Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:28 AM - HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my HR2 faster (ACTIVE NZ - Andrew)
2. 06:43 AM - Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my HR2 fa (N395V)
3. 07:31 AM - Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my HR2 faster (Lee Logan)
4. 07:49 AM - Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my HR2 faster (John Cox)
5. 09:53 AM - Re: HR 2 - looking to make my HR2 faster (Fred Weaver)
6. 12:54 PM - Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my HR2 faster (Tom Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my HR2 |
faster
Hi guys. I'm about to get serious about getting a little more speed out
of my Rocket. I think it's, maybe, 10 knots (or more) slower than many
of the HRs/F1s I read about. TAS in level flight seems to be a hair
under 200 knots, WOT, at any altitude under 8000 feet. I'm wondering if
anyone has any recommendations as to resources, ie, where can I start
looking for information about how to tweak a little more speed out of an
aircraft? Any books, websites, companies or other resources out there on
this subject?
I'm presuming it's mainly about drag, cos I have a good condition 280 hp
engine, and a ROC that's as good as any I've read about. I note that the
elevator is down quite a bit in cruise, and wonder if could be robbing a
few knots? The aircraft also flies with a constant very slight right
hand aileron down to maintain wings level, and also has a couple of
external antennae. Anyone care to comment on whether any of this stuff
makes much of a difference? As I understand basic aerodynamic theory,
parasitic drag is squared, in terms of its impact on airspeed, so I'm
wondering if even the really small things matter when you're talking
about c 200 knots?
Also,the cockpit isn't well sealed. I have a flip-over canopy, and when
it's closed, there's still a 5 mm gap. Is this important?
Anything else that should be looked at? At this stage, a turbine is out
of the question :)
Last question, I guess, is the most important. Am I being unrealistic in
hoping to see TAS of 210 knots????
I'd really appreciate any comments you guys might have on this matter. I
know there's a wealth of experience out there...
Andrew (NZ)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Rocket-List
Digest Server
Sent: Sat 9/13/2008 7:15 PM
Subject: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/12/08
*
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Total Messages Posted Fri 09/12/08: 5
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:22 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Im7shannon@aol.com)
2. 09:29 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Im7shannon@aol.com)
3. 09:42 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (nico css)
4. 09:50 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Fred Weaver)
5. 09:53 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (nico css)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 09:22:11 AM PST US
From: Im7shannon@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
In a message dated 9/11/2008 11:37:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid,
shipped and
then
realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
That's not nice, Kevin
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion
blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 09:29:14 AM PST US
From: Im7shannon@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that
it is
defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more
time.
The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my
airplane
and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare
parts for
somebody who banged up his elevator.
Kevin Shannon
do not archive
Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid,
shipped and
then
realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
That's not nice, Kevin
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion
blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 09:42:03 AM PST US
From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to
sell
it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as spare
parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics were in the
way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I would gladly
accept the clarification.
No swords were drawn
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that
it
is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more
time.
The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my
airplane
and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare
parts
for somebody who banged up his elevator.
Kevin Shannon
do not archive
Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid,
shipped
and then realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
That's not nice, Kevin
_____
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
latest fall trends and hair
<http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> styles at
StyleList.com.
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 09:50:35 AM PST US
From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
Get a grip Nico.......
nico css wrote:
> I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to
> sell it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as
> spare parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics
> were in the way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I
> would gladly accept the clarification.
> No swords were drawn
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Im7shannon@aol.com
> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
> *To:* rocket-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
> I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from
> guys wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post
> explaining that it is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I
> will say it one more time.
> The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my
> airplane and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for
> spare parts for somebody who banged up his elevator.
> Kevin Shannon
> do not archive
>
> Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea.
> Cheap doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it
> paid, shipped and then realizing your were out to recover some of
> your mistakes.
> That's not nice, Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
> latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com
> <http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014>.
> *
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
> *
>
>
> *
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Checked by AVG.
>
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 09:53:52 AM PST US
From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I'm OK.
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Weaver
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
Get a grip Nico.......
nico css wrote:
I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to
sell
it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as spare
parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics were in the
way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I would gladly
accept the clarification.
No swords were drawn
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that
it
is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more
time.
The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my
airplane
and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare
parts
for somebody who banged up his elevator.
