Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:49 AM - hartzell 2 blade vibes (Frazier, Vincent A)
2. 07:24 AM - Sum up the vibration issue for me (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
3. 08:12 AM - Re: Rocket-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 10/25/05 (Bob & Toodie Marshall)
4. 08:42 AM - Re: hartzell 2 blade vibes (John Huft)
5. 08:49 AM - Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me (Bob J)
6. 10:24 AM - Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
7. 10:24 AM - Tools (John Furey)
8. 10:28 AM - Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me (Dan Checkoway)
9. 10:42 AM - Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
10. 04:18 PM - Mail server (nico css)
11. 10:13 PM - Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me (jerry fray)
Message 1
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| Subject: | hartzell 2 blade vibes |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
SNIP One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake.
So now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those
of you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell,
or is it from a prop shop?
Kevin Shannon SNIP
Brand new from Hartzell, Barry mounts from TeamRocket, Indy mount from
TeamRocket. Everything else was a mixture of Vans, Harmon, and F-1
parts. No objectionable vibes to me. Getting the prop dynamically
balanced did improve what mild vibration I did have.
Vince
Message 2
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| Subject: | Sum up the vibration issue for me |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am.
I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a
shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul.
My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2"
Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical
readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the
front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the
engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance.
Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking w/I
.1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight.
I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part number
VIP50011-20, MFG 15332.
I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's.
I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I have,
prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I consider
it unsafe. Just another data point.
Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail)
told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I
tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct
replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine about
1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH!
Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this stuff.
Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those
that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success. That
will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for the
small vibration I have.
Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord
J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on order
and should get installed in the next couple of days.
Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists
messages. Good stuff.
Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever
reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended
blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest as
they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to Jimmy
for working this.
Best,
Mike
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 10/25/05 |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Bob & Toodie Marshall" <rtmarshall@osb.net>
Hi, where did the information come from that said the vibration was a second
or third order harmonic?As most of you know a rotating mass has different
Vibrations (Harmonics) at different RPM.s, here I go again asking for
numbers? my engine was balanced by Munson at performance and is reasonably
smooth, but I am sure the big jblade hartzell is producing some thumping,
How will indexing change this? How do we get the hartzell rep in on the
discussion.Bob. Do not archive----- Original Message -----
From: "Rocket-List Digest Server" <rocket-list-digest@matronics.com>
Subject: Rocket-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 10/25/05
> *
>
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
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> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
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>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
> Rocket-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 10/25/05: 8
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:37 AM - Re: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (N395V)
> 2. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (Stewart, Michael (ISS
> Atlanta))
> 3. 07:26 AM - Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (LesDrag@aol.com)
> 4. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (Bob J)
> 5. 08:19 AM - Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (Kevin Shannon)
> 6. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (nico css)
> 7. 05:23 PM - tools (John Furey)
> 8. 07:12 PM - Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (u2nelson)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:37:08 AM PST US
> From: N395V <N395V@direcway.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: N395V <N395V@direcway.com>
>
> The prop biz was not silly to those of us that had the shakes so bad as to
> almost
> make the aircraft unflyable. To date I have not heard a good explanation
> as
> to the cause of the shakes. So far we only know that going to a 3 blade
> fixed
> it in every case.
>
> I'm jealous of those who have a 2 blade and no shakes.
>
> Milt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> <mneufeld@verizon.net>
>
> Thanks John,
>
> All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my
> compooter.
>
> Mark Neufeld
>
>
> From: Hr2pilot@aol.com
> Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>
> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had the
> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase
> be
>
> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
> John
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:52:18 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
> From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
> <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> Getting Silly?
> I actually think this is an excellent discussion.
> Great feedback from those that have been there.
>
> No one so far has said that they had the shakes and changed isolator
> mounts. I am hoping to provide some data here once I work it out with
> Hartzell and Lord or Barry.
>
> Many thanks for all the posts on AND off list. Keep em coming.
> Best,
> Mike
> Do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: N395V <N395V@direcway.com>
>
> The prop biz was not silly to those of us that had the shakes so bad as
> to almost make the aircraft unflyable. To date I have not heard a good
> explanation as to the cause of the shakes. So far we only know that
> going to a 3 blade fixed it in every case.
>
> I'm jealous of those who have a 2 blade and no shakes.
>
> Milt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> <mneufeld@verizon.net>
>
> Thanks John,
>
> All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my
> compooter.
