Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:39 AM - Re: first10 hr report (Rob Ray)
2. 06:21 AM - On vertical rolls... (ACTIVE NZ - Andrew)
3. 06:50 AM - Re: On vertical rolls... (Tom Martin)
4. 07:48 AM - Re: On vertical rolls... (Michael W Stewart)
5. 10:03 AM - Re: first10 hr report (Jim Stone)
6. 02:08 PM - Re: first10 hr report (Michael W Stewart)
7. 03:21 PM - Re: first10 hr report (Jim Stone)
8. 03:52 PM - Re: first10 hr report (Rob Ray)
9. 03:57 PM - Re: On vertical rolls... (Rob Ray)
10. 03:57 PM - Re: first10 hr report (CalBru@aol.com)
11. 04:05 PM - Re: first10 hr report (Danny)
12. 04:18 PM - On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting other Rocket pilots..... (ACTIVE NZ - Andrew)
13. 04:35 PM - ...and a note on safety.... (ACTIVE NZ - Andrew)
14. 05:12 PM - Re: first10 hr report (Jim Stone)
15. 05:14 PM - Re: first10 hr report (Jim Stone)
16. 08:40 PM - Re: On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting other Rocket pilots..... (Tom Gummo)
17. 11:36 PM - Re: first10 hr report (nico css)
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :)
-
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com> wrote:
From: Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first- 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | On vertical rolls... |
...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best
technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed,
technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already
do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a
reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I
feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it
seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's
old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is
that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals
in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our
Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat
there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to
rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my
dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do
vertical rolls very well. Anyway...
I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers?
Andrew, in NZ...
________________________________
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
________________________________
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used
cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> .
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| Subject: | On vertical rolls... |
Andrew
I am not trying to take the fun out of flying but our rocket
community had a loss of two people last weekend that we should all take note
of. There are no official reports out yet but here is what is known from
the news media and from pictures. The aircraft was seen to be doing
aerobatics before the accident. The aircraft landed upside down with no
sign of skid marks. This would lead one to believe it was in an inverted
spin. What we need to do is to find out what type of situation would have
caused this scenario. Be careful, these are fun fast airplanes that can do
aerobatics, but when things go wrong they go wrong fast.
Tom Martin
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ -
Andrew
Sent: June 26, 2008 9:21 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best
technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed,
technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do
loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a
reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I
feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it seems
dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pilots,
and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no
appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero
instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most senior
instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat there and coached me through
all the manuevers, without access to rudders...but he's current off on
deployment somewhere. So most of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria,
which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway...
I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers?
Andrew, in NZ...
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
_____
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient HYPERLINK
"http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007" \nused cars.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Rocket-List
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG.
4:13 PM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: On vertical rolls... |
Toms well stated comments not withstanding.
I recommend beginning your vert roll training slowly. They are very
disorienting. Start with quarter rolls, then half and slowly work your
way
up to as many as you can get. Its the pressure on the elev that is the
key
and you will get that feel as you increase the amount of roll you carry
. My
early training techniques were quartrer stop, quarter stop, quarter sto
p on
the way up. Think of it as 4 point rolls in the vertical. Then halfs an
d so
forth. The key is an unloaded plane. If your carrying any G on the plan
e in
the vertical, you will know it.
I can do 5 vert rolls in the S8 before I have to quit and hold it stopp
ed
before its time to fall off or do a hammer head. Takes a couple of seco
nds
for my brain to stop spinning. I have to stop rolls and stop brain spin
ning
before I get going back down hill again, else I get sick.
At least for the RV, torque rolls seem impossible for me past one-ish
Mike
"ACTIVE NZ -
Andrew"
<andrew@nzactive.
To
com> <rocket-list@matronics.com>
Sent by:
cc
owner-rocket-list
-server@matronics Subj
ect
.com Rocket-List: On vertical rolls..
.
06/26/2008 09:20
AM
Please respond to
rocket-list@matro
nics.com
...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best
technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed,
technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already
do
loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a
reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so
I
feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it s
eems
dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pil
ots,
and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a.
no
appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my
aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most sen
ior
instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat there and coached me thro
ugh
all the manuevers, without access to rudders...but he's current off on
deployment somewhere. So most of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citab
ria,
which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway...