Kevin Shannon
do not archive
Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid,
shipped
and then realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
That's not nice, Kevin
_____
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
latest fall trends
<http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> and hair
styles
at StyleList.com.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List>
>http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com"
<http://forums.matronics.com> >http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution> >http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron
ics.c
om/Navigator?Rocket-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontri
bution
_____
Checked by AVG.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my |
HR2 fa
What engine do you have. Your speed sounds typical for a 250-260HP.
Cleaning up all the items you mentioned might give you 3-5 knots.
I had the 250 HP IO 540 and saw 195 KTS TAS below 10,000 feet at max gross.
At 13,000 I could get 200 KTS at Max Gross and with just me and half fuel I would
see 205 KTS TAS.
Also all Rocket drivers lie about their speed. Well maybe embellish a little.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4079#204079
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my |
HR2 faster
Andrew: Two sources of information come to mind, neither directly
associated with Rockets but the aerodynamics and engine recommendations wil
l
be very similar. The book "Speed with Economy" by Kent Paser is excellent.
The book is centered on his experiments with his Midget Mustang, but the
results were spectacular. It must be said that he tried a lot of ideas an
d
clearly spent hundreds of hours on his ideas and on various projects, but
his results speak for themselves. The book is not particularly
sophisticated, with hand drawings and relatively poor photographs, but (it
seems to me), it is also a labor of love wherein the author was all about
sharing the information and results he developed and not about putting
together an artsy coffee table book on the subject. It is an inexpensive
book and worth every NZ penny you pay for it!
The other source are the CAFE Foundation Reports and Aircraft Performance
Reports (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_home.php) in general and th
e
one on Dave Ander's RV-4 in particular. His RV-4 is faster than any Rocket
(I think) and though he has gone to very great lengths to get all the speed
out of it he can, there is a wealth of ideas in both the CAFE APR on his
aircraft (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_apr/RV-4.pdf) and in his own
writings. Anders did 250.71 mph in his IO-306 powered RV-4 during the CAFE
triathlon trials. His airplane is even faster than that now, I understand.
You will have a long way to go to catch up to either of these guys, but
then, they are true trail blazers in speed mods on our size airplanes.
Just found most of my "speed notes" in the big database I add to everytime
I
come across something interesting about RV's and Rockets. Sorry, this is
long, but these are some of my notes on the subject including the basics of
a briefing that Dave Anders himself gave at an EAA meeting some time back
that someone recorded.
"
*From Dave Anders Notes:*
Propeller - Inlet - Cowl relationship
1) propeller thrust distribution for inlet location.
2) boundary layer thickness at back edge of spinner and shank
of the propeller.
3) differential pressure across inlet.
4) reverse flow on standard inlets.
5) prop extension to decrease flat plate area.
Inlet (stagnation inlet)
1) shape - round = smallest surface area/volume
easiest to provide best seal to plenum.
2) size - calculated from mass flow required for BTU from
engine chart.
Mass flow = area X velocity X plenum efficiency
Oversized inlets >velocity resulting in >pressure thus >cowl drag around th
e
inlets.
3) round lip edge to decrease inlet stall and reduce inlet drag
Plenum design
1) uses Bernoulli's Law: volume = >velocity = >pressure
2) Greater *p across the cylinders carries off more BTU.
3) diffuser can diverge 5 deg/side =B1 (air flow remains attached due to
>Velocity and >pressure)
4) A = area of inlet (calculated by mass flow requirement)
A = area at the rear of the effect diffuser
A = area over the cylinder and head, A area = A area
5) slowing the free stream velocity 10 - 40% >Cooling drag losses.
6) there should be no sharp bends or edges to minimize flow separation.
(My note: there's less leakage, no doubt)
Outlet - starts under the cylinders
1) area as small as possible to re-accelerate the air to free
stream condition to >drag.
2) Convergence zone leads to exit fuselage/firewall airfoil
rounded gentle curved sides should be ~ 35 deg.
3) shape - NACA studies
- straight sided rectangular shallow angle converging ramp
- ramp as parallel to free stream flow as possible at end
- width to depth ratio of ramp
a) 7 to 1 for cooling systems
b) 1 to 1 for exhausts (augmenter)
4) inlet to outlet ratio: what's recommended, what works & why.
a) stock Van's: RV4 ratio ~ 39sq" X 60sq" = 150%
RV6 ratio ~ 44sq" X 56sq" = 127%
(Dave's notes go on; he describes what he feels is a better 76% ratio, eg
smaller outlet than inlet.
