Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:32 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol (Dave Austin)
2. 05:17 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol (Sjklerks@aol.com)
3. 11:22 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 (Hugh McKay III)
4. 12:19 PM - Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol (Roger Lee)
5. 12:21 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS / Fuel Pump Setup (Martin Pohl)
6. 12:23 PM - Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 (Roger Lee)
7. 12:27 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS / Fuel Pump Setup (Roger Lee)
8. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol (Roger Roy)
9. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 (Mike Crutchlow)
10. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol ()
11. 06:39 PM - Re: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 (Hugh McKay III)
12. 07:56 PM - Re: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 (John W. Cox)
13. 10:15 PM - Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol |
In Ontario the Shell Super 91 octane so far does not have any ethanol.
Regular is 10%, "silver" is 5%. I'm staying away from the ethanol for
now.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol |
Hi Dave, I have a letter from Shell and they are not going to put Ethanol in
their super 91 fuel here in Ontario.
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 |
Roger, Mike:
I understand what you both are saying, but how do we know that 87 Octane
unleaded gas at the pump has a RON of 91, and a MON of 83? I can have a RON
of 89 and a MON of 85 and still come up with an 87 Octane AKI. Under this
scenario, I am less than the minimum ROTAX required RON of 90, but still get
an 87 Octane AKI by the formula ROM plus MON divided by two (i.e. the
average of the two). Any explanation for this?
Hugh McKay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
RotaxEngines-List Digest Server
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:57 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07
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Total Messages Posted Sat 07/07/07: 4
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:23 AM - Fuel Octane for 912 Engine (Hugh McKay III)
2. 01:05 PM - Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine (Mike Crutchlow)
3. 05:01 PM - Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine (Roger Lee)
4. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol (Roger
Roy)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 11:23:51 AM PST US
From: "Hugh McKay III" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine
In a conversation with a friend of mine, who flys an Allegro 2000 with a 912
UL engine, he ask what fuel I used in my Allegro 2000 which also has a 912
UL. I told him I used unleaded 87 Octane (AKI=antiknock index) auto fuel. He
was surprised to hear that number, because he was under the understanding
that 93 octane (AKI) unleaded auto gas was the lowest octane that should be
used. The Rotax 912 Operators Manual states that the minimum RON (Research
Octane Number) for the 912 UL fuel is 90. Some time ago I calculated the RON
for 87 Octane (AKI) using the formula you see on the pumps at the gas
station, (AKI = RON + MON)
2
In the formula, I used a value of 82 for MON (Motor Octane Number), but for
the life of me I cannot remember how I got the value of 82 for MON. Anyway
using a value of 82 for MON for 87 AKI Octane gasoline in the formula you
end up with a RON Value of 92, which is slightly above the minimum of 90.
Am I doing this correctly, or am I way off? Does any one know what the real
MON number is for 87 AKI unleaded auto gasoline? Where can this number be
found? I cant seem to find it. What Octane (AKI) auto fuel are others using
in their 912 Uls?
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
N661WW
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 01:05:58 PM PST US
From: "Mike Crutchlow" <mcrutchlow@cogeco.ca>
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine
The factory Rotax engine brochure calls for a minimum octane rating of
MON 83 / RON 91 / AKI 87 to be used in the 912 UL. The operators manual
calls for RON 90 in the UL and RON 95 in the ULS.
Mike Crutchlow
Kitfox II
582 BH
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 05:01:50 PM PST US
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Hi Hugh,
The 80 hp 912 can use 87 octane, but the 100 hp 912 has to have 91 octane or
higher,
other wise you may be looking for trouble with your engine.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122683#122683
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 05:37:52 PM PST US
From: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol
I'm flying a Savannah with a Rotax 912S and using Sunoco 93 octane. It
seems to be working fine but have some reservations of using it due to
10% Ethanol added. There are some serious debates over this at my flying
field which leaves me confused. What say you all about this subject?
