Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:56 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (John Esch)
2. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
3. 07:06 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 447 (NYTerminat@aol.com)
4. 09:19 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 447 (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
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--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
Dave
I replaced the pulse line with a new and one bought from CPS about 11 hours ago.
It appears to be holding up.
I pulled the exhaust manifold off last night didn't find any carbon on the piston
rings only the normal buildup on top of the pistons and exhaust. Nothing excessive.
The piston skirts are nice and shiney.
>From what I can see there is no buildup of carbon on the other ports. I will see
if I can borrow a bore scope to get a better look at the heads.
My new pump, air and fuel filter should be here in a day or two. I have a feeling
it might be the fuel delivery system that might have been the cause. The only
thing is why it affected only one cylinder? Maybe I caught it pretty quickly
and EGT never caught up on the #1 cylinder. Who knows, things happened pretty
fast and I wasn't interested in watching the instruments at the time, just
to get myself back on the ground before things really went south.
John
-----Original Message-----
>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Sep 7, 2006 11:57 PM
>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List <rotaxengines-list-digest@matronics.com>
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 09/07/06
>
>*
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
>HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-07.html
>
>Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-07.txt
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 09/07/06: 3
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Today's Message Index:
>----------------------
>
> 1. 07:23 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 (John Esch)
> 2. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 (Dave)
> 3. 07:58 PM - gaskets (John Esch)
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 07:23:20 AM PST US
>From: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>
>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>
>
>Dave
>I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch attitude
and
>notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage indication. I leveled off
>and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at my EGTs and notice that #2 cylinder
>was going through 1000 degrees, #1 cylinder was normal, with both CHTs about
>10-20 degrees above normal.
>I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with no problems.
>Now I know what people are going to say with the next statement but I had
>my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied back to the runway
>to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the issue again. Applied full
>throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with the brakes and did not
>want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the same issue, a RPM drop with full
>throttle was reached. I didn't have time to notice the other guages and, yes,
>I did get airborne. I just closed the throttle, landed, and taxied home to
>put the Hurricane to bed.
>I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I am going
>to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th owner on this
>aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and I think it has all
>the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has been flown on a regular
>basis and hangared all the time.
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List <rotaxengines-list-digest@matronics.com>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>
>>*
>>
>> ================================================
>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ================================================
>>
>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>
>>HTML Version:
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>
>>Text Version:
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>
>>
>> ==============================================
>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ==============================================
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>Today's Message Index:
>>----------------------
>>
>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Hugh
>McKay III)
>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Dave
>Austin)
>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Hugh
>McKay III)
>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Jack
>Kuehn)
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 04:14:50 AM PST US
>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>
>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>airplane.
>>
>>Thom in Buffalo
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 05:45:04 AM PST US
>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>>Run
>>
>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>
>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine tech.)
>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well as
>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information concerning
>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>
>>(Coolant Venting)
>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get rid
>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow bottle.
>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it has
>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle to
>>the halfway point.
>>
>>(Oil Venting)
>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine owners
>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit Builders
>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its up
>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from my
>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting" on
>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It is
>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
>>
>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way to
>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls, because
>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>friends".
>>
>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all experience
>>in FLYING.
>>
>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>Allegro 2000
>>N661WW
>>912UL
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net]
>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>>Run
>>
>>Thom/Gilles:
>>
>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know why
>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on, the
>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of free
>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine with
>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting on
>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>
>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>
>>Hugh
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>Thesee
>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>>Run
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>
>>Hi Thom,
>>
>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>
>>
>>Agreed.
>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>Nice discussion.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Gilles
>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 06:43:01 AM PST US
>>From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>
>>Thom,
>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>Regards, Paul
>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>pump off. Paul
>>===================
>>
>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>
>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 07:13:23 AM PST US
>>From: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>
>>All
>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my 447,
>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines from
the
>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper setup
>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>John
>>Independence, OR
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 07:18:37 AM PST US
>>From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>
>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>
>>I would try that.
>>
>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>
>>> All
>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is
>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> John
>>> Independence, OR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 08:20:31 AM PST US
>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>
>>Re oil venting..
>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 08:54:14 AM PST US
>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
Run
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>
>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states that
>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell you
>>for sure.
>>
>>Hugh McKay
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>Austin
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>>Run
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>
>>Re oil venting..
>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 09:14:56 AM PST US
>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test
>Run
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>
>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>prime the system.
>>
>>Jack
>>
>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 08:11:31 AM PST US
>From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>
>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
>They can collapse and you must use a heavy wall line made for impulse line.
>Regular fuel line is not ok.
>
>
>Dave
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:22 AM
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>
>
>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>> I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch
>> attitude and notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage
>> indication. I leveled off and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at my
>> EGTs and notice that #2 cylinder was going through 1000 degrees, #1
>> cylinder was normal, with both CHTs about 10-20 degrees above normal.
>> I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with no
>> problems. Now I know what people are going to say with the next statement
>> but I had my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied back
>> to the runway to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the issue
>> again. Applied full throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with
>> the brakes and did not want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the same
>> issue, a RPM drop with full throttle was reached. I didn't have time to
>> notice the other guages and, yes, I did get airborne. I just closed the
>> throttle, landed, and taxied home to put the Hurricane to bed.
>> I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I am
>> going to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th
>> owner on this aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and I
>> think it has all the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has
>> been flown on a regular basis and hangared all the time.