Obviously low speed climb condition is critical & req's more area than high
speed level cond.)
********
Without debate, the hard DATA:
No leaks +
Smaller inlets +
Better shaped inlets +
Better location inlets
= less cooling drag
More esoteric but true:
Better flowing round inlets (nozzles) with airfoil profile
(not laminar but not a swirling reverse flow mess) +
Better area transitions (which could be better still **)
= less cooling drag
** Now my opinion, no data sorry, I'm convinced two separate L/R plenums ar
e
better than one big dog house plenum (Sam James). Area transition is larger
than needed. Data? RV buddies have great luck with two separate plenums. Yo
u
just don't need air over the middle of the case. Drag reduction is unknown,
it may be small but cools nicely, so at least there's no loss & it weighs
less. Another area I'd improve, leakage around the spinner. Min spinner/cow
l
gap is a common approach, but a seal behind the gap could reduce leakage
into the lower cowl, which reduces efficiency. If air flow is out of the
spinner gap it causes external plume-interference drag. Down side? Sealing
is hard, and we're talking nitpick small gains, unlike the known large gain
of a cowl/ring/diffuser/plenum system. Gaining 6 or 15 mph is like finding
10 or 15 HP with out burning more gas!
4. When you give the speed increase from a mod, don't just say you got 5 mp
h
more, but say what the before and after speeds were so the percent increase
can be calculated. The percent increases from each mod, expressed as a
decimal, (3.3% = 1.033) can be multiplied together to give the overall
increase which can be expected. One thing of note. I have noticed in my
testing of RVs that the low 4.8:1 aspect ratio of the -6 causes much
increased induced loss at higher density altitudes with its lower
power/speed. Lower density, lower speed, higher CL, higher induced loss! As
the plane's drag is decreased from mods, and the speed increases, the
greater dynamic pressure will allow the wing to operate at a lower CL and
decrease this loss, thus giving slightly more speed than would be expected
just from the mod's percentage. For more speed from wing mods - down low -
decrease area; up high, increase span with slashed tips that give more
span/area!"
Hope this helps. I think there is more and perhaps more specific info on
Dave Anders' work on the internet. I just don't have it in front of me
right now.
Best of luck and be sure to share your results!
P.S. Are you on the South Island or North??
Regards,
Lee...
Message 4
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| Subject: | HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my |
HR2 faster
Lee - thanks for your comprehensive post. I have the same interest as
Andrew In my build. My first thought was that the engine is
"advertised" as 280 and yet a dyno test might show significantly less
output (as much as 8% less). Barnaby Wainfan did a remarkable
presentation at OSH '08 and thrilled the crowd on this subject by his
offer that Marc Cook and Kitplanes Magazine is going to offer his entire
36 months of installments on DVD.
Power always seems to get attention, then the prop and eventually all
the little things that add to Real Drag Reduction. "Speed Notes" is
another way of quantifying saving fuel consumption. No mention was made
of the final Empty Weight. Weight creep with a resultant change of CG
is also a factor.
John Cox
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Logan
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to
make my HR2 faster
Andrew: Two sources of information come to mind, neither directly
associated with Rockets but the aerodynamics and engine recommendations
will be very similar. The book "Speed with Economy" by Kent Paser is
excellent. The book is centered on his experiments with his Midget
Mustang, but the results were spectacular. It must be said that he
tried a lot of ideas and clearly spent hundreds of hours on his ideas
and on various projects, but his results speak for themselves. The book
is not particularly sophisticated, with hand drawings and relatively
poor photographs, but (it seems to me), it is also a labor of love
wherein the author was all about sharing the information and results he
developed and not about putting together an artsy coffee table book on
the subject. It is an inexpensive book and worth every NZ penny you pay
for it!
The other source are the CAFE Foundation Reports and Aircraft
Performance Reports (http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_home.php) in
general and the one on Dave Ander's RV-4 in particular. His RV-4 is
faster than any Rocket (I think) and though he has gone to very great
lengths to get all the speed out of it he can, there is a wealth of
ideas in both the CAFE APR on his aircraft
(http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_apr/RV-4.pdf) and in his own
writings. Anders did 250.71 mph in his IO-306 powered RV-4 during the
CAFE triathlon trials. His airplane is even faster than that now, I
understand. You will have a long way to go to catch up to either of
these guys, but then, they are true trail blazers in speed mods on our
size airplanes.
