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1. 10:17 AM - Re: Starting problem (Jim Stone)
2. 10:18 AM - Re: Starting problem (Jim Stone)
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| Subject: | Re: Starting problem |
Hi Bruce,
After another discussion with Mike at ElectroAir, he is convinced that the c
rank sensor is not sensing correctly during engine start. We know this beca
use the light in the EIS, should alternate green/red almost immediately afte
r starter engagement indicating the sensor is reading the missing tooth in t
he crank gear ring. Mike says that since it works fine after start, there m
ay be a problem with the high voltage starter cable from the coil could be a
ffecting the sensor's signal to the EIS. My current situation requires 8-10
seconds of cranking before I get any green /red indication on the EIS. He a
sked if the two wires were bundled together, they were not. They do however c
ross and touch at one spot just under the starter where they are zip tied to
gether.
I plan to have one last look around for a cause of bad sensor information go
ing to the EIS and then I plan to remove the propeller and have a look at th
e crank sensor and ring gear on the crank. Perhaps the ring gear or sensor t
o ring gear gap has changed. I plan to go ahead and replace the crank sens
or while I'm in there to rule out a possible bag wire or shielding.
Thanks for your help and input,
Jim stone
> On Aug 14, 2015, at 11:31 PM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> My apologies for the late reply.
>
> How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start? Here is t
he typical cold start for me. It typically takes two attempts. The first t
ime I crank for approx. 5-6 secs. I stop and prime a little more and it sta
rts in the next 3-4 secs. I could probably prime more the first time and it
would start but I am nervous on flooding the engine.
>
> Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start? I do not. Whe
n my engine was being built, the engine builder asked if I wanted a =9C
shower of sparks=9D setup. I did not want the extra cost and hardware
installed. I reached out to ElectroAir and discussed the advantages/proble
ms with starts using the electronic ignition. The advantage was suppose to b
e better starts with a better spark. The disadvantage was that a good batte
ry is needed for the electronic ign to work proper during the start cycle. A
nd. The engine will not start with a dead battery as I have no impu
lse coupler on the Mag. I have to keep the Mag off during start up to avoid
kick back because there is no impulse coupler to retard timing on the Mag d
uring start up. Once engine fires I turn the Mag on.
>
> Have you made any progress on figuring out your problem?
>
> Regards,
>
> Bruce
>
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-ser
ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stonee
> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 6:58 PMt
> To: rocket-list@matronics.coms
> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Starting problem
>
> Hi Bruce,
> I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries.
> Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts. Wiring is g
ood as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance.
> How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?
> I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears as
though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I w
ill verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir. Do you know of anyone f
inding relief from the slick start?
> Thanks for your help,
> Jim Stone
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto pl
ugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on a
nother home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system
will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been
told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fac
t, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts b
ut it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short pe
riod of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenu
m over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my prob
lem.
>
> The only suggestions I have:
> 1. Maybe battery is starting to show it=99s age and you are sta
rting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
> 2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it s
hould be?
> 3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is c
ausing more power draw than required?
>
> Hope this helps. Good luck
>
> Bruce
>
> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-ser
ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Rocket-List: Starting problem
>
>
> I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
> I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and Elect
roAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviat
ion plugs.
> I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me t
o "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
> I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my st
arting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that t
he system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a l
ong time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltag
e down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts,
it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark o
ther than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold
up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try late
r.
> I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick
and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay f
or better start performance, but I'm considering it.
> Does anyone have a proven solution?
> TIA,
> Jim Stone
> Louisville Kentucky
> HR 11
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> t-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> //forums.matronics.com
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Starting problem |
Will check that out, thanks,
Jim
> On Aug 14, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Ed Gilroy <egilroy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Since you are "IO", have you looked into the new iStart product from the S
kytec guys?
>
> Saw it at KOSH and it seems to put some computing power behind mixture and
spark control at start of IO engines. If forget if it does sixes yet, but i
t is available for 4's for sure. Currently only available experimental, but t
hat shouldn't be an issue :-)
>
>
>
>> On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Jim,
>>
>>
>>
>> My apologies for the late reply.
>>
>>
>>
>> How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start? Here is t
he typical cold start for me. It typically takes two attempts. The first t
ime I crank for approx. 5-6 secs. I stop and prime a little more and it sta
rts in the next 3-4 secs. I could probably prime more the first time and it
would start but I am nervous on flooding the engine.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start? I do not. Wh
en my engine was being built, the engine builder asked if I wanted a =9C
shower of sparks=9D setup. I did not want the extra cost and hardware
installed. I reached out to ElectroAir and discussed the advantages/proble
ms with starts using the electronic ignition. The advantage was suppose to b
e better starts with a better spark. The disadvantage was that a good batte
ry is needed for the electronic ign to work proper during the start cycle. A
nd. The engine will not start with a dead battery as I have no impu
lse coupler on the Mag. I have to keep the Mag off during start up to avoid
kick back because there is no impulse coupler to retard timing on the Mag d
uring start up. Once engine fires I turn the Mag on.
>>
>>
>>
>> Have you made any progress on figuring out your problem?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-se
rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stonee
>> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 6:58 PMt
>> To: rocket-list@matronics.coms
>> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Starting problem
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Bruce,
>>
>> I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries.
>> Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts. Wiring is g
ood as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance.
>>
>> How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?
>>
>> I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears a
s though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I
will verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir. Do you know of anyone
finding relief from the slick start?
>>
>> Thanks for your help,
>>
>> Jim Stone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto p
lugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on a
nother home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system
will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been
told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fac
t, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts b
ut it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short pe
riod of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenu
m over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my prob
lem.
>>
>>
>>
>> The only suggestions I have:
>>
>> 1. Maybe battery is starting to show it=99s age and you are st
arting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
>>
>> 2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it s
hould be?
>>
>> 3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is
causing more power draw than required?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope this helps. Good luck
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-se
rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
>> To: rocket-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Rocket-List: Starting problem
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
>> I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and Elec
troAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all avia
tion plugs.
>> I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me
to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
>> I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my s
tarting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that
the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a
long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery volt
age down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volt
s, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spar
k other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries h
old up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try l
ater.
>> I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slic
k and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay f
or better start performance, but I'm considering it.
>> Does anyone have a proven solution?
>> TIA,
>> Jim Stone
>> Louisville Kentucky
>> HR 11
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> t-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> //forums.matronics.com
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
>
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>
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