Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - Re: intakes (Fred Weaver)
2. 05:59 AM - Fw: intakes (Dan Checkoway)
3. 06:59 AM - Re: HRII intake questions (John Huft)
4. 04:45 PM - water ingestion (Tom Martin)
5. 08:06 PM - Re: Fw: intakes (HPaine)
6. 10:22 PM - Re: Fw: intakes (arvil@bellsouth.net)
Message 1
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
You're right on Harry.... I removed those screws and made sure the threads
and surrounding areas were super clean. Then I reinstalled them with Red
Locktite to insure they would stay in place. The only hitch is......to
remove them, you have to heat up the assembly some... Then they are still
tough to remove. That's fine with me....
Weav
----- Original Message -----
From: "HPaine" <hpaine@earthlink.net>
Subject: Rocket-List: intakes
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: HPaine <hpaine@earthlink.net>
>
>
> Listers it is a real good idea to saftey wire (.020) the screws that hold
> on the butterfly valve on either johns or airflowperformace intankes.
> Yes you will have to put in new screws with saftey wire holes and yes it
> looks ugly ....but not nealy as ugly as a loose screw that has done custom
> machine work on your engines valves and pistons.
> Harry
> 266HP
>
>
Message 2
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
FYI, here's a response on this topic from Don at Airflow Performance. I
agree with his points and am not going to alter my setup (AFP FM-200 and AFP
alternate/ram air duct).
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Airflow Performance" <airflow2@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Rocket-List: intakes
> Here's our take on putting lock wire on the alternate air duct
> screws. First we have very strict quality standards for assembling our
> fuel controls and components. There are process sheets used to document
> most of the assemblies we do. So if you decide to lock wire the screws on
> the alternate air duct, what about the throttle stop in the duct, what
> about the screws the throttle plate in the fuel control, what about the
> screws holding the venturi recovery on? You see my point. Also what are
> the possibility of the lock wire breaking because of poor installation
> technique? Fatigue from vibration from the air passing by and engine
pulses?
>
> I think good assembly technique and procedure out weigh putting more
> band-aids on the parts.
>
> The choice is yours.
>
> Don Rivera
> Airflow Performance
> 111 Airflow Drive
> Spartanburg, SC 29306
> Phone: 864-576-4512
> Fax: 864-576-0201
> E-Mail: Airflow2@bellsouth.net
>
>
> At 09:27 PM 1/30/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> >Don,
> >
> >Just curious what your thoughts are on this (message below). I've
wondered
> >before about the screws on the valve on the AFP alternate air duct. They
> >appear to have been "loctited" in place and seemed solid to me. But
safety
> >wiring does make sense to completely rule out the possibility of the
engine
> >ingesting them. I haven't safety wired mine but am considering it just
in
> >case.
> >
> >What do you think...if the screws came loose are they light enough to be
> >ingested up the intake pipes, or are they heavy enough that they'd end up
> >just rattling around in the sump? (i.e. horizontal induction
IO-360-A1B6)
> >I haven't heard much about foreign object debris and what size/mass is
big
> >enough to avoid being sucked up the pipes.
> >
> >)_( Dan
> >RV-7 N714D
> >http://www.rvproject.com
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "HPaine" <hpaine@earthlink.net>
> >To: "Boyd C. Braem" <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:40 PM
> >Subject: Rocket-List: intakes
> >
> >
> > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: HPaine <hpaine@earthlink.net>
> > >
> > >
> > > Listers it is a real good idea to saftey wire (.020) the screws that
hold
> > > on the butterfly valve on either johns or airflowperformace intankes.
> > > Yes you will have to put in new screws with saftey wire holes and yes
it
> > > looks ugly ....but not nealy as ugly as a loose screw that has done
custom
> > > machine work on your engines valves and pistons.
> > > Harry
> > > 266HP
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: HRII intake questions |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: John Huft <rv8@lazy8.net>
The Pitts guys have been running without airfilters for years, and they
say to use plastic screen, so if it breaks and is sucked in it won't
hurt anything.
John
Tom Gummo wrote:
>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
>
>I did. At one time, I was looking at putting some leuves (sp?) to help with
>cooling and the one I got at the hardware "aviation department" store had a
>wide screen in it. The mesh is about 1/4 inch square. I just use it to
>protect the injector.