Just found most of my "speed notes" in the big database I add to
everytime I come across something interesting about RV's and Rockets.
Sorry, this is long, but these are some of my notes on the subject
including the basics of a briefing that Dave Anders himself gave at an
EAA meeting some time back that someone recorded.
"
>From Dave Anders Notes:
Propeller - Inlet - Cowl relationship
1) propeller thrust distribution for inlet location.
2) boundary layer thickness at back edge of spinner and shank
of the propeller.
3) differential pressure across inlet.
4) reverse flow on standard inlets.
5) prop extension to decrease flat plate area.
Inlet (stagnation inlet)
1) shape - round = smallest surface area/volume
easiest to provide best seal to plenum.
2) size - calculated from mass flow required for BTU from
engine chart.
Mass flow = area X velocity X plenum efficiency
Oversized inlets >velocity resulting in >pressure thus >cowl drag around
the inlets.
3) round lip edge to decrease inlet stall and reduce inlet drag
Plenum design
1) uses Bernoulli's Law: volume = >velocity = >pressure
2) Greater *p across the cylinders carries off more BTU.
3) diffuser can diverge 5 deg/side =B1 (air flow remains attached due to
>Velocity and >pressure)
4) A = area of inlet (calculated by mass flow requirement)
A = area at the rear of the effect diffuser
A = area over the cylinder and head, A area = A area
5) slowing the free stream velocity 10 - 40% >Cooling drag losses.
6) there should be no sharp bends or edges to minimize flow separation.
(My note: there's less leakage, no doubt)
Outlet - starts under the cylinders
1) area as small as possible to re-accelerate the air to free
stream condition to >drag.
2) Convergence zone leads to exit fuselage/firewall airfoil
rounded gentle curved sides should be ~ 35 deg.
3) shape - NACA studies
- straight sided rectangular shallow angle converging ramp
- ramp as parallel to free stream flow as possible at end
- width to depth ratio of ramp
a) 7 to 1 for cooling systems
b) 1 to 1 for exhausts (augmenter)
4) inlet to outlet ratio: what's recommended, what works & why.
a) stock Van's: RV4 ratio ~ 39sq" X 60sq" = 150%
RV6 ratio ~ 44sq" X 56sq" = 127%
(Dave's notes go on; he describes what he feels is a better 76% ratio,
eg smaller outlet than inlet.
Obviously low speed climb condition is critical & req's more area than
high speed level cond.)
******
Without debate, the hard DATA:
No leaks +
Smaller inlets +
Better shaped inlets +
Better location inlets
= less cooling drag
More esoteric but true:
Better flowing round inlets (nozzles) with airfoil profile
(not laminar but not a swirling reverse flow mess) +
Better area transitions (which could be better still **)
= less cooling drag
** Now my opinion, no data sorry, I'm convinced two separate L/R plenums
are better than one big dog house plenum (Sam James). Area transition is
larger than needed. Data? RV buddies have great luck with two separate
plenums. You just don't need air over the middle of the case. Drag
reduction is unknown, it may be small but cools nicely, so at least
there's no loss & it weighs less. Another area I'd improve, leakage
around the spinner. Min spinner/cowl gap is a common approach, but a
seal behind the gap could reduce leakage into the lower cowl, which
reduces efficiency. If air flow is out of the spinner gap it causes
external plume-interference drag. Down side? Sealing is hard, and we're
talking nitpick small gains, unlike the known large gain of a
cowl/ring/diffuser/plenum system. Gaining 6 or 15 mph is like finding 10
or 15 HP with out burning more gas!
4. When you give the speed increase from a mod, don't just say you got 5
mph more, but say what the before and after speeds were so the percent
increase can be calculated. The percent increases from each mod,
expressed as a decimal, (3.3% = 1.033) can be multiplied together to
give the overall increase which can be expected. One thing of note. I
have noticed in my testing of RVs that the low 4.8:1 aspect ratio of the
-6 causes much increased induced loss at higher density altitudes with
its lower power/speed. Lower density, lower speed, higher CL, higher
induced loss! As the plane's drag is decreased from mods, and the speed
increases, the greater dynamic pressure will allow the wing to operate
at a lower CL and decrease this loss, thus giving slightly more speed
than would be expected just from the mod's percentage. For more speed
from wing mods - down low - decrease area; up high, increase span with
slashed tips that give more span/area!"