>
> Mark Neufeld
>
>
> From: Hr2pilot@aol.com
> Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>
> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had
> the
> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well
> alwase be
> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
> John
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:26:06 AM PST US
> From: LesDrag@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: LesDrag@aol.com
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I understand from talking with John Harmon that the Lord mounts work
> better
> than the Barry mounts. I hope you can work out a good solution with
> Barry.
>
> The 2 blade propeller has a 2nd order harmonic that isn't present with a
> 3
> blade propeller. That is the vibration you are trying to isolate.
>
> A 3 blade propeller has a 3rd order harmonic that isn't present with a 4
> blade propeller.
> I'm planning to use the MT 4 blade Rocket propeller on my Harmon Rocket
> 2.
> I also have the Lord mounts.
>
> Regards,
> Jim Ayers
>
> In a message dated 10/25/2005 5:53:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mstewart@iss.net writes:
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
> <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> Getting Silly?
> I actually think this is an excellent discussion.
> Great feedback from those that have been there.
>
> No one so far has said that they had the shakes and changed isolator
> mounts. I am hoping to provide some data here once I work it out with
> Hartzell and Lord or Barry.
>
> Many thanks for all the posts on AND off list. Keep em coming.
> Best,
> Mike
> Do not archive
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:28:53 AM PST US
> From: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>
> I agree. Improving these airplanes isn't silly. If nobody bothered to come
> up with new ideas or improved these airplanes there wouldn't be HR2's or
> F1's or Super-8's. Or even RV's for the matter.
>
> Regards,
> Bob
>
> do not archive
>
> On 10/25/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) <mstewart@iss.net> wrote:
>>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <
>> mstewart@iss.net>
>>
>> Getting Silly?
>> I actually think this is an excellent discussion.
>> Great feedback from those that have been there.
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:19:56 AM PST US
> From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon@seanet.com>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon@seanet.com>
>
> One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake. So
> now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those of
> you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell, or
> is it from a prop shop?
>
> Kevin Shannon
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>
> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had
> the
> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase
> be
> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
> John
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:17:17 AM PST US
> From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>
> Yeah, and I didn't know about all these problems. It was an education,
> silly
> or not. Thanks, guys.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "N395V" <N395V@direcway.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: N395V <N395V@direcway.com>
>>
>> The prop biz was not silly to those of us that had the shakes so bad as
>> to
> almost make the aircraft unflyable. To date I have not heard a good
> explanation as to the cause of the shakes. So far we only know that going
> to
> a 3 blade fixed it in every case.
>>
>> I'm jealous of those who have a 2 blade and no shakes.
>>
>> Milt
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>>
>>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> <mneufeld@verizon.net>
>>
>> Thanks John,
>>
>> All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my
> compooter.
>>
>> Mark Neufeld
>>
>>
>> From: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>> Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005
>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>>
>> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had
> the
>> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
>> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well
>> alwase
> be
>> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
>> John
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:23:06 PM PST US
> From: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
> Subject: Rocket-List: tools
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
>
> A builders dream collection. Highest quality MAC tools and box. Every tool
> imaginable in a tool box 7' tall by 10' long, approx 2 ton. Shipping
> available. Everything you could ever need for working on anything
> automotive
> or aircraft related. Appraised at over $70,000 replacement value yours for
> only $15,000. A friend retired after 40 years as a professional mechanic
> and
> I am selling them. Contact me off list at john@fureychrysler.com for
> details
> and pictures.
>
> John Furey
> 2nd RV6A
> F1 under construction
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:12:31 PM PST US
> From: "u2nelson" <u2nelson@prodigy.net>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "u2nelson" <u2nelson@prodigy.net>
>
> Brand spanking new from Hartzell.
>
> Greg Nelson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin
> Shannon
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon@seanet.com>
>
> One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake. So
> now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those of
> you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell, or
> is it from a prop shop?
>
> Kevin Shannon
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>
> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had
> the
> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well alwase
> be
> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
> John
>
>
>
Message 4
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|
| Subject: | Re: hartzell 2 blade vibes |
version=3.0.3
--> Rocket-List message posted by: John Huft <rv8@lazy8.net>
Guys, I am not sure this applies, but
In the C180/185 world, many guys with the older birds have gone to new 3
blade props (about 90 lbs, they are 88" dia.), and had shaking problems.
The universal fix has been to go to the heavier seaplane engine mount,
which turns them into turbines. It has a couple of extra cross braces
that the stock mount doesn't have (for rough water ops).
John Harmon and Mark Frederick...is it possible a stiffer engine mount
might help this problem?