>
>Tom
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Rocket-List: HRII intake questions
>
>
>
>
>>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>>
>>Thanks Tom,
>>Speaking of the marble concern, do you think it wise to put a loose mesh
>>in
>>front of the servo to avoid FOD, or would that screen become FOD due to
>>the
>>high speed air rushing in? I think JH lost a jug when he ingested a nut
>>or
>>bolt thru that opening.
>>Jim
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
>>To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Re: Rocket-List: HRII intake questions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
>>>
>>>Russ and Jim,
>>>I remember asking John about having "anything" roll down the intake and
>>>then
>>>go into the injector. As much as I want every last inch of RAM air going
>>>into the injector, I have about a 0.5 inch gap between the intake and the
>>>"Y" valve. Therefore, any water doesn't make into the injector. Maybe
>>>this
>>>is the reason, I have the slowest Rocket.
>>>
>>>Water isn't the only issue here. What about a kid with a marble who just
>>>happens to roll it in there while you are not watching? etc. etc.
>>>
>>>Remember, I am a pilot and not a builder. :-)
>>>
>>>Tom Gummo
>>>Apple Valley, CA
>>>Harmon Rocket-II
>>>
>>>http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>>>To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: Re: Rocket-List: HRII intake questions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>>>>
>>>>Ok HRII builders, this message was posted almost a week ago and has had
>>>>no
>>>>response. Russ has some great questions here, is there no help out
>>>>there?
>>>>Jim Stone
>>>>HRII
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Wernerworld" <russ@wernerworld.com>
>>>>To: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
>>>>Subject: Rocket-List: HRII intake questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Wernerworld" <russ@wernerworld.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>I have noticed that when you run water over the cowl, it works it's way
>>>>>down, into the intake snorkel, along the top (ceiling) of that until it
>>>>>ends
>>>>>and then drips down. The angle of the airplane on the ground lands
>>>>>these
>>>>>drips right into the intake Y valve that is on the front of the
>>>>>injector.
>>>>>
>>>>>Concerns here:
>>>>>
>>>>>How does the water get out of the injection/elbow?
>>>>>
>>>>>Would a sniffle valve be a solution and if so, how should it be
>>>>>installed?
>>>>>
>>>>>If this water were to freeze it could be a big problem. Best to plug
>>>>>the
>>>>>intake if parked outside. How best to plug that?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Another thing that is bugging me. In the interest of getting maximum
>>>>>cooling through the cylinder fins, it would seem that you would not
>>>>>want
>>>>>any
>>>>>ram intake air to not go into the intake. It seems to me that the Y
>>>>>valve,
>>>>>when open, allows some of the ram pressure to go out the filter into
>>>>>the
>>>>>lower cowl. Also, any intake leak between the Y valve and the inlet
>>>>>snorkel
>>>>>in the cowl would also allow high pressure in the lower cowl. This is
>>>>>a
>>>>>hard spot to seal well without access. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>>
>>>>>Russ HRII
>>>>>Park City, UT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Martin" <fairlea@execulink.com>
Rocketers
It is nice to see this list active again. I have been thinking
about Russ Werner's question last week regarding water ingestion in the ram
air inlet. I asked a high time pilot if he had ever experienced a problem
flying in the rain with engine operation and he said that surprisingly no,
and that he had flown in very heavy rain conditions. Now this was in various
commercial aircraft but all of them would have had piston engines and many
would have been Lycomings. Water is a by product of combustion and the
engine temps must be enough to vaporize the ingested water. I would be
interested to hear from any other commercial pilots out there regarding
their experiences.
My HRII has the forward facing injector with the Y valve that
provides filtered air from the cowling. In rain conditions I would
certainly close the ram air door and run the filtered air. This would limit
water intake. I do not as a rule fly in rain of any intensity as I am a
chicken shit VFR pilot. I have left an opening at the bottom of the joint
between the ram air inlet and the Y valve. This would let most of the rain
and wash water out that would get in when the plane is on the ground. I
realize that this does add some high pressure air to the lower pressure
cowling area but this is one of those comprimise situations. Usually when
my plane is parked outside at air shows I shove a foam plug into the air
intake and the cooling air intakes. This keeps almost all the moisture and
dust from getting into the engine.