>> John
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List <rotaxengines-list-digest@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>>
>>>*
>>>
>>> ================================================
>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ================================================
>>>
>>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>>the
>>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>>editor
>>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>>
>>>HTML Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>>
>>>Text Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> ==============================================
>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ==============================================
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>>> ---
>>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>Today's Message Index:
>>>----------------------
>>>
>>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Hugh McKay III)
>>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Dave Austin)
>>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Hugh McKay III)
>>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Jack Kuehn)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 1
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 04:14:50 AM PST US
>>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle
>>><jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>>airplane.
>>>
>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 2
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 05:45:04 AM PST US
>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III"
>>><hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>>
>>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
>>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine tech.)
>>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well
>>>as
>>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information
>>>concerning
>>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>>
>>>(Coolant Venting)
>>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get
>>>rid
>>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
>>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow
>>>bottle.
>>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it
>>>has
>>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle
>>>to
>>>the halfway point.
>>>
>>>(Oil Venting)
>>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine
>>>owners
>>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit Builders
>>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
>>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
>>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
>>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
>>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its
>>>up
>>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from
>>>my
>>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting"
>>>on
>>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It
>>>is
>>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
>>>
>>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way
>>>to
>>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls,
>>>because
>>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>>friends".
>>>
>>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all
>>>experience
>>>in FLYING.
>>>
>>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>>Allegro 2000
>>>N661WW
>>>912UL
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net]
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>Thom/Gilles:
>>>
>>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>>why
>>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>>the
>>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air to
>>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>>free
>>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>>with
>>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>>on
>>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What free
>>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>>
>>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood Green
>>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>>
>>>Hugh
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>>Thesee
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
>>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>>
>>>Hi Thom,
>>>
>>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of value
>>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Agreed.
>>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>>Nice discussion.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Gilles
>>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 3
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 06:43:01 AM PST US
>>>From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>
>>>Thom,
>>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>>Regards, Paul
>>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>>pump off. Paul
>>>===================
>>>
>>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle
>>>><jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>>
>>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>>
>>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 4
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 07:13:23 AM PST US
>>>From: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>
>>>All
>>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
>>>447,
>>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines
>>>from the
>>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper
>>>setup
>>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>John
>>>Independence, OR
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 5
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 07:18:37 AM PST US
>>>From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>
>>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>>
>>>I would try that.
>>>
>>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>>
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch
>>>> <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>>
>>>> All
>>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>>> my
>>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is,
>>>> is
>>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb
>>>> setup?
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>> Independence, OR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 6
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 08:20:31 AM PST US
>>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 7
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 08:54:14 AM PST US
>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III"
>>><hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states
>>>that
>>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
>>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell
>>>you
>>>for sure.
>>>
>>>Hugh McKay
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>>Austin
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 8
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 09:14:56 AM PST US
>>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jack Kuehn
>>><jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>
>>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>>prime the system.
>>>
>>>Jack
>>>
>>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>>
>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>>oil
>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 07:58:52 PM PST US
>From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: gaskets
>
>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>
>All
>Has anyone have experience of purchasing gaskets sets from Ebay?
>Check the following item on Ebay 220023208778
>
>Great deal but is it worth the chance?
>
>I am going to go ahead to decarbon my 447 then I really know what the
>condition of this used engine.
>
>John
>Independence, OR
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "RotaxEngines-List Digest Server" <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:57 PM
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/05/06
>
>
>> *
>>
>> ================================================
>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ================================================
>>
>> Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>> the
>> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
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>> editor
>> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>
>> HTML Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.html
>>
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>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.txt
>>
>>
>> ==============================================
>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ==============================================
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Tue 09/05/06: 4
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> Today's Message Index:
>> ----------------------
>>
>> 1. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 2. 07:27 AM - Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 3. 07:27 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>> 4. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (B Johnson)
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 1
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 07:02:53 AM PST US
>> From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>
>> Normal procedure when a system has no high point
>> bleed or when one suspects an air pocket, which
>> is 100% of the time for me. Any mechanic would do
>> this for brakes, power steering and coolant.
>> Based on experience some engine coolant systems
>> do not need it. In the case of the Rotax I would
>> do it just to be sure. Any engine has air pockets
>> after the first fill and some will self purge.
>> Harbor Freight has a cheap hand operated vac
>> pump. Get a rubber stopper from the hardware
>> store drill a hole and put it in the filler and
>> start sucking. Do this until the vacuum holds
>> steady. You might have to get another pressure
>> cap and drill a hole in it to get a proper seal.
>> Study the coolant pipes to see what you have done
>> that may have caused a place where the bubble
>> could form. But, who cares just bleed it to be sure.
>>
>> At 05:27 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh
>>>McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>>Paul:
>>>
>>>I did not bleed air out of the system. I did not know I had too! There is
>>>no
>>>information in the Rotax operators manual addressing cooling system "air
>>>pockets"! This is all news to me! Where is this "air pocket" supposed to
>>>form, and where and how do you remove it with a "hand held" vacuum pump?
>>>
>>>Hugh
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of PWilson
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>>To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>
>>>Hugh,
>>>I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>>take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>>Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>>is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>>air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>>expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>>a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>>
>>>BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>>put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>>boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>>Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>>buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>>the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>>Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>>various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>>Regards, Paul
>>>==============
>>>At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>> >--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh
>>> >McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>> >
>>> >Thom/Gilles:
>>> >
>>> >I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>> >immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when
>>> >I
>>> >saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut
>>> >down,
>>> >and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>>why
>>> >this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>> >properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of
>>> >existing
>>> >circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>> >tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>> >radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>> >the
>>> >91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air
>>> >to
>>> >enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>>free
>>> >opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>> >with
>>> >the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>> >on
>>> >the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>> >would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>>> >free
>>> >opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>> >
>>> >Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>>> >Green
>>> >tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>> >opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again,
>>> >thank
>>> >you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>> >
>>> >Hugh
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>> >From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>> >[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>> >Thesee
>>> >Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>> >To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>> >Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>> >Test
>>> >Run
>>> >
>>> >--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
>>> ><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>> >
>>> >Hi Thom,
>>> >
>>> > > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>>> > > value
>>> >to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >Agreed.
