Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:08 AM - Jump Starting a Rocket (Wayne Hadath)
2. 04:10 AM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (Tom Martin)
3. 04:34 AM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (rgraham@ozemail.com.au)
4. 05:59 AM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (Jim Stone)
5. 08:29 AM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (nico css)
6. 08:41 AM - Bell tailwheel and Screaming Eagle tailwheel (Frazier, Vincent A)
7. 08:51 AM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (Wernerworld)
8. 09:12 AM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (nico css)
9. 09:47 AM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (dlbenham)
10. 10:39 AM - Hot Starting Rocket (JOHNTMEY@aol.com)
11. 10:39 AM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (nico css)
12. 11:04 AM - Re: Hot Starting Rocket (CalBru@aol.com)
13. 11:45 AM - Re: Hot Starting Rocket (Chuck Jensen)
14. 03:16 PM - Re: Hot Starting Rocket (nico css)
15. 06:19 PM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (Jim Stone)
16. 06:48 PM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (Wernerworld)
17. 06:54 PM - Re: Hot Starting Rocket (Jim Stone)
18. 06:57 PM - Re: Hot Starting Rocket (Jim Stone)
19. 07:05 PM - Re: Hot Starting Rocket (Jim Stone)
20. 07:35 PM - Re: jumpstarting a Rocket (Jim Stone)
21. 11:01 PM - Official Rocket-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
22. 11:06 PM - Official Rocket-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Jump Starting a Rocket |
Jim
I would suggest a few things to look at are, How old is the battery? Has it
been run flat? If it is 2 years or has been run flat it is not what it used
to be.
It may be time for a starter overhaul. It may be a bit of both.
Wayne
F1 Rocket
Message 2
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| Subject: | jumpstarting a Rocket |
Jim
Typically these engines turn over much easier hot than cold,
especially with higher compression pistons. That has been my experience.
Since you have eliminated the battery issue then check all big lead
connections, especially ground connections. Take the starter off and take
it to your local automotive starter shop and have it checked out. Also next
time the engine is hot, be careful, and try to turn the prop by hand to see
if there are any restrictions. Hydrostatic lock is not usual in this type
of engine but maybe there is something else going on in the engine itself.
My bets are on the starter. I have had two new skytec starters that have
had to be replaced out of the last four airplanes. The replacements have
worked fine.
Tom
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: September 30, 2007 10:16 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Does anyone know of a product that allows one to jumpstart a Rocket when the
battery has run down?
I have 10 to 1 pistons and after flying for a while, getting gas, I am
unable to start due to very high resistance to cranking caused, I assume by
the hot engine. After cooling for 2 hours or so, she turns easy and starts
right up. I thought the problem was with the P680s being 4-5 years old so I
replaced them. No improvement to the problem. All suggestions welcome.
TIA,
Jim Stone
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Rocket-List
9:46 PM
9:46 PM
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: jumpstarting a Rocket |
Jim,
Which starter motor do you have and is your engine to airframe earth
connection good?
Cheers,
Ron Graham (F1 #105, Oz)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: jumpstarting a Rocket |
Thanks for all the troubleshooting tips. I'll address each one here.
I have the B&C starter, two new PC680 batteries, I used number two
aircraft wire from battery to firewall for both Pos and Neg., The Neg
cable home runs to the forest of tabs on the firewall, then on to engine
block.
I will check all grounds and positive connections all the way to the
starter, today and will report back.
As for Hydrostatic lock, I'm not sure how that could be the problem
unless a whole lot of fuel got into the cylinder, is that reasonable?
My hot start symptom is: normal rotation and some firing but no start,
as I continue to crank, the high resistance wins over the batteries and
the cranking degrades to one or two blades before stopping. After
cranking and no start, I feel like the engine is not getting any fuel so
I advance the mixture midway. That is about the time the battery is
running down (hydrostatic lock?).
As for hot start technique, I understand that full throttle and mixture
off with no prime is the general recommendation, however, I have been
cautioned about using that procedure in a Harmon Rocket because the tail
has come off the ground and scarred to poo out of the owner. Any
comments here?
I was hoping someone has come up with a simple and permanent charging
and jumpstart system where the battery cover would not have to be
removed/replaced. I would like to avoid an external opening type system
as per Bob Nuckolls design.
Thanks for al the help,
If you would rather talk than type, call anytime. 502 235-3599 or send
my you number, I'll call you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Martin
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:09 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Jim
Typically these engines turn over much easier hot than
cold, especially with higher compression pistons. That has been my
experience.
