Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:56 AM - Re: Re: Dresden (Pat Ladd)
2. 06:39 AM - 9/11 (Rob Ray)
3. 12:26 PM - Re: 9/11 (Pat Ladd)
Message 1
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<<Thank you for that reality-check, Pat, perhaps more relevant with the
anniversary of 9/11 than at any other time. >>
Thanks for the replies that my intervention has provoked. I would
rather have kept this off list but there was no private return address.
Delighted to continue anydiscussion that you like off list
Cheers
Pat
<<Razing museums and killing civilians hoping that the enemy will feel
the pain and stop fighting only works if the enemy fears losing its
civilians and its cities.>>
I don`t think that anyone, even in 1940, wanted to waste bombs on
`museums and civilians`. They got hit because the average bomb aimer
couldn`t put a bomb within 5 miles of his target.
<<With today's technology such a scenario is unlikely to occur again
since arm-chair pilots sitting in lounge-like settings flying pilotless
drones can go in.>>
Thats what they said in 1940. " the B-17 box formation was impregnable".
Until the Me 109`s drove head on straight through the formation, broke
it up and then picked off the individuals.
"The Norden bombsight will enable us to put a bomb in a barrel from
20,000 ft" This was a bit later on when the Norden sight was introduced
but it couldn`t do anything like that in combat conditions. In any case
the lead bomb aimer ran the sight and everyone else, spread over 10
miles of sky pickled their bombs when they saw his drop and spread their
bombs over ten miles of territory..
<<These are people who swore allegiance to a mythical figure represented
by remotely located clerics who have indoctrinated their people to
consider the pain of civilian-killings and museum-razing as passports to
pie-in-the-sky rewards for being killed.>>
You mean like being taught that there is a God by your local pastor and
hoping to go to Heaven when you die? Maybe your local cleric wasn`t so
specific about the availability of virgins but the message is pretty
much the same. All armies fight in the belief that God is on their side.
You have `In God we Trust` The Germans have `Gott mit Uns` on their belt
buckles. The `Christian` Crusaders from Britain, France, Germany who,
after the seige stood the entire population of Acre, men women and
children, in line and killed them all by mace or sword or axe or dagger.
It took two days. They all had The Holy Cross emblazoned on their
surcoats and banners to `legalise` their actions.
<< such as snake-oil salesmen who can dematerialize and transmit
themselves in real time into millions of people's homes at the same
instant, assemble themselves again and speak to the nation eye-to-eye in
their living rooms. Television, for example>>
Like that Koran burning pastor down in Gainesville for instance.
<<We allowed the enemy into our country when their only distinction was
that they were foreigners. And now those powers that keep us safe also
prevent us from solving the problem. >>
Dont forget the very extensive pro nazi faction alread in many
countries (including the UK) in the 1930.`s. There were many solid
citizens, not of foreign antecedents, in both our countries who thought
Hitler was the best thing since sliced bread. Many of them changed their
minds when the bombs began to fall and yours changed after Ed Murrow.
We still interned, in terrible conditions, many loyal people with
blameless records just because they had German names or Austrian
grandparents. Once that paranoia gets loose where does it stop? Remember
the Macarthy witch hunts. Lives ruined for the slimmest, or no reason.
<<It won't be resolved with drones hitting military targets elsewhere. .
How's that for bad options on the horizon of choices that will require a
decision sooner rather than later. >>
Pretty miserable outlook isn`t it? In the meantime, the sun is shining,
there is a blue sky with scattered Cu. at 4000ft. I think I will get
the plane out.
Cheers
Pat
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:11 PM
Message 2
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Guys,
-
-Though not HR2 related, -I appreciate the history lesson. Having serve
d much more recently in our current contingencies, -9/11 is a glowing dat
e on my calendar every year. I was awakened at 0600 PST on 9/11/01 in my ho
tel room by the 737 Captain (a Viet Nam veteran)- I flew in the night bef
ore. I turned on my TV to witness what would be the second aircraft strikin
g the World Trade center. Three hours later my ANG unit would call to infor
m me I was activated and needed to get home ASAP. Six days later I was patr
olling the east coast in a combat loaded F-16C, defending my own homeland.
I would later escort Air Force One to my hometown airport and CAP (combat a
ir patrol) right over the street where I grew up.
- Over the next four years our unit would serve three rotations to Iraq s
upporting special forces and searching for terrorists in the far reaches of
the world. The deployments would stretch our abilities, hone our skills an
d make us closer than any group on the planet. The missions were long and c
hallenging. I have heard young voices over the radio screaming for help at
0300 AM and dropped bombs closer than I could imagine to kids barely old er
nough to drive, let alone vote. What's the longest minute you can imagine?
The 60 second bomb fall time from when you release to impact with friendlie
s in contact. I have heard the sad news over the radio when we didn't quite
get to the scene fast enough and there were "KIA's" to recover. I have see
n the sun go down and come back up on the same long patrol and marveled at
how beautiful the sunrise was, even after people we supported didn't live t
hrough the night to see it.-
---When queried about my service and to what end our involvement over
seas entails I tell people this. The attack on 9/11 was a premeditated act
of terrorism and murder of innocent civilians. It took place in a US city o
n US soil by a group of twisted individuals who believed it was their right
to do so. Therefore I believe in our right to hunt them down and bring the
m justice, in whatever form that may be. I would return tomorrow if they wo
uld let me. Through it all I was thankful to be a US citizen enjoying the f
reedoms we all share including owning a cool airplane. I am also-very pro
ud of our kids serving in very tough-circumstances across the globe.-
-
I was even more proud that I could be there for them.