>>> >Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>> >though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>> >Nice discussion.
>>> >
>>> >Best regards,
>>> >Gilles
>>> >http://contrails.free.fr
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 2
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 07:27:46 AM PST US
>> From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>
>> Hugh,
>> I cannot remember how many auto shop manuals I have used that give
>> instructions on bleeding the air out of a coolant system when
>> starting with a dry engine. Some engines even had a bleed valve some
>> has a high point fitting. Lately on newer cars the instructions are
>> missing . Which probably means they are self bleeding due to better
>> design. That may be the case for the 912, but better to be safe than
>> sorry.
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 3
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 07:27:46 AM PST US
>> From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>
>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>> flying.
>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
>> Paul
>> ==============
>>
>> At 10:32 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "B Johnson"
>>><bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>>>
>>>Beware of using the evans coolant in a system (aircraft) not specifically
>>>designed for it. I ended up in a baaaad situation with vapor lock (with
>>>100LL!!! And insulated fuel lines) after switching to evans. Evans, while
>>>not boiling until well over 300F, also does not cool as well. You WILL
>>>see
>>>at least 30F increase in normal operating temps with the evans coolant.
>>>
>>>-Bruce
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>>> > rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>>> > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>> > To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>> > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> >
>>> > --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>> >
>>> > Hugh,
>>> > I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>> > take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>> > Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>> > is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>> > air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>> > expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>> > a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>> >
>>> > BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>> > put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>> > boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>> > Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>> > buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>> > the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>> > Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>> > various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>> > Regards, Paul
>>> >
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 4
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 08:12:26 AM PST US
>> From: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>
>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "B Johnson"
>> <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>>> rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:07 AM
>>> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>
>>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>>> flying.
>>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
>>> Paul
>> Yes..... This was the expected behavior though, based on listening to the
>> ultraflight radio spot on the subject.... Again, the heads were still
>> well
>> within the 300f limit (about 265-270 on climbout on a hot day) and the oil
>> stayed under 250 (JUST under 250F). Then trying to leave Prescott on a
>> hot
>> afternoon, intermittent vapor lock reared it's ugly head... as we tried to
>> climb out, we got some slight missing, then more, then landed to check it
>> out... tried to take off again (runup to ~4200 was ok) but at about 4300
>> on
>> rollout-bad stumbling, a change on the ramp back to 60/40 auto coolant,
>> and
>> no more problems. (This was a 912s)
>>
>> -Bruce
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Good stuff.
I had plane that I was test flying last year for a guy with a 503 single
carb. I forget the egts at the time but it lost power on climbout and would
only get about 5000 rpm max.
I not sure what happened but I landed and tried several crop hops after that
and it would get full power and just get airbourne and then lose power .
This happened to me a few more times. I was convinced that is was a fuel
starvation problem.
Don't ask me why but I turned off the fuel at the tank valve and it was a
ball type i think , you know about 1/4 turn to make it open or closed. I
ran it till it stopped taxing.
Then I opened fuel again and primed it - hit the key -- and it was running
.
Tried again to take off and it was un event ful so i taxi back to shop and
tied down to post by tailwheel. I ran it wide open for three minutes
without any troubles.
I then untied it and took off........I flew it a few more hours over the
next few days totally un-eventful. The owner has over 50 hours since then
and no troubles.
I can only guess that ther wasa restriction in the valve that came lose when
i turned it or a flake of something in the tank that is not there now . I
advised the owner that the tank should be thoroughly flushed out but as
ususal it has not been done yet. He says well it works ok now so why mess
with it . I hope I won't report on this plane again that it went down to
fuel starvation.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:55 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 447
> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>
>>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
>
> Dave
> I replaced the pulse line with a new and one bought from CPS about 11
> hours ago. It appears to be holding up.
> I pulled the exhaust manifold off last night didn't find any carbon on the
> piston rings only the normal buildup on top of the pistons and exhaust.
> Nothing excessive. The piston skirts are nice and shiney.
>>From what I can see there is no buildup of carbon on the other ports. I
>>will see if I can borrow a bore scope to get a better look at the heads.
> My new pump, air and fuel filter should be here in a day or two. I have a
> feeling it might be the fuel delivery system that might have been the
> cause. The only thing is why it affected only one cylinder? Maybe I caught
> it pretty quickly and EGT never caught up on the #1 cylinder. Who knows,
> things happened pretty fast and I wasn't interested in watching the
> instruments at the time, just to get myself back on the ground before
> things really went south.
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Sep 7, 2006 11:57 PM
>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List <rotaxengines-list-digest@matronics.com>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 09/07/06
>>
>>*
>>
>> =================================================
>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>> =================================================
>>
>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>the
>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>editor
>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>
>>HTML Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-07.html
>>
>>Text Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-07.txt
>>
>>
>> ===============================================
>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ===============================================
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Thu 09/07/06: 3
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>Today's Message Index:
>>----------------------
>>
>> 1. 07:23 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>> 2. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447 (Dave)
>> 3. 07:58 PM - gaskets (John Esch)
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 1
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 07:23:20 AM PST US
>>From: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>
>>
>>Dave
>>I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch
>>attitude and
>>notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage indication. I leveled
>>off
>>and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at my EGTs and notice that #2
>>cylinder
>>was going through 1000 degrees, #1 cylinder was normal, with both CHTs
>>about
>>10-20 degrees above normal.
