Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:41 AM - Re: Re: Road Landing (Ernest Hale)
2. 04:35 AM - Re: High Temps! (Rob Ray)
3. 05:17 AM - Re: Re: Road Landing (John Bolding)
4. 05:48 AM - Remove (Brian Wallis)
5. 06:01 AM - rocket cooling (Jim Stone)
6. 06:03 AM - Re: High Temps! (Ernest Hale)
7. 07:04 AM - Re: High Temps! (Kevin Shannon)
8. 02:03 PM - And a teeny bit more on road and off-airport landings from another who's done it... (ACTIVE NZ - Andrew)
9. 05:26 PM - Re: rocket cooling (Lee Logan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Road Landing |
Great information, thanks for all of the details. We are test flying some
modifications today and I will post this weekend to let everyone know what
we did and how it worked.
Ernest
On 11/5/09 11:18 PM, "Lee Logan" <leeloganster@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ernest (Sorry this is so long, but maybe it will help and will be worth y
our
> time to read it):- I believe it is a settled fact that Rockets have more
than
> enough inlet and exit area to cool just fine.- If you have a good cooler,
good
> baffling, smooth inlets, an adequate outlet, and no
> engine/oil/magneto/sparkplug/FI issues---it will (or can be made to) run
cool,
> if it is properly broken in.- In my case, I used the RV-10 baffling kit w
hich
> was a good start but installed "stock" wasn't just right for my engine.
>
> I started with 400+ cylinder head temps and 240+ oil.- So, I created a
> systematic plan to go though the cooling system an item at a time.- Devel
oped
> a "root cause" analysis and stuck with it.- I learned not to take anythin
g for
> granted and question everything.- The cooling system on any aircraft engi
ne is
> truly a "system", everything is interrelated.- I got countless recommenda
tions
> from the usual suspects at the airport and all the ideas were good---the
> invariable problem with them was that they didn't know what was wrong wit
h MY
> airplane any more than I did.- "Check your timing, my uncle did and it fi
xed
> his problem", "You've got fouled plugs, my cousin checked his when his en
gine
> ran hot and sure enough, 3 of them were fouled", etc. etc.- I heard that
> constantly.- If anyone had ever actually diagnosed my airplane to a real-
world
> root cause, the solution would have been obvious.- Solutions are easy, it
's
> figuring out what's wrong that is hard---and here is the major pain in al
l
> this:- Unless you find an obvious smoking gun, you may have to do like I
> did---just keep modifying and verifying until the temps go down.- Change
> things one at a time; whatever doesn't improve things, change it back.
>
> I went through the vernatherm, the cooler, the connections, the oil itsel
f,
> the filter, the pump, etc.- I swapped vernatherms, tested vernatherms, ho
ned
> the vernatherm seat, even flew it with a blanked off vernatherm (temp wen
t
> up).- I flipped the cooler (to eliminate air pockets), verified the oil l
ines
> were connected to the right openings in the accessory case, tested both o
il
> temp gages, tested both oil pressure gages, flow tested the (brand new St
ewart
> Warner) cooler and lines, drained the oil to verify the right amount was
on
> board, swapped oil filters, used a laser temp gage to verify consistent o
il
> temps throughout the engine to "prove" I had proper engine-wide flow (sum
p,
> hoses, front, back, sides, top and bottom of the cooler, cylinder heads,
> barrels, crankcase, accessory case) etc.- Over time, I decided it was not
the
> oil system.
>
> Went through engine baffles in detail and sealed everything. No leak is t
oo
> small to fill with RTV.- CHT's dropped 10 degrees; reprofiled upper cowl
> ramps, temps dropped 5 degrees.- Cut down the baffle plates in front of
> cylinders 1 and 2 incrementally, and their temps went down 3-5 degrees ea
ch
> time.- Ended up with no baffles in front of 1 and 2 above the inlet ramps
.-
> Incrementally removed trailing edge of aft lower cowl (the cowling inlet
> opening/exit opening areas in effect, "throttle" the airflow through the
> cowling).- Hint: The air going through cowling does not heat up very much
in
> the process of cooling the engine (8-10 degrees, I'm told), it's FLOW tha
t
> makes the system work.- Oil temp came down along with these changes but n
ot as
> fast.- Sometimes very modest changes to the baffles (sealing, trimming) a
nd
> the exit/outlet size, made large differences to the temps I saw.- The oil
> temps came down too with the plummeting CHT's but still stayed way too hi
gh
> for me.
>
> Decided the oil cooler wasn't getting its share of the flow.- My cooler w
as
> fed by a 4" opening in the right aft baffle feeding through a smooth sili
con
> rubber hose.- Added small baffles to channel air into the oil cooler open
ing
> (temps dropped 5 degrees), added 3" under-cowl hose to route air from lef
t
> cowling inlet direct to the cooler (no effect/removed it).- Removed baffl
e
> elements directly in front of the cylinder barrels (the baffles in front
of
> the cylinder heads were already long gone).- Oil temps went up.- Added "f
low"
> baffles in front of barrells angled back toward rear (instead of the vert
ical
> ones that came with the RV-10 baffle kit).- Oil temps back down slightly
but
> still high.
