Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:25 AM - 912UL Lost oil??? (Don G)
2. 08:15 AM - Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (David Key)
3. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (Thilo Kind)
4. 10:39 AM - Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (BOB MCMILLIN)
5. 10:53 AM - Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (Don G)
6. 10:56 AM - Re: Muffler coating (Don G)
7. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: 912UL Lost =?UTF-8?Q?oil=3F=3F=3F? (Jack Kuehn)
8. 11:28 AM - Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (Gilles Thesee)
9. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (Hugh McKay III)
10. 02:42 PM - Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (Roger Lee)
11. 08:59 PM - Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (Don G)
12. 11:06 PM - Re: 912UL Lost oil??? (Gilles Thesee)
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| Subject: | 912UL Lost oil??? |
Yesterday, after getting N85KF's annual signed off by my A&P, I was able to finally
get into the air with my new bird. Flew great...much more nimble than I thought
they were these speedsters! Enjoyed an hour of exploreing its capabilities.
This might even be an understatement as I was 45 minutes or so in to my joyride,
and a local bud with a Stearman appeared off my wing, on an intersecting
course. Well, boys being boys..we tangled for 10 minutes or probably less...If
only I would have had a gunsite..
Anyway...upon declareing a gentlemanly draw...we went our seperate ways and I looked
down for a engine scan...rut roh...Oil temps high...real high..like 280F...water
fine at 220 and oil pressure down to 30. hmmm pulled back on the throttle
quickly to 4400 and stared at that oil temp guage for 5 minutes...maybe more..but
my stareing didnt help. The Oil temp would not change. another couple
of minutes and I am back in the pattern at homeplate. Landed uneventfully and
taxi'd up to my hangar.
Temp still up. Sat there at 2500 rpms for a min or so and no change.
SHut it down. Got out and I see Oil all overt he left gear and step...arghhh..
Pulled off the cowl and it looks like it came from the TOP of the oil tank. Oil
all over the firewall and a puddle on the rim of the tank top. Not able to determine
just where it cam from...maybe either from a leaky overflow hose clamp
or from under the tank cap we are thinking?...the 2 hex fittings on in and out
lines are not really suspect...dry and clean.
By now I have a crowd...I wipe it down and get extra eyes and start it up with
an observer on each side...me in the pit...temp now down to 240....oil pressure
up to 35 , 38 or so. run it up to 3500 and my observers tell me they see nothing...down
around 2400 for a few minutes....temp continueing to drop...but no
leaks.
Somebody with 912 experience speculate what the Heck happened!!!!
Other details:
Engine 912UL 134 TT
3 blade 68inch warp...set for 5200 static
WOT in level flight turns about 5450 on rotax tach.
(gonna check that panel tach against a handheld induction tach today, after I change
the oil)
Unknown oil type. No indication in records of last oil change or what kind,, but
looked really new.
I had ran he engine the day before for 20 min or so doing static tests and such.
I had also moved the ingnition coils and modules to the firewall after trailering
this aircraft Home and reassembling, fixing a few qaucks
Oil level check after flight showed oil down to lower mark on dipstick, it was
in the middle prior to flight. So whatever that represents is how much it puked
out.
YEs for the brief period fooling around with the Stearman, I ran it hard...WOT
on climbing and chaseing...backing off when diveing and manuvering..but I didnt
think I ran it THAT hard, since the prop is set like it is. never saw over 5500
I dont think.
For most of the flight, I ran it at 5000rpms and less..exploreing slower flight,
with no temps riseing at all.
OK....this is my very first experience with a 912. I am no a novice with engines..they
are my profession...but I know enough to no I can never know enough..
and before you'all say it...Yea..looks like the Stearman won!
Any comments are Welcome and hoped for. Tell me what you think.
Don
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118193#118193
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| Subject: | 912UL Lost oil??? |
For some reason mine also tends to leak when I have high turn/dive angles. I
think mine comes from the overflow tube. I've been taking it easy and
keeping the G's up and that helps. I'm a newbie with a 912 too.
>From: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912UL Lost oil???
>Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:24:46 -0700
>
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost oil??? |
Hi Folks,
I never had any oil loss through the overflow hoses, even when pushing the plane
hard and in steep turns etc. Suspect, that in this case the lid was not proberly
installed and thus the oil leaked out. One point just caught ny attention
- the Rotax 912 is designed for 5200 RPM max except for take off - here, one
can go to 5800 RPM but for maximum of 5 miuntes.
Thilo
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:15:03 -0500
Von: "David Key" <dhkey@msn.com>
An: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Betreff: RE: RotaxEngines-List: 912UL Lost oil???
>
> For some reason mine also tends to leak when I have high turn/dive angles.
> I
> think mine comes from the overflow tube. I've been taking it easy and
> keeping the G's up and that helps. I'm a newbie with a 912 too.
>
>
> >From: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
> >To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912UL Lost oil???
> >Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:24:46 -0700
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--
Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehrt?
Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost oil??? |
do you have a whistle hole in vent line ? or try a different location for
exit to slipstream. bob mcmillin sparrow II 912 ul 215 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:24 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912UL Lost oil???
>
> Yesterday, after getting N85KF's annual signed off by my A&P, I was able
> to finally get into the air with my new bird. Flew great...much more
> nimble than I thought they were these speedsters! Enjoyed an hour of
> exploreing its capabilities. This might even be an understatement as I was
> 45 minutes or so in to my joyride, and a local bud with a Stearman
> appeared off my wing, on an intersecting course. Well, boys being boys..we
> tangled for 10 minutes or probably less...If only I would have had a
> gunsite..
> Anyway...upon declareing a gentlemanly draw...we went our seperate ways
> and I looked down for a engine scan...rut roh...Oil temps high...real
> high..like 280F...water fine at 220 and oil pressure down to 30. hmmm
> pulled back on the throttle quickly to 4400 and stared at that oil temp
> guage for 5 minutes...maybe more..but my stareing didnt help. The Oil temp
> would not change. another couple of minutes and I am back in the pattern
> at homeplate. Landed uneventfully and taxi'd up to my hangar.
> Temp still up. Sat there at 2500 rpms for a min or so and no change.
> SHut it down. Got out and I see Oil all overt he left gear and
> step...arghhh..
> Pulled off the cowl and it looks like it came from the TOP of the oil
> tank. Oil all over the firewall and a puddle on the rim of the tank top.
> Not able to determine just where it cam from...maybe either from a leaky
> overflow hose clamp or from under the tank cap we are thinking?...the 2
> hex fittings on in and out lines are not really suspect...dry and clean.
> By now I have a crowd...I wipe it down and get extra eyes and start it up
> with an observer on each side...me in the pit...temp now down to
> 240....oil pressure up to 35 , 38 or so. run it up to 3500 and my
> observers tell me they see nothing...down around 2400 for a few
> minutes....temp continueing to drop...but no leaks.
> Somebody with 912 experience speculate what the Heck happened!!!!
>
> Other details:
>
> Engine 912UL 134 TT
> 3 blade 68inch warp...set for 5200 static
> WOT in level flight turns about 5450 on rotax tach.
> (gonna check that panel tach against a handheld induction tach today,
> after I change the oil)
> Unknown oil type. No indication in records of last oil change or what
> kind,, but looked really new.
> I had ran he engine the day before for 20 min or so doing static tests and
> such. I had also moved the ingnition coils and modules to the firewall
> after trailering this aircraft Home and reassembling, fixing a few qaucks
> Oil level check after flight showed oil down to lower mark on dipstick, it
> was in the middle prior to flight. So whatever that represents is how much
> it puked out.
> YEs for the brief period fooling around with the Stearman, I ran it
> hard...WOT on climbing and chaseing...backing off when diveing and
> manuvering..but I didnt think I ran it THAT hard, since the prop is set
> like it is. never saw over 5500 I dont think.
> For most of the flight, I ran it at 5000rpms and less..exploreing slower
> flight, with no temps riseing at all.
> OK....this is my very first experience with a 912. I am no a novice with
> engines..they are my profession...but I know enough to no I can never know
> enough..
> and before you'all say it...Yea..looks like the Stearman won!