>>I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with no
>>problems.
>>Now I know what people are going to say with the next statement but I had
>>my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied back to the
>>runway
>>to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the issue again.
>>Applied full
>>throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with the brakes and did not
>>want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the same issue, a RPM drop with
>>full
>>throttle was reached. I didn't have time to notice the other guages and,
>>yes,
>>I did get airborne. I just closed the throttle, landed, and taxied home to
>>put the Hurricane to bed.
>>I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I am
>>going
>>to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th owner on
>>this
>>aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and I think it has
>>all
>>the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has been flown on a
>>regular
>>basis and hangared all the time.
>>John
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>>><rotaxengines-list-digest@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>>
>>>*
>>>
>>> ================================================
>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ================================================
>>>
>>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>>the
>>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>>editor
>>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>>
>>>HTML Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>>
>>>Text Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> ==============================================
>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ==============================================
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>>> ---
>>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>Today's Message Index:
>>>----------------------
>>>
>>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Hugh
>>McKay III)
>>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Dave
>>Austin)
>>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Hugh
>>McKay III)
>>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>> (Jack
>>Kuehn)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 1
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 04:14:50 AM PST US
>>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle
>>><jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>>airplane.
>>>
>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 2
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 05:45:04 AM PST US
>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III"
>>><hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>>
>>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject and
>>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine
>>>tech.)
>>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well
>>>as
>>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information
>>>concerning
>>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>>
>>>(Coolant Venting)
>>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get
>>>rid
>>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank to
>>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow
>>>bottle.
>>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it
>>>has
>>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow bottle
>>>to
>>>the halfway point.
>>>
>>>(Oil Venting)
>>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine
>>>owners
>>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit
>>>Builders
>>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend you
>>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead of
>>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters that
>>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you have
>>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its
>>>up
>>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from
>>>my
>>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting"
>>>on
>>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It
>>>is
>>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes sense.
>>>
>>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way
>>>to
>>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls,
>>>because
>>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>>friends".
>>>
>>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all
>>>experience
>>>in FLYING.
>>>
>>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>>Allegro 2000
>>>N661WW
>>>912UL
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net]
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>Thom/Gilles:
>>>
>>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when I
>>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut down,
>>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>>why
>>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of existing
>>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>>the
>>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air
>>>to
>>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>>free
>>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>>with
>>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>>on
>>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>>>free
>>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>>
>>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>>>Green
>>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again, thank
>>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>>
>>>Hugh
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>>Thesee
>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
>>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>>
>>>Hi Thom,
>>>
>>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>>>> value
>>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Agreed.
>>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>>Nice discussion.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Gilles
>>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 3
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 06:43:01 AM PST US
>>>From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>
>>>Thom,
>>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>>Regards, Paul
>>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>>pump off. Paul
>>>===================
>>>
>>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle
>>>><jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>>
>>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>>
>>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 4
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 07:13:23 AM PST US
>>>From: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>
>>>All
>>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with my
>>>447,
>>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines
>>>from the
>>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a proper
>>>setup
>>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>John
>>>Independence, OR
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 5
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 07:18:37 AM PST US
>>>From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>
>>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>>
>>>I would try that.
>>>
>>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>>
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch
>>>> <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>>
>>>> All
>>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>>> my
>>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is,
>>>> is
>>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb
>>>> setup?
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>> Independence, OR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 6
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 08:20:31 AM PST US
>>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 7
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 08:54:14 AM PST US
>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III"
>>><hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states
>>>that
>>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that after
>>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell
>>>you
>>>for sure.
>>>
>>>Hugh McKay
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>>Austin
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>>Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>
>>>Re oil venting..
>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>oil
>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as it
>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________ Message 8
>>>_____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Time: 09:14:56 AM PST US
>>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>Test
>>Run
>>>
>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jack Kuehn
>>><jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>
>>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>>prime the system.
>>>
>>>Jack
>>>
>>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>>
>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>>oil
>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as
>>>>it
>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 2
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 08:11:31 AM PST US
>>From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>
>>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
>>They can collapse and you must use a heavy wall line made for impulse
>>line.
>>Regular fuel line is not ok.
>>
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:22 AM
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: RotaxEngines-Rotax 447
>>
>>
>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch
>>> <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> I was took off in my Hurricane and was just getting into climb pitch
>>> attitude and notice an audio RPM drop in the 447, with no guage
>>> indication. I leveled off and reduce throttle to cruise RPM, looked at
>>> my
>>> EGTs and notice that #2 cylinder was going through 1000 degrees, #1
>>> cylinder was normal, with both CHTs about 10-20 degrees above normal.
>>> I immediately turned downwind to reentered the pattern and landed with
>>> no
>>> problems. Now I know what people are going to say with the next
>>> statement
>>> but I had my reasons and I was not going to attempt to fly. I taxied
>>> back
>>> to the runway to do a high speed run to see if I could duplicate the
>>> issue
>>> again. Applied full throttle, since I can not get to full throttle with
>>> the brakes and did not want to tie down the aircraft, and noticed the
>>> same
>>> issue, a RPM drop with full throttle was reached. I didn't have time to
>>> notice the other guages and, yes, I did get airborne. I just closed the
>>> throttle, landed, and taxied home to put the Hurricane to bed.
>>> I have a new pump, fuel and air filter, and fuel lines on the way, so I
>>> am
>>> going to replace them to see if that will fix the issue. I am the 4th
>>> owner on this aircraft, it is a 1996 with original hours of 265 TTAE and
>>> I
>>> think it has all the original fuel supply system in it. The aircraft has
>>> been flown on a regular basis and hangared all the time.