Since you have eliminated the battery issue then check all big lead
connections, especially ground connections. Take the starter off and
take it to your local automotive starter shop and have it checked out.
Also next time the engine is hot, be careful, and try to turn the prop
by hand to see if there are any restrictions. Hydrostatic lock is not
usual in this type of engine but maybe there is something else going on
in the engine itself.
My bets are on the starter. I have had two new skytec starters that
have had to be replaced out of the last four airplanes. The
replacements have worked fine.
Tom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: September 30, 2007 10:16 PM
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Subject: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Does anyone know of a product that allows one to jumpstart a Rocket
when the battery has run down?
I have 10 to 1 pistons and after flying for a while, getting gas, I am
unable to start due to very high resistance to cranking caused, I assume
by the hot engine. After cooling for 2 hours or so, she turns easy and
starts right up. I thought the problem was with the P680s being 4-5
years old so I replaced them. No improvement to the problem. All
suggestions welcome.
TIA,
Jim Stone
Release Date: 29/09/2007 9:46 PM
29/09/2007 9:46 PM
Message 5
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| Subject: | jumpstarting a Rocket |
Type is better, then I can read it when I have time.
If the engine is turning over, hydrostatic lock is out of the question.
Without trying to instruct you, hydrostatic locks ruined engines where one
cylinder was flooded with more fuel than the compression chamber's capacity
and a cylinder earlier in the firing order fires first. There is no way that
the fired-up engine can stop on the flooded cylinder and it usually bends
the conrod. (and ruins plans for flying). If the engine turns through all
cylinders, there is no hydrostatic lock.
It is either flooded or fuel-starved, if the ignition is firing. For fuel
injected Lyc hot-starts, I used to intentionally flood the engine and then
crank it with fuel cut off and full throttle - but that was in a trike. The
Rocket might well change position quickly with that technique.
I would agree with the other folks that you may have to focus on the battery
and the starter, to increase battery capacity and/or reduce starter load.
Nico
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Thanks for all the troubleshooting tips. I'll address each one here.
I have the B&C starter, two new PC680 batteries, I used number two aircraft
wire from battery to firewall for both Pos and Neg., The Neg cable home runs
to the forest of tabs on the firewall, then on to engine block.
I will check all grounds and positive connections all the way to the
starter, today and will report back.
As for Hydrostatic lock, I'm not sure how that could be the problem unless a
whole lot of fuel got into the cylinder, is that reasonable?
My hot start symptom is: normal rotation and some firing but no start, as I
continue to crank, the high resistance wins over the batteries and the
cranking degrades to one or two blades before stopping. After cranking and
no start, I feel like the engine is not getting any fuel so I advance the
mixture midway. That is about the time the battery is running down
(hydrostatic lock?).
As for hot start technique, I understand that full throttle and mixture off
with no prime is the general recommendation, however, I have been cautioned
about using that procedure in a Harmon Rocket because the tail has come off
the ground and scarred to poo out of the owner. Any comments here?
I was hoping someone has come up with a simple and permanent charging and
jumpstart system where the battery cover would not have to be
removed/replaced. I would like to avoid an external opening type system as
per Bob Nuckolls design.
Thanks for al the help,
If you would rather talk than type, call anytime. 502 235-3599 or send my
you number, I'll call you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Martin <mailto:fairlea@amtelecom.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:09 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Jim
Typically these engines turn over much easier hot than cold,
especially with higher compression pistons. That has been my experience.
Since you have eliminated the battery issue then check all big lead
connections, especially ground connections. Take the starter off and take
it to your local automotive starter shop and have it checked out. Also next
time the engine is hot, be careful, and try to turn the prop by hand to see
if there are any restrictions. Hydrostatic lock is not usual in this type
of engine but maybe there is something else going on in the engine itself.
My bets are on the starter. I have had two new skytec starters that have
had to be replaced out of the last four airplanes. The replacements have
worked fine.
Tom
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: September 30, 2007 10:16 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Does anyone know of a product that allows one to jumpstart a Rocket when the
battery has run down?
I have 10 to 1 pistons and after flying for a while, getting gas, I am
unable to start due to very high resistance to cranking caused, I assume by
the hot engine. After cooling for 2 hours or so, she turns easy and starts
right up. I thought the problem was with the P680s being 4-5 years old so I
replaced them. No improvement to the problem. All suggestions welcome.