>
> Any comments are Welcome and hoped for. Tell me what you think.
>
> Don
>
> --------
> Don G.
> Central Illinois
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Luscombe 8A
>
> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118193#118193
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost oil??? |
There a possibility I didnt have the lid on all the way of course.
Dont know about a hole in the vent line...believe I will change that . It exits
right in front of left gear leg. ANd I am pretty sure alot of the oil on the
leg was from that hose.
I though I read in the manual that 5500 was max continueous rpms???
Which is why I left the prop alone when it is turning 5450 WOT level flight.
anything over 5500 5 min max --
with 5800 max at 1min
Are those the correct numbers?
Another question....when I changed the oil today...I rolled it over with the prop
untill I thought I heard it burp in the tank...turned it over several times
to make sure...
then took off tank and drained....pulled oil filter while tank was draining....filled
a new one and installed...then...
thought I would check the mag drain plug...
How much oil should run out?...I bet a quart was in the crankcase, is this normal?...I
was expecting alot less.
And discovered I dont have a magnet on my drain plug too.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118252#118252
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| Subject: | Re: Muffler coating |
Thom,
The generally described "ceramic coating" is a powder coat process.
Just take a hotter oven than most shops have.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118253#118253
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost =?UTF-8?Q?oil=3F=3F=3F? |
-Do you have an oil thermostat? When they fail they are supposed to fail to open,
but who knows? Also, I am guessing that perhaps the low oil pressure is an
indication of a small leak in the return line from the bottom of the case to
the can. Perhaps this leak is so small that it only shows up when you are flying.
Try replacing some hoses. I have my overflow draining into a small plastic
bottle and it never has more than a tablespoon of water and a table spoon
of oil in it. Definitely call Lockwood in Florida and talk to a tech about the
missing magnet and the whole problem. I know they suggest that when changing
the oil, don't worry about draining everything out of the cooler, engine sump,
gear box, etc. They believe it is not worth it.
Jack
BOB MCMILLIN wrote:
>
> do you have a whistle hole in vent line ? or try a different location for exit
to slipstream. bob mcmillin sparrow II 912 ul 215 hrs
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
> To: <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:24 AM
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912UL Lost oil???
>
>
>>
>> Yesterday, after getting N85KF's annual signed off by my A&P, I was able to
finally get into the air with my new bird. Flew great...much more nimble than
I thought they were these speedsters! Enjoyed an hour of exploreing its capabilities.
This might even be an understatement as I was 45 minutes or so in to my
joyride, and a local bud with a Stearman appeared off my wing, on an intersecting
course. Well, boys being boys..we tangled for 10 minutes or probably less...If
only I would have had a gunsite..
>> Anyway...upon declareing a gentlemanly draw...we went our seperate ways and
I looked down for a engine scan...rut roh...Oil temps high...real high..like 280F...water
fine at 220 and oil pressure down to 30. hmmm pulled back on the throttle
quickly to 4400 and stared at that oil temp guage for 5 minutes...maybe
more..but my stareing didnt help. The Oil temp would not change. another couple
of minutes and I am back in the pattern at homeplate. Landed uneventfully
and taxi'd up to my hangar.
>> Temp still up. Sat there at 2500 rpms for a min or so and no change.
>> SHut it down. Got out and I see Oil all overt he left gear and step...arghhh..
>> Pulled off the cowl and it looks like it came from the TOP of the oil tank.
Oil all over the firewall and a puddle on the rim of the tank top. Not able to
determine just where it cam from...maybe either from a leaky overflow hose clamp
or from under the tank cap we are thinking?...the 2 hex fittings on in and
out lines are not really suspect...dry and clean.
>> By now I have a crowd...I wipe it down and get extra eyes and start it up with
an observer on each side...me in the pit...temp now down to 240....oil pressure
up to 35 , 38 or so. run it up to 3500 and my observers tell me they see
nothing...down around 2400 for a few minutes....temp continueing to drop...but
no leaks.
>> Somebody with 912 experience speculate what the Heck happened!!!!