Hope this helps. I think there is more and perhaps more specific info
on Dave Anders' work on the internet. I just don't have it in front of
me right now.
Best of luck and be sure to share your results!
P.S. Are you on the South Island or North??
Regards,
Lee...
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: HR 2 - looking to make my HR2 faster |
Andrew.... You need to remember that you have a Lycon Engine.....
Their dyno is always very proud of their engines. I think they have a
dial they can rotate to give you the results on paper that you want to
see. However, in real practice, their engines make about the same power
as everyone elses.
I did note a post from Lee.... It contains all of Dave Ander's stuff
that really makes a difference. If you want to increase your speed,
revise your cowling and reduce your cooling drag. That is where a BIG
chunk of speed goes away.....
Weav
ACTIVE NZ - Andrew wrote:
> Hi guys. I'm about to get serious about getting a little more speed out of my
Rocket. I think it's, maybe, 10 knots (or more) slower than many of the HRs/F1s
I read about. TAS in level flight seems to be a hair under 200 knots, WOT,
at any altitude under 8000 feet. I'm wondering if anyone has any recommendations
as to resources, ie, where can I start looking for information about how to
tweak a little more speed out of an aircraft? Any books, websites, companies
or other resources out there on this subject?
>
> I'm presuming it's mainly about drag, cos I have a good condition 280 hp engine,
and a ROC that's as good as any I've read about. I note that the elevator
is down quite a bit in cruise, and wonder if could be robbing a few knots? The
aircraft also flies with a constant very slight right hand aileron down to maintain
wings level, and also has a couple of external antennae. Anyone care to
comment on whether any of this stuff makes much of a difference? As I understand
basic aerodynamic theory, parasitic drag is squared, in terms of its impact
on airspeed, so I'm wondering if even the really small things matter when you're
talking about c 200 knots?
>
> Also,the cockpit isn't well sealed. I have a flip-over canopy, and when it's
closed, there's still a 5 mm gap. Is this important?
>
> Anything else that should be looked at? At this stage, a turbine is out of the
question :)
>
> Last question, I guess, is the most important. Am I being unrealistic in hoping
to see TAS of 210 knots????
>
> I'd really appreciate any comments you guys might have on this matter. I know
there's a wealth of experience out there...
>
> Andrew (NZ)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Rocket-List Digest
Server
> Sent: Sat 9/13/2008 7:15 PM
> To: Rocket-List Digest List
> Subject: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/12/08
>
> *
>
>
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>
>
> Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the Rocket-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-09-12&Archive=Rocket
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-09-12&Archive=Rocket
>
>
> ======================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ======================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Rocket-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Fri 09/12/08: 5
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 09:22 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Im7shannon@aol.com)
> 2. 09:29 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Im7shannon@aol.com)
> 3. 09:42 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (nico css)
> 4. 09:50 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Fred Weaver)
> 5. 09:53 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (nico css)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:22:11 AM PST US
> From: Im7shannon@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
>
> In a message dated 9/11/2008 11:37:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
>
> Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
> doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped and
> then
> realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
> That's not nice, Kevin
>
>
> **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
> plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
> (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:29:14 AM PST US
> From: Im7shannon@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
>
> I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
> wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that it is
>
> defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more time.
> The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my airplane
> and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare parts for
>
> somebody who banged up his elevator.
> Kevin Shannon
> do not archive
>
> Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
> doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped and
> then
> realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
> That's not nice, Kevin
>
>
> **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
> plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
> (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:42:03 AM PST US
> From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
> I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to sell
> it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as spare
> parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics were in the
> way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I would gladly
> accept the clarification.
> No swords were drawn
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Im7shannon@aol.com
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
>
> I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
> wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that it
> is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more
> time.
> The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my airplane
> and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare parts
> for somebody who banged up his elevator.
> Kevin Shannon
> do not archive
>
>
> Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
> doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped
> and then realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
> That's not nice, Kevin
>
>
> _____
>
> Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
> latest fall trends and hair
> <http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> styles at
> StyleList.com.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:50:35 AM PST US
> From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
> Get a grip Nico.......
>
> nico css wrote:
>
>> I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to
>> sell it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as
>> spare parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics
>> were in the way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I
>> would gladly accept the clarification.
>> No swords were drawn
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>> *Im7shannon@aol.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
>> *To:* rocket-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>>
>> I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from
>> guys wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post
>> explaining that it is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I
>> will say it one more time.
