Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:27 AM - Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 ???? (jetboy)
2. 01:17 AM - Re: Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
3. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 ???? (knowvne@aol.com)
4. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 ... (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
5. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 ???? (Gary)
6. 07:45 AM - Re: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact (Jack Kuehn)
7. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 ... (knowvne@aol.com)
8. 08:02 AM - Re: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact (Gary)
9. 11:54 AM - new Service Bulletin (Roger Lee)
10. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips (Dave G.)
11. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 ... (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
12. 12:57 PM - Evans Coolant and Rotax Airbox (Jeffrey A Beachy)
13. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 ... (knowvne@aol.com)
14. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 ... (ElleryWeld@aol.com)
15. 05:21 PM - Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips (Roger Lee)
16. 05:28 PM - Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips (Roger Lee)
17. 05:33 PM - Re: Evans Coolant and Rotax Airbox (Roger Lee)
18. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips (David Austin)
19. 06:57 PM - Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips (JetPilot)
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| Subject: | Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or 582 |
????
503 by far- I have run 2 of them and they are as reliable as 2 strokes can go.
The choice depends heavily on application - if you require more power and staying
with 2 strokes there is the Siminonni and also a 3 cyl. Hirth to think about
but they probably also have the intake valving and water pump/ systems like
a 532/582/618. We had a 618 go down the other day with the usual 'cold seize'.
I found fuel consumption is the least of your operating problems. Engine consumption
is a bigger factor. Theres lots of good free advice on CPS website,
and chapters devoted to service/ problem notes for the various models. They have
to be used regularly, and cranks or engines changed as a matter of procedure
on hours - dont wait for them to warn you - they wont.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'627#96627
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| Subject: | Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips |
<<I am willing to bet that it would run only 30 seconds after losing oil
pressure>>
It's been proven to run for more than 20 minutes, during an 80 mile sea
crossing where the oil pressure disappeared half way across!
Duncan McF.
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| Subject: | Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or |
582 ????
Hi Ralph Thanks for the Heads up....
I'm considering a trike only because of its store ability or a KOLB
Firestar for the same reason ...
The 503 will work fine on either...
I'm after a low cost, simple reliable power plant and the 503 seems to
be the ticket..
I do however need to learn more about maintaining the system...
Can you direct me to CPS? Thanks!
I live in New England so it will see seasonal use ..
I understand 2 strokes require moth balling when not used for a period
of time.
It could be up to 4 months between flights during out winter months
....
Maybe a flight or two off our frozen lakes in that time frame 8-)
Thanks Again
Mark Vaughn
-----Original Message-----
From: sanson.r@xtra.co.nz
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 3:26 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447,
503 or 582 ????
503 by far- I have run 2 of them and they are as reliable as 2 strokes
can go.
The choice depends heavily on application - if you require more power
and
staying with 2 strokes there is the Siminonni and also a 3 cyl. Hirth
to think
about but they probably also have the intake valving and water pump/
systems
like a 532/582/618. We had a 618 go down the other day with the usual
'cold
seize'. I found fuel consumption is the least of your operating
problems.
Engine consumption is a bigger factor. Theres lots of good free advice
on CPS
website, and chapters devoted to service/ problem notes for the
various models.
They have to be used regularly, and cranks or engines changed as a
matter of
procedure on hours - dont wait for them to warn you - they wont.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'627#96627
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| Subject: | Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or |
582 ...
I have used the 377 and two of the 447 Rotax engines in the many years of my
time in the air and have never had an engine out ,I now fly with a New 447 and
Fly with a friend that has the 582 on his T-Bird if I use 5 gallons of fuel
He will use 71/2 gallons of fuel on the same trip and he is much slower than I
am (draggy T-Bird) so fuel burn can be a problem if your expecting to make
it to the next airport and can not carry enough fuel to do so.
Ellery
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 |
or 582 ????
Guess I don't understand..... you say how reliable they are, then say
you should replace crankshafts or engines after a few hundred hours
though there are no signs of trouble.
I have a 447 which has flown nearly 800 hours in an N3 Pup. It has been
flying since 1986. The only maintenance has been spark plugs every 40
hours or so, and one new fan belt. It is single ignition, and still has
the original set of points. Starts and runs just fine. Nothing done to
the A gearbox except gear lube changes. I am not aware of any sudden
crankshaft failures in this series of engines. I did have one
precautionary landing in the 800 hours due to a fouled plug. It was
losing power but did not quit until I got on the ground. It is mounted
inverted, and had sat for some time since the last flight. The spark
plug filled with oil.
Gary
jetboy wrote:
>
> 503 by far- I have run 2 of them and they are as reliable as 2 strokes can go.