TIA,
Jim Stone
Release Date: 29/09/2007 9:46 PM
29/09/2007 9:46 PM
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Bell tailwheel and Screaming Eagle tailwheel |
Guys,
Bell makes a fine tailwheel. No doubt about it. But so do I. IMHO, if
you have a Van's or Rocket taildragger you should have either a Bell or
a Screaming Eagle tailwheel installed. You will love the better
handling and the extra clearance that either will provide.
A Screaming Eagle tailwheel is a bit more streamlined and more closely
resembles the stock Van's type. Screaming Eagle tailwheels will accept
a wheel pant and still be able to full swivel if you're a total speed
freak.
A Screaming Eagle tailwheel fork is available to EASILY retrofit your
existing Van's fork. Literally a 5 minute swap.
I have tailwheels, tires, and replacement parts in stock all of the
time. I usually ship the following day.
Screaming Eagle tailwheels are guaranteed. If you don't like it, send it
back.
Please take a look at the website below as there is far too much info to
list here. For instance, I offer a durable, lightweight tailwheel tire
that is 6 oz lighter than the Van's tire. Also sealed bearing to
eliminate the mess on the rudder.
Thanks,
Vince Frazier
Screaming Eagle Graphics and Accessories, LLC
3965 Caborn Road
Mount Vernon, IN 47620
812-464-1839
http://vincesrocket.com/products.htm
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: jumpstarting a Rocket |
Another thing that can cause a similar symptom is ignition firing too
early and hitting before TDC.
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Type is better, then I can read it when I have time.
If the engine is turning over, hydrostatic lock is out of the question.
Without trying to instruct you, hydrostatic locks ruined engines where
one cylinder was flooded with more fuel than the compression chamber's
capacity and a cylinder earlier in the firing order fires first. There
is no way that the fired-up engine can stop on the flooded cylinder and
it usually bends the conrod. (and ruins plans for flying). If the engine
turns through all cylinders, there is no hydrostatic lock.
It is either flooded or fuel-starved, if the ignition is firing. For
fuel injected Lyc hot-starts, I used to intentionally flood the engine
and then crank it with fuel cut off and full throttle - but that was in
a trike. The Rocket might well change position quickly with that
technique.
I would agree with the other folks that you may have to focus on the
battery and the starter, to increase battery capacity and/or reduce
starter load.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Thanks for all the troubleshooting tips. I'll address each one here.
I have the B&C starter, two new PC680 batteries, I used number two
aircraft wire from battery to firewall for both Pos and Neg., The Neg
cable home runs to the forest of tabs on the firewall, then on to engine
block.
I will check all grounds and positive connections all the way to the
starter, today and will report back.
As for Hydrostatic lock, I'm not sure how that could be the problem
unless a whole lot of fuel got into the cylinder, is that reasonable?
My hot start symptom is: normal rotation and some firing but no start,
as I continue to crank, the high resistance wins over the batteries and
the cranking degrades to one or two blades before stopping. After
cranking and no start, I feel like the engine is not getting any fuel so
I advance the mixture midway. That is about the time the battery is
running down (hydrostatic lock?).
As for hot start technique, I understand that full throttle and mixture
off with no prime is the general recommendation, however, I have been
cautioned about using that procedure in a Harmon Rocket because the tail
has come off the ground and scarred to poo out of the owner. Any
comments here?
I was hoping someone has come up with a simple and permanent charging
and jumpstart system where the battery cover would not have to be
removed/replaced. I would like to avoid an external opening type system
as per Bob Nuckolls design.
Thanks for al the help,
If you would rather talk than type, call anytime. 502 235-3599 or send
my you number, I'll call you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Martin
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:09 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Jim
Typically these engines turn over much easier hot than
cold, especially with higher compression pistons. That has been my
experience.
Since you have eliminated the battery issue then check all big lead
connections, especially ground connections. Take the starter off and
take it to your local automotive starter shop and have it checked out.
Also next time the engine is hot, be careful, and try to turn the prop
by hand to see if there are any restrictions. Hydrostatic lock is not
usual in this type of engine but maybe there is something else going on
in the engine itself.
My bets are on the starter. I have had two new skytec starters that
have had to be replaced out of the last four airplanes. The
replacements have worked fine.
Tom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: September 30, 2007 10:16 PM
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Subject: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Does anyone know of a product that allows one to jumpstart a Rocket
when the battery has run down?
