---------------------------------------------------------- Rocket-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/15/15: 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:17 AM - Re: Starting problem (Jim Stone) 2. 10:18 AM - Re: Starting problem (Jim Stone) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:05 AM PST US From: Jim Stone Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Starting problem Hi Bruce, After another discussion with Mike at ElectroAir, he is convinced that the c rank sensor is not sensing correctly during engine start. We know this beca use the light in the EIS, should alternate green/red almost immediately afte r starter engagement indicating the sensor is reading the missing tooth in t he crank gear ring. Mike says that since it works fine after start, there m ay be a problem with the high voltage starter cable from the coil could be a ffecting the sensor's signal to the EIS. My current situation requires 8-10 seconds of cranking before I get any green /red indication on the EIS. He a sked if the two wires were bundled together, they were not. They do however c ross and touch at one spot just under the starter where they are zip tied to gether. I plan to have one last look around for a cause of bad sensor information go ing to the EIS and then I plan to remove the propeller and have a look at th e crank sensor and ring gear on the crank. Perhaps the ring gear or sensor t o ring gear gap has changed. I plan to go ahead and replace the crank sens or while I'm in there to rule out a possible bag wire or shielding. Thanks for your help and input, Jim stone > On Aug 14, 2015, at 11:31 PM, Bruce Topp wrote: > > Jim, > > My apologies for the late reply. > > How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start? Here is t he typical cold start for me. It typically takes two attempts. The first t ime I crank for approx. 5-6 secs. I stop and prime a little more and it sta rts in the next 3-4 secs. I could probably prime more the first time and it would start but I am nervous on flooding the engine. > > Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start? I do not. Whe n my engine was being built, the engine builder asked if I wanted a =9C shower of sparks=9D setup. I did not want the extra cost and hardware installed. I reached out to ElectroAir and discussed the advantages/proble ms with starts using the electronic ignition. The advantage was suppose to b e better starts with a better spark. The disadvantage was that a good batte ry is needed for the electronic ign to work proper during the start cycle. A nd. The engine will not start with a dead battery as I have no impu lse coupler on the Mag. I have to keep the Mag off during start up to avoid kick back because there is no impulse coupler to retard timing on the Mag d uring start up. Once engine fires I turn the Mag on. > > Have you made any progress on figuring out your problem? > > Regards, > > Bruce > > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stonee > Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 6:58 PMt > To: rocket-list@matronics.coms > Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Starting problem > > Hi Bruce, > I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries. > Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts. Wiring is g ood as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance. > How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start? > I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears as though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I w ill verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir. Do you know of anyone f inding relief from the slick start? > Thanks for your help, > Jim Stone > > > On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp wrote: > > Jim, > > I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto pl ugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on a nother home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fac t, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts b ut it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short pe riod of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenu m over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my prob lem. > > The only suggestions I have: > 1. Maybe battery is starting to show it=99s age and you are sta rting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle? > 2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it s hould be? > 3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is c ausing more power draw than required? > > Hope this helps. Good luck > > Bruce > > From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM > To: rocket-list@matronics.com > Subject: Rocket-List: Starting problem > > > I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot. > I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and Elect roAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviat ion plugs. > I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me t o "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine". > I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my st arting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that t he system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a l ong time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltag e down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark o ther than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try late r. > I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay f or better start performance, but I'm considering it. > Does anyone have a proven solution? > TIA, > Jim Stone > Louisville Kentucky > HR 11 > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > t-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > //forums.matronics.com > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:06 AM PST US From: Jim Stone Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Starting problem Will check that out, thanks, Jim > On Aug 14, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Ed Gilroy wrote: > > Since you are "IO", have you looked into the new iStart product from the S kytec guys? > > Saw it at KOSH and it seems to put some computing power behind mixture and spark control at start of IO engines. If forget if it does sixes yet, but i t is available for 4's for sure. Currently only available experimental, but t hat shouldn't be an issue :-) > > > >> On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Bruce Topp wrote: >> Jim, >> >> >> >> My apologies for the late reply. >> >> >> >> How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start? Here is t he typical cold start for me. It typically takes two attempts. The first t ime I crank for approx. 5-6 secs. I stop and prime a little more and it sta rts in the next 3-4 secs. I could probably prime more the first time and it would start but I am nervous on flooding the engine. >> >> >> >> Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start? I do not. Wh en my engine was being built, the engine builder asked if I wanted a =9C shower of sparks=9D setup. I did not want the extra cost and hardware installed. I reached out to ElectroAir and discussed the advantages/proble ms with starts using the electronic ignition. The advantage was suppose to b e better starts with a better spark. The disadvantage was that a good batte ry is needed for the electronic ign to work proper during the start cycle. A nd. The engine will not start with a dead battery as I have no impu lse coupler on the Mag. I have to keep the Mag off during start up to avoid kick back because there is no impulse coupler to retard timing on the Mag d uring start up. Once engine fires I turn the Mag on. >> >> >> >> Have you made any progress on figuring out your problem? >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-se rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stonee >> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 6:58 PMt >> To: rocket-list@matronics.coms >> Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Starting problem >> >> >> >> Hi Bruce, >> >> I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries. >> Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts. Wiring is g ood as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance. >> >> How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start? >> >> I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears a s though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I will verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir. Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start? >> >> Thanks for your help, >> >> Jim Stone >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp wrote: >> >> Jim, >> >> >> >> I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto p lugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on a nother home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fac t, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts b ut it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short pe riod of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenu m over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my prob lem. >> >> >> >> The only suggestions I have: >> >> 1. Maybe battery is starting to show it=99s age and you are st arting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle? >> >> 2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it s hould be? >> >> 3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is causing more power draw than required? >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. Good luck >> >> >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-se rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone >> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM >> To: rocket-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Rocket-List: Starting problem >> >> >> >> >> I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot. >> I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and Elec troAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all avia tion plugs. >> I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine". >> I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my s tarting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery volt age down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volt s, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spar k other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries h old up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try l ater. >> I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slic k and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay f or better start performance, but I'm considering it. >> Does anyone have a proven solution? >> TIA, >> Jim Stone >> Louisville Kentucky >> HR 11 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List >> http://forums.matronics.com >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> t-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> //forums.matronics.com >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List >> http://forums.matronics.com >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rocket-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Rocket-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rocket-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rocket-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.