The choice depends heavily on application - if you require more power and staying
with 2 strokes there is the Siminonni and also a 3 cyl. Hirth to think about
but they probably also have the intake valving and water pump/ systems like
a 532/582/618. We had a 618 go down the other day with the usual 'cold seize'.
I found fuel consumption is the least of your operating problems. Engine
consumption is a bigger factor. Theres lots of good free advice on CPS website,
and chapters devoted to service/ problem notes for the various models. They
have to be used regularly, and cranks or engines changed as a matter of procedure
on hours - dont wait for them to warn you - they wont.
>
> Ralph
>
> --------
> Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact |
I flew into Billings MT after calling the FBO there to confirm they had
mogas. WHen I got there they gave me the story about liability...they
had mogas but could not even pump it into my can. All the small
airports across Montana, Soutn Dakota and Minnesota with self serve have
only 100LL except Mobridge on the Missouri River in South Dakota.
Friendly little FBO there has a pump you can taxi up to, and the owner
told me his insurance company told him not to pump auto gas into
airplanes, but he does it anyway! At Missoula Montana near where I live
they will fill your can but not your plane. Silly and very
inconvenient. I'm glad that west of here the story is better. WHen will
the insurance companies get real?
Gary wrote:
> Never heard of that one. I fly in Montana, Washington, Idaho,
> Wyoming, Dakotas, etc. There are several airports that have Mogas,
> and you pump it into your airplane. Arlington Washington has a nice
> credit card pump with mogas that gets a lot of use during the EAA fly
> in and year round.
>
> Gary
>
> Jack Kuehn wrote:
>
>> <jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>
>> The problem I ran into on a cross country from Western Montana to
>> Minnesota was that even if an airport had mogas, they are not allowed
>> to pump it into an airplane, regardless of what the engine
>> requirements are, because of insurance company rules. If you carry a
>> gas can, you can buy the gas and pour it yourself, but this is not so
>> simple when your plane is already full of stuff. I mixed auto gas
>> and 100LL with no problem, and I use synthetic fuel, but I changed
>> the plugs and the oil when I returned, which happened to be the time
>> to change oil anyway. The plugs showed plenty of lead on them, so
>> there may be issues with this over hundreds of hours of use. I also
>> used the non-toxic lead scavenger additive (forgot the name!). Just
>> as an aside note, I use a 1/2 dose of Sta-bil in the auto gas in the
>> winter when I fly less. This makes for much quicker and smoother
>> starting in cold weather, though I keep the plane in a heated hangar.
>> Jack
>>
>> NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> Thom,
>>>
>>> I have a 912uls and I am supposed to use premium unleaded, I was
>>> wondering on a cross country flight with an airport that has 100LL
>>> and 87 MoGas would it be alright to mix the two together and have
>>> enough octane but reduce the lead level? There seems to be few
>>> airports that have 91MoGas.
>>>
>>> Bob Spudis
>>> N701ZX/ CH-701/ 912S
>>>
>>
>>
>*
>
>
>*
>
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Lane
Lolo, MT 59847
(406) 273-6801
(406) 546-1086 (cell)
(406) 273-2563 (fax)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or |
582 ...
Hi Ellery
With your 447 at 75% power ( about 5,100 rpm ) Whats your fuel
consumption???
The ROTAX Operators Manuel on the KODIAK RESEARCH site states 5.3 @
take-off performance... ( I assume this to mean full power at 6,800 RPM)
and lists at 75% power ( 5,100rpm ) a burn rate of 3 Gallons Per
Hour....
Is this your findings here in New England ? And do you find the 447 to
be enough
motor for your Firestar or fly --- Which do you fly???
Thanks
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: ElleryWeld@aol.com
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax
447, 503 or 582 ...
I have used the 377 and two of the 447 Rotax engines in the many years
of my time in the air and have never had an engine out ,I now fly with
a New 447 and Fly with a friend that has the 582 on his T-Bird if I
use 5 gallons of fuel He will use 71/2 gallons of fuel on the same trip
and he is much slower than I am (draggy T-Bird) so fuel burn can be a
problem if your expecting to make it to the next airport and can not
carry enough fuel to do so.
Ellery
do not archive
**************************************
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact |
Hi, Jack. Yes, pretty ridiculous. The main problem I've had is finding
Mogas at airports.
You are located in Missoula? I am near Great Falls. What kind of plane
are you flying? Maybe I can contact you off list.
Gary
Jack Kuehn wrote:
> <jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>
> I flew into Billings MT after calling the FBO there to confirm they
> had mogas. WHen I got there they gave me the story about
> liability...they had mogas but could not even pump it into my can.
> All the small airports across Montana, Soutn Dakota and Minnesota with
> self serve have only 100LL except Mobridge on the Missouri River in
> South Dakota. Friendly little FBO there has a pump you can taxi up
> to, and the owner told me his insurance company told him not to pump
> auto gas into airplanes, but he does it anyway! At Missoula Montana
> near where I live they will fill your can but not your plane. Silly
> and very inconvenient. I'm glad that west of here the story is better.