>
> Decided that the 4" oil cooler opening was not big enough. Fabricated and
> installed a full cooler sized opening and air path.- This took the oil co
oler
> inlet area from just over 12 sq. in. to 24.- I figured this was the "big
fix"
> the oil system needed to finally fall into line with the cylinders.- Didn
't
> work; no change in oil temps but cylinder temps went back up (marginally)
.-
> Fabricated and installed a plenum on the back side of the oil cooler feed
ing a
> 4" hose routed down to the lower cowl outlet.- Theory was that
> backflow/backpressure in the lower cowling was inhibiting flow through th
e
> cooler.- Plan was to go full size with an all new plenum and outlet if th
ere
> was any improvement at all.- There wasn't any. -
>
> What the heck?- So... I went through the engine: Changed timing down by 5
> degrees; whole system got hotter and power seemed "off".- Changed it back
.-
> Pulled all the plugs (they were fine); compression checked fine.
>
> Okay.- If the engine is good and the oil system is good and the inlets an
d
> outlet are reasonably close, the cylinder head temps are (now) low, but t
he
> oil temp is still above 210 in cruise (at least it is down from the origi
nal
> 240+), what does that leave?- This cowling and oil cooler combination is
> working fine on other Rockets with smaller oil cooler inlets.- Decided I
would
> reinstate my flight test program and "live" with the 210 degree oil temp.
-
> OAT's had been highish all summer (80 degrees plus, at altitude).- My DAR
> buddy was convinced that the engine was already broken in and running as
cool
> as it was going to run in and of itself.- I wasn't so sure.- Decided to t
ry
> one more thing before continuing the flight test program.- I cut a small
NACA
> scoop in the lower cowl centerline about 2/3 of the way aft of the fuel
> injection inlet to the trailing edge of the cowl.- It didn't go anywhere,
just
> brought additional air in from the outside and exhausted it immediately o
ut of
> the lower cowl a few inches in front of the lower trailing edge lip.- The
> theory was that that little "tornado" of air would entrain the slow movin
g air
> in the lower cowl and facilitate it in moving more rapidly to the cowling
> exit.- Flew the airplane and bingo!- The oil temp dropped to 190 on both
gages
> (I have two independent oil temp and pressure gages).- BUT: OAT was down
to 45
> degrees that day.- Did the NACA scoop really work that well, did the engi
ne
> just break in, or was the OAT effect that dramatic?- I only got to fly it
once
> like this before business trips intervened.
>
> In the meantime I had to pull my engine monitor and ship it back for
> recalibration (unrelated to my cooling problems).- Down for three weeks.-
> Finally flew it today for the second time since the NACA scoop was instal
led.-
> OAT up to 58, oil temp down to 185!- What finally did the trick? I don't
know
> yet but I will keep you informed.- The airport closes tomorrow for 2-3 we
eks
> for resurfacing.- I moved my Rocket to a nearby field though so I can con
tinue
> my test flights.- First up: Seal the NACA scoop and see what happens.- I
will
> do that Saturday.- I'm hoping for a couple of hotter days, so I can gage
a
> broader range of OAT effects.- Could be that my engine in fact just broke
in
> and that was the "remainder" of the problem all along; we'll know in a fe
w
> days.
>
> Honest, sorry for the long post but I wanted to get this all straight in
my
> own mind too.- Hope those who are facing the same problems will benefit t
oo.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lee...
>
>
> <http://www.buildersbooks.com>
om>
>
>
Message 2
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Ernest,
=C2-
=C2- I run electronic ignition with automotive plugs, no worries (a set o
f 12 is less than $20!). My CHT's are so cool now, I never see over 375 cli
mbing on a hot day, I am blessed!
=C2-
Smokey
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Sprayers@aol.com <Sprayers@aol.com> wrote:
From: Sprayers@aol.com <Sprayers@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: High Temps!
This high temp.=C2----have you checked your timing (mags)...i see you hav
e10-1 pistons. barrett in tulsa times his engines with these pistons at 23d
eg.=C2- (your c4b5) plate on eng says 25 deg. look at the 8.7 to 1 piston
s in lyc. 290 hp engines (most are 20deg).good luck=C2- sprayers@aol.com
=C2-
In a message dated 11/5/2009 7:25:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, smokyray@r
ocketmail.com writes:
Ernest,
Let me know how it works out, I will take a photo of my lower cowl in case
you want to compare...:)
Smokey
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com> wrote:
From: Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: High Temps!
Thanks Smokey, I will look at that, I also have the stock Harmon Cowl. =C2
-My compression is the same as yours as well, hopefully I can get it runn
ing like yours.
Ernest
On 11/5/09 4:34 PM, "Rob Ray" <smokyray@rocketmail.com> wrote:
Ernest,
=C2-=C2-An aeronautical engineer once told me that exit area should exc
eed inlet area by 1.5%. I carefully measured my inlets and my exit area and
ended up finding my exhaust pipes ate up alot of my exit area. I started b
y cutting quite a bit off my lower cowl in the shape of a U with the bottom
of the U even with the lower engine mount tube.I also moved my oil cooler
to a 30 degree angle and went to #8 lines. BTW, I have a stock Harmon cowl
with a C4B5 injected with 10.0 Compression, Ly-Con cyllinders.
=C2-After the modifications I cruise now at 9500' at 20"/2350 RPM with 18
0 oil, 310 average on all 6, 10.5 GPH, 188 Knots TAS. If I run 21 Squared d
own low my cyllinders run at 285, oil at 160 and fuel flow at 6.9 GPH. Hope
that helps.