I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers?
Andrew, in NZ...
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [
mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used c
ars.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">
http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com
/c
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
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============
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please
describe how you do it.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Ray
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :)
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
wrote:
From: Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars.
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
Pull up at any speed over 100.
In the vertical look straight out the wing and keep yourself 90 to the
ground all the way up. Elevator used only to maintain the vertical.
Casual glances at airspeed, but always looking straight out that wing.
I
look left only from habit in an Extra that had the triangles on the win
g
left side. Just pick a side and stick to it.
~40kts feed left rudder, right aileron (NO ELEVATOR)
Relax stick as the nose swings around.
When you get better, let the speed get slower and slower and make your
control inputs more kicking em in rather than feeding em in. Eventually
you
want to be stopped at the top and kick in the inputs. Thats when they l
ook
and FEEL beautiful. It is a very rewarding maneuver.
Also as you get better, you will need opposite rudder when the nose swi
ngs
around and points down. Opposite rudder stops the nose from swinging pa
st
the vertical down line.
Mike
"Jim Stone"
<jrstone@insightb
b.com>
To
Sent by: <rocket-list@matronics.com>
owner-rocket-list
cc
-server@matronics
.com Subj
ect
Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr repo
rt
06/26/2008 12:59
PM
Please respond to
rocket-list@matro
nics.com
Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please desc
ribe
how you do it.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Ray
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :)
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
wrote:
From: Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars.
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D
href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"'>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
Awesome, thanks,
Jim
Louisville KY
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael W Stewart
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Pull up at any speed over 100.
In the vertical look straight out the wing and keep yourself 90 to the
ground all the way up. Elevator used only to maintain the vertical.
Casual glances at airspeed, but always looking straight out that wing.
I look left only from habit in an Extra that had the triangles on the
wing left side. Just pick a side and stick to it.
~40kts feed left rudder, right aileron (NO ELEVATOR)
Relax stick as the nose swings around.
When you get better, let the speed get slower and slower and make your
control inputs more kicking em in rather than feeding em in. Eventually
you want to be stopped at the top and kick in the inputs. Thats when
they look and FEEL beautiful. It is a very rewarding maneuver.
Also as you get better, you will need opposite rudder when the nose
swings around and points down. Opposite rudder stops the nose from
swinging past the vertical down line.
Mike
"Jim Stone" ---06/26/2008 01:14:53 PM---Anyone able to do a nice
Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks,
"Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Sent by: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
06/26/2008 12:59 PM Please respond to
rocket-list@matronics.com
To
<rocket-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please
describe how you do it.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Ray
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :)
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
wrote:
From: Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient
used cars.
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
Jim,
-
I practice hammerheads often, perfecting them requires a good feel for when
to kick rudder.Waiting too long and it stalls vertical with a pronounced n
ose drop. Too early and you skid uphill with a vertical rudder turn.
- -I start from a vertical pull, crosschecking the wingtips and canopy
rail 90 degrees to the horizon reducing throttle to 1/4, not idle. As airsp
eed decays to a "potatoe" prior to dead stop I add power and kick full rudd
er and full opposite aileron. The big IO-540 does the rest, bringing the no
se around to pure vertical down, add power, recover.
-
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com> wrote:
From: Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket?- If so please descri
be how you do it.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Ray
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :)
-
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com> wrote:
From: Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first- 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"'>http://www.matr
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: On vertical rolls... |
Patty Wagstaff once stated vertical rolls were her hardest item to perfect.
I believe her, in the F16, pulling vertical at 5000' and 500 knots the upp
er limit of the airspace at 28K was the limit, not the number of rolls it w
ould do! In the Rocket, it's maintaining a vertical line while rolling. The
y can-be disorienting, but counting outloud usually helps and looking lef
t and right to insure vertical...
-
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com> wrote:
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
Toms well stated comments not withstanding.
I recommend beginning your vert roll training slowly. They are very disorie
nting. Start with quarter rolls, then half and slowly work your way up to a
s many as you can get. Its the pressure on the elev that is the key and you
will get that feel as you increase the amount of roll you carry. My early
training techniques were quartrer stop, quarter stop, quarter stop on the w
ay up. Think of it as 4 point rolls in the vertical. Then halfs and so fort
h. The key is an unloaded plane. If your carrying any G on the plane in the
vertical, you will know it.