> WHen will the insurance companies get real?
>
> Gary wrote:
>
>> Never heard of that one. I fly in Montana, Washington, Idaho,
>> Wyoming, Dakotas, etc. There are several airports that have Mogas,
>> and you pump it into your airplane. Arlington Washington has a nice
>> credit card pump with mogas that gets a lot of use during the EAA fly
>> in and year round.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> Jack Kuehn wrote:
>>
>>> <jkuehn@mountaintime.myrf.net>
>>>
>>> The problem I ran into on a cross country from Western Montana to
>>> Minnesota was that even if an airport had mogas, they are not
>>> allowed to pump it into an airplane, regardless of what the engine
>>> requirements are, because of insurance company rules. If you carry
>>> a gas can, you can buy the gas and pour it yourself, but this is not
>>> so simple when your plane is already full of stuff. I mixed auto
>>> gas and 100LL with no problem, and I use synthetic fuel, but I
>>> changed the plugs and the oil when I returned, which happened to be
>>> the time to change oil anyway. The plugs showed plenty of lead on
>>> them, so there may be issues with this over hundreds of hours of
>>> use. I also used the non-toxic lead scavenger additive (forgot the
>>> name!). Just as an aside note, I use a 1/2 dose of Sta-bil in the
>>> auto gas in the winter when I fly less. This makes for much quicker
>>> and smoother starting in cold weather, though I keep the plane in a
>>> heated hangar.
>>> Jack
>>>
>>> NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thom,
>>>>
>>>> I have a 912uls and I am supposed to use premium unleaded, I was
>>>> wondering on a cross country flight with an airport that has 100LL
>>>> and 87 MoGas would it be alright to mix the two together and have
>>>> enough octane but reduce the lead level? There seems to be few
>>>> airports that have 91MoGas.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Spudis
>>>> N701ZX/ CH-701/ 912S
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | new Service Bulletin |
Dear Registered User;
The following new Service Instruction has been released by Rotax:
SI-912-019,
SI-914-021 - OIL LEAKAGES IN THE AREA OF THE CYLINDER BARREL FOR ROTAX ENGINE TYPE
912 AND 914 (SERIES)
This new service document may be downloaded from www.rotax-owner.com
SI-912-019 - http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=byteboy&DOCID=SI-912-019&S_TYPE=NW
SI-914-021 - http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=byteboy&DOCID=SI-914-021&S_TYPE=NW
THE SUPPLEMENTAL INFORMATION SHOWN BELOW IS GENERAL IN NATURE AND IS NOT INTENDED
TO REPLACE THE INFORMATION PROVIDED IN THE SERVICE DOCUMENT.
ALL OWNERS, OPERATORS AND MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL SHOULD OBTAIN AND CAREFULLY REVIEW
THE FULL TEXT OF THE SERVICE DOCUMENT.
Due to deviation during the assembly operation, some isolated cases of slight oil
leakage in the area of the cylinder barrel have been noted on the new style
crankcases. For repair purposes, Rotax has created a special gasket which seals
this area.
Please note that only engines which display traces of oil leakage in the area depicted
on the appendix of the Service Instruction SI-912 019 / SI-914-021 and
for which the serial number falls within range listed in section 1.1 of the Service
Instruction need to comply.
This e-mail update is provided as a free service to registered users.
Register with Rotax Owners Association News today!
Note*
Hi Guys,
I don't think this will effect us that has had aRotax 912 for a while. This is
for the newer engine serial numbers. The gasket they are talking about is really
a double "O" ring that is stuck together. We went over this bulletin in class.
You would only have to do this if you are affected by a leak. These are just
"O" rings that slide over the cylinder head studs. The ones in our engines
are a single "O" rings and the fix is a double "O" ring.
If you have a leak it will be at the base of the cylinders at the crankcase.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'711#96711
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips |
I bet you could go 30 minutes. I once ran an industrial engine at full
throttle for 40 minutes before someone told me there was NO oil in it. I'm
sure there was damage but it's been years and that engine is still running
fine. I would have bet against it, but there ya go.
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:12 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips
> <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Roger Lee wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> 4. You 912 was set up to fly for up to 30 minutes at 75% power if you
>> lose oil pressure. Yes, btter to land, but not at the expense of
>> crashing. Yes the engine will need some work if you go for the 75% at 30
>> min. .
>>
>>
>
>
> I am willing to bet that it would run only 30 seconds after losing oil
> pressure [Wink] Im betting you meant "if you lose the coolant ...