John
C-185 (heavy mount and 3-blade)
RV-8 "Nuisance"
Mullicoupe in the oven
Frazier, Vincent A wrote:
>--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
>
>
>SNIP One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake.
>So now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those
>of you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell,
>or is it from a prop shop?
>
>Kevin Shannon SNIP
>
>Brand new from Hartzell, Barry mounts from TeamRocket, Indy mount from
>TeamRocket. Everything else was a mixture of Vans, Harmon, and F-1
>parts. No objectionable vibes to me. Getting the prop dynamically
>balanced did improve what mild vibration I did have.
>
>Vince
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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|
| Subject: | Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
One thing I'd add is that clocking the prop differently can have an effect.
One thing I've been told is having the prop clocked in the 10-4 O'clock
position is the worst position vibration-wise. If you ever see a Husky with
a CS prop on the ramp somewhere, you'll notice their props stop vertically,
the clocking is different...done to lessen vibration. Mooney 201
(IO-360-A3B6) is another one with different prop clocking, same reason.
Regards,
Bob
On 10/26/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) <mstewart@iss.net> wrote:
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <
> mstewart@iss.net>
>
> A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am.
>
>
> I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a
> shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul.
>
> My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2"
>
> Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical
> readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the
> front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the
> engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance.
>
>
> Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking w/I
> .1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight.
>
>
> I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part number
> VIP50011-20, MFG 15332.
>
> I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's.
>
>
> I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I have,
> prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I consider
> it unsafe. Just another data point.
>
>
> Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail)
> told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I
> tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct
> replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine about
> 1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH!
>
>
> Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this stuff.
> Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those
> that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success. That
> will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for the
> small vibration I have.
>
>
> Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord
> J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on order
> and should get installed in the next couple of days.
>
>
> Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists
> messages. Good stuff.
>
>
> Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever
> reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended
> blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest as
> they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to Jimmy
> for working this.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
I received the following from a Hartzell engineer. This is one snip of
many threads:
" Your prop and engine combination are used on a few different
applications with the IO-540-C4B5 and -A4D5, including the Aztec, so
those numbers sound right to me. ..... Without knowing the frequency of
the offending vibration, it is difficult to say exactly what is causing
it. Because you feel the vibration during almost all phases of flight,
I'm still speculating it is engine 1/2 order vibration (and/or its
multiples) that you are feeling. Assuming everything is running
properly on the engine (no weak cylinders), I'm hopeful the new
isolators will solve the problem.
I have one more question at this point; can you tell me how your
propeller is clocked on the engine flange? Where are the blades
relative to the #1-2 crankpin plane? In other words, when
forward-looking-aft at the face of the engine, where are the blades when
the #1 cylider is at TDC?"
Answer I sent him back to the clocking sitting in cockpit looking fwd is
11/5
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob &
Toodie Marshall
Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 10/25/05
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Bob & Toodie Marshall"
<rtmarshall@osb.net>
Hi, where did the information come from that said the vibration was a
second
or third order harmonic?As most of you know a rotating mass has
different
Vibrations (Harmonics) at different RPM.s, here I go again asking for
numbers? my engine was balanced by Munson at performance and is
reasonably
smooth, but I am sure the big jblade hartzell is producing some
thumping,
How will indexing change this? How do we get the hartzell rep in on the
discussion.Bob. Do not archive----- Original Message -----
From: "Rocket-List Digest Server" <rocket-list-digest@matronics.com>
Subject: Rocket-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 10/25/05
> *
>
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
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> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
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> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
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>
>
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5.txt
>
>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
> Rocket-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 10/25/05: 8
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:37 AM - Re: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (N395V)
> 2. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (Stewart, Michael
(ISS
> Atlanta))
> 3. 07:26 AM - Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (LesDrag@aol.com)
> 4. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (Bob J)
> 5. 08:19 AM - Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (Kevin Shannon)
> 6. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (nico css)
> 7. 05:23 PM - tools (John Furey)
> 8. 07:12 PM - Re: Lord J-3804-20 isolators (u2nelson)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:37:08 AM PST US
> From: N395V <N395V@direcway.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: N395V <N395V@direcway.com>
>
> The prop biz was not silly to those of us that had the shakes so bad
as to
> almost
> make the aircraft unflyable. To date I have not heard a good
explanation
> as
> to the cause of the shakes. So far we only know that going to a 3
blade
> fixed
> it in every case.