>> The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my
>> airplane and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for
>> spare parts for somebody who banged up his elevator.
>> Kevin Shannon
>> do not archive
>>
>> Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea.
>> Cheap doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it
>> paid, shipped and then realizing your were out to recover some of
>> your mistakes.
>> That's not nice, Kevin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
>> latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com
>> <http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014>.
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>>
>>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:53:52 AM PST US
> From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> Subject: RE: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
> I'm OK.
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Weaver
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
>
> Get a grip Nico.......
>
> nico css wrote:
>
> I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to sell
> it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as spare
> parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics were in the
> way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I would gladly
> accept the clarification.
> No swords were drawn
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Im7shannon@aol.com
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
>
> I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
> wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that it
> is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more
> time.
> The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my airplane
> and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare parts
> for somebody who banged up his elevator.
> Kevin Shannon
> do not archive
>
>
> Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
> doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped
> and then realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
> That's not nice, Kevin
>
>
> _____
>
> Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
> latest fall trends
> <http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> and hair styles
> at StyleList.com.
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List>
>
>> http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com"
>>
> <http://forums.matronics.com> >http://forums.matronics.com
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> >http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronics.c
> om/Navigator?Rocket-List
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
> bution
>
>
> _____
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Checked by AVG.
>
Message 6
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|
| Subject: | HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my |
HR2 faster
Andrew
Both of my HRIIs with stock engines were 200 knot airplanes. This
is what John Harmon advertises and my numbers match his. I have spent a lot
of work on the cowling over the years, on a total of seven rockets, and I
can tell you that the stock cowling is pretty efficient. The main thing
that can be done to improve cooling is the proper shape and size of the
inlets. This has been mentioned by previous posters and it is quite
important. Obviously no leaks from the upper to lower plenum is a given. I
have found that the outlet is an area that can use some work. Often I see
outlets that have been cut off and this allows more air for cooling. More
cooling air is directly related to increased drag. Particularly if you cut
the cowling off to a point where the air flows directly down the firewall
and enters the free air stream at an acute angle. My cowl lip extends aft
of the firewall at least three inches. Note that my comments regarding the
cowling mainly relate to cooling. I have been able to make a lot of
adjustments to aid in cooling but I have yet to see an increase in total
speed from cowling modifications. You can make is slower, but increasing
speed, has been elusive.
Weight kills speed and performance.
Upper and lower gear leg farings also can have an impact on speed.
Here you need a tight fit and a generous fillet aft of the faring.
The choice of propellers can make about as much difference as
anything you can do. The MT prop, although smooth is going to cost you
speed. The new two blade blended airfoil Hartzell is quite a bit faster and
much smoother than the old paddle blade Hartzell.
There is a dip in the fuselage at the lower firewall. If you look
at a F1 rocket it does not have as much of a dip at that location. I
estimate that dip costs an average of three knots.
The main limitation to increasing speed on a HRII, or the standard
wing F1, is the wing. Although in many ways it is the perfect wing for this
airplane it does limit top speed. Keep in mind that there are only a
handful of planes of any kind that are true 200 knot airplanes.
Currently I am flying a F1 with the EVO wing. It is my fastest
rocket to date and I have been making a series of minor improvements over
the last three flying seasons. My original MT prop was limiting my speed
and the new Hartzell has been a real improvement. In the AirVenture cup
race this year my average speed over 405 nautical miles was 232 knots. I
believe this to be the fastest recorded rocket speed in an official race.
Yes I did have some nice tail winds but this plane is showing some good
numbers now. My data leads me to believe that my 8000 foot TAS is
approaching 215 knots.
This winter it goes back in the shop for some more clean up and a
new primer paint scheme, the original is getting a bit scruffy. If you are
interested in speed, do not paint your airplane as it will definitely limit
your will to make modifications.
Tom Martin
EVO I 280 hours.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACTIVE NZ -
Andrew
Sent: September 13, 2008 4:31 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: HR 2 - any ideas on where to start looking to make my
HR2 faster
Hi guys. I'm about to get serious about getting a little more speed out of
my Rocket. I think it's, maybe, 10 knots (or more) slower than many of the
HRs/F1s I read about. TAS in level flight seems to be a hair under 200
knots, WOT, at any altitude under 8000 feet. I'm wondering if anyone has any
recommendations as to resources, ie, where can I start looking for
information about how to tweak a little more speed out of an aircraft? Any
books, websites, companies or other resources out there on this subject?