I have 10 to 1 pistons and after flying for a while, getting gas, I am
unable to start due to very high resistance to cranking caused, I assume
by the hot engine. After cooling for 2 hours or so, she turns easy and
starts right up. I thought the problem was with the P680s being 4-5
years old so I replaced them. No improvement to the problem. All
suggestions welcome.
TIA,
Jim Stone
Release Date: 29/09/2007 9:46 PM
29/09/2007 9:46 PM
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
10/1/2007 10:20 AM
Message 8
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| Subject: | jumpstarting a Rocket |
I doubt it. An advanced ignition timing would cause the engine to kick-back
and it would do the same after the cool-down period. But, apparently, it
starts normally after cooling down. I believe the battery doesn't have the
capacity to crank the engine long (fast) enough to fire up during a hot
start. I had a 500 Commander with suspicious batteries, and during hot
starts it would easily exhaust the batteries capacity. One day a guy lifted
his Centurion's battery to give me a jump-start. The cranking was at least
double the speed of my regular batteries and the engines fired up without
any problems. I replaced the batteries and the problem went away
immediately.
Nico
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wernerworld
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Another thing that can cause a similar symptom is ignition firing too early
and hitting before TDC.
----- Original Message -----
From: nico <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com> css
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Type is better, then I can read it when I have time.
If the engine is turning over, hydrostatic lock is out of the question.
Without trying to instruct you, hydrostatic locks ruined engines where one
cylinder was flooded with more fuel than the compression chamber's capacity
and a cylinder earlier in the firing order fires first. There is no way that
the fired-up engine can stop on the flooded cylinder and it usually bends
the conrod. (and ruins plans for flying). If the engine turns through all
cylinders, there is no hydrostatic lock.
It is either flooded or fuel-starved, if the ignition is firing. For fuel
injected Lyc hot-starts, I used to intentionally flood the engine and then
crank it with fuel cut off and full throttle - but that was in a trike. The
Rocket might well change position quickly with that technique.
I would agree with the other folks that you may have to focus on the battery
and the starter, to increase battery capacity and/or reduce starter load.
Nico
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Thanks for all the troubleshooting tips. I'll address each one here.
I have the B&C starter, two new PC680 batteries, I used number two aircraft
wire from battery to firewall for both Pos and Neg., The Neg cable home runs
to the forest of tabs on the firewall, then on to engine block.
I will check all grounds and positive connections all the way to the
starter, today and will report back.
As for Hydrostatic lock, I'm not sure how that could be the problem unless a
whole lot of fuel got into the cylinder, is that reasonable?
My hot start symptom is: normal rotation and some firing but no start, as I
continue to crank, the high resistance wins over the batteries and the
cranking degrades to one or two blades before stopping. After cranking and
no start, I feel like the engine is not getting any fuel so I advance the
mixture midway. That is about the time the battery is running down
(hydrostatic lock?).
As for hot start technique, I understand that full throttle and mixture off
with no prime is the general recommendation, however, I have been cautioned
about using that procedure in a Harmon Rocket because the tail has come off
the ground and scarred to poo out of the owner. Any comments here?
I was hoping someone has come up with a simple and permanent charging and
jumpstart system where the battery cover would not have to be
removed/replaced. I would like to avoid an external opening type system as
per Bob Nuckolls design.
Thanks for al the help,
If you would rather talk than type, call anytime. 502 235-3599 or send my
you number, I'll call you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Martin <mailto:fairlea@amtelecom.net>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:09 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Jim
Typically these engines turn over much easier hot than cold,
especially with higher compression pistons. That has been my experience.
Since you have eliminated the battery issue then check all big lead
connections, especially ground connections. Take the starter off and take
it to your local automotive starter shop and have it checked out. Also next
time the engine is hot, be careful, and try to turn the prop by hand to see
if there are any restrictions. Hydrostatic lock is not usual in this type
of engine but maybe there is something else going on in the engine itself.
My bets are on the starter. I have had two new skytec starters that have
had to be replaced out of the last four airplanes. The replacements have
worked fine.
Tom
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: September 30, 2007 10:16 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Does anyone know of a product that allows one to jumpstart a Rocket when the
battery has run down?
I have 10 to 1 pistons and after flying for a while, getting gas, I am
unable to start due to very high resistance to cranking caused, I assume by
the hot engine. After cooling for 2 hours or so, she turns easy and starts
right up. I thought the problem was with the P680s being 4-5 years old so I
replaced them. No improvement to the problem. All suggestions welcome.