Smokey
HR2
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com> wrote:
From: Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Road Landing
=C2-Huge is I am putting 18 gph through my engine at 6,000=99 to ma
intain a CHT of 415 or so. =C2-On climb out I can hit 440 in minutes. =C2
-I have replaced the baffling, reconstructed the bottom of the top cowlin
g to get better flow, placed a lip on the bottom of the engine outlet to pr
omote a suction to help pull air through the engine. =C2-We are about to
build extensions onto the air inlets in the front of the cowling to hopeful
ly force more air through. =C2-I was having a bad time with oil temps ear
lier and fixed that by adding another oil cooler so now I have 2 of those.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ernest
On 11/5/09 10:41 AM, "Michael W Stewart" <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com> wrote:
Ernest.
What is Huge?
What is High?
What have you done to this point to solve the problem?
With this information we can begin to help you.
There are a hundred things to list to do, We should start with where you ar
e and what you have done.
Mike
do not archive
Ernest Hale ---11/05/2009 09:59:18 AM---I have a huge problem with high cyl
inder head temps, what was your method of success in getting your
From:
Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com>
To:
<rocket-list@matronics.com>
Date:
11/05/2009 09:59 AM
Subject:
Re: Rocket-List: Re: Road Landing
Sent by:
owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
I have a huge problem with high cylinder head temps, what was your method o
f success in getting yours in range?
Ernest
N540HB
On 11/5/09 8:22 AM, "Lee Logan" <leeloganster@gmail.com <leeloganster@gmail
.com> > wrote:
Smokey: =C2-That's pretty much the way I figure it, but as I drive around
this area, I see power lines everywhere. =C2-Our major north-south highw
ay is I-95 (or Navaid 95, as it is known locally!) is fine but it is very b
usy. =C2-Your chances of getting down unscathed are good, I suspect, but
your chances of clearing 95 unscathed are much less. =C2-=C2-The fronta
ge road is better in that respect and has few powerlines itself. =C2-I ju
st don't figure I'll be so lucky as to have an Interstate or frontage road
handy when I need one!
My plan has always been to look for the houses on our rural roads and to la
nd beyond one and short of the next, if at all possible. =C2-That way, I
figure I've got a good starting point for the possibility of a clear landin
g. =C2-I'll have to make a couple of practice passes next time I'm up to
see how easy the power lines themselves are to spot from cruising altitude
(not hard from 1,000' as I recall but normally you'd be pretty committed by
then, I would think). =C2-I would really like to be able to pick my spot
early in an engine out situation, but I don't know how absolutely practica
l that is.
My Rocket is running much better. =C2-My last flight before I took it dow
n for 2-3 weeks of updates was very good with cylinder temps in the 320-350
range and the oil temp at 190-195. =C2-I'm very pleased with that and as
suming it will be the same once I get it back in the air, I will quickly fi
nish the rest of my operation/flight testing and call it ready for prime ti
me. =C2-I've made arrangements for final painting shortly thereafter, so
all is well!
Have a great weekend!
Lee...
onth --
me AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
="http://www.aeroelectric.com">http://www.aeroelectric.com>
<http://www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com/> >
ef="http//www.homebuilthelp.com' href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com%22%
3ehttp//www.homebuilthelp.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.ho
mebuilthelp.com">http://www.homebuilthelp.com=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Road Landing |
Not a Rocket but pretty close so I'll throw my nickel in the ring.
Had an engine out in my RV3 several yrs ago, was in the pattern but due
to altitude, wind, runway configuration ect decided to use the County
road that runs next to the Airpark (54T) No traffic so was only
concerned with powerlines as I got low. Had decided that two things were
NOT going to happen, no stalling allowed and no running into any
powerlines. As I got close to the road on final discovered 6 sets of
wires running across the road in my path, altitude and speed allowed me
to overfly 5 of them , as I approached the last set made the decision to
fly over #5 and under #6. Prolly could have overflown #6 too but
speed/altitude were was depleting. Remembered the 2 rules vividly.
Nice plan but the devil is in the details, plenty of clearance on the
wires but flew the plane into the road, folded the gear up to the point
that the wheels dented the wing tanks, slid to a stop, hopped out
(expecting a fire) before the plane stopped. no fire, tanks intact but
dented.
Half a dozen spectators stopped quickly, one of them took me to my
house 2 blocks away where I got my truck and boat trailer, 10-12 of us
lifted the plane onto the trailer and I had it locked up in my hangar 20
min after touchdown, no TV, no newspaper, sheriff, FAA etc. WHEW !!
I had flown the RV about 500 hrs and had practiced engine outs many
times with an idling engine.
There is a BIG difference between idling and engine stopped in sink
rate. BIG difference.
Had a sore butt for a month and the seat belt bruises were world class
but the rest was just aluminum distress which is easier to fix than
compressed vertebrae. Lucky that day !
Still don't understand why I flew it into the road, have done a couple
hundred of beach, off airport landings in the RV prior to that and was
comfortable (maybe too comfortable) in the airplane.
John
Message 4
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Please remove me from the list
Best,
Brian
Message 5
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Great post Lee,
I had similar experience with my early flights and even had to land 5
minutes after takeoff as my CHTs soared into the high 400s.
I have 10:1 forged racing pistons with ceramic heads and moly b coated
sides. My engine took 140 hours to finally break the last cylinder in.