>>
>> Other details:
>>
>> Engine 912UL 134 TT
>> 3 blade 68inch warp...set for 5200 static
>> WOT in level flight turns about 5450 on rotax tach.
>> (gonna check that panel tach against a handheld induction tach today, after
I change the oil)
>> Unknown oil type. No indication in records of last oil change or what kind,,
but looked really new.
>> I had ran he engine the day before for 20 min or so doing static tests and such.
I had also moved the ingnition coils and modules to the firewall after trailering
this aircraft Home and reassembling, fixing a few qaucks
>> Oil level check after flight showed oil down to lower mark on dipstick, it was
in the middle prior to flight. So whatever that represents is how much it puked
out.
>> YEs for the brief period fooling around with the Stearman, I ran it hard...WOT
on climbing and chaseing...backing off when diveing and manuvering..but I didnt
think I ran it THAT hard, since the prop is set like it is. never saw over
5500 I dont think.
>> For most of the flight, I ran it at 5000rpms and less..exploreing slower flight,
with no temps riseing at all.
>> OK....this is my very first experience with a 912. I am no a novice with engines..they
are my profession...but I know enough to no I can never know enough..
>> and before you'all say it...Yea..looks like the Stearman won!
>>
>> Any comments are Welcome and hoped for. Tell me what you think.
>>
>> Don
>>
>> --------
>> Don G.
>> Central Illinois
>> Kitfox IV Speedster
>> Luscombe 8A
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118193#118193
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Lane
Lolo, MT 59847
(406) 273-6801
(406) 546-1086 cell
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost oil??? |
Don G a crit :
> then took off tank and drained....pulled oil filter while tank was draining....filled
a new one and installed...then...
> thought I would check the mag drain plug...
>
The magnetic plug is NOT a drain plug. It is located on the left side of
the reduction unit.
The Rotax is a dry sump engine, so once you have the burp, most of the
oil is in the separate oil tank.
Rotax advises against introducing air into the oil circuits during oil
changes. I'll suggest you perform the "oil circuit venting" procedure
before starting the engine again.
> How much oil should run out?...I bet a quart was in the crankcase, is this normal?...I
was expecting alot less.
> And discovered I dont have a magnet on my drain plug too.
>
You may wish to read the Owner and Maintenance manuals. They are
downloadable from the Kodiak research website, for instance.
Also I would suggest you register to the Rotax Owner website to receive
relevant updates and Service Bulletins.
Regards,
--
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost oil??? |
Don:
Now that you have opened the oil system up to air (i.e removed the tank and
drained it, and pulled the filter while draining the tank) you need to
carefully read the Rotax SI 912-018 on purging the oil system of air, and
follow the procedure before you restart the engine. It is important that you
remove any trapped air from the entire oil system before you run the engine
again or you can damage your valves. This is very important. Don't neglect
to do it. If you have questions about the procedure, call Lockwood Aviation.
They are very helpful.
Hugh McKay in NC
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
N661WW
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don G
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 1:53 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912UL Lost oil???
There a possibility I didnt have the lid on all the way of course.
Dont know about a hole in the vent line...believe I will change that . It
exits right in front of left gear leg. ANd I am pretty sure alot of the oil
on the leg was from that hose.
I though I read in the manual that 5500 was max continueous rpms???
Which is why I left the prop alone when it is turning 5450 WOT level flight.
anything over 5500 5 min max --
with 5800 max at 1min
Are those the correct numbers?
Another question....when I changed the oil today...I rolled it over with the
prop untill I thought I heard it burp in the tank...turned it over several
times to make sure...
then took off tank and drained....pulled oil filter while tank was
draining....filled a new one and installed...then...
thought I would check the mag drain plug...
How much oil should run out?...I bet a quart was in the crankcase, is this
normal?...I was expecting alot less.
And discovered I dont have a magnet on my drain plug too.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118252#118252
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost oil??? |
Hi Don,
Filter needs tightening is my bet, but read on.
Where exactlly did you pull what you thought the magnetic plug from? Was it on
the side of the gearbox on the right side as you face the engine or down on the
bottom of the oil pump just under and to the left of the oil filter? You should
have got a very small amount from a magnetic plug check, but not a quart.