TIA,
Jim Stone
Release Date: 29/09/2007 9:46 PM
29/09/2007 9:46 PM
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_____
Edition. 10/1/2007 10:20 AM
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: jumpstarting a Rocket |
Is hydrostatic lock the same as hydraulic lock? Inquiring minds want to
know.
Dallas Benham
398DB
Message 10
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| Subject: | Hot Starting Rocket |
Current thread reminds me of question of hot starting the IO-540. (cold
start never a problem)
Every now and then, mine gets cranky. Won't start hot. I have an Airflow
recirculating valve which seems to complicate the matter. After pumping, I
can't tell if I'm wet or dry. Guess I don't know how to use it.
My best bet is to open the oil door after parking... then later re-start
with no recirculation, no prime, mix cut-off, throttle 1/2 open. It usually
pops right off while enrichening mixture, then will smooth-out with a short
burst of electric pump. Requires lots of hand movements
Any other hints ?
JohnM N5800
Message 11
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| Subject: | jumpstarting a Rocket |
Apparently, they are the same.
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dlbenham
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Is hydrostatic lock the same as hydraulic lock? Inquiring minds want to
know.
Dallas Benham
398DB
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Hot Starting Rocket |
My hot start procedure from my checklist, as provided by Ron Carter:
HOT START
Mixture Closed
Throttle Closed
Fuel Pump run it until you hear it load up
Starter run starter --BTW, my starter switch is on my stick so I
can hold it back
Mixture to 1 inch Upon firing, full rich, throttle slowly move the
mixture forward no more than one inch( while running the starter) When if fires,
push it full forward and add some throttle Keep the stick full back during
all this
This has always worked for me, and I appreciate Ron's telling me how to do
it. Before I learned this, I jump started two times. Once at my
hangar--no big deal, but once at a small airport duing the test hours. His rust
bucket Nissan PU was parked between my wing and tail! You can bet I kept my feet
firmly on the brakes during that episode.
Cal B.
F1 116 125 hours
Message 13
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| Subject: | Hot Starting Rocket |
I concur with the start procedure suggested by Cal but I modify it by,
after flooding the hot engine, by cutting the mixture to full off. The
engine will always catch as you spin the engine with the starter. As it
passes from the flooded condition toward lean cutoff, the fuel mixture,
at some point, it will be perfect. When the engine catches, there will
be enough momentum in the engine that pushing the mixture full rich will
allow the engine to continue to run. This techniques saves having to
carry a ruler to measure the 1" of mixture movement. :-)
Chuck Jensen
[Chuck Jensen] -----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
CalBru@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hot Starting Rocket
My hot start procedure from my checklist, as provided by Ron Carter:
HOT START
Mixture Closed
Throttle Closed
Fuel Pump run it until you hear it load up
Starter run starter --BTW, my starter switch is on my stick
so I can hold it back
Mixture to 1 inch Upon firing, full rich, throttle slowly move the
mixture forward no more than one inch( while running the starter) When
if fires, push it full forward and add some throttle Keep the stick
full back during all this
This has always worked for me, and I appreciate Ron's telling me how to
do it. Before I learned this, I jump started two times. Once at my
hangar--no big deal, but once at a small airport duing the test hours.
His rust bucket Nissan PU was parked between my wing and tail! You can
bet I kept my feet firmly on the brakes during that episode.
Cal B.
F1 116 125 hours
_____
Make AOL Your Homepage.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Hot Starting Rocket |
That sounds like how Continental would start, except that the mix is full
rich and the throttle is advanced slowly. I believe that the Contis have a
boost pump on the throttle, not sure about that at all. But the Lycs are a
different beast altogether.
My theory behind intentional flooding is that I get to start from a known
point in the procedure. Most failed starts I had before adopting this
procedure were because I didn't know whether it was flooded or starved and
cranked the battery dead before I could figure out what to do. Since I
cannot intentionally starve the cylinders of fuel, I went the other
direction. Fuel pumps on until fuel spills out the overflow line, fuel
cutoff, full throttle and crank until it fires (burst of power) and then
lots of hand movement to keep it running. Works every time, even the 380HP
geared motor in the Commander 680.