The real problem here with collected water is a potential
condition called hydraulic lock. If there was a lot of water lying in the
injector and elbow and you tried to start the engine it might be enough to
cause a piston to stop rather suddenly if all that water was sucked into one
cylinder. I had this happen to a tractor once and it required a new head,
ouch! Airflow performance can supply a little valve that goes into the
elbow aft of the throttle body. This valve works to let some of the
collected fuel out of the engine after shut down and I suppose it would
probably let some collected water out. I have not found the need to install
this valve on my Lycoming with the bendix throttle body.
Tom Martin
Fairlea Field
Message 5
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: HPaine <hpaine@earthlink.net>
At 05:58 AM 1/31/05 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Gee
Will Mr rivera pay for an engine overhaul if one of his screws comes
loose?? Come on guys
a properly installed saftied screw won't come loose. At least in 30 years
I've never seen it happen.
Hmmm $1.00 worth of screws and saftey wire. $2,000-$10,000.00 engine
overhaul if your lucky enough to get
the sucker safely on the ground with you and the plane in one piece.
I don't give a rats @#$%
&*( what anyone says) I know from my experience
that an unsaftied screw can and will come loose.
Contact me offline and I'll tell you how I really feel
Harry Paine
266HP
>FYI, here's a response on this topic from Don at Airflow Performance. I
>agree with his points and am not going to alter my setup (AFP FM-200 and AFP
>alternate/ram air duct).
>
>)_( Dan
>RV-7 N714D
>http://www.rvproject.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Airflow Performance" <airflow2@bellsouth.net>
>To: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>Subject: Re: Fw: Rocket-List: intakes
>
>
> > Here's our take on putting lock wire on the alternate air duct
> > screws. First we have very strict quality standards for assembling our
> > fuel controls and components. There are process sheets used to document
> > most of the assemblies we do. So if you decide to lock wire the screws on
> > the alternate air duct, what about the throttle stop in the duct, what
> > about the screws the throttle plate in the fuel control, what about the
> > screws holding the venturi recovery on? You see my point. Also what are
> > the possibility of the lock wire breaking because of poor installation
> > technique? Fatigue from vibration from the air passing by and engine
>pulses?
> >
> > I think good assembly technique and procedure out weigh putting more
> > band-aids on the parts.
> >
> > The choice is yours.
> >
> > Don Rivera
> > Airflow Performance
> > 111 Airflow Drive
> > Spartanburg, SC 29306
> > Phone: 864-576-4512
> > Fax: 864-576-0201
> > E-Mail: Airflow2@bellsouth.net
> >
> >
> > At 09:27 PM 1/30/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> > >Don,
> > >
> > >Just curious what your thoughts are on this (message below). I've
>wondered
> > >before about the screws on the valve on the AFP alternate air duct. They
> > >appear to have been "loctited" in place and seemed solid to me. But
>safety
> > >wiring does make sense to completely rule out the possibility of the
>engine
> > >ingesting them. I haven't safety wired mine but am considering it just
>in
> > >case.
> > >
> > >What do you think...if the screws came loose are they light enough to be
> > >ingested up the intake pipes, or are they heavy enough that they'd end up
> > >just rattling around in the sump? (i.e. horizontal induction
>IO-360-A1B6)
> > >I haven't heard much about foreign object debris and what size/mass is
>big
> > >enough to avoid being sucked up the pipes.
> > >
> > >)_( Dan
> > >RV-7 N714D
> > >http://www.rvproject.com
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "HPaine" <hpaine@earthlink.net>
> > >To: "Boyd C. Braem" <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > >Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:40 PM
> > >Subject: Rocket-List: intakes
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: HPaine <hpaine@earthlink.net>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Listers it is a real good idea to saftey wire (.020) the screws that
>hold
> > > > on the butterfly valve on either johns or airflowperformace intankes.
> > > > Yes you will have to put in new screws with saftey wire holes and yes
>it
> > > > looks ugly ....but not nealy as ugly as a loose screw that has done
>custom
> > > > machine work on your engines valves and pistons.
