Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:03 AM - Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
2. 07:13 AM - Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
3. 08:34 AM - Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
4. 08:38 AM - Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Gilles Thesee)
5. 09:09 AM - Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
6. 10:51 AM - Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run ()
7. 11:22 AM - Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
8. 02:31 PM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Gilles Thesee)
9. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Hugh McKay III)
10. 04:00 PM - Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
11. 04:28 PM - Re: Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Hugh McKay III)
12. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Dave Austin)
13. 05:11 PM - ROUGH RUNNING 912 AT IDLE (dcsfoto)
14. 08:24 PM - Re: ROUGH RUNNING 912 AT IDLE (MElrod3732@aol.com)
15. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (B Johnson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
Giles,
I have reviewed, again, my Operator's Manual, Installation Manual, Line
Maintenance Manual, Heavy Maintenance Manual and all Service
Documentation available at Rotax-owner.com since July 1998 (date of my
Operator's Manual).
The only place I found what could be interpreted as a "normal cylinder
head temperature range" is in the Heavy Maintenance Manual. See
attached image. All the other documentation I've looked at contain only
a Maximum CHT specification. You will notice that it says the
"operational temperature" is 90-120C (194-250F) with a MUST NOT EXCEED
CHT of 150C (300F). It also says what to do if the maximum is exceeded.
In Hugh's case, he did not exceed the maximum. I don't think Hugh
should be at all concerned about having run his engine at 130C CHT.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wanting the facts to be known.
This is the best information I've been able to find on the subject. If
you know of another more up-to-date source from Rotax, please let us
all know.
Thom
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Giles,
I have reviewed, again, my Operator's Manual, Installation Manual, Line Maintenance
Manual, Heavy Maintenance Manual and all Service
Documentation available at Rotax-owner.com since July 1998 (date of my Operator's
Manual). The only place I found what could be interpreted as a "normal cylinder
head temperature range" is in the Heavy Maintenance Manual. See attached
image. All the other documentation I've looked at contain only a Maximum CHT specification.
You will notice that it says the "operational temperature" is 90-120C
(194-250F) with a MUST NOT EXCEED CHT of 150C (300F). It also says what
to do if the maximum is exceeded. In Hugh's case, he did not exceed the maximum.
I don't think Hugh should be at all concerned about having run his engine at
130C CHT.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wanting the facts to be known. This is
the best information I've been able to find on the subject. If you know of another
more up-to-date source from Rotax, please let us all know.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59360#59360
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/cht_reference_138.jpg
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Giles,
I just found the rev_3 update (July 2004) to the 912 Operator's Manual and it does
indeed include the normal CHT range of 75-110C (167-230F). The MUST NOT EXCEED
temperature is still 150C (300F). This update and two earlier ones were found
at
http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/
Curiously, the North American importer's website
http://www.kodiakbs.com/
does not have these updates. Their latest version of the Operator's Manual on their
website is dated July 1998. Perhaps they also have these updates but I could
not find them on their site. I will be using the the first link I listed above,
from now on.
Thanks for the motivation to keep looking.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59375#59375
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Thom,
>
> I have reviewed, again, my Operator's Manual, Installation Manual,
> Line Maintenance Manual, Heavy Maintenance Manual and all Service
> Documentation available at *Rotax-owner.com* since July 1998 (date of
> my Operator's Manual).
> The only place I found what could be interpreted as a "normal cylinder
> head temperature range" is in the *Heavy Maintenance Manual.* See
> attached image. All the other documentation I've looked at contain
> only a Maximum CHT specification.
Operator's manual Rev 3, July 2004 page 10-1, states the limitations
and best operating ranges.
An updated version of the various manuals can be downoaded from the
Kodiak research website : http://www.kodiakbs.com/tiintro.htm
The Rotax-owner's website provides the list of effective documentation
for the 912 :
http://www.rotax-owner.com/SI_TB_INFO/returndoc.asp?PATH=http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/serviceb/sb-all-000-r4.pdf&DOCID=SB-912-000&S_TYPE=SS
> You will notice that it says the "operational temperature" is 90-120C
> (194-250F) with a MUST NOT EXCEED CHT of 150C (300F). It also says
> what to do if the maximum is exceeded. In Hugh's case, he did not
> exceed the maximum. I don't think Hugh should be at all concerned
> about having run his engine at 130C CHT.
Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose with start with two brand new
identical engines. One is run at 149C from the start. The other is
thoroughly run-in and used inside normal range by a caring owner, but
one day, experiences a short temperature excursion up to say, 151 C.
Would you still say the #1 was soundly used, and the #2 engine is to be
grounded ? What happens between 149.9C and 150C ?
Limits are just that, limits. I would not be too confindent with an
engine that has been consistently run to its red line, just because "the
pointer did not pass the red mark".
Engines are best treated with care, and not thermally abused.