Nico
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JOHNTMEY@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:37 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: Hot Starting Rocket
Current thread reminds me of question of hot starting the IO-540. (cold
start never a problem)
Every now and then, mine gets cranky. Won't start hot. I have an Airflow
recirculating valve which seems to complicate the matter. After pumping, I
can't tell if I'm wet or dry. Guess I don't know how to use it.
My best bet is to open the oil door after parking... then later re-start
with no recirculation, no prime, mix cut-off, throttle 1/2 open. It usually
pops right off while enrichening mixture, then will smooth-out with a short
burst of electric pump. Requires lots of hand movements
Any other hints ?
JohnM N5800
_____
Make AOL Your Homepage.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: jumpstarting a Rocket |
I retarded both the mag and the Electronic ignition to 20 deg today.
I'll fly it tomorrow a.m. and will report back.
----- Original Message -----
From: Wernerworld
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Another thing that can cause a similar symptom is ignition firing too
early and hitting before TDC.
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Type is better, then I can read it when I have time.
If the engine is turning over, hydrostatic lock is out of the
question. Without trying to instruct you, hydrostatic locks ruined
engines where one cylinder was flooded with more fuel than the
compression chamber's capacity and a cylinder earlier in the firing
order fires first. There is no way that the fired-up engine can stop on
the flooded cylinder and it usually bends the conrod. (and ruins plans
for flying). If the engine turns through all cylinders, there is no
hydrostatic lock.
It is either flooded or fuel-starved, if the ignition is firing. For
fuel injected Lyc hot-starts, I used to intentionally flood the engine
and then crank it with fuel cut off and full throttle - but that was in
a trike. The Rocket might well change position quickly with that
technique.
I would agree with the other folks that you may have to focus on the
battery and the starter, to increase battery capacity and/or reduce
starter load.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 5:59 AM
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Thanks for all the troubleshooting tips. I'll address each one here.
I have the B&C starter, two new PC680 batteries, I used number two
aircraft wire from battery to firewall for both Pos and Neg., The Neg
cable home runs to the forest of tabs on the firewall, then on to engine
block.
I will check all grounds and positive connections all the way to the
starter, today and will report back.
As for Hydrostatic lock, I'm not sure how that could be the problem
unless a whole lot of fuel got into the cylinder, is that reasonable?
My hot start symptom is: normal rotation and some firing but no start,
as I continue to crank, the high resistance wins over the batteries and
the cranking degrades to one or two blades before stopping. After
cranking and no start, I feel like the engine is not getting any fuel so
I advance the mixture midway. That is about the time the battery is
running down (hydrostatic lock?).
As for hot start technique, I understand that full throttle and
mixture off with no prime is the general recommendation, however, I have
been cautioned about using that procedure in a Harmon Rocket because the
tail has come off the ground and scarred to poo out of the owner. Any
comments here?
I was hoping someone has come up with a simple and permanent charging
and jumpstart system where the battery cover would not have to be
removed/replaced. I would like to avoid an external opening type system
as per Bob Nuckolls design.
Thanks for al the help,
If you would rather talk than type, call anytime. 502 235-3599 or
send my you number, I'll call you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Martin
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:09 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Jim
Typically these engines turn over much easier hot than
cold, especially with higher compression pistons. That has been my
experience.
Since you have eliminated the battery issue then check all big lead
connections, especially ground connections. Take the starter off and
take it to your local automotive starter shop and have it checked out.
Also next time the engine is hot, be careful, and try to turn the prop
by hand to see if there are any restrictions. Hydrostatic lock is not
usual in this type of engine but maybe there is something else going on
in the engine itself.
My bets are on the starter. I have had two new skytec starters that
have had to be replaced out of the last four airplanes. The
replacements have worked fine.
Tom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: September 30, 2007 10:16 PM
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Subject: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
Does anyone know of a product that allows one to jumpstart a Rocket
when the battery has run down?
I have 10 to 1 pistons and after flying for a while, getting gas, I
am unable to start due to very high resistance to cranking caused, I
assume by the hot engine. After cooling for 2 hours or so, she turns
easy and starts right up. I thought the problem was with the P680s
being 4-5 years old so I replaced them. No improvement to the problem.
All suggestions welcome.
TIA,
Jim Stone
Release Date: 29/09/2007 9:46 PM
29/09/2007 9:46 PM
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Edition. 10/1/2007 10:20 AM
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: jumpstarting a Rocket |
The timing to check is the one while cranking. Usually it is set to
TDC. I just replaced a mag and switched to a model that starts at 5
ATDC and runs at 25 deg.