Until it is broke in, temps are a big problem. You found many ways to
mitigate the problem but I'll bet your engine is still just running hot
due to a slow and long breakin period. Consider this, the Rocket is so
light that the engine does not have enough load on it to do its breakin
in the normal amount of time. I started running mine 24" at 2200 rpm in
an attempt to load it up and that is when the final cylinder broke in.
I also reduced my timing to 22 deg BTDC to help with the increased
compression.
Additionally, some local success has be realized by adding a small
downward lip on the aft edge of the lower cowl to create a low pressure
area where the cooling air is exiting the cowl. This seems to
accellerate that cooling air which then allows more air to flow through
your cowl. Jim Winnings did this with success. I was about to try it
when my engine normalize.
My normal numbers are 325 or so on CHTs and I lean to 50 deg LOP after
level off and a few potatoes for CHT cooling and stabilizing.
Hang in there, you will enjoy it much more when you don't have to worry
so much about engine temps.
Jim Stone
Louisville KY
Friend of Ben Cunningham
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Logan
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Road Landing
Ernest (Sorry this is so long, but maybe it will help and will be
worth your time to read it): I believe it is a settled fact that
Rockets have more than enough inlet and exit area to cool just fine. If
you have a good cooler, good baffling, smooth inlets, an adequate
outlet, and no engine/oil/magneto/sparkplug/FI issues---it will (or can
be made to) run cool, if it is properly broken in. In my case, I used
the RV-10 baffling kit which was a good start but installed "stock"
wasn't just right for my engine.
I started with 400+ cylinder head temps and 240+ oil. So, I created a
systematic plan to go though the cooling system an item at a time.
Developed a "root cause" analysis and stuck with it. I learned not to
take anything for granted and question everything. The cooling system
on any aircraft engine is truly a "system", everything is interrelated.
I got countless recommendations from the usual suspects at the airport
and all the ideas were good---the invariable problem with them was that
they didn't know what was wrong with MY airplane any more than I did.
"Check your timing, my uncle did and it fixed his problem", "You've got
fouled plugs, my cousin checked his when his engine ran hot and sure
enough, 3 of them were fouled", etc. etc. I heard that constantly. If
anyone had ever actually diagnosed my airplane to a real-world root
cause, the solution would have been obvious. Solutions are easy, it's
figuring out what's wrong that is hard---and here is the major pain in
all this: Unless you find an obvious smoking gun, you may have to do
like I did---just keep modifying and verifying until the temps go down.
Change things one at a time; whatever doesn't improve things, change it
back.
I went through the vernatherm, the cooler, the connections, the oil
itself, the filter, the pump, etc. I swapped vernatherms, tested
vernatherms, honed the vernatherm seat, even flew it with a blanked off
vernatherm (temp went up). I flipped the cooler (to eliminate air
pockets), verified the oil lines were connected to the right openings in
the accessory case, tested both oil temp gages, tested both oil pressure
gages, flow tested the (brand new Stewart Warner) cooler and lines,
drained the oil to verify the right amount was on board, swapped oil
filters, used a laser temp gage to verify consistent oil temps
throughout the engine to "prove" I had proper engine-wide flow (sump,
hoses, front, back, sides, top and bottom of the cooler, cylinder heads,
barrels, crankcase, accessory case) etc. Over time, I decided it was
not the oil system.
Went through engine baffles in detail and sealed everything. No leak
is too small to fill with RTV. CHT's dropped 10 degrees; reprofiled
upper cowl ramps, temps dropped 5 degrees. Cut down the baffle plates
in front of cylinders 1 and 2 incrementally, and their temps went down
3-5 degrees each time. Ended up with no baffles in front of 1 and 2
above the inlet ramps. Incrementally removed trailing edge of aft lower
cowl (the cowling inlet opening/exit opening areas in effect, "throttle"
the airflow through the cowling). Hint: The air going through cowling
does not heat up very much in the process of cooling the engine (8-10
degrees, I'm told), it's FLOW that makes the system work. Oil temp came
down along with these changes but not as fast. Sometimes very modest
changes to the baffles (sealing, trimming) and the exit/outlet size,
made large differences to the temps I saw. The oil temps came down too
with the plummeting CHT's but still stayed way too high for me.
Decided the oil cooler wasn't getting its share of the flow. My
cooler was fed by a 4" opening in the right aft baffle feeding through a
smooth silicon rubber hose. Added small baffles to channel air into the
oil cooler opening (temps dropped 5 degrees), added 3" under-cowl hose
to route air from left cowling inlet direct to the cooler (no
effect/removed it). Removed baffle elements directly in front of the
cylinder barrels (the baffles in front of the cylinder heads were
already long gone). Oil temps went up. Added "flow" baffles in front
of barrells angled back toward rear (instead of the vertical ones that
came with the RV-10 baffle kit). Oil temps back down slightly but still
high.
Decided that the 4" oil cooler opening was not big enough. Fabricated
and installed a full cooler sized opening and air path. This took the
oil cooler inlet area from just over 12 sq. in. to 24. I figured this
was the "big fix" the oil system needed to finally fall into line with
the cylinders. Didn't work; no change in oil temps but cylinder temps
went back up (marginally). Fabricated and installed a plenum on the
back side of the oil cooler feeding a 4" hose routed down to the lower
cowl outlet. Theory was that backflow/backpressure in the lower cowling
was inhibiting flow through the cooler. Plan was to go full size with
an all new plenum and outlet if there was any improvement at all. There
wasn't any.