>
> I'm jealous of those who have a 2 blade and no shakes.
>
> Milt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> <mneufeld@verizon.net>
>
> Thanks John,
>
> All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my
> compooter.
>
> Mark Neufeld
>
>
> From: Hr2pilot@aol.com
> Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>
> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had
the
> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well
alwase
> be
>
> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
> John
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:52:18 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
> From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
> <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> Getting Silly?
> I actually think this is an excellent discussion.
> Great feedback from those that have been there.
>
> No one so far has said that they had the shakes and changed isolator
> mounts. I am hoping to provide some data here once I work it out with
> Hartzell and Lord or Barry.
>
> Many thanks for all the posts on AND off list. Keep em coming.
> Best,
> Mike
> Do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: N395V <N395V@direcway.com>
>
> The prop biz was not silly to those of us that had the shakes so bad
as
> to almost make the aircraft unflyable. To date I have not heard a good
> explanation as to the cause of the shakes. So far we only know that
> going to a 3 blade fixed it in every case.
>
> I'm jealous of those who have a 2 blade and no shakes.
>
> Milt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> <mneufeld@verizon.net>
>
> Thanks John,
>
> All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my
> compooter.
>
> Mark Neufeld
>
>
> From: Hr2pilot@aol.com
> Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>
> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had
> the
> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well
> alwase be
> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
> John
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:26:06 AM PST US
> From: LesDrag@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: LesDrag@aol.com
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I understand from talking with John Harmon that the Lord mounts work
> better
> than the Barry mounts. I hope you can work out a good solution with
> Barry.
>
> The 2 blade propeller has a 2nd order harmonic that isn't present with
a
> 3
> blade propeller. That is the vibration you are trying to isolate.
>
> A 3 blade propeller has a 3rd order harmonic that isn't present with a
4
> blade propeller.
> I'm planning to use the MT 4 blade Rocket propeller on my Harmon
Rocket
> 2.
> I also have the Lord mounts.
>
> Regards,
> Jim Ayers
>
> In a message dated 10/25/2005 5:53:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mstewart@iss.net writes:
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
> <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> Getting Silly?
> I actually think this is an excellent discussion.
> Great feedback from those that have been there.
>
> No one so far has said that they had the shakes and changed isolator
> mounts. I am hoping to provide some data here once I work it out with
> Hartzell and Lord or Barry.
>
> Many thanks for all the posts on AND off list. Keep em coming.
> Best,
> Mike
> Do not archive
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:28:53 AM PST US
> From: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>
> I agree. Improving these airplanes isn't silly. If nobody bothered to
come
> up with new ideas or improved these airplanes there wouldn't be HR2's
or
> F1's or Super-8's. Or even RV's for the matter.
>
> Regards,
> Bob
>
> do not archive
>
> On 10/25/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) <mstewart@iss.net> wrote:
>>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <
>> mstewart@iss.net>
>>
>> Getting Silly?
>> I actually think this is an excellent discussion.
>> Great feedback from those that have been there.
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:19:56 AM PST US
> From: "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon@seanet.com>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Kevin Shannon"
<kshannon@seanet.com>
>
> One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake. So
> now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those
of
> you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell,
or
> is it from a prop shop?
>
> Kevin Shannon
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>
> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had
> the
> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well
alwase
> be
> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
> John
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:17:17 AM PST US
> From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "nico css"
<nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>
> Yeah, and I didn't know about all these problems. It was an education,
> silly
> or not. Thanks, guys.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "N395V" <N395V@direcway.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: N395V <N395V@direcway.com>
>>
>> The prop biz was not silly to those of us that had the shakes so bad
as
>> to
> almost make the aircraft unflyable. To date I have not heard a good
> explanation as to the cause of the shakes. So far we only know that
going
> to
> a 3 blade fixed it in every case.
>>
>> I'm jealous of those who have a 2 blade and no shakes.
>>
>> Milt
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>>
>>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Mark Neufeld - HR-2
> <mneufeld@verizon.net>
>>
>> Thanks John,
>>
>> All this prop biz was getting silly and was a waste of space on my
> compooter.