>>> John
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>>>>Sent: Sep 6, 2006 11:57 PM
>>>>To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List
>>>><rotaxengines-list-digest@matronics.com>
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/06/06
>>>>
>>>>*
>>>>
>>>> ================================================
>>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>>>> ================================================
>>>>
>>>>Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>>>the
>>>>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
>>>>formatted
>>>>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>>>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>>>of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>>>editor
>>>>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>>>
>>>>HTML Version:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.html
>>>>
>>>>Text Version:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-06.txt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==============================================
>>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>>>> ==============================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>>>> ---
>>>> Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 8
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Today's Message Index:
>>>>----------------------
>>>>
>>>> 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (Thom Riddle)
>>>> 2. 05:45 AM - FW: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> (Hugh McKay III)
>>>> 3. 06:43 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>>> 4. 07:13 AM - Rotax 447 (John Esch)
>>>> 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Rotax 447 (Dave)
>>>> 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> (Dave Austin)
>>>> 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> (Hugh McKay III)
>>>> 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> (Jack Kuehn)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 1
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Time: 04:14:50 AM PST US
>>>>From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle
>>>><jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>>
>>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The solution
>>>>for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to make sure
>>>>the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above ambient
>>>>pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below ambient
>>>>pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted mechanical
>>>>fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which draws by
>>>>suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower than the
>>>>engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either back-ups or
>>>>required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your airplane has an
>>>>electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes virtually the whole
>>>>fuel system (except the tank), try turning on this boost pump to
>>>>eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in pressure was always enough to
>>>>solve the vapor lock problem on our old dragsters and may work for your
>>>>airplane.
>>>>
>>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 2
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Time: 05:45:04 AM PST US
>>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>>Subject: FW: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III"
>>>><hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net]
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:02 PM
>>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test
>>>>Run
>>>>
>>>>Thom/Gilles, and all:
>>>>
>>>>I called Lockwood Aviation this morning concerning this whole subject
>>>>and
>>>>regarding my specific engine. After giving them (Dean Vogel, Engine
>>>>tech.)
>>>>all the specific information concerning the initial test run, he as well
>>>>as
>>>>his associate Kerry were convinced that I had done no harm to the engine
>>>>with the oil and CHT temperatures I saw for that short of time. In the
>>>>course of our conversation he did give me additional information
>>>>concerning
>>>>Coolant venting, and oil venting as follows:
>>>>
>>>>(Coolant Venting)
>>>>Dean stated that on initial start with a new engine, or after changing
>>>>coolant, air pockets could occur unless one follows certain steps to get
>>>>rid
>>>>of them if they are present. First, fill the engine and expansion tank
>>>>to
>>>>the maximum, and then place about 1 inch of coolant in the overflow
>>>>bottle.
>>>>Run the engine for a minute to circulate the coolant, shut down, and let
>>>>cool as necessary. Check the coolant level in the expansion tank. If it
>>>>has
>>>>lowered, air was in the system. Refill to the maximum level and run the
>>>>engine again for one minute, and repeat the procedure until the coolant
>>>>level in the expansion tank stays the same. Then fill the overflow
>>>>bottle
>>>>to
>>>>the halfway point.
>>>>
>>>>(Oil Venting)
>>>>In addition to the venting procedure given in the Rotax Operators Manual
>>>>(which everyone gets with their new engine) there is a Rotax Service
>>>>Instruction SI-04-1997 (rev 3) dated September 2002 (which new engine
>>>>owners
>>>>know nothing about) on the Rotax website. I might say at this point for
>>>>those of you who may be like myself (new to this engine), and Kit
>>>>Builders
>>>>(Allegro or otherwise), after talking with Lockwood I would recommend
>>>>you
>>>>take their 912UL engine course if at all possible. I wish I knew ahead
>>>>of
>>>>time how helpful it would be. They cover this and many other matters
>>>>that
>>>>Rotax, your Distributors, and Dealers don't give you. As some of you
>>>>have
>>>>told me "we who build Kits simply are buying a "pig in a poke" (i.e. its
>>>>up
>>>>to us to figure it all out, including the engine with a little help from
>>>>my
>>>>friends), no further advice given. You are on your own! Enough "venting"
>>>>on
>>>>my part (no pun intended). Back to the oil venting SI. Just read it. It
>>>>is
>>>>markedly different and requires more effort and work, but it makes
>>>>sense.
>>>>
>>>>Having gone through this frustrating exercise, I wish there was some way
>>>>to
>>>>for-warn or counsel individuals such as myself about these pitfalls,
>>>>because
>>>>they could lead to very expensive repairs or even worse (God forbid),
>>>>fatalities. I am fortunate, I found out "with a little help from my
>>>>friends".
>>>>
>>>>Thanks again everybody, God Speed, and enjoy that freedom we all
>>>>experience
>>>>in FLYING.
>>>>
>>>>Hugh McKay in North Carolina
>>>>Allegro 2000
>>>>N661WW
>>>>912UL
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Hugh McKay III [mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net]
>>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:17 PM
>>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test
>>>>Run
>>>>
>>>>Thom/Gilles:
>>>>
>>>>I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped me
>>>>immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed when
>>>>I
>>>>saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut
>>>>down,
>>>>and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't know
>>>>why
>>>>this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being cooled
>>>>properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of
>>>>existing
>>>>circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of plane,
>>>>tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>>>radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner on,
>>>>the
>>>>91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for air
>>>>to
>>>>enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches of
>>>>free
>>>>opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>>>with
>>>>the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane sitting
>>>>on
>>>>the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>>>would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>>>>free
>>>>opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>>>
>>>>Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>>>>Green
>>>>tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>>>opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again,
>>>>thank
>>>>you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>>>
>>>>Hugh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gilles
>>>>Thesee
>>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test
>>>>Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
>>>><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>>>
>>>>Hi Thom,
>>>>
>>>>> I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>>>>> value
>>>>to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Agreed.