What the heck? So... I went through the engine: Changed timing down
by 5 degrees; whole system got hotter and power seemed "off". Changed
it back. Pulled all the plugs (they were fine); compression checked
fine.
Okay. If the engine is good and the oil system is good and the inlets
and outlet are reasonably close, the cylinder head temps are (now) low,
but the oil temp is still above 210 in cruise (at least it is down from
the original 240+), what does that leave? This cowling and oil cooler
combination is working fine on other Rockets with smaller oil cooler
inlets. Decided I would reinstate my flight test program and "live"
with the 210 degree oil temp. OAT's had been highish all summer (80
degrees plus, at altitude). My DAR buddy was convinced that the engine
was already broken in and running as cool as it was going to run in and
of itself. I wasn't so sure. Decided to try one more thing before
continuing the flight test program. I cut a small NACA scoop in the
lower cowl centerline about 2/3 of the way aft of the fuel injection
inlet to the trailing edge of the cowl. It didn't go anywhere, just
brought additional air in from the outside and exhausted it immediately
out of the lower cowl a few inches in front of the lower trailing edge
lip. The theory was that that little "tornado" of air would entrain the
slow moving air in the lower cowl and facilitate it in moving more
rapidly to the cowling exit. Flew the airplane and bingo! The oil temp
dropped to 190 on both gages (I have two independent oil temp and
pressure gages). BUT: OAT was down to 45 degrees that day. Did the
NACA scoop really work that well, did the engine just break in, or was
the OAT effect that dramatic? I only got to fly it once like this
before business trips intervened.
In the meantime I had to pull my engine monitor and ship it back for
recalibration (unrelated to my cooling problems). Down for three weeks.
Finally flew it today for the second time since the NACA scoop was
installed. OAT up to 58, oil temp down to 185! What finally did the
trick? I don't know yet but I will keep you informed. The airport
closes tomorrow for 2-3 weeks for resurfacing. I moved my Rocket to a
nearby field though so I can continue my test flights. First up: Seal
the NACA scoop and see what happens. I will do that Saturday. I'm
hoping for a couple of hotter days, so I can gage a broader range of OAT
effects. Could be that my engine in fact just broke in and that was the
"remainder" of the problem all along; we'll know in a few days.
Honest, sorry for the long post but I wanted to get this all straight
in my own mind too. Hope those who are facing the same problems will
benefit too.
Regards,
Lee...
Message 6
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I am looking forward to the day.
Ernest
On 11/6/09 7:34 AM, "Rob Ray" <smokyray@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Ernest,
>
> I run electronic ignition with automotive plugs, no worries (a set of 1
2 is
> less than $20!). My CHT's are so cool now, I never see over 375 climbing
on a
> hot day, I am blessed!
>
> Smokey
>
> --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Sprayers@aol.com <Sprayers@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Sprayers@aol.com <Sprayers@aol.com>
>> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: High Temps!
>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 6:16 PM
>>
>> This high temp. ---have you checked your timing (mags)...i see you have1
0-1
>> pistons. barrett in tulsa times his engines with these pistons at 23deg.
>> (your c4b5) plate on eng says 25 deg. look at the 8.7 to 1 pistons in ly
c.
>> 290 hp engines (most are 20deg).good luck sprayers@aol.com
>> <http://us.mc1102.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sprayers@aol.com>
>>
>> In a message dated 11/5/2009 7:25:18 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>> smokyray@rocketmail.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> Ernest,
>>>
>>> Let me know how it works out, I will take a photo of my lower cowl in c
ase
>>> you want to compare...:)
>>> Smokey
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: High Temps!
>>>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>>>> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 2:25 PM
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Smokey, I will look at that, I also have the stock Harmon Cowl.
My
>>>> compression is the same as yours as well, hopefully I can get it runni
ng
>>>> like yours.
>>>>
>>>> Ernest
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/5/09 4:34 PM, "Rob Ray" <smokyray@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ernest,
>>>>> An aeronautical engineer once told me that exit area should exceed
inlet
>>>>> area by 1.5%. I carefully measured my inlets and my exit area and end
ed up
>>>>> finding my exhaust pipes ate up alot of my exit area. I started by cu
tting
>>>>> quite a bit off my lower cowl in the shape of a U with the bottom of
the U
>>>>> even with the lower engine mount tube.I also moved my oil cooler to a
30
>>>>> degree angle and went to #8 lines. BTW, I have a stock Harmon cowl wi
th a
>>>>> C4B5 injected with 10.0 Compression, Ly-Con cyllinders.
>>>>> After the modifications I cruise now at 9500' at 20"/2350 RPM with 1
80
>>>>> oil, 310 average on all 6, 10.5 GPH, 188 Knots TAS. If I run 21 Squar
ed
>>>>> down low my cyllinders run at 285, oil at 160 and fuel flow at 6.9 GP
H.
>>>>> Hope that helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Smokey
>>>>> HR2
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Road Landing
>>>>>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>>>>>> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 8:06 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Huge is I am putting 18 gph through my engine at 6,000=B9 to maintain
a
>>>>>> CHT of 415 or so. On climb out I can hit 440 in minutes. I have
>>>>>> replaced the baffling, reconstructed the bottom of the top cowling t
o get
>>>>>> better flow, placed a lip on the bottom of the engine outlet to prom
ote a
>>>>>> suction to help pull air through the engine. We are about to build
>>>>>> extensions onto the air inlets in the front of the cowling to hopefu
lly
>>>>>> force more air through. I was having a bad time with oil temps earl
ier
>>>>>> and fixed that by adding another oil cooler so now I have 2 of those
.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ernest
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/5/09 10:41 AM, "Michael W Stewart" <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com> w
rote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ernest.