>>
>> Mark Neufeld
>>
>>
>> From: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>> Date: Mon Oct 24 14:13:19 CDT 2005
>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>>
>> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have
had
> the
>> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number
of
> other
>> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well
>> alwase
> be
>> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
>> John
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:23:06 PM PST US
> From: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
> Subject: Rocket-List: tools
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "John Furey"
<john@fureychrysler.com>
>
> A builders dream collection. Highest quality MAC tools and box. Every
tool
> imaginable in a tool box 7' tall by 10' long, approx 2 ton. Shipping
> available. Everything you could ever need for working on anything
> automotive
> or aircraft related. Appraised at over $70,000 replacement value yours
for
> only $15,000. A friend retired after 40 years as a professional
mechanic
> and
> I am selling them. Contact me off list at john@fureychrysler.com for
> details
> and pictures.
>
> John Furey
> 2nd RV6A
> F1 under construction
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:12:31 PM PST US
> From: "u2nelson" <u2nelson@prodigy.net>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "u2nelson" <u2nelson@prodigy.net>
>
> Brand spanking new from Hartzell.
>
> Greg Nelson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin
> Shannon
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Lord J-3804-20 isolators
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Kevin Shannon"
<kshannon@seanet.com>
>
> One out of 11 still sounds high to me, I don't want mine to shake. So
> now I am starting to wonder and need to ask this question: For those
of
> you who are experiencing the shake, is/was your prop a new Hartzell,
or
> is it from a prop shop?
>
> Kevin Shannon
>
>
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Hr2pilot@aol.com
>
> I have flown over 35 different Harmon Rocket II's and only 3 have had
> the
> bad shake that all the talk is about. I also have tested a number of
> other
> props, MT 3 blade and 4 blade even a McCauley.The 3& 4 blade well
alwase
> be
> smoother, is it worth 2 -3 grand more ? not to me
> John
>
>
>
Message 7
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|
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
A couple of people asked about the tools but my emails keep bouncing back so
please call me at 330-205-8265
Thanks
John
Do Not Archive
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
FWIW, here's what Bob is talking about for the 4-cyl re-clock:
http://rvproject.com/m20j/pdfs/service_bulletins/sbm20-206.pdf
Basically you press out the existing bushings in the prop flange and press
new ones into different locations. I have not done this on my
IO-360-A1B6...my engine & prop are smooth.
That said, if and when I ever replace my cheap-ass engine mounts, I'm
probably gonna splurge for Lord gel filled sac mounts to apparently reduce
shudder at startup/shutdown.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (651 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob J" <rocketbob@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Sum up the vibration issue for me
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>
> One thing I'd add is that clocking the prop differently can have an
> effect.
> One thing I've been told is having the prop clocked in the 10-4 O'clock
> position is the worst position vibration-wise. If you ever see a Husky
> with
> a CS prop on the ramp somewhere, you'll notice their props stop
> vertically,
> the clocking is different...done to lessen vibration. Mooney 201
> (IO-360-A3B6) is another one with different prop clocking, same reason.
>
> Regards,
> Bob
>
> On 10/26/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) <mstewart@iss.net> wrote:
>>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <
>> mstewart@iss.net>
>>
>> A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am.
>>
>>
>> I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a
>> shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul.
>>
>> My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2"
>>
>> Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical
>> readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the
>> front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the
>> engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance.
>>
>>
>> Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking w/I
>> .1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight.
>>
>>
>> I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part number
>> VIP50011-20, MFG 15332.
>>
>> I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's.
>>
>>
>> I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I have,
>> prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I consider
>> it unsafe. Just another data point.
>>
>>
>> Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail)
>> told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I
>> tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct
>> replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine about
>> 1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH!
>>
>>
>> Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this stuff.
>> Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those
>> that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success. That
>> will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for the
>> small vibration I have.
>>
>>
>> Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord
>> J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on order
>> and should get installed in the next couple of days.
>>
>>
>> Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists
>> messages. Good stuff.
>>
>>
>> Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever
>> reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended
>> blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest as
>> they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to Jimmy
>> for working this.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Sum up the vibration issue for me |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
My bushings are cast as part of the crank and thus do not allow for
reindexing. (I think)
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Checkoway
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Sum up the vibration issue for me
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
FWIW, here's what Bob is talking about for the 4-cyl re-clock:
http://rvproject.com/m20j/pdfs/service_bulletins/sbm20-206.pdf
Basically you press out the existing bushings in the prop flange and
press
new ones into different locations. I have not done this on my
IO-360-A1B6...my engine & prop are smooth.
That said, if and when I ever replace my cheap-ass engine mounts, I'm
probably gonna splurge for Lord gel filled sac mounts to apparently
reduce
shudder at startup/shutdown.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (651 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob J" <rocketbob@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Sum up the vibration issue for me
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>
> One thing I'd add is that clocking the prop differently can have an
> effect.