I can do 5 vert rolls in the S8 before I have to quit and hold it stopped b
efore its time to fall off or do a hammer head. Takes a couple of seconds f
or my brain to stop spinning. I have to stop rolls and stop brain spinning
before I get going back down hill again, else I get sick.
At least for the RV, torque rolls seem impossible for me past one-ish
Mike
"ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" ---06/26/2008 09:35:22 AM---...just a question on whet
her someone-who-knows can tell me the best technique for vertical rolls in
a Rocket. Entry speed, exi
"ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" <andrew@nzactive.com>
Sent by: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
06/26/2008 09:20 AM
Please respond to
rocket-list@matronics.com
To
<rocket-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best techni
que for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed, technique? I d
o have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do loops, rolls, &
various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a reasonable amount of
spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I feel happy enough to go
out and give it a go (but would listen, if it seems dumb to try vertical r
olls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pilots, and bold pilots.....)
My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no appropriate CFIs arou
nd here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero instruction in the
Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave gu
y who just calmly sat there and coached me through all the manuevers, witho
ut access to rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So mos
t of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course
doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway...
I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers?
Andrew, in NZ...
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhr
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
I am assuming that the vert rolls and hammerheads require inverted fuel and
oil systems?
Cal B.
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
Please, please be careful about learning this stuff on your own. I love acro but
I've also lost a few friends to it. Hammerheads can end up as a very interesting
entry into an inverted spin if you get too slow at the top and don't use
enough opposite aileron. Get some training from a qualified acro instructor. It
will be the best money you have ever spent and a real hoot to boot.
Sermon over
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Pull up at any speed over 100.
In the vertical look straight out the wing and keep yourself 90 to the ground all
the way up. Elevator used only to maintain the vertical.
Casual glances at airspeed, but always looking straight out that wing. I look left
only from habit in an Extra that had the triangles on the wing left side.
Just pick a side and stick to it.
~40kts feed left rudder, right aileron (NO ELEVATOR)
Relax stick as the nose swings around.
When you get better, let the speed get slower and slower and make your control
inputs more kicking em in rather than feeding em in. Eventually you want to be
stopped at the top and kick in the inputs. Thats when they look and FEEL beautiful.
It is a very rewarding maneuver.
Also as you get better, you will need opposite rudder when the nose swings around
and points down. Opposite rudder stops the nose from swinging past the vertical
down line.
Mike
"Jim Stone" ---06/26/2008 01:14:53 PM---Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in
their Rocket? If so please describe how you do it. Thanks,
"Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Sent by: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
06/26/2008 12:59 PM
Please respond to
rocket-list@matronics.com
To
<rocket-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how
you do it.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Ray
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :)
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com> wrote:
From: Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
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Message 12
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| Subject: | On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting other |
Rocket pilots.....
Hmmmm. Upon reflection:
1. Many thanks for the technique advice, you guys, I appreciate it, and
wil give it a go......when....
2. I'm satisfied I can do it safely, and recover from anything. I
thought I could, but maybe Tom's right. I have not, in fact, done
inverted spin recoveries in the Rocket, although I spun the Citabria
till my instructor got sick. I read about the recent Rocket accident,
(TX?) and I was very sorry to hear about it. I've lost a few friends,
and it's never easy. So easy to forget the risks we deal with, although
a near-fatal training accident 7 years ago solved that problem for me. I
guess, at the back of my mind,
I was sort guessing that I "knew" the cause of the accident (low level
stunting) whereas in fact, of course, I don't. My hubris, I guess, and
assumptions based on reading lots of NTSB reports. But Tom's right - we
don't know, yet. It's not "taking the fun out of it", Tom, it's
acknowledging that risk management is the inseparable flipside of the
aviation coin, and I appreciate your thoughts. I'll wait till Jim, my
military friend, is back from deployment, and we'll go and push the
envelope together. Thanks again for the advice.