>>>>>>> What is Huge?
>>>>>>> What is High?
>>>>>>> What have you done to this point to solve the problem?
>>>>>>> With this information we can begin to help you.
>>>>>>> There are a hundred things to list to do, We should start with wher
e you
>>>>>>> are and what you have done.
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>> do not archive
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ernest Hale ---11/05/2009 09:59:18 AM---I have a huge problem with
high
>>>>>>> cylinder head temps, what was your method of success in getting you
r
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>> Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>> <rocket-list@matronics.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date:
>>>>>>> 11/05/2009 09:59 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject:
>>>>>>> Re: Rocket-List: Re: Road Landing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent by:
>>>>>>> owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a huge problem with high cylinder head temps, what was your
>>>>>>> method of success in getting yours in range?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ernest
>>>>>>> N540HB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/5/09 8:22 AM, "Lee Logan" <leeloganster@gmail.com
>>>>>>> <leeloganster@gmail.com> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Smokey: That's pretty much the way I figure it, but as I drive a
round
>>>>>>>>> this area, I see power lines everywhere. Our major north-south
>>>>>>>>> highway is I-95 (or Navaid 95, as it is known locally!) is fine b
ut it
>>>>>>>>> is very busy. Your chances of getting down unscathed are good, I
>>>>>>>>> suspect, but your chances of clearing 95 unscathed are much less.
>>>>>>>>> The frontage road is better in that respect and has few powerline
s
>>>>>>>>> itself. I just don't figure I'll be so lucky as to have an Inter
state
>>>>>>>>> or frontage road handy when I need one!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My plan has always been to look for the houses on our rural roads
and
>>>>>>>>> to land beyond one and short of the next, if at all possible. Th
at
>>>>>>>>> way, I figure I've got a good starting point for the possibility
of a
>>>>>>>>> clear landing. I'll have to make a couple of practice passes nex
t
>>>>>>>>> time I'm up to see how easy the power lines themselves are to spo
t
>>>>>>>>> from cruising altitude (not hard from 1,000' as I recall but norm
ally
>>>>>>>>> you'd be pretty committed by then, I would think). I would reall
y
>>>>>>>>> like to be able to pick my spot early in an engine out situation,
but
>>>>>>>>> I don't know how absolutely practical that is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My Rocket is running much better. My last flight before I took i
t
>>>>>>>>> down for 2-3 weeks of updates was very good with cylinder temps i
n the
>>>>>>>>> 320-350 range and the oil temp at 190-195. I'm very pleased with
that
>>>>>>>>> and assuming it will be the same once I get it back in the air, I
will
>>>>>>>>> quickly finish the rest of my operation/flight testing and call i
t
>>>>>>>>> ready for prime time. I've made arrangements for final painting
>>>>>>>>> shortly thereafter, so all is well!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have a great weekend!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lee...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> onth --
>>>>>>>>> me AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
>>>>>>>>> ="http//www.aeroelectric.com'
>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com%22%3ehttp//www.aeroelectric.com
"
>>>>>>>>> target=_blank
>>>>>>>>> rel=nofollow>http://www.aeroelectric.com">http://www.aeroelectric
.com>
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.buildersbooks.com/> >
>>>>>>>>> ef="http//www.homebuilthelp.com'
>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com%22%3ehttp//www.homebuilthelp.c
om"
>>>>>>>>> target=_blank
>>>>>>>>>
rel=nofollow>http://www.homebuilthelp.com">http://www.homebuilthelp.co>>>>>
>>>>
m
>
>
Message 7
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Re: Rocket-List: High Temps!The louvers are stationary, cant remember
where I bought them, I think it was Van's AC but they are about 4" X 12"
AL plate with louvers stamped in them. They made a difference but not
much. I installed an electronic ignition and put an extra oil cooler on
the right side where the mag used to be, and those changes along with
opening up the exit area more solved my cooling problems. On 100 degree
days I can keep the oil at 200 and CHTs below 380. Running LOP will
bring the cht's down even more.
Good luck Ernest, wer'e pullin for ya !
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Ernest Hale
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: High Temps!
Thanks for the info, it is all very valuable. How do you control the
louvers, of do they stay open all the time.
E
On 11/5/09 6:46 PM, "Kevin Shannon" <kshannon@seanet.com> wrote:
I have trimmed my lower cowl off a couple times too, and added
louvers under the exhaust on both sides. On hot days 95 and above
running lean of peak brings the cht's down pretty quick. I also added a
second oil cooler which is controllable from the cockpit.
Kevin Shannon
HR2
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Ray <mailto:smokyray@rocketmail.com>
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:34 PM
Subject: Rocket-List: High Temps!
Ernest,
An aeronautical engineer once told me that exit area should
exceed inlet area by 1.5%. I carefully measured my inlets and my exit
area and ended up finding my exhaust pipes ate up alot of my exit area.
I started by cutting quite a bit off my lower cowl in the shape of a U
with the bottom of the U even with the lower engine mount tube.I also
moved my oil cooler to a 30 degree angle and went to #8 lines. BTW, I
have a stock Harmon cowl with a C4B5 injected with 10.0 Compression,
Ly-Con cyllinders.