>>>>Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>>>though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>>>Nice discussion.
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>Gilles
>>>>http://contrails.free.fr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 3
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Time: 06:43:01 AM PST US
>>>>From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>>
>>>>Thom,
>>>>Good point. Hard to believe there are planes in use that do not have
>>>>a backup electric fuel pump mounted low in the system. I am a Kitfox
>>>>guy and many of these planes have the electric backup as well as a
>>>>fuel return. The standard deal is to operate the electric pump for
>>>>prestart, takeoff, & landings. The prestart e-fuel pump operation
>>>>allows the fuel bowls to both fill and aids in a less rough start.
>>>>The reduction in engine roughness is because the electric pump allows
>>>>both carb bowls to fill and thus all 4 cylinders fire at start
>>>>instead of one bank lagging due to slower filling of the carb bowls.
>>>>The return provision is built into the Kitfox design because they
>>>>wanted to provide for fuel injected engines (IO240) which all require
>>>>a fuel return. If your plane does not have the extra fitting in the
>>>>tank then a mod will to the tank would be required for the return.
>>>>Vapor lock on this design have not had any reported vapor lock.
>>>>IMO, the return fuel line is overkill for a carb engine. Good design
>>>>practice would always indicate for a backup fuel pump.
>>>>Regards, Paul
>>>>PS, One has to choose the electric pump that meets the Rotax spec for
>>>>pressure so as to avoid overpowering the carbs. Most people use a
>>>>Facet and it installs in series with the mechanical Rotax pump. It
>>>>does not need a bypass for the engine to operate with the electric
>>>>pump off. Paul
>>>>===================
>>>>
>>>>At 05:14 AM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
>>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle
>>>>><jtriddle@adelphia.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>Back in the dark ages when I was a drag racer in the very hot summer
>>>>>days in the south, my cars would sometimes get vapor lock. The
>>>>>solution for us was to install an electric fuel pump at the tank to
>>>>>make sure the whole fuel system was pressurized to something above
>>>>>ambient pressure from the tank to the carburetor instead of below
>>>>>ambient pressure due to the suction action from the engine mounted
>>>>>mechanical fuel pump. Rotax has the engine mounted fuel pump which
>>>>>draws by suction from the tank which is frequently mounted lower
>>>>>than the engine. Many aircraft have electric fuel pumps as either
>>>>>back-ups or required due to location of the fuel tanks. If your
>>>>>airplane has an electric fuel pump located such that it pressurizes
>>>>>virtually the whole fuel system (except the tank), try turning on
>>>>>this boost pump to eliminate the vapor lock. The increase in
>>>>>pressure was always enough to solve the vapor lock problem on our
>>>>>old dragsters and may work for your airplane.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thom in Buffalo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 4
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Time: 07:13:23 AM PST US
>>>>From: John Esch <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch
>>>><jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>>
>>>>All
>>>>Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>>>my
>>>>447,
>>>>I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel lines
>>>>from the
>>>>pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question is, is this a
>>>>proper
>>>>setup
>>>>or should I replace the pump for a single carb setup?
>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>>Independence, OR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 5
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Time: 07:18:37 AM PST US
>>>>From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>>>
>>>>I have a 503 single carb and use a rectangular pump with no issues.
>>>>
>>>>I would try that.
>>>>
>>>>What was the issue ? I must have missed that last week ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:13 AM
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 447
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: John Esch
>>>>> <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> All
>>>>> Last night while trying to diagnose the issue I had last Thursday with
>>>>> my
>>>>> 447, I noticed I have a fuel pump for a dual carb. The two outlet fuel
>>>>> lines from the pump go to a "T" then goes to the carb. My question
>>>>> is,
>>>>> is
>>>>> this a proper setup or should I replace the pump for a single carb
>>>>> setup?
>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>> Independence, OR
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 6
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Time: 08:20:31 AM PST US
>>>>From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>>
>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>>oil
>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as
>>>>it
>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 7
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Time: 08:54:14 AM PST US
>>>>From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>>Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh McKay III"
>>>><hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>>
>>>>Dave: The Rotax Service Instruction (SI-04-1997 R3) Section 1.5 states
>>>>that
>>>>this procedure shall be performed after lubrication system is opened or
>>>>drained during maintenance work. It doesn't specifically state that
>>>>after
>>>>changing the oil it has to be done, but as you say the system has been
>>>>"opened", so I would think it would apply. The guys at Lockwood can tell
>>>>you
>>>>for sure.
>>>>
>>>>Hugh McKay
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
>>>>Austin
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:20 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test
>>>>Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>>
>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing the
>>>>oil
>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as
>>>>it
>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________ Message 8
>>>>_____________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Time: 09:14:56 AM PST US
>>>>From: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>>Test Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jack Kuehn
>>>><jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>>
>>>>Actually it is possible to fill the oil filter at least half way, and
>>>>quickly screw it into place. It is messy, but better than an empty
>>>>filter. Then pull the prop through, top plugs removed, followed by
>>>>spinning the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure, to
>>>>prime the system.
>>>>
>>>>Jack
>>>>
>>>>Dave Austin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
>>>>><daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>Re oil venting..
>>>>>Has anyone seen any advice on what action to take when just changing
>>>>>the
>>>>>oil
>>>>>filter? It would certainly be introducing some air into the system as
>>>>>it
>>>>>isn't possible to fill the filter with oil since it lies sideways.