You know, I mainly do short-strip/rough strip/NZ mountain flying in my
Rocket, which is lots of fun. I live just on the verge of the Southern
Alps, so there are plenty of glaciers, mountains, "canyons" and so on to
go and fly around/over/thru. This may sound sacrilegous, and I'm sorry
and surprised to have to say it, but I find aeros in the Rocket a bit
boring compared to that. Any suggestions as to other interesting
aerobatic manuevers in the Rocket? I find it bizarre that I find aeros a
tad boring in the Rocket, and I wonder if I'm just doing the wrong
stuff. Admittedly I'm only doing the more basic manuevres. Any
thoughts/suggestions?
And any aerobatically (or not) flying Rocket pilots interested in taking
me up and showing me what you and YOUR Rocket get up to, on my dime, (at
$5.50 a gallon it BETTER be on my dime, but you try running a 340!) next
time I'm in the US? I have a Cessna 340 based north of LA, so I get
around the US a bit. Even did a diversionary landing into Apple Valley
on our last X/C to Houston, and was thinking, damn, I know one of the
Rocketeers lives here - (is it Tom? wasn't sure) as our fuel pressure
gauge filled up with, er, FUEL! - but we met a capable and friendly
mechanic quickly, tied off the lines before the aeroplane blew up, and
were on our way to Houston within an hour. Anyway. Next time I'm tooling
around the US/Western Canada, would enjoy meeting and maybe flying with
(or not) other Rocketeers, particularly if you're doing interesting
aerobatic stuff in your Rocket, but no worries if not. I just became the
second Rocket owner in NZ, as one has finally been built in-country, and
there's another just been started down my way, but I've put 400 hours on
mine without anyone to compare notes with. Would enjoy doing so next
time I'm in North America. Feel free to email me offlist on
andrew@activenewzealand.com.
Andrew
________________________________
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:01 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
Andrew
I am not trying to take the fun out of flying but our rocket
community had a loss of two people last weekend that we should all take
note of. There are no official reports out yet but here is what is
known from the news media and from pictures. The aircraft was seen to
be doing aerobatics before the accident. The aircraft landed upside
down with no sign of skid marks. This would lead one to believe it was
in an inverted spin. What we need to do is to find out what type of
situation would have caused this scenario. Be careful, these are fun
fast airplanes that can do aerobatics, but when things go wrong they go
wrong fast.
Tom Martin
________________________________
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ -
Andrew
Sent: June 26, 2008 9:21 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best
technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed,
technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already
do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a
reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I
feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it
seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's
old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is
that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals
in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our
Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat
there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to
rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my
dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do
vertical rolls very well. Anyway...
I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers?
Andrew, in NZ...
________________________________
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
________________________________
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used
cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> .
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron
h
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG.
Checked by AVG.
Message 13
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| Subject: | ...and a note on safety.... |
Re learning acro on your own, Danny,
I agree. I was exploring the possibility of adding new manuevres to a
base of already having done quite a lot of dual aerobatic training,
starting over 10 years ago. I'm no expert, but can do the basics
reasonably safely, I think. So, for instance, we never did 4 point
rolls, dual, but I was happy enough learning on my own, with a bit of
reading, cos it looks awfully like a slightly jerky aileron roll to me.
Vertical plane manuevers, though, you're probably right. I guess that's
an advantage of an online "community" - you can think out loud before
you actually go and DO (fly) anything. Problem is, like I said, there
are no truly dual capable Rockets in NZ - my military guy is very brave,
I think, sitting back there calmly coaching me, with no rudders. But
it's all good - I'll wait till he gets back....
As for that F16 pull vertical for 28,000 feet routine, my word. Can't be
too many aircraft that make the Rocket look slow, but that's one of
them. I'd love to try that - reckon if I just rang up the USAF they'd
give me a go? :) Although (warning, editorial coming up) I've flown a
number of military jet trainers - Soko Galeb, L-39, Fouga, T-33 - and if
I had to choose ONE aircraft, with an unlimited fuel budget, I'd choose
a Rocket over any of them. It's hard to describe why, exactly, but
there's something about 4000 fpm in the Rocket that seems totally
different to 4000 fpm in the Soko. I guess it comes down to
responsiveness & subtlety, or something. But yeah, you'd prise my Rocket
out of my cold, dead hands, or whatever it is you Americans say :)
Andrew
________________________________
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:01 AM
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
Andrew
I am not trying to take the fun out of flying but our rocket
community had a loss of two people last weekend that we should all take
note of. There are no official reports out yet but here is what is
known from the news media and from pictures. The aircraft was seen to
be doing aerobatics before the accident. The aircraft landed upside
down with no sign of skid marks. This would lead one to believe it was
in an inverted spin. What we need to do is to find out what type of
situation would have caused this scenario. Be careful, these are fun
fast airplanes that can do aerobatics, but when things go wrong they go
wrong fast.