After the modifications I cruise now at 9500' at 20"/2350 RPM
with 180 oil, 310 average on all 6, 10.5 GPH, 188 Knots TAS. If I run 21
Squared down low my cyllinders run at 285, oil at 160 and fuel flow at
6.9 GPH. Hope that helps.
Smokey
HR2
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com> wrote:
From: Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Road Landing
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 8:06 AM
Huge is I am putting 18 gph through my engine at 6,000' to
maintain a CHT of 415 or so. On climb out I can hit 440 in minutes. I
have replaced the baffling, reconstructed the bottom of the top cowling
to get better flow, placed a lip on the bottom of the engine outlet to
promote a suction to help pull air through the engine. We are about to
build extensions onto the air inlets in the front of the cowling to
hopefully force more air through. I was having a bad time with oil
temps earlier and fixed that by adding another oil cooler so now I have
2 of those.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ernest
On 11/5/09 10:41 AM, "Michael W Stewart"
<mike.stewart@us.ibm.com> wrote:
Ernest.
What is Huge?
What is High?
What have you done to this point to solve the problem?
With this information we can begin to help you.
There are a hundred things to list to do, We should start
with where you are and what you have done.
Mike
do not archive
Ernest Hale ---11/05/2009 09:59:18 AM---I have a huge problem
with high cylinder head temps, what was your method of success in
getting your
From:
Ernest Hale <ernest@flmitigation.com>
To:
<rocket-list@matronics.com>
Date:
11/05/2009 09:59 AM
Subject:
Re: Rocket-List: Re: Road Landing
Sent by:
owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a huge problem with high cylinder head temps, what was
your method of success in getting yours in range?
Ernest
N540HB
On 11/5/09 8:22 AM, "Lee Logan" <leeloganster@gmail.com
<leeloganster@gmail.com> > wrote:
Smokey: That's pretty much the way I figure it, but as I
drive around this area, I see power lines everywhere. Our major
north-south highway is I-95 (or Navaid 95, as it is known locally!) is
fine but it is very busy. Your chances of getting down unscathed are
good, I suspect, but your chances of clearing 95 unscathed are much
less. The frontage road is better in that respect and has few
powerlines itself. I just don't figure I'll be so lucky as to have an
Interstate or frontage road handy when I need one!
My plan has always been to look for the houses on our
rural roads and to land beyond one and short of the next, if at all
possible. That way, I figure I've got a good starting point for the
possibility of a clear landing. I'll have to make a couple of practice
passes next time I'm up to see how easy the power lines themselves are
to spot from cruising altitude (not hard from 1,000' as I recall but
normally you'd be pretty committed by then, I would think). I would
really like to be able to pick my spot early in an engine out
situation, but I don't know how absolutely practical that is.
My Rocket is running much better. My last flight before
I took it down for 2-3 weeks of updates was very good with cylinder
temps in the 320-350 range and the oil temp at 190-195. I'm very
pleased with that and assuming it will be the same once I get it back
in the air, I will quickly finish the rest of my operation/flight
testing and call it ready for prime time. I've made arrangements for
final painting shortly thereafter, so all is well!
Have a great weekend!
Lee...
onth --
me AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
="http://www.aeroelectric.com' target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.aeroelectric.com">http://www.aeroelectric.com
<http://www.aeroelectric.com"> >
<http://www.buildersbooks.com
<http://www.buildersbooks.com/> >
ef="http://www.homebuilthelp.com' target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.homebuilthelp.com">http://www.homebuilthelp.com
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com"> >
://www.matronics.com/contribution
; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Email Forum -
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
matronics.com
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com/">www.aeroelectric.com
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ildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List>
p.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List>
ion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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- Release Date: 11/05/09 00:37:00
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11/05/09 12:52:00
Message 8
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| Subject: | And a teeny bit more on road and off-airport landings from |
another who's done it...
....if John's was a nickel, here's my 2c worth...
I've had 2 engine failures in my RV4 (problem now traced & fixed - old
style carb & inlet meant ineffective carb heat) and have landed on a
road once, as a precautionary measure due bad weather, but no engine or
airframe problems, in the Rocket.
I was trained to choose fields over roads, and I think, in general,
that's a wise policy. Reasons include
- wires, which are invisible from afar
- roads can be very narrow & curved, plus sloped, which can mean a loss
of directional control leads to going off the road and...
- hitting poles etc
- traffic
I think it's worth making a distinction bw landing on a US-style
freeway, and landing on a backcountry road. Certainly an empty-ish
freeway would be very tempting. With heavy traffic, not so much.
Backcountry road? They can be VERY narrow, not necessarily straight, and
are often strewn with obstacles, ditches beside them, and all manner of
dangerous things. In an engine failure situation, I'm more concerned
about finding somewhere flat & obstacle free (& WIRE free!!) than saving
the aircraft, and in general, I would take a field over a backcountry
road, nearly every time, UNLESS it's a autobahn/freeway, I could be
reasonably sure about wires, and the traffic is not too bad. I think
it's really important to remember that if the engine has quit, the
aircraft is expendable, getting in trouble with authorities is
irelevant, and saving oneself & one's passengers MUST be the
highest/only priority. The aircraft has already let you down at that
stage, so it's expendable. I reckon it's worth thinking about that on
the ground, in advance, so there's no hesitation if the decision ever
had to be made for real.