>>>>>SI-04-1997 dated Sept. 2002 does not address this.
>>>>>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________ Message 3
>>_____________________________________
>>
>>
>>Time: 07:58:52 PM PST US
>>From: "John Esch" <jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: gaskets
>>
>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "John Esch"
>><jfesch@earthlink.net>
>>
>>All
>>Has anyone have experience of purchasing gaskets sets from Ebay?
>>Check the following item on Ebay 220023208778
>>
>>Great deal but is it worth the chance?
>>
>>I am going to go ahead to decarbon my 447 then I really know what the
>>condition of this used engine.
>>
>>John
>>Independence, OR
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "RotaxEngines-List Digest Server" <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:57 PM
>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/05/06
>>
>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> ================================================
>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ================================================
>>>
>>> Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of
>>> the
>>> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
>>> formatted
>>> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>>> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>>> of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>>> editor
>>> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>>
>>> HTML Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.html
>>>
>>> Text Version:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list/Digest.RotaxEngines-List.2006-09-05.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> ==============================================
>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>>> ==============================================
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>>> ---
>>> Total Messages Posted Tue 09/05/06: 4
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Message Index:
>>> ----------------------
>>>
>>> 1. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 2. 07:27 AM - Re: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 3. 07:27 AM - Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (PWilson)
>>> 4. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run (B Johnson)
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________ Message 1
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Time: 07:02:53 AM PST US
>>> From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>
>>> Normal procedure when a system has no high point
>>> bleed or when one suspects an air pocket, which
>>> is 100% of the time for me. Any mechanic would do
>>> this for brakes, power steering and coolant.
>>> Based on experience some engine coolant systems
>>> do not need it. In the case of the Rotax I would
>>> do it just to be sure. Any engine has air pockets
>>> after the first fill and some will self purge.
>>> Harbor Freight has a cheap hand operated vac
>>> pump. Get a rubber stopper from the hardware
>>> store drill a hole and put it in the filler and
>>> start sucking. Do this until the vacuum holds
>>> steady. You might have to get another pressure
>>> cap and drill a hole in it to get a proper seal.
>>> Study the coolant pipes to see what you have done
>>> that may have caused a place where the bubble
>>> could form. But, who cares just bleed it to be sure.
>>>
>>> At 05:27 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh
>>>>McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>>
>>>>Paul:
>>>>
>>>>I did not bleed air out of the system. I did not know I had too! There
>>>>is
>>>>no
>>>>information in the Rotax operators manual addressing cooling system "air
>>>>pockets"! This is all news to me! Where is this "air pocket" supposed to
>>>>form, and where and how do you remove it with a "hand held" vacuum pump?
>>>>
>>>>Hugh
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>>>>PWilson
>>>>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>>>To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>>>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>>
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>>
>>>>Hugh,
>>>>I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>>>take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>>>Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>>>is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>>>air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>>>expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>>>a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>>>
>>>>BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>>>put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>>>boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>>>Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>>>buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>>>the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>>>Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>>>various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>>>Regards, Paul
>>>>==============
>>>>At 04:17 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>> >--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Hugh
>>>> >McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>>>> >
>>>> >Thom/Gilles:
>>>> >
>>>> >I have followed your dialogue with great interest, and it has helped
>>>> >me
>>>> >immensely. I have no experience with this engine, so I was alarmed
>>>> >when
>>>> >I
>>>> >saw the CHT continuing to rise. I was even more alarmed when I shut
>>>> >down,
>>>> >and heard the coolant boiling in the overflow bottle. I still don't
>>>> >know
>>>>why
>>>> >this happened. There is no question that the engine was not being
>>>> >cooled
>>>> >properly, the question is why? It may have been a combination of
>>>> >existing
>>>> >circumstances (i.e. static engine run, no horizontal movement of
>>>> >plane,
>>>> >tarmac temp 88 degrees+, engine fully cowled with spinner, horizontal
>>>> >radiator, and length of operation). I do know that with the spinner
>>>> >on,
>>>> >the
>>>> >91/2 inch diameter spinner flange eats up most of the free area for
>>>> >air
>>>> >to
>>>> >enter the engine compartment. In fact there is only 18 square inches
>>>> >of
>>>>free
>>>> >opening left for air to enter the engine compartment. This may be fine
>>>> >with
>>>> >the plane traveling at, say 90 mph, but maybe not with the plane
>>>> >sitting
>>>> >on
>>>> >the ground for 10 to 15 minutes in 88 F. I don't know, but certainly I
>>>> >would think the plane designers would design for this condition. What
>>>> >free
>>>> >opening does Rotax require on fully cowled engines?
>>>> >
>>>> >Since this was the initial engine start, I am going to call Lockwood
>>>> >Green
>>>> >tomorrow and explain every thing that happened to them and get their
>>>> >opinion. I'll keep both of you informed as to what they say. Again,
>>>> >thank
>>>> >you for your advice, counsel, experience, and knowledge.
>>>> >
>>>> >Hugh
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> >[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>>>> >Gilles
>>>> >Thesee
>>>> >Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 4:30 PM
>>>> >To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>>> >Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Allegro 2000, 912UL Initial Engine
>>>> >Test
>>>> >Run
>>>> >
>>>> >--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
>>>> ><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>>>> >
>>>> >Hi Thom,
>>>> >
>>>> > > I think we are in general agreement and the discussion has been of
>>>> > > value
>>>> >to anyone who cares, or at least I hope so.
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> >Agreed.
>>>> >Rotax engines are very tough. I don't think Hugh's engine was damaged,
>>>> >though I tend to treat my own engine more kindly ;-)
>>>> >Nice discussion.