> > > > Harry
> > > > 266HP
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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--> Rocket-List message posted by: arvil@bellsouth.net
On large screw or bolts that don't have retaining nuts or fit in a blind hole
.032 safty wire may well be appropert for some applications, but on 10-32 or
smaller screws I perfer to use lock tight, if I feel the screw needs to be
restrained or there is a chance it could come out' another way is to stake the
screw with a punch if the screw dosen't need to be removed such as throttle
plates
Nut plates are another good choice in blind applications
Arvil Porter
HPaine wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: HPaine <hpaine@earthlink.net>
>
> At 05:58 AM 1/31/05 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> Gee
>
> Will Mr rivera pay for an engine overhaul if one of his screws comes
> loose?? Come on guys
> a properly installed saftied screw won't come loose. At least in 30 years
> I've never seen it happen.
> Hmmm $1.00 worth of screws and saftey wire. $2,000-$10,000.00 engine
> overhaul if your lucky enough to get
> the sucker safely on the ground with you and the plane in one piece.
>
> I don't give a rats @#$%
> &*( what anyone says) I know from my experience
> that an unsaftied screw can and will come loose.
>
> Contact me offline and I'll tell you how I really feel
> Harry Paine
> 266HP
>
> >FYI, here's a response on this topic from Don at Airflow Performance. I
> >agree with his points and am not going to alter my setup (AFP FM-200 and AFP
> >alternate/ram air duct).
> >
> >)_( Dan
> >RV-7 N714D
> >http://www.rvproject.com
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Airflow Performance" <airflow2@bellsouth.net>
> >To: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> >Subject: Re: Fw: Rocket-List: intakes
> >
> >
> > > Here's our take on putting lock wire on the alternate air duct
> > > screws. First we have very strict quality standards for assembling our
> > > fuel controls and components. There are process sheets used to document
> > > most of the assemblies we do. So if you decide to lock wire the screws on
> > > the alternate air duct, what about the throttle stop in the duct, what
> > > about the screws the throttle plate in the fuel control, what about the
> > > screws holding the venturi recovery on? You see my point. Also what are
> > > the possibility of the lock wire breaking because of poor installation
> > > technique? Fatigue from vibration from the air passing by and engine
> >pulses?
> > >
> > > I think good assembly technique and procedure out weigh putting more
> > > band-aids on the parts.
> > >
> > > The choice is yours.
> > >
> > > Don Rivera
> > > Airflow Performance
> > > 111 Airflow Drive
> > > Spartanburg, SC 29306
> > > Phone: 864-576-4512
> > > Fax: 864-576-0201
> > > E-Mail: Airflow2@bellsouth.net
> > >
> > >
> > > At 09:27 PM 1/30/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> > > >Don,
> > > >
> > > >Just curious what your thoughts are on this (message below). I've
> >wondered
> > > >before about the screws on the valve on the AFP alternate air duct. They
> > > >appear to have been "loctited" in place and seemed solid to me. But
> >safety
> > > >wiring does make sense to completely rule out the possibility of the
> >engine
> > > >ingesting them. I haven't safety wired mine but am considering it just
> >in
> > > >case.
> > > >
> > > >What do you think...if the screws came loose are they light enough to be
> > > >ingested up the intake pipes, or are they heavy enough that they'd end up
> > > >just rattling around in the sump? (i.e. horizontal induction
> >IO-360-A1B6)
> > > >I haven't heard much about foreign object debris and what size/mass is
> >big
> > > >enough to avoid being sucked up the pipes.
> > > >
> > > >)_( Dan
> > > >RV-7 N714D
> > > >http://www.rvproject.com
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "HPaine" <hpaine@earthlink.net>
> > > >To: "Boyd C. Braem" <rocket-list@matronics.com>
> > > >Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:40 PM
> > > >Subject: Rocket-List: intakes
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: HPaine <hpaine@earthlink.net>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Listers it is a real good idea to saftey wire (.020) the screws that
> >hold
> > > > > on the butterfly valve on either johns or airflowperformace intankes.
> > > > > Yes you will have to put in new screws with saftey wire holes and yes
> >it
> > > > > looks ugly ....but not nealy as ugly as a loose screw that has done
> >custom
> > > > > machine work on your engines valves and pistons.
> > > > > Harry
> > > > > 266HP
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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