It's true that RV4s and other taildraggers can overturn easily on rough
surfaces - Rockets even more so - but my exerience of exactly that
happening, on a field, was that a lot of speed was bled off before that
happening. Touch down at, say, 50 knots...and the kinetic energy
absorbed by the first few feet of rollout, and the overturn itself,
means it can happen at pretty low speed, say 30 knots or less, making
the overturn a very survivable event.
I reckon there's also worthwhile distinction between having to do all
this because of engine failure, and a precautionary landing with a
properly functioning aircraft. In the former case, you're committed,
can't overshoot, etc, and in nearly all cases of engine failure I'd take
a field, unless I was REALLY sure that the road had no wires, was wide
enough, etc. (ie, prior local knowledge). In the latter case, with
plenty of time & ability to reconnoitre, even to signal to someone on
the ground to block the road, by doing dummy approaches and hoping
someone cottons on to your intent...... a road, with its reliable
surface and lower chance of tipping upside down, is more appealing, and
you have the TIME to check for wires and stuff.
Also worth bearing in mind the kind of landing to make - the RV4, and to
a lesser degree the Rocket, touches down pretty slow in a 3-point
attitude. It's easy to accidentally carry a bit of extra airspeed in
these situations, which leads to a wheeler landing, and that extra speed
will make an overturn more likely. So it's a 3-pointer, in most cases,
with full flap of course.
And, finally, when the Big Silence happens for real, it's hard to be
entirely calm and rational. Roads "feel" safer, in part because of their
familiarity, but I think it would be easy to miss wires, poles etc when
the chips are down and the adrenalin starts flowing. Fields leave more
margin, if dead sticking an aircraft very precisely into a very small
space is not something one practices every day, and if fear, lack of
currency, or whatever, means one doesn't do it perfectly. (Which is to
be expected!!)
Bottom line is, nearly all engine failure situations are survivable,
even walk-away-able from, IF one can get the aircraft into the beginning
of a field or other flat area, at minimum airspeed and virtually zero
ROD at touch down. It's the solid ojects that'll hurt ya - and there are
a lot of those around roads.
a
PS One thing I've noticed - quite a few RV4s and Rockets seem to fly
around with no rollbar. ("Rollover bar", in American-speak?). No
criticism or controvery-sparking intended in any of this, but
personally, I won't fly without one - a good, solid bar which matches
the interior shape of the canopy (ie, a broad inverted "U" shape) is, I
reckon, the best neck-saving, anti-engine-failure insurance going.
I hope that's maybe useful to someone, someday.
a
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: rocket cooling |
Jim: Good to hear from you and thanks for checking in. Be sure to say hello
and Happy Birthday to Bosco for me. Great guy!! Remind him he promised to
show up here in his -7 one of these days.
BTW, I agree with your analysis...in fact, though I didn't mention it, I
installed a small external lip on my lower cowl exit also. It worked just
as you advertise in your email. I didn't want it to be permanent
(aesthetics), so cut another 1/2" to 1" off the cowl trailing edge
(eliminating the lip) and that produced the same reduction in temperatures.
Stuck with that.
The other issue you raised was break-in. I was never convinced that my
engine had gone "over the top" all the way to break-in as I was being told
by others. Not only is my engine is an interesting hybrid (IO-540K1G5 case
and crank, with ECi parallel valve cylinders and 9,5:1 forged pistons) that
was put together for my by my friend Bart Dalton in Oklahoma. He suggested
this engine "mixture" as being super strong, powerful, and reliable. I'm
pretty sure he is exactly right. I started it from day one on Phillips X/C
20W50 and just couldn't see how it could be broken in in only 15-18 hours.
I will close up the NACA scoop tomorrow and see if there is any difference
in oil temps. My cylinders are now running in the low 300's at cruise.
I don't have the injectors sorted out on mine yet, so I'm not where you are
on LOP, but I can pull it back pretty seriously and it still runs well. I'm
a gallon or better apart cylinder to cylinder going over peak, so I've got
some work to do there.
Regards and thanks for the info,
Lee...
On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com> wrote:
> Great post Lee,
>
> I had similar experience with my early flights and even had to land 5
> minutes after takeoff as my CHTs soared into the high 400s.
> I have 10:1 forged racing pistons with ceramic heads and moly b coated
> sides. My engine took 140 hours to finally break the last cylinder in.
> Until it is broke in, temps are a big problem. You found many ways to
> mitigate the problem but I'll bet your engine is still just running hot due
> to a slow and long breakin period. Consider this, the Rocket is so light
> that the engine does not have enough load on it to do its breakin in the
> normal amount of time. I started running mine 24" at 2200 rpm in an attempt
> to load it up and that is when the final cylinder broke in. I also reduced
> my timing to 22 deg BTDC to help with the increased compression.
> Additionally, some local success has be realized by adding a small downward
> lip on the aft edge of the lower cowl to create a low pressure area where
> the cooling air is exiting the cowl. This seems to accellerate that cooling
> air which then allows more air to flow through your cowl. Jim Winnings did
> this with success. I was about to try it when my engine normalize.
> My normal numbers are 325 or so on CHTs and I lean to 50 deg LOP after
> level off and a few potatoes for CHT cooling and stabilizing.
> Hang in there, you will enjoy it much more when you don't have to worry so
> much about engine temps.
>
> Jim Stone
> Louisville KY
> Friend of Ben Cunningham
>
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