>>>> >
>>>> >Best regards,
>>>> >Gilles
>>>> >http://contrails.free.fr
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________ Message 2
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Time: 07:27:46 AM PST US
>>> From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>
>>> Hugh,
>>> I cannot remember how many auto shop manuals I have used that give
>>> instructions on bleeding the air out of a coolant system when
>>> starting with a dry engine. Some engines even had a bleed valve some
>>> has a high point fitting. Lately on newer cars the instructions are
>>> missing . Which probably means they are self bleeding due to better
>>> design. That may be the case for the 912, but better to be safe than
>>> sorry.
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________ Message 3
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Time: 07:27:46 AM PST US
>>> From: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>
>>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>>> flying.
>>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big increase.
>>> Paul
>>> ==============
>>>
>>> At 10:32 PM 9/4/2006, you wrote:
>>>>--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "B Johnson"
>>>><bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>>>>
>>>>Beware of using the evans coolant in a system (aircraft) not
>>>>specifically
>>>>designed for it. I ended up in a baaaad situation with vapor lock (with
>>>>100LL!!! And insulated fuel lines) after switching to evans. Evans,
>>>>while
>>>>not boiling until well over 300F, also does not cool as well. You WILL
>>>>see
>>>>at least 30F increase in normal operating temps with the evans coolant.
>>>>
>>>>-Bruce
>>>>
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>>>> > rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>>>> > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 5:59 PM
>>>> > To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>>> > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: 912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>> >
>>>> > --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > Hugh,
>>>> > I have not followed closely. What steps did you
>>>> > take to bleed the air out of the coolant system?
>>>> > Its pretty common to have a big air pocket that
>>>> > is difficult to dislodge. If there is a pocket of
>>>> > air then overflow after shutdown would be
>>>> > expected as would excessive temps. I usually use
>>>> > a hand held vacuum pump for a bleed task.
>>>> >
>>>> > BTW, I would recommend spending the extra $$ and
>>>> > put in the proper coolant. This will elevate the
>>>> > boiling point and the max allowable temp. The
>>>> > Rotax bulletin tells you which formulation to
>>>> > buy. A side benefit would be the low pressure in
>>>> > the system achieved with the new low pressure cap
>>>> > Rotax cap. This will allow longer life for the
>>>> > various coolant system seals. The only drawback is cost of coolant.
>>>> > Regards, Paul
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________ Message 4
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Time: 08:12:26 AM PST US
>>> From: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>>> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>
>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "B Johnson"
>>> <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
>>>> rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:07 AM
>>>> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: R912UL Initial Engine Test Run
>>>>
>>>> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>>>>
>>>> True, the engine theoretically should run a hotter due to properties
>>>> that conduct heat less the water or 50/50 EG.
>>>> Insulating the fuel lines will capture the heat and make vapor lock
>>>> worse. All insulation does is slow the heat transfer process - wont
>>>> make the lines cooler. Better to figure out how to get some cool air
>>>> to them or re route them to a cooler place. A pretty easy thing to
>>>> solve, but for a static test there is more heat due to the plane not
>>>> flying.
>>>> Rotax has specifically specified a formulation for the Evans that is
>>>> compatible with their coolant flow and pump, so the engine should be
>>>> OK. Did you see a 30 deg F rise in oil temp? IMO, A pretty big
>>>> increase.
>>>> Paul
>>> Yes..... This was the expected behavior though, based on listening to
>>> the
>>> ultraflight radio spot on the subject.... Again, the heads were still
>>> well
>>> within the 300f limit (about 265-270 on climbout on a hot day) and the
>>> oil
>>> stayed under 250 (JUST under 250F). Then trying to leave Prescott on a
>>> hot
>>> afternoon, intermittent vapor lock reared it's ugly head... as we tried
>>> to
>>> climb out, we got some slight missing, then more, then landed to check
>>> it
>>> out... tried to take off again (runup to ~4200 was ok) but at about 4300
>>> on
>>> rollout-bad stumbling, a change on the ramp back to 60/40 auto coolant,
>>> and
>>> no more problems. (This was a 912s)
>>>
>>> -Bruce
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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John,
By any chance do you have a primer bulb in the fuel line? A friend of mine
has an C.G Hawk Ultralight and he was having surges in the engine. He replaced
the fuel line, cleaned the fuel tank, replaced the fuel pump and would
sometimes still have the surges. He was told to replace his bulb primer and that
took care of the problem. The check valve in the primer bulb was sticking. Just
a thought. Good luck.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 9/8/2006 10:58:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jfesch@earthlink.net writes:
>Have you replaced your impulse line to the fuel pump ?
Dave
I replaced the pulse line with a new and one bought from CPS about 11 hours
ago. It appears to be holding up.
I pulled the exhaust manifold off last night didn't find any carbon on the
piston rings only the normal buildup on top of the pistons and exhaust.
Nothing excessive. The piston skirts are nice and shiney.
>From what I can see there is no buildup of carbon on the other ports. I
will see if I can borrow a bore scope to get a better look at the heads.
My new pump, air and fuel filter should be here in a day or two. I have a
feeling it might be the fuel delivery system that might have been the cause.
The only thing is why it affected only one cylinder? Maybe I caught it pretty
quickly and EGT never caught up on the #1 cylinder. Who knows, things
happened pretty fast and I wasn't interested in watching the instruments at the
time, just to get myself back on the ground before things really went south.
John
Message 4
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I havent folowed the hole topic and dont like to go off on a tangent but
have you tried cheking the gage? they go bad prety fast just change the
conections and see if it makes a diferences the gage can be sent back for
calabration real cheep.or swap the sending units. if all lookes good and you
see no
sign of a temp spike on the piston or plug. mal michigan kit fox 582
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