Russ
----- Original Message -----
I retarded both the mag and the Electronic ignition to 20 deg today.
I'll fly it tomorrow a.m. and will report back.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Hot Starting Rocket |
I can't believe the heat that comes out the dipstick door when pointed
into the wind. That really helps after a failed attempt.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHNTMEY@aol.com
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: Hot Starting Rocket
Current thread reminds me of question of hot starting the IO-540.
(cold start never a problem)
Every now and then, mine gets cranky. Won't start hot. I have an
Airflow recirculating valve which seems to complicate the matter. After
pumping, I can't tell if I'm wet or dry. Guess I don't know how to use
it.
My best bet is to open the oil door after parking... then later
re-start with no recirculation, no prime, mix cut-off, throttle 1/2
open. It usually pops right off while enrichening mixture, then will
smooth-out with a short burst of electric pump. Requires lots of hand
movements
Any other hints ?
JohnM N5800
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Make AOL Your Homepage.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Hot Starting Rocket |
I'll give that a try.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: CalBru@aol.com
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hot Starting Rocket
My hot start procedure from my checklist, as provided by Ron Carter:
HOT START
Mixture Closed
Throttle Closed
Fuel Pump run it until you hear it load up
Starter run starter --BTW, my starter switch is on my stick
so I can hold it back
Mixture to 1 inch Upon firing, full rich, throttle slowly move the
mixture forward no more than one inch( while running the starter) When
if fires, push it full forward and add some throttle Keep the stick
full back during all this
This has always worked for me, and I appreciate Ron's telling me how
to do it. Before I learned this, I jump started two times. Once at
my hangar--no big deal, but once at a small airport duing the test
hours. His rust bucket Nissan PU was parked between my wing and tail!
You can bet I kept my feet firmly on the brakes during that episode.
Cal B.
F1 116 125 hours
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Make AOL Your Homepage.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Hot Starting Rocket |
Thanks Chuck,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Jensen
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Hot Starting Rocket
I concur with the start procedure suggested by Cal but I modify it by,
after flooding the hot engine, by cutting the mixture to full off. The
engine will always catch as you spin the engine with the starter. As it
passes from the flooded condition toward lean cutoff, the fuel mixture,
at some point, it will be perfect. When the engine catches, there will
be enough momentum in the engine that pushing the mixture full rich will
allow the engine to continue to run. This techniques saves having to
carry a ruler to measure the 1" of mixture movement. :-)
Chuck Jensen
[Chuck Jensen] -----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
CalBru@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:00 PM
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Hot Starting Rocket
My hot start procedure from my checklist, as provided by Ron Carter:
HOT START
Mixture Closed
Throttle Closed
Fuel Pump run it until you hear it load up
Starter run starter --BTW, my starter switch is on my
stick so I can hold it back
Mixture to 1 inch Upon firing, full rich, throttle slowly move
the mixture forward no more than one inch( while running the starter)
When if fires, push it full forward and add some throttle Keep the
stick full back during all this
This has always worked for me, and I appreciate Ron's telling me how
to do it. Before I learned this, I jump started two times. Once at
my hangar--no big deal, but once at a small airport duing the test
hours. His rust bucket Nissan PU was parked between my wing and tail!
You can bet I kept my feet firmly on the brakes during that episode.
Cal B.
F1 116 125 hours
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Make AOL Your Homepage.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: jumpstarting a Rocket |
The impulse coupler on my slick mag fires at 25 deg prior to what ever
you have it set at during start. So at 20 deg normal position, during
start it should fire at 5 deg ATDC, like your new one. I'm thinking
this will help with the battery drain problem during a hot start.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Wernerworld
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: jumpstarting a Rocket
The timing to check is the one while cranking. Usually it is set to
TDC. I just replaced a mag and switched to a model that starts at 5
ATDC and runs at 25 deg.
Russ
----- Original Message -----
I retarded both the mag and the Electronic ignition to 20 deg today.
I'll fly it tomorrow a.m. and will report back.
Message 21
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Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Rocket-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Rocket-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Rocket-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Rocket-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Rocket-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Rocket-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Rocket-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Rocket-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Rocket-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Rocket
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Rocket-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Rocket-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Rocket-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Rocket-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Rocket-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official Rocket-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Rocket-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Rocket-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Rocket-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Rocket-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Rocket-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Rocket-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Rocket-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Rocket-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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