But of course, it's not my engine.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Giles,
You are correct, of course, in that the difference between 149 and 151 degrees
is not meaningful and that operating in the normal range is better than running
near the redline. Howecer, I can tell you that a one time excursion above the
temperature limit, though not good for the engine, is not necessarily cause
for alarm. If this happens (it did not happen to Hugh's engine), it is reason
to investigate the cause and remedy it before operating the engine again. Also,
it is just as important to make sure the engine is cooled down properly before
shutting it off.
I am a retired mechanical engineer and spent most of my career in machine design.
It is normal in this business to over-design machines so that if the operator
does inadvertently operate out of recommended ranges, the machine is not likely
to self-destruct. Another way of saying this is that a reputable manufacturer
usually is conservative in documenting operating limits. This does not mean
that the limits should not be observed but that a single, slight excursion
over the temperature limits is not necessarily reason for concern, if the cause
is discovered and remedied.
In my experience, RPM limits are usually more important in the case of a single
excursion past redline because forces on the reciprocating parts of the engine
are proportional to the 4th power of the rotational speed. That is why our prop
pitch is set such that in straight and level flight, at full throttle, the
maximum rpm is only 5,500 rpm. I don't want to be anywhere near the 5,800 rpm
redline, even though it is "okay" at that speed for up to 5 minutes.
I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value to anyone
who cares, or at least I hope so.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59381#59381
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Thom
CHT max with EG and .9 bar 240F
CHT max with EG and 1.2 bar 250F
CHT max with Evans and .9 bar 300F 912 and 275F 912S and 914
See:
http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm
I remember seeing in documentation from Rotax these changes, it was
convoluted.
Ron Parigoris
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
Ron,
Thanks!
That link is a great resource. I did not realize they lowered the MAX CHT to 250F
w/ 1.2 bar pressure cap from 300F. Big difference.
--------
Thom in Buffalo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59393#59393
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Thom,
> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value to anyone
who cares, or at least I hope so.
>
Agreed.
Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
Nice discussion.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
Thom/Gilles:
I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know why
this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of free
opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Thom,
> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>
Agreed.
Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
Nice discussion.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 10
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| Subject: | RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
Hugh,
I have not followed closely. What steps did you
take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
air then overflow after shutdown would be
expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
Regards, Paul
================
At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh
>McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>
>Thom/Gilles:
>
>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know why
>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of free
>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>
>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>
>Hugh
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>Thesee
>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>
>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Thom,
>
> > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
> >
>
>Agreed.
>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>Nice discussion.
>
>Best regards,
>Gilles
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
Paul:
I did not bleed air out of the system. I did not know I had too! There is no
information in the Rotax operators manual addressing cooling system "air
pockets"! This is all news to me! Where is this "air pocket" supposed to
form, and where and how do you remove it with a "hand held" vacuum pump?
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of PWilson
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
Hugh,
I have not followed closely. What steps did you
take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
air then overflow after shutdown would be
expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
Regards, Paul
================
At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh
>McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>
>Thom/Gilles:
>
>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
why
>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
free
>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>
>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>
>Hugh
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>Thesee
>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>
>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Thom,
>
> > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
> >
>
>Agreed.
>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>Nice discussion.
>
>Best regards,
>Gilles
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
Been watching this thread with interest as I had a boil during a flight back
in the a/c early days.
The key to the situation is that the coolant has boiled. When it does, the
vapour no longer carries the heat away and the local hotspot rapidly
increases in temperature well beyond limits for the aluminium. That causes
distortion of the overheated area.
I was using a 80% antifreeze mix at the time as instructed back then, and
the heat transfer properties at that mixture is lower than at the usual 50%
mix. Changed to 50% and the boiling never occurred again.
I'd do a careful compression test and coolant leak test at pressure. Make
sure coolant is not getting into the crankcase and into the oil. If no
problems, run it again. Make sure the cap is giving you the full pressure.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 13
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| Subject: | ROUGH RUNNING 912 AT IDLE |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "dcsfoto" <david@kelm.com>
My 912 just started a spell of running rough at 2000 to 2400 RPM
I also noticed some fuel overflow from the right carb.
any ideas ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59483#59483
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: ROUGH RUNNING 912 AT IDLE |
Sounds like your carbs might be out of synch. I bought the carb synch kit
from Lockwood, used it on my 912 ULS and greatly improved the rough idling. It
also improved the starting too.
Message 15
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| Subject: | RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run |
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
Beware of using the evans coolant in a system (aircraft) not specifically
designed for it. I ended up in a baaaad situation with vapor lock (with
100LL!!! And insulated fuel lines) after switching to evans. Evans, while
not boiling until well over 300F, also does not cool as well. You WILL see
at least 30F increase in normal operating temps with the evans coolant.
-Bruce
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>
> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>
> Hugh,
> I have not followed closely. What steps did you
> take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
> Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
> is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
> air then overflow after shutdown would be
> expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
> a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>
> BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
> put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
> boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
> Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
> buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
> the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
> Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
> various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
> Regards, Paul
>
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