---------------------------------------------------------- Rocket-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/21/05: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:20 AM - Re: Props and vibration (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 2. 04:04 AM - Re: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? (JOHN STARN) 3. 05:50 AM - Re: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? (A1AVIATON@aol.com) 4. 05:53 AM - Re: Props and vibration (A1AVIATON@aol.com) 5. 05:56 AM - Re: Rocket-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 10/20/05 (Mark Frederick) 6. 06:28 AM - Re: Props and vibration (blairclan) 7. 06:39 AM - Re: Props and vibration (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 8. 06:41 AM - Re: Props and vibration (Tom Martin) 9. 07:09 AM - Re: Props and vibration (Ken Sebok) 10. 08:46 AM - Re: MT vs rain (LesDrag@aol.com) 11. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 10/20/05 (nico css) 12. 03:26 PM - Re: Props and vibration (blairclan) 13. 09:59 PM - Inverted and tire pressures (f1rocket@telus.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Yes those are the ones on the RV-10. I am hopeful but skeptical as usual. I did receive a post from les on the phenolic blocks also. Crossing my fingers. Hopefully the isolators are not too difficult to put in. I have not done one with the engine already mounted. Thanks for all the info. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob J Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: Bob J Hi Mike, I hope that works out for you. Let us know. I hung my engine with the aerobatic mounts Van's sells, but don't have the Barry numbers handy, and don't know yet how well they'll work. FWIW I have the liquid-filled Lord mounts on my RV-6, and its very smooth. They came off a PA-28-201 (t-tailed arrow) with very low time after a prop strike (read: free). So an appropriate mount for the 540 with better dampening characteristics might be 80-90% as good as going the sledge hammer route with an MT (which we all know is very smooth, but costly.) Out of curiosity, are the J-3804-20's used on the RV-10? An interesting tidbit I got a while back from Les at Hartzell was that a few years ago before his time there they did a vibration survey on a Cessna and found that bolting the engine solid to the mount with phenolic isolators eliminated the vibration that they were trying to get rid of, but for obvious reasons that wasn't a permanent fix. So along this line of thought was why I went with the aerobatic isolators. It may work, it may be rough. Who knows. EXPERIMENTAL <-- 2" high letters. Regards, Bob Japundza F1 #80 On 10/20/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" < > mstewart@iss.net> > > Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up > with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have > the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine > mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are > not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally > designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for > the hanging moment of a 540. > So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me > from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord > J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the > results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced > that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in > such things. > > Best > Mike > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:34 AM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? --> Rocket-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" As an ole Weasel once was once quoted as saying "YGBSM" on the first question ( just how pregnant are you ?? ) and there are 5,486 places to look up for GERD MUEHLBAUER on the web. He "is" MT Propeller, among other things. Do Not Archive KABONG 8*) ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? > --> Rocket-List message posted by: A1AVIATON@aol.com > > HOW WELL DID THEY PASS, AND WHO IS GERD MUEHLBAUER, MIKE ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:19 AM PST US From: A1AVIATON@aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? --> Rocket-List message posted by: A1AVIATON@aol.com I WILL KEEP MY AMERICAN HARTZELL, MADE IN AMERICA, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR JUNK. MIKE ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:34 AM PST US From: A1AVIATON@aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: A1AVIATON@aol.com SUPPORT THE ENGINE, CHANGE ONE AT A TIME, SOMEWERE IN VANS NEWS LETTER'S IT TOLD YOU HOW TO CHANGE THEM, I WOULD WONDER WHAT THE DIFF. IS FROM THE J9613-12 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:13 AM PST US From: Mark Frederick Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 10/20/05 --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mark Frederick Hey Mike: I have a copy of that video -- scary indeed. The blade was intact after getting hit with a softball sized ice ball on its leading edge: and airplane that sustained such a hit would have kept flyinig. An amazing amount of flexing went on -- I would not have believed it could be possible had I not seen it! Gerd Muhlbauer owns MT propeller. My dealings with him and his company have been top notch. In all fairness, the Hartzell boys are good to work with too. I talked with a Hartzell rep at Reno, and he wanted one of the Rocket boys to volunteer to test a new hub with different indexing of the blades -- I'll bet this offer is still open to any individual who wants to participate. My experience with the 2 blade Hartzells shows that a somewhat thinner chord blade does not shake like the wide chord units do. I have no data on speed regardinig this or that blade. Carry on! Mark > > > ________________________________ Message 14 > ____________________________________ > > > Time: 10:16:06 PM PST US > From: A1AVIATON@aol.com > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: A1AVIATON@aol.com > > HOW WELL DID THEY PASS, AND WHO IS GERD MUEHLBAUER, MIKE > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:07 AM PST US From: "blairclan" Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "blairclan" Tom, Is there any difference in vibration between a Hartzell and an MT 3 blader? Thanks Tony Blair -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Martin" I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Tony you must have been asleep for the other 30 messages in the last 3 days on the topic. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of blairclan Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "blairclan" Tom, Is there any difference in vibration between a Hartzell and an MT 3 blader? Thanks Tony Blair -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Martin" I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:52 AM PST US From: "Tom Martin" Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Martin" The three blade Hartzell and the three blade MT are both very smooth. I forget the price difference but I think they are close. The metal Hartzell has more flywheel effect due to the extra weight. It is at least 22lbs heavier than the MT and in a place where we already are a bit nose heavy. The three blade Hartzell will work on a F1 due to the main wheel placement but it would not have fit on my HRII as the tail wheel weight would have gotten too light for operation from my grass strip. How could any one not like the fact that we have more choices now than we did five years ago? The competition from foreign junk has apparently gotten the attention of Hartzell. Perhaps they will now fix their superior product. Tom Martin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of blairclan Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "blairclan" Tom, Is there any difference in vibration between a Hartzell and an MT 3 blader? Thanks Tony Blair -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Martin" I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:50 AM PST US From: Ken Sebok Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: Ken Sebok I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, but the Hartzell 3 blade has a 4.1g limitation, a limit not found on the MT. I originally purchased the Hartzell for my F-1, prior to learning of the G limit. Ended up selling the prop and replacing it with the MT 3 blade. I can't comment on experience re: vibration from one to the other, as the switch was made prior to first flight, but can corroborate others' comments that the MT is very smooth. That all being said, I rarely pull more than 3.5gs (and do aerobatics every flight) but have seen about 4.5 on a particularly spirited dogfight mission. If anyone needs further info on the Hartzell G limit, let me know. I spoke at length with an engineer at Hartzell, who sent me some detailed reports supporting the limitation. Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:51 AM PST US From: LesDrag@aol.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: MT vs rain --> Rocket-List message posted by: LesDrag@aol.com Hi Jeff, Just for basic information, the Stainless Steel leading edge sheath on the MT propellers is 3 times more resistant to rain and sand erosion than aluminum. Which you have had an opportunity to observe. When the MT propeller blades are overhauled, they will be returned looking like new blades. And there is no life limit on MT propeller blades. I understand that Hartzell blades can be overhauled a maximum of three times. So, for those that are buying the used Hartzell propellers at a very good price, be careful of what your are buying. The MT propeller blade can loose up to 15% off of the tip, and still be repaired to the original length. However, all repair to the wood core of the blades has to be accomplished at the factory, since they are the only certified repair facility. Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 10/20/2005 10:12:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, f1rocket@telus.net writes: --> Rocket-List message posted by: f1rocket@telus.net OK so maybe I'm biased as I have laid my money out and have a three blade MT hanging on the front of my ship but... We (our company) has been operating a DO 328 with two six blade MTs on it. All types of IFR conditions, and sand erosion (desert) conditions, and the blades are holding up far better than on our King Air 350 (erosion being the main difference). I think after seeing what our props have gone though in the last 1000 hours, it is a good indication that I should have no problem on my Rocket. OK yes our props cost more than most of us have into the Rockets, but never the less, the basic construction is the same for the MT props. No the MT doesn't look new after 1000 hours, but not many props do. Regards, Jeff ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:52 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 10/20/05 --> Rocket-List message posted by: "nico css" Any chance we can get access to the video too? Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Frederick" Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 10/20/05 > --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mark Frederick > > Hey Mike: > > I have a copy of that video -- scary indeed. The blade was intact after > getting hit with a softball sized ice ball on its leading edge: and airplane > that sustained such a hit would have kept flyinig. An amazing amount of > flexing went on -- I would not have believed it could be possible had I not > seen it! > > Gerd Muhlbauer owns MT propeller. My dealings with him and his company have > been top notch. In all fairness, the Hartzell boys are good to work with > too. > > I talked with a Hartzell rep at Reno, and he wanted one of the Rocket boys > to volunteer to test a new hub with different indexing of the blades -- I'll > bet this offer is still open to any individual who wants to participate. > > My experience with the 2 blade Hartzells shows that a somewhat thinner chord > blade does not shake like the wide chord units do. I have no data on speed > regardinig this or that blade. > > Carry on! > Mark > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 > > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 10:16:06 PM PST US > > From: A1AVIATON@aol.com > > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hartzell Props vs ????????????? > > > > --> Rocket-List message posted by: A1AVIATON@aol.com > > > > HOW WELL DID THEY PASS, AND WHO IS GERD MUEHLBAUER, MIKE > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:07 PM PST US From: "blairclan" Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "blairclan" Mike, What's with the attitude... Tom has Rocket experience with both Hartz. and MT 3 blade props on a Rocket (and the 2 blade). I don't recall anyone comparing the difference between the 3 bladers until now. (Tom and others, thanks for the response) Tony Blair -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Tony you must have been asleep for the other 30 messages in the last 3 days on the topic. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of blairclan Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "blairclan" Tom, Is there any difference in vibration between a Hartzell and an MT 3 blader? Thanks Tony Blair -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Tom Martin" I have 800 hours in five different rockets, all using van's standard isolators. The thumping went away with a metal three blade Hartzell and a three blade MT. Also I have NEVER had any engine sag that other builders report. These were the mounts that John Harmon recommended on my first HRII and they work for me. Tom Martin EVO ONE on the way -----Original Message----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: Rocket-List: Props and vibration --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Thought I would follow up that thanks to Japundza(sp) that hooked me up with a Hartzell prop guy who has figured out that I may(read do) have the wrong isolators on my engine. I ordered from Vans their std engine mount isolators thinking they were all created equal. Turns out they are not. Duh. And the el cheapos that I got from Vans were originally designed for 0-320, then used for the 360's but were never designed for the hanging moment of a 540. So in an effort of Hartzell trying to keep me from buying an MT, and me from spending 10k, I have ordered the proper iso mounts for a 540. Lord J-3804-20 is the proper ones and I have a set enroute. I will report the results from my unscientific testing of how it feels. I am not convinced that these iso mounts are all that different but I am not schooled in such things. Best Mike ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:35 PM PST US From: f1rocket@telus.net Subject: Rocket-List: Inverted and tire pressures --> Rocket-List message posted by: f1rocket@telus.net Just making up placards and POH. Tire pressure - 35 psi. It that working well for everyone? Inverted tank - LEFT is that correct? I'm sure I read it somewhere, but after re-reading the manual it doesn't jump out at me. Thanks everyone. Jeff