> One thing I've been told is having the prop clocked in the 10-4
O'clock
> position is the worst position vibration-wise. If you ever see a Husky
> with
> a CS prop on the ramp somewhere, you'll notice their props stop
> vertically,
> the clocking is different...done to lessen vibration. Mooney 201
> (IO-360-A3B6) is another one with different prop clocking, same
reason.
>
> Regards,
> Bob
>
> On 10/26/05, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) <mstewart@iss.net> wrote:
>>
>> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <
>> mstewart@iss.net>
>>
>> A recap for you all on the Rocket list so you know where I am.
>>
>>
>> I installed on an RV-8 an IO-540 c4b5 with a custom prop built from a
>> shop in NC. Certified engine overhaul.
>>
>> My hub is a HC-C2YR-1B and my blades are F-8465-7R chopped 2"
>>
>> Couple of dynamic balances by 2 different guys. Both with identical
>> readings and a good balance. One even hooked up multiple units to the
>> front and rear case to check for crank and so forth. Both said the
>> engine is great and only took a small bolt and nut to balance.
>>
>>
>> Engine runs great with a nice engine monitor getting egt's peaking
w/I
>> .1gph. All compressions are 77+ in 60 hours of flight.
>>
>>
>> I have the Vans purchased Vibration Isolator Products, their part
number
>> VIP50011-20, MFG 15332.
>>
>> I have a light annoying vibration more noticeable at lower RPM's.
>>
>>
>> I have a friend with a Super 7 I have flown with the exact setup I
have,
>> prop and all from the same shop, and his vibration is so bad I
consider
>> it unsafe. Just another data point.
>>
>>
>> Hartzell engineer (Les Doud who has been very responsive over e-mail)
>> told me to try the mounts vans uses on the RV-10, Lord J-3804-20. I
>> tried to install and immediately found that these are not direct
>> replacements for the ones I have and would have brought the engine
about
>> 1" closer to the firewall. NOT happening. ARGH!
>>
>>
>> Received lots of great threads on folks with experience with this
stuff.
>> Many have exactly what I have in setup with no issues, some do. Those
>> that did, changed to the MT, or other 3 blade, with good success.
That
>> will be the last resort for me. That's a big dollar nut to crack for
the
>> small vibration I have.
>>
>>
>> Spoke to Lord yesterday (Paul Snyder) and he suggested the Lord
>> J-9613-12 mount used on Navajo's and Cherokees. So I got that on
order
>> and should get installed in the next couple of days.
>>
>>
>> Thanks to Jimmy Baker, Bob Japundza et all for the great on/off lists
>> messages. Good stuff.
>>
>>
>> Will report finding as I go. If the mounts don't work for what ever
>> reason, I plan to try and get Hartzell to pony up a pair of blended
>> blades as a test bed for this problem. They have expressed interest
as
>> they are loosing a lot of business to MT in our market. Thanks to
Jimmy
>> for working this.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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|
--> Rocket-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Folks,
Our mail server was down for an hour or so.
If you sent email today and have not received a reply, please resend.
We apologize for any inconvenience.
Thanks
Nico
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: Sum up the vibration issue for me |
--> Rocket-List message posted by: jerry fray <jerryfray@yahoo.com>
Hello rocket list,
This is my first post to the list, and figured it was
about time to weigh in. I'm one of the alaska
rocketeers, and after starting ship #100 in '02, I
finally got it in the air this past august. I'm at 36
hours, with all restrictions taken care of, and trying
to get as much flying in as possible before the snow
flies here. I can say many of you have helped me with
postings on the list, and of course F1 Mark was always
ready to do just that.
I have a stock, high time C4B5 on it, but it's still
doing the job of about 215mph indicated at 24 square.
Regards the prop, I have a 76", 2 blade Aerocomposite,
and it's a very high quality piece. I really chose it
for its 38# weight, as I also went with a light, gel
cell battery up front, saving about 50# over all.(60#
weight at the tail). I do have a vibration between
2200-2400 rpm, but the engine is really smooth at 2100
or 2500+. I've been having too much fun to mess with
it, but I'll get a dynamic balance first. I have the
barry mounts from F1. Any ideas out there on a
vibration like mine??
I'll say that any rocket drivers coming up Anchorage
way are to come by and visit. Plan to make Oshkosh
next year and get to see some of these awesome
machines.
Cheers, Jerry Fray
jerryfray@yahoo.com
__________________________________
http://farechase.yahoo.com
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