> "
> You talked about a minimum of vibration from 4800 to 5200 RPM. It makes
> perfect sense that you would get excessive wear running more than 5200
> RPM, but What happens if you run 4500 RPM ? Mine engine and plane are
> very happy crusing at 4500 RPM, any problem with this ?
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'597#96597
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or |
582 ...
Mark
I fly one of the Original firestars and its a fat one with the 447 electronic
Ignition second engine the last one was a 447 with Points and it was just as
good Plenty of power to spare I fly it on Wheels and skis and I think I will
have plenty of power when I get my floats on also
@ 5100 RPM its fuel burn is 2.5 to 2.8 GPH
Ellery
do not archive
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Evans Coolant and Rotax Airbox |
I am planning on running Evans coolant in my new 912ULS. I noticed that
some slight residue was in the coolant system, presumably from a factory
test run. Is it necessary to flush a brand new engine before using Evans,
or is it okay to simply use Evans from the first fill?
Also, on my Rotax airbox, I have the small bottom end holes attached to
hoses which I have run down to the slipstream. Is this correct? I know
not to extend the carb lines down due to the pressure compensating
feature, but is this a non-factor when using the Rotax airbox?
Thanks!
Jeff Beachy
Zenith CH701
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or |
582 ...
Hi Ellery
That's decent enough...
So using 3.5 per hour would be a good estimate for XC use
That leaves you some full power climb and reserve wiggle room... 8-)
On a stable day roughly what's your ground speed at 5,100 rpm ?
And lastly what's your Gross Weight .... You said it was a FAT
firestar ?
Also I see you have one listed on the BarnStormer is that the FAT
one????
Why you selling??? For that matter Why are a lot of KOLB owners selling
???
is it a SPORT PILOT rating issue????
Mark
Mark Vaughn
-----Original Message-----
From: ElleryWeld@aol.com
Sent: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax
447, 503 or 582 ...
Mark
I fly one of the Original firestars and its a fat one with the 447
electronic Ignition second engine the last one was a 447 with Points
and it was just as good Plenty of power to spare I fly it on Wheels and
skis and I think I will have plenty of power when I get my floats on
also
@ 5100 RPM its fuel burn is 2.5 to 2.8 GPH
Ellery
do not archive
**************************************
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
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________________________________________________________________________
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Which is the best 2 stroke Rotax 447, 503 or |
582 ...
Mark
at 5100 RPM my ground speed is around 65 MPH
Yes the one on barnstormers is the one, I am 185 lbs and 10 gallons of gas
and me in it weighs in at 588 lbs if I remember correctly
I am selling it because I am working on getting A private license so I can
be legal but I need a bigger plane so My wife can go and I have a son
interested in learning how to fly also
if I had all kinds of money I wouldnt think of selling it I would just use
it when I went flying alone
I have more in it then the asking price and I have done some major
improvements to that little plane that you never see in another Kolb of the same
caliber
,and shes a blast to fly I am just hoping what ever I get next will fly as
good as it does
Ellery
do not archive
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips |
Sorry, my mistake I did mean coolant. Not oil. Thanks for pointing it out.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'785#96785
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| Subject: | Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips |
Hi Guys,
In the class Eric stated that running under 4700 rpm and below has more vibration
introduced to the gear box. Most engines tend to run better frquency vibration
at certain rpm's. You should have better fuel burn with better distance covered
at 4800-5200rpm. If you look at the torque chart for the 912/100hp the best
torque v.s. hp happens at 4800 to 5200, after 5200 torque starts to fall off
as hp slightly increases.
Sorry guys for the mistake on coolant v.s. oil loss. I have been typing so much
lately my brain getting mushy. LOL
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'787#96787
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| Subject: | Re: Evans Coolant and Rotax Airbox |
Hi Jeff,
If all the water is out except for a few spoon fulls which you coudn't get out
anyway the just go with the Evans. I have used Evans in my last plane and my new
one and I have been happy.
I'm not sure about the airbox. Look online under Rotax/Kodiak and look under their
installation manual.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'788#96788
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| Subject: | Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips |
I'm inclined to believe this is a version of a story Chris Hientz told me.
On his way back from Oshkosh to Canada he flew across lake Michigan (45
miles) and had a coolant hose failure half way across. Throttled back to
75% and made an airport just beyond the Michigan shoreline. I think I agree
that without oil it would quit quite quickly.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@MCFADYEAN.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:16 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> <<I am willing to bet that it would run only 30 seconds after losing oil
> pressure>>
>
> It's been proven to run for more than 20 minutes, during an 80 mile sea
> crossing where the oil pressure disappeared half way across!
>
> Duncan McF.
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Dynamic prop balance and Tips |
Thanks for the good engine info as always Roger Lee :)
Given that, I will keep it at least 4800 RPM for cruise.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p'805#96805
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