life is "rather challenging."
> > (PS. Just back from the wedding trip from Colorado
> to Florida
> > in my 180. New wife got to experience a "precautionary
> landing" after
> > one cylinder's plugs fouled out completely, and then helped out in a
> > freezing hangar on the last day of the trip AT MIDNIGHT as
> we finished
> > changing out a rather thoroughly cracked cylinder. I think I have a
> > winner on my hands.)
> >
> > Lee Taylor
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> > > [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of Tom Gummo
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 2:56 PM
> > > To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> > > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: dead stick landings
> > >
> > >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo"
> <T.gummo@verizon.net>
> > >
> > > Lee,
> > >
> > > Will this work once the engine quits and there is NO oil pressure?
> > >
> > > Tom Gummo
> > > Apple Valley, CA
> > > Harmon Rocket-II
> > >
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > > http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lee Taylor" <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> > > To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: dead stick landings
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Lee Taylor"
> <leetay1@idcomm.com>
> > > >
> > > > Harry Paine writes:
> > > >
> > > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: Harry Paine
> > > <hpaine@earthlink.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > Okay Okay spins pins F4's smores F100'S Bunions!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Lets hear about rockets and engine out adventures!
> > > > >
> > > > > It is a real eye opener when yoou pull the throttle all
> > > the way back and
> > > > > leave it there till you reach the runway, I challenge all
> > > > > you listers with rockets to try that and see what a
> boat anchor is
> > > like!!
> > > > >
> > > > > 266HP
> > > >
> > > > HArry: (and others)
> > > >
> > > > Want you to try one thing. Do exactly like you said,
> > > establish a good
> > > > power-off glide, and then pull your prop ALL THE WAY BACK
> > > to a coarse
> > > pitch
> > > > setting.
> > > > The plane will take off like a slick banana peel, and
> > > all of a sudden,
> > > > you will have a darned good glider on your hands, rather
> > > than that rock.
> > > > This little exercise will demonstrate just what that prop
> > > does to you
> > > > power-off.
> > > > Another exercise is to determine just where your
> > > zero-thrust point is.
> > > > After establishing a normal power-off glide, come in with
> > > throttle until
> > > you
> > > > can just feel the drag disappear. That is your zero-thrust
> > > point, and is
> > > > handy to know when you are shooting a more critical
> > > approach. Remember
> > > that
> > > > until you GET to that point, the prop is DRAGGING, and you
> > > have to get
> > > > BEYOND that point before the THRUST is effective. If you
> > > are shooting any
> > > > kind of approach that is demanding of thrust/drag
> > > considerations, you
> > > would
> > > > like to be right at this zero-thrust point so that you can
> > > easily and
> > > > quickly reach either power or drag, without any delay.
> > > >
> > > > Lee Taylor
> > > >
> > > > (and this note demonstrates what a stupid nut I am. I am
> > > in the middle
> > > of
> > > > my honeymoon in Florida, and I am writing this!)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ===========
> > > ============
> > > ============
> > > ============
> > > ============
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ============
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
My attitude on this may be slightly skewed because I used to fly planes
with this yellow handle that would make stuff under my butt blow up.
Safety, or maybe, more appropriately "feeling safe", is a very personal
thing. If "I" feel that a BRS would make it "safer" for "me" and thus
increase my flying pleasure/confidence, I would put would one in and
screw you all if you disagree, and vice versa. The PIC decides what
he/she puts in the plane. Just about everything in aviation is a
trade-off--speed, weight, cg, fuel consumption, speed, etc. How often
do you fly? Over what terrain? How main good dead stick sites
available at any given time? Your IFR/partial panel skills? What
altitude do you usually fly at? etc., etc. I don't necessarily like
situations where mechanical/electrical screw-ups are trying to kill me
and I like to think that I act accordingly. Technology is constantly
changing, giving us options that we also need to constantly be
evaluating for "our" situation. I mean, you could still be flying,
lying on your belly and shifting your hips from side-to-side to warp
your wings. I guess that would be separate category for the Mile High
Club--tho, two hips could be better than one, provided the movement
was, uh, ah, synchronized?
But don't chastise, harass or otherwise denigrate a pilot for doing
what he/she does for their own personal safety. You are not Them.
(OK, there are some weird cases where the pilot may have really gone
over the top, nutso, whacko--maybe like putting in a turn-signal lever
to use your position lights as blinkers--but it's still their
decision--they may have to be arrested, later and Baker Acted, but
that's personal responsibility for ya).
Boyd.
I Sincerely hope you all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year!--and, then GET BACK TO WORK, YOU SLACKERS.
do not archive
On Wednesday, December 24, 2003, at 05:38 PM, van Bladeren, Ron wrote:
> You fellas are missing the point. The benefit of the BRS is not
> necessarily
> it's ability to save your butt after you've overstressed the airframe
> but
> it's ability to give you another option to arrive safely on the ground
> when
> you're unable to do so for what ever reason. For example, most weather
> related fatal accidents could have been prevented if the pilot had
> been able
> to say "I give up" and reach forward to pull a red handle allowing him
> one
> last GOOD chance to survive.
> Sender: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "van Bladeren, Ron" <rwv@nwnatural.com>
>
> We've all read countless stories here about pilots who have "iced up
> their
> carb filters", "got stuck VFR on top with no instruments or rating",
> "lost
> oil pressure over rough terrain", "engine failure at night" and on and
> on.....all situations which require superior airmanship in order to
> get back
> on the ground safely. And under these types of high pucker factor
> situations, superior airmanship is quite allusive. Crap happens, and
> if you
> fly long enough, it may happen to you.
>
> Fact of the matter, with the exception of the RV-3 these are all two
> (and
> four) seat aircraft and the responsibility we have as pilot-in-command
> to
> see to it that that person sitting beside or behind us gets safely
> back on
> the ground is paramount. If having that big lump of insurance
> requires me
> to loss 20 pounds of excess gut to do so..... well, sounds like a
> prudent
> thing to do.
>
> Carry on Jeff!
>
> Ron
> RV-8A'er
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Denk [mailto:akroguy@hotmail.com]
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
> Fully agreed. BRS is a total waste of time, money, and useful load.
> I can
> just see it now..."oh don't mind that big lump of stuff back there Mr.
> First
>
> Time RV rider, it's just an EXPLOSIVE parachute that I hope will never
> go
> off when I key the mike or get near a thundershower."
>
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> no stinkin' explosive charged parachutes on my airplane.
>
> do not archive
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:27:56 -0800
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Very few accidents in RVs are such that a ballistic a chute would have
>> helped. I realize that there were a
>> couple structure failures that would have MAYBE saved a pilot but over
>> all you are wasting your time.
>> IMO!!!
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>> Jeff Peltier wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Peltier
>> <jeffpeltier@brsparachutes.com>
>>>
>>> Hello RV owners,
>>> Due to the very high interest exhibited by Vans owners over the
>>> years,
>> we've
>>> currently entered into the design phase regarding the installation
>>> of BRS
>>> ballistic emergency parachute systems to Vans RV-6,-7 and -9. We have
>>> purchased a new fuselage for the purpose of static structural pull
>>> tests,
>>> and may be interested in acquiring other fuselages or parts for the
>> various
>>> tests required of this effort. We are also open to any questions or
>>> comments that you may have regarding parachute installation on Vans
>>> aircraft. Any input will be appreciated. We would really like to
>>> hear
>> from
>>> you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff Peltier
>>> Design Engineer
>>> BRS INC.
>>> (651)457-7491
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