I'm presuming it's mainly about drag, cos I have a good condition 280 hp
engine, and a ROC that's as good as any I've read about. I note that the
elevator is down quite a bit in cruise, and wonder if could be robbing a few
knots? The aircraft also flies with a constant very slight right hand
aileron down to maintain wings level, and also has a couple of external
antennae. Anyone care to comment on whether any of this stuff makes much of
a difference? As I understand basic aerodynamic theory, parasitic drag is
squared, in terms of its impact on airspeed, so I'm wondering if even the
really small things matter when you're talking about c 200 knots?
Also,the cockpit isn't well sealed. I have a flip-over canopy, and when it's
closed, there's still a 5 mm gap. Is this important?
Anything else that should be looked at? At this stage, a turbine is out of
the question :)
Last question, I guess, is the most important. Am I being unrealistic in
hoping to see TAS of 210 knots????
I'd really appreciate any comments you guys might have on this matter. I
know there's a wealth of experience out there...
Andrew (NZ)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Rocket-List Digest
Server
Sent: Sat 9/13/2008 7:15 PM
Subject: Rocket-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/12/08
*
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
Today's complete Rocket-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Rocket-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
08-09-12&Archive=Rocket
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
2008-09-12&Archive=Rocket
======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
======================
----------------------------------------------------------
Rocket-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Fri 09/12/08: 5
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:22 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Im7shannon@aol.com)
2. 09:29 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Im7shannon@aol.com)
3. 09:42 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (nico css)
4. 09:50 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (Fred Weaver)
5. 09:53 AM - Re: tails and trailing edges (nico css)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 09:22:11 AM PST US
From: Im7shannon@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
In a message dated 9/11/2008 11:37:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
nico@cybersuperstore.com writes:
Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped
and
then
realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
That's not nice, Kevin
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 09:29:14 AM PST US
From: Im7shannon@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that it
is
defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more time.
The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my airplane
and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare parts
for
somebody who banged up his elevator.
Kevin Shannon
do not archive
Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped
and
then
realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
That's not nice, Kevin
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 09:42:03 AM PST US
From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to sell
it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as spare
parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics were in the
way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I would gladly
accept the clarification.
No swords were drawn
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that it
is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more
time.
The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my airplane
and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare parts
for somebody who banged up his elevator.
Kevin Shannon
do not archive
Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped
and then realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
That's not nice, Kevin
_____
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
latest fall trends and hair
<http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> styles at
StyleList.com.
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 09:50:35 AM PST US
From: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
Get a grip Nico.......
nico css wrote:
> I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to
> sell it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as
> spare parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics
> were in the way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I
> would gladly accept the clarification.
> No swords were drawn
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Im7shannon@aol.com
> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
> *To:* rocket-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
>
> I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from
> guys wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post
> explaining that it is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I
> will say it one more time.
> The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my
> airplane and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for
> spare parts for somebody who banged up his elevator.
> Kevin Shannon
> do not archive
>
> Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea.
> Cheap doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it
> paid, shipped and then realizing your were out to recover some of
> your mistakes.
> That's not nice, Kevin
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
> latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com
> <http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014>.
> *
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
> *
>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Checked by AVG.
>
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 09:53:52 AM PST US
From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I'm OK.
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Weaver
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
Get a grip Nico.......
nico css wrote:
I responded purely to what you said in your email, that you wanted to sell
it "cheep" (sic). You didn't say that you want to part with it as spare
parts. If I am wrong, I would gladly apologize. If semantics were in the
way, I would still apologize - we are not wordsmiths and I would gladly
accept the clarification.
No swords were drawn
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Im7shannon@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: tails and trailing edges
I am not trying to sell it. In fact I have had several emails from guys
wanting it and that was the reason for my previous post explaining that it
is defective. So for alert readers like yourself, I will say it one more
time.
The FI tail I have is not in good condition, I didnt want it on my airplane
and you dont want it on yours either but it might be good for spare parts
for somebody who banged up his elevator.
Kevin Shannon
do not archive
Perhaps selling it to other RV owners is not that good an idea. Cheap
doesn't justify putting someone else in danger, or having it paid, shipped
and then realizing your were out to recover some of your mistakes.
That's not nice, Kevin
_____
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the
latest fall trends
<http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> and hair styles
at StyleList.com.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List"
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>http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com"
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