Tom Martin
________________________________
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ -
Andrew
Sent: June 26, 2008 9:21 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best
technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed,
technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already
do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a
reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I
feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it
seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's
old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is
that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals
in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our
Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat
there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to
rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my
dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do
vertical rolls very well. Anyway...
I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers?
Andrew, in NZ...
________________________________
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
________________________________
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used
cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> .
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron
h
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG.
Checked by AVG.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
Thanks Smokey,
Full rudder into and aileron opposite sure sounds like pro spin controls
but I do realize they are momentary and must be neutralized. Keeping
the elevator neutral will help with avoiding a spin. Thanks for your
technique and I may strap on a chute soon and give it a try.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Ray
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Jim,
I practice hammerheads often, perfecting them requires a good
feel for when to kick rudder.Waiting too long and it stalls vertical
with a pronounced nose drop. Too early and you skid uphill with a
vertical rudder turn.
I start from a vertical pull, crosschecking the wingtips and
canopy rail 90 degrees to the horizon reducing throttle to 1/4, not
idle. As airspeed decays to a "potatoe" prior to dead stop I add power
and kick full rudder and full opposite aileron. The big IO-540 does the
rest, bringing the nose around to pure vertical down, add power,
recover.
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com> wrote:
From: Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 11:59 AM
Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so
please describe how you do it.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Ray
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other
direction :)
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Im7shannon@aol.com
<Im7shannon@aol.com> wrote:
From: Im7shannon@aol.com <Im7shannon@aol.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 1:32 AM
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
------------------------------------------------------------
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: first10 hr report |
Inverted oil, fuel and perhaps a counterweighted prop would be good.
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: CalBru@aol.com
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
I am assuming that the vert rolls and hammerheads require inverted
fuel and oil systems?
Cal B.
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting |
other Rocket pilots.....
Next time you are in APV stop by.
Tom "GummiBear" Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: ACTIVE NZ - Andrew
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:15 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and
meeting other Rocket pilots.....
Hmmmm. Upon reflection:
1. Many thanks for the technique advice, you guys, I appreciate it,
and wil give it a go......when....
2. I'm satisfied I can do it safely, and recover from anything. I
thought I could, but maybe Tom's right. I have not, in fact, done
inverted spin recoveries in the Rocket, although I spun the Citabria
till my instructor got sick. I read about the recent Rocket accident,
(TX?) and I was very sorry to hear about it. I've lost a few friends,
and it's never easy. So easy to forget the risks we deal with, although
a near-fatal training accident 7 years ago solved that problem for me. I
guess, at the back of my mind,
I was sort guessing that I "knew" the cause of the accident (low level
stunting) whereas in fact, of course, I don't. My hubris, I guess, and
assumptions based on reading lots of NTSB reports. But Tom's right - we
don't know, yet. It's not "taking the fun out of it", Tom, it's
acknowledging that risk management is the inseparable flipside of the
aviation coin, and I appreciate your thoughts. I'll wait till Jim, my
military friend, is back from deployment, and we'll go and push the
envelope together. Thanks again for the advice.
You know, I mainly do short-strip/rough strip/NZ mountain flying in my
Rocket, which is lots of fun. I live just on the verge of the Southern
Alps, so there are plenty of glaciers, mountains, "canyons" and so on to
go and fly around/over/thru. This may sound sacrilegous, and I'm sorry
and surprised to have to say it, but I find aeros in the Rocket a bit
boring compared to that. Any suggestions as to other interesting
aerobatic manuevers in the Rocket? I find it bizarre that I find aeros a
tad boring in the Rocket, and I wonder if I'm just doing the wrong
stuff. Admittedly I'm only doing the more basic manuevres. Any
thoughts/suggestions?