-
Smokey
HR2
-
--- On Sun, 9/12/10, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com> wrote:
From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: Dresden
<<Thank you for that reality-check, Pat, perhaps more relevant with the ann
iversary of 9/11 than at any other time. >>
Thanks for the replies that my intervention has provoked.- I would rather
have kept this off list but there was no private return address.
Delighted to continue anydiscussion- that- you like off list
Cheers
Pat
<<Razing museums and killing civilians hoping that the enemy will feel the
pain and stop fighting only works if the enemy fears losing its civilians a
nd its cities.>>
I don`t think that anyone, even in 1940, wanted to waste bombs on `museums
and civilians`. They got hit because the average bomb aimer couldn`t put a
bomb within 5 miles of his target.
<<With today's technology such a scenario is unlikely to occur again since
arm-chair pilots sitting in lounge-like settings flying pilotless drones ca
n go in.>>
Thats what they said in 1940. " the B-17 box formation was impregnable". Un
til the Me 109`s- drove head on straight through the formation, broke it
up and then picked off the individuals.
"The Norden bombsight will enable us to put a bomb in a barrel from 20,000
ft"- This was a bit later on when the Norden sight was introduced but it
couldn`t do anything like that in combat conditions. In any case the lead b
omb aimer ran the sight and everyone else, spread over 10 miles of sky pick
led their bombs when they saw his drop and spread their bombs over ten mile
s of territory..
<<These are people who swore allegiance to a mythical figure represented by
remotely located clerics who have indoctrinated their people to consider t
he pain of civilian-killings and museum-razing as passports to pie-in-the-s
ky rewards for being killed.>>
-You mean like being taught that there is a God by your local pastor and
hoping to go to Heaven when you die?- Maybe your local cleric wasn`t so s
pecific about the availability of virgins but the message is pretty much th
e same. All armies fight in the belief that God is on their side. You have
`In God we Trust` The Germans have `Gott mit Uns` on their belt buckles. Th
e `Christian` Crusaders from Britain, France, Germany-who, after the seig
e- stood the entire population of Acre, men women and children, in line a
nd killed them all by mace or sword or axe or dagger. It took two days. The
y all had The Holy Cross emblazoned on their surcoats and banners to `legal
ise` their actions.
<<-such as snake-oil salesmen who can dematerialize and transmit themselv
es in real time into millions of people's homes at the same instant, assemb
le themselves again and speak to the nation eye-to-eye in their living room
s. Television, for example>>
Like that Koran burning pastor down in Gainesville for instance.
<<We allowed the enemy into our country when their only distinction was tha
t they were foreigners. And now those powers that keep us safe also prevent
us from solving the problem. >>
Dont forget the very extensive pro nazi faction alread in- many countries
(including the UK) in the 1930.`s.- There were many solid citizens, not
of foreign antecedents,-in both our countries who thought Hitler was the
best thing since sliced bread. Many of them changed their minds when the bo
mbs began to fall and yours changed- after Ed Murrow. We still interned,
in terrible conditions, -many loyal people with blameless records just be
cause they- had German names or Austrian grandparents. Once that paranoia
gets loose where does it stop? Remember the Macarthy witch hunts. Lives ru
ined for the slimmest, or no reason.
<<It won't be resolved with drones hitting military targets elsewhere. . Ho
w's that for bad options on the horizon of choices that will require a deci
sion sooner rather than later. >>
Pretty miserable outlook isn`t it?- In the meantime, the sun is shining,
there is a blue sky with- scattered Cu. at 4000ft. I think I will get the
plane out.
Cheers
Pat
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:11 PM
=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
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It took place in a US city on US soil by a group of twisted individuals
>>
Hi Rob,
I think that is the bit to bear in mind, `a group of twisted
individuals` NOT Islam in general. Although I agree that it is hard to
take when the TV screens show dancing in the streets after 9/11..There
is no doubt that many people the world over, although they would not
have dreamed of mounting an attack on America or even on an American
citizen, secretly felt a a little surge of glee that America was being
taken down a peg.
I know that it is unfair, that America has been unstinting in aid in
men,money and materials in every emergency and to many people the world
over. What America has contributed to the world is incalculable but
everyone likes to see the top dog thumped. It was the same when the
world was mainly the British Empire. Everyone wanted us out, gone,
defeated, no matter what good we had done in stopping local wars,
treating disease, introducing law and order, building up a
infrastructure to run a country. OUT. OUT. OUT.
We were what you are now. Rich, powerful, arrogant, convinced that that
there is only one world, our world because that is the BEST. One way,
OUR way.
Nobody loves conquerors, no matter how benign or well intentioned they
may be. In spite of all the benefits we hated the Romans, the Normans.
The Indians hated us. The French hated us because we occupied their
country,
Americans are disliked, hated, pick your word, because you have
conquered the world economically and culturally. I dislike you because
the kids wear Nikes and there is no shoe industry here now. Because
there is Cocacola everywhere, Starbucks on every corner. Why does
eveyone say `9/11 intead of the 9th of September.Its inexplicable. It
just IS. It is not the way I am used to.Its human nature.
If you also represented the values that my religion teaches me (Imagine
that I am a Fundamentalist) are evil, allowing women to expose their
faces, expect to be treated equally by men, and generally treat my
deeply held beliefs with scorn then I could imagine getting pretty riled
up.It is change and I do not like change and I will fight to uphold the
old ways.
Stupid isn`t it, but it is a fact.
Enough with the lecture. You have had some great experiences thank you
for sharing them with us. You are a lucky man
Cheers
Pat ( I had much rather all this was taking place off list)
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