---------------------------------------------------------- Rocket-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/30/08: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:46 AM - Re: On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting other Rocket pilots..... (ACTIVE NZ - Andrew) 2. 12:47 PM - Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (Larry James) 3. 05:08 PM - Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (Fred Weaver) 4. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (Jim Stone) 5. 10:08 PM - Re: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (nico css) 6. 10:14 PM - Re: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (ACTIVE NZ - Andrew) 7. 10:51 PM - Re: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH (Tom Gummo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting other Rocket pilots..... From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" Will do, Tom. It's real close to Agua Dulce, where my 340 is based right now. Andrew ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Gummo Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting other Rocket pilots..... Next time you are in APV stop by. Tom "GummiBear" Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: ACTIVE NZ - Andrew To: rocket-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:15 PM Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls, recovering from them, and meeting other Rocket pilots..... Hmmmm. Upon reflection: 1. Many thanks for the technique advice, you guys, I appreciate it, and wil give it a go......when.... 2. I'm satisfied I can do it safely, and recover from anything. I thought I could, but maybe Tom's right. I have not, in fact, done inverted spin recoveries in the Rocket, although I spun the Citabria till my instructor got sick. I read about the recent Rocket accident, (TX?) and I was very sorry to hear about it. I've lost a few friends, and it's never easy. So easy to forget the risks we deal with, although a near-fatal training accident 7 years ago solved that problem for me. I guess, at the back of my mind, I was sort guessing that I "knew" the cause of the accident (low level stunting) whereas in fact, of course, I don't. My hubris, I guess, and assumptions based on reading lots of NTSB reports. But Tom's right - we don't know, yet. It's not "taking the fun out of it", Tom, it's acknowledging that risk management is the inseparable flipside of the aviation coin, and I appreciate your thoughts. I'll wait till Jim, my military friend, is back from deployment, and we'll go and push the envelope together. Thanks again for the advice. You know, I mainly do short-strip/rough strip/NZ mountain flying in my Rocket, which is lots of fun. I live just on the verge of the Southern Alps, so there are plenty of glaciers, mountains, "canyons" and so on to go and fly around/over/thru. This may sound sacrilegous, and I'm sorry and surprised to have to say it, but I find aeros in the Rocket a bit boring compared to that. Any suggestions as to other interesting aerobatic manuevers in the Rocket? I find it bizarre that I find aeros a tad boring in the Rocket, and I wonder if I'm just doing the wrong stuff. Admittedly I'm only doing the more basic manuevres. Any thoughts/suggestions? And any aerobatically (or not) flying Rocket pilots interested in taking me up and showing me what you and YOUR Rocket get up to, on my dime, (at $5.50 a gallon it BETTER be on my dime, but you try running a 340!) next time I'm in the US? I have a Cessna 340 based north of LA, so I get around the US a bit. Even did a diversionary landing into Apple Valley on our last X/C to Houston, and was thinking, damn, I know one of the Rocketeers lives here - (is it Tom? wasn't sure) as our fuel pressure gauge filled up with, er, FUEL! - but we met a capable and friendly mechanic quickly, tied off the lines before the aeroplane blew up, and were on our way to Houston within an hour. Anyway. Next time I'm tooling around the US/Western Canada, would enjoy meeting and maybe flying with (or not) other Rocketeers, particularly if you're doing interesting aerobatic stuff in your Rocket, but no worries if not. I just became the second Rocket owner in NZ, as one has finally been built in-country, and there's another just been started down my way, but I've put 400 hours on mine without anyone to compare notes with. Would enjoy doing so next time I'm in North America. Feel free to email me offlist on andrew@activenewzealand.com. Andrew ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Martin Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:01 AM To: rocket-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... Andrew I am not trying to take the fun out of flying but our rocket community had a loss of two people last weekend that we should all take note of. There are no official reports out yet but here is what is known from the news media and from pictures. The aircraft was seen to be doing aerobatics before the accident. The aircraft landed upside down with no sign of skid marks. This would lead one to believe it was in an inverted spin. What we need to do is to find out what type of situation would have caused this scenario. Be careful, these are fun fast airplanes that can do aerobatics, but when things go wrong they go wrong fast. Tom Martin ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ - Andrew Sent: June 26, 2008 9:21 AM To: rocket-list@matronics.com Subject: Rocket-List: On vertical rolls... ...just a question on whether someone-who-knows can tell me the best technique for vertical rolls in a Rocket. Entry speed, exit speed, technique? I do have an aerobatic rating (required in NZ), and already do loops, rolls, & various combinations thereof, stall turns, as well a reasonable amount of spin training, botched manuever recovery, etc, so I feel happy enough to go out and give it a go (but would listen, if it seems dumb to try vertical rolls without an appropriate CFI - there's old pilots, and bold pilots.....) My problem with dual in my HRII is that I have a. no appropriate CFIs around here and b. no rudder pedals in the rear, so my aero instruction in the Rocket was with one of our Air Force's most senior instructors...a brave guy who just calmly sat there and coached me through all the manuevers, without access to rudders...but he's current off on deployment somewhere. So most of my dual aerobatics has been in a Citabria, which of course doesn't do vertical rolls very well. Anyway... I haven't done vertical rolls yet. Any pointers? Andrew, in NZ... ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Im7shannon@aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:46 PM To: rocket-list@matronics.com Subject: Rocket-List: first10 hr report 450KS first 15 hour report is as follows: 1. Vertical rolls are the most fun so far. 2. Hey Smokey how many can you do? Kevin ________________________________ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron h ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. Checked by AVG. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron h ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:14 PM PST US From: "Larry James" Subject: Rocket-List: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:20 PM PST US From: Fred Weaver Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: > > Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting > the word out ??? > > > > Larry E. James > > Bellevue, WA > > Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) > > Rocket (still in basement) > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Checked by AVG. > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:54 PM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Well said Fred, I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and make it what YOU think it should be. I'll be glad to help. All those in favor? Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: rocket-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Checked by AVG. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:25 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH I agree to some extent with what you are saying, except the antipathy with safety seminars. Depending on its objective, a safety seminaar is a very valuable thing, because those folks who know could just pass information along that might save my life. And even if a thousand other people sit around bored to tears, it was all worth it. Nico _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 5:05 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Rocket-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution _____ Checked by AVG. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:55 PM PST US Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH From: "ACTIVE NZ - Andrew" I agree, re the safety of the Rocket, and am surprised to hear it's getting a "bad rap" - that's news to me. It's very stable on the ground, for a taildragger, and built strong. So long as it's built right, and not too many "experiments" are conducted when it comes to the powerplant selection and installation, I think it's a good machine. As ever, it's the seat/control interface that seems to be the main problem. That said, I didn't get an answer on my question about the structural integrity of RV tails on Rockets, and with their higher VA & VNO. I'd be really interested to hear, from people who know, if I'm the only one with a (slight) question mark about using an RV tail at relatively high speeds/G loads... Feel free to email me offlist... Andrew ________________________________ From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Well said Fred, I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and make it what YOU think it should be. I'll be glad to help. All those in favor? Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: rocket-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron i cs.com/Navigator?Rocket-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c o ntribution ________________________________ Checked by AVG. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron h ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:07 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH For what its worth, my rocket's tail is a RV-4. All the tailing edges of the elevator and rudder have been beefed up (doubled) with parts supplied from John Harmon. The rest of the tail is stock. I do 95% of my flying at 140 KIAS, at altitude (10500 or 11500), that works out to 170 knots true. There is 350 hours on the tach and so far, NO CRACKS or damage of any kind. I have had it up to 250 KIAS during the test period a couple of times but have no reason to go that fast during normal flying. During descents it is very easy to have the speed increase to 180 KIAS and I can tell by the feel of the controls the difference in speed. Slowest, ugliest Rocket But it sure puts a smile on my face. Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II, N561FS do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: ACTIVE NZ - Andrew To: rocket-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:12 PM Subject: RE: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH I agree, re the safety of the Rocket, and am surprised to hear it's getting a "bad rap" - that's news to me. It's very stable on the ground, for a taildragger, and built strong. So long as it's built right, and not too many "experiments" are conducted when it comes to the powerplant selection and installation, I think it's a good machine. As ever, it's the seat/control interface that seems to be the main problem. That said, I didn't get an answer on my question about the structural integrity of RV tails on Rockets, and with their higher VA & VNO. I'd be really interested to hear, from people who know, if I'm the only one with a (slight) question mark about using an RV tail at relatively high speeds/G loads... Feel free to email me offlist... Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:01 PM To: rocket-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH Well said Fred, I nominate you to lead the "Safety Seminar" and make it what YOU think it should be. I'll be glad to help. All those in favor? Jim Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: rocket-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Rocket-List: Re: Rocket Safety Seminar at OSH To all in the Rocket community........ I'm sure this "safety thing" will make some of the builders happy.....and maybe some of the flyers too. Sadly, the thing is: The Rocket is getting a bad rap. It's such a nice plane to fly. Good manners and habits..... Flies like a good plane should. Sadly, we have lost a few nice planes and probably some nice people too.... To accidents that had nothing to do with the safe and good flying capabilities of the Rocket. The Harmon Rocket is a really nice plane to fly. It's not tricky or twitchy.... It's just a fabulous airplane that some people just get carried away with and end up making a pretty huge divot. I hope this safety seminar isn't aimed at trying to placate some insurance company or program. A Rocket is no different than a good/great Gun... In most hands, it is a wonderful thing. Personally, I hate attending "Safety Seminars" because it always seems they are for all the wrong reasons....... A few people got a hold of a good airplane and then decided to test their skill level & judgement. Unfortunately for those of us that continue to fly the Rocket, we have to deal with "their" decisions and the results "they" produced. Just my two cents....... Weav Larry James wrote: Count me in too. I'm thinking the biggest hurdle may be just getting the word out ??? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon (flying to OSH 2008) Rocket (still in basement) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Checked by AVG. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rocket-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Rocket-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rocket-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rocket-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.