And any aerobatically (or not) flying Rocket pilots interested in
taking me up and showing me what you and YOUR Rocket get up to, on my
dime, (at $5.50 a gallon it BETTER be on my dime, but you try running a
340!) next time I'm in the US? I have a Cessna 340 based north of LA, so
I get around the US a bit. Even did a diversionary landing into Apple
Valley on our last X/C to Houston, and was thinking, damn, I know one of
the Rocketeers lives here - (is it Tom? wasn't sure) as our fuel
pressure gauge filled up with, er, FUEL! - but we met a capable and
friendly mechanic quickly, tied off the lines before the aeroplane blew
up, and were on our way to Houston within an hour. Anyway. Next time I'm
tooling around the US/Western Canada, would enjoy meeting and maybe
flying with (or not) other Rocketeers, particularly if you're doing
interesting aerobatic stuff in your Rocket, but no worries if not. I
just became the second Rocket owner in NZ, as one has finally been built
in-country, and there's another just been started down my way, but I've
put 400 hours on mine without anyone to compare notes with. Would enjoy
doing so next time I'm in North America. Feel free to email me offlist
on andrew@activenewzealand.com.
Andrew
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:01 AM
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
Andrew
I am not trying to take the fun out of flying but our
rocket community had a loss of two people last weekend that we should
all take note of. There are no official reports out yet but here is
what is known from the news media and from pictures. The aircraft was
seen to be doing aerobatics before the accident. The aircraft landed
upside down with no sign of skid marks. This would lead one to believe
it was in an inverted spin. What we need to do is to find out what type
of situation would have caused this scenario. Be careful, these are fun
fast airplanes that can do aerobatics, but when things go wrong they go
wrong fast.
Tom Martin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ -
Andrew
Sent: June 26, 2008 9:21 AM
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls...
...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best
technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed,
technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already
do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a
reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I
feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it
seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's
old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is
that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals
in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our
Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat
there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to
rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my
dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do
vertical rolls very well. Anyway...
I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers?
Andrew, in NZ...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
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Message 17
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| Subject: | first10 hr report |
Well, you attached seven pictures and they were all blank. But then the file
names werer "blank" something, I should've known.
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Please, please be careful about learning this stuff on your own. I love acro
but I've also lost a few friends to it. Hammerheads can end up as a very
interesting entry into an inverted spin if you get too slow at the top and
don't use enough opposite aileron. Get some training from a qualified acro
instructor. It will be the best money you have ever spent and a real hoot to
boot.
Sermon over
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Pull up at any speed over 100.
In the vertical look straight out the wing and keep yourself 90 to the
ground all the way up. Elevator used only to maintain the vertical.
Casual glances at airspeed, but always looking straight out that wing. I
look left only from habit in an Extra that had the triangles on the wing
left side. Just pick a side and stick to it.
~40kts feed left rudder, right aileron (NO ELEVATOR)
Relax stick as the nose swings around.
When you get better, let the speed get slower and slower and make your
control inputs more kicking em in rather than feeding em in. Eventually you
want to be stopped at the top and kick in the inputs. Thats when they look
and FEEL beautiful. It is a very rewarding maneuver.
Also as you get better, you will need opposite rudder when the nose swings
around and points down. Opposite rudder stops the nose from swinging past
the vertical down line.
Mike
Inactive hide details for "Jim Stone" ---06/26/2008 01:14:53 PM---Anyone
able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe how you
do it. Thanks,
"Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Sent by: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
06/26/2008 12:59 PM
Please respond to
rocket-list@matronics.com
To
<rocket-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Anyone able to do a nice Hammerhead in their Rocket? If so please describe
how you do it.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:smokyray@yahoo.com> Rob Ray
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
Three, but the third ends up vertical in the other direction :)
Smokey
--- On Thu, 6/26/08, <mailto:Im7shannon@aol.com> Im7shannon@aol.com <
<mailto:Im7shannon@aol.com> Im7shannon@aol.com> wrote:
From: <mailto:Im7shannon@aol.com> Im7shannon@aol.com <
<mailto:Im7shannon@aol.com> Im7shannon@aol.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report
450KS first 15 hour report is as follows:
1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far.
2. Hey Smokey how many can you do?
Kevin
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