If you pulled the plug under the filter this is part of an oil bypass system.
Was there a spring and a small ball bearing?
You may have a small leak in the hose, but I would think it would be a fitting
or something on the oil line system that needs to be checked. I would check my
tank top first and them all the oil line fittings.
This engine really doesn't use oil in any type of flight especially with 134 hrs.
on it. Something has to be loose. Tighten everything, but don't over tighten.
Big P.S.
A number of people only put the oil filter on hand tight and that works sometimes,
but some have a high enough pressure that the oil filter has to be put on
with a little extra turn with a wrench. I have personally had this problem. My
last 912uls hand tight was ok, but when I did it with my new plane I had oil
under the cowling. This is another leak area. See if there is what seems to be
a drop of oil under the filter. Give it a little turn even if you think it is
good.
Your engine rpm is fine. 5500 rpm at WOT is ok for constant run. This is a good
balance between climb and cruise performance. Best and coolest engine running
rpm is 4800-5200. Best torque, best engine vibration and cooler running.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118295#118295
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost oil??? |
OK...getting alot of good dope here tonite..
first...
Roger,
Drain plug on the gearbox,,,,hmmm. The plug I pulled was on the bottom of the crankcase...close
to the split seam...towards the back of the engine. no where
near the oil pump or gearbox..female allen in the center of it...maybe 1-1/4 diameter
flat plug with smaller threads. If I would have had a flashlight I beleive
I could have looked at the crankshaft from that hole..
No wonder there was no magnet on it. Lotsa oil in there even after burping the
heck out of it.
I used only hand strength on the oil filter, the replaced the hose clamp and safty
wire.
I will put a little extra on it tomorrow with a wrench to be safe.
Hugh, OK...I am downloading the rotax manuals right now.
If I understand you right, removeing the filter while the suction line is off the
tank, will let air get into the system via the oil cooler then oil pump?
doesnt this 912 have a gearoter oil pump?
IS the oil pump rotor clearance so large that air can go thru the pump this way?
arghhh...I didnt consider that. I am used to Honda gear pumps...about the same
size, and air will not go thru them when at rest.
Looks like I am gonna learn to purge!
Jack...no oil thermostat.
Another thing to note..a fella at the airport noticed a weld/repair job on the
gooseneck fitting on the top of the Oil tank and speculated that if there was
a hole in that suction line...It could be sucking air and foaming the oil up so
it would read high temp and low pressure. This kinda makes sense to me.
Any comments on this thought? IS this possible?
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118352#118352
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 912UL Lost oil??? |
Don G a crit :
> I used only hand strength on the oil filter, the replaced the hose clamp and
safty wire.
> I will put a little extra on it tomorrow with a wrench to be safe.
>
Just like in a car, no need to wrench the oil filter. Screw it up to
contact, then hand turn it the advised amount (printed on the filter),
and it will stay put and won't leak. Wrenching it is a sure way to
difficulties when removing the filter at next oil change.
Never had a problem, be it in cars or in Rotax engines.
> Hugh, OK...I am downloading the rotax manuals right now.
>
> IS the oil pump rotor clearance so large that air can go thru the pump this way?
arghhh...I didnt consider that. I am used to Honda gear pumps...about the
same size, and air will not go thru them when at rest.
> Looks like I am gonna learn to purge!
>
The oil pump is of the trochoid type.
Getting air into the system may introduce air into the hydraulic valve
lifters, according to Rotax. Hence to oil venting procedure.
> Another thing to note..a fella at the airport noticed a weld/repair job on the
gooseneck fitting on the top of the Oil tank and speculated that if there was
a hole in that suction line...
No problem on the IN fitting. But yes, any leak or restriction to the
OUT fitting or oil line may induce lubrication problems.
> It could be sucking air and foaming the oil up so it would read high temp and
low pressure. This kinda makes sense to me.
> Any comments on this thought? IS this possible?
>
Foaming MAY be a problem with the oil return to tank. This is why Rotax
recommends only a few oil brands and references.
On the other hand, it is not uncommon for the Rotax to exhibit lowish
oil pressures when hot.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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