----- Original Message ----- aand
From: Roger Lee<mailto:ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
To:
rotaxengines-list@matronics.com<mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:59 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine
<ssadiver1@yahoo.com<mailto:ssadiver1@yahoo.com>>
Hi Hugh,
The 80 hp 912 can use 87 octane, but the 100 hp 912 has to have 91
octane or higher, other wise you may be looking for trouble with your
engine.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122683#122683<http://forums
matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122683#122683>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List<http://www.matronics
com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol |
Hi Savannah,
I had heard all the same rumors. Bottom line right from Eric Tucker at a Rotax
class was, don't be afraid to use it as some ares in the world that use Rotax
engines, like Europe, can run as much as 17%. It won't hurt the engine according
to Rotax's class. His only worry was that if you fly above 8K ft. and you
happen to have water in the ethanol that it might come out of solution and cause
a slug of water to hit the engine and stop it. That being said that is a lot
of water to come out of solution. Some call this phase seperation. Eric stated
that if you are going to be flying above the 8K mark then he would like to
see 100LL or no ethanol. I some parts of the US there is no ethanol in the fuel.
In Tucson, Az. we only have ethanol during the winter months. This time of
year it is hot here so I regularly fly above 8K without any issues with 91 oct
and so do quite a few others.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122746#122746
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912ULS / Fuel Pump Setup |
Answer from Zenith:
One reason is for the second pump to by-pass the first in case of failure in one.
Cheers Martin
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122748#122748
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 |
With an engine compression ratio of 10.5:1 just use the pump 91 octane. I would
worry about using the 87 octane and being even hotter during the summer months?
The 87 octane damage that may occure may not show up for a while, but when
it does it could be expensive.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122749#122749
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912ULS / Fuel Pump Setup |
Hi Martin,
When these pumps fail they tend to fail open. Either pump can pass fuel through
the other without any problem.
Your Zodiac has fuel in the wings, correct?
If it does, and if the mechanical Rotax pump failed it is set to fail open and
fuel will bypass the pump. You may not get full rpm and fuel pressure, but you
will be able to fly. The guys with low fuel tanks have a problem.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122750#122750
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol |
Hi Roger,
Well!!!!!! That's good news, hgells bells I rarely fly above 3,000ft
only because I'm in and around the Boston class B and TFR for a Nuke
plant, but I've also been informed that KPYM does sell fuel at the
airport without ethanol, so it seems that I do have choices. Rog how was
that Rotax engine course? where was it held and would you recommend it?
Cheers,
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122746#122746<http://forums
matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122746#122746>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List<http://www.matronics
com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List>
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 |
Hugh,
Your right that you can have different MON and RON values and still come
up with the same AKI number. I don't know how you can determine these
values other than asking the refining company. There is some information
on the Internet to explain how the differences come about but it doesn't
help us much. One of the sites is a British site at
http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/Reference/RONMONPON.html
Mike Crutchlow
Kitfox II
Rotax 582 BH
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol |
Hello Roger
"if you fly above 8K ft. and you happen to have water in the ethanol that
it might come out of solution and cause a slug of water to hit the engine
and stop it."
What if you added some Isopropynol to Mogas before flying to altitude to
keep any water in solution?
Ron Parigoris
Message 11
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| Subject: | RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 |
Mike:
Thanks Mike. I have been to that internet site and read the article. It
doesn't help much at all. I am going to try to contact some one at Rotax
about this. If ROTAX says that the 912 UL is set up to run US unleaded 87
Octane (AKI) gasoline, bought at the pump safely and with out problem, I'll
quit asking the question.
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike
Crutchlow
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs -
07/07/07
<mcrutchlow@cogeco.ca>
Hugh,
Your right that you can have different MON and RON values and still come
up with the same AKI number. I don't know how you can determine these
values other than asking the refining company. There is some information
on the Internet to explain how the differences come about but it doesn't
help us much. One of the sites is a British site at
http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/Reference/RONMONPON.html
Mike Crutchlow
Kitfox II
Rotax 582 BH
Message 12
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| Subject: | RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/07/07 |
>From the Rotax Certification Course:
Approved Fuels - MOGAS Unleaded 87AKI minimum for the 912UL, 912F and
912A
MOGAS Unleaded 91 AKI minimum for the 912S and
914.
MOGAS Regular has an 87AKI and a minimum MON of 82.5 by
combining 50% Regular with 50% AVGAS the MON will come in at
approximately 93.25MON. MON is not AKI, learn your AKI for the fuel in
your area.
Lead contamination when blending with AVGAS leads to heavy metal
deposits which require a top overhaul well before the TBO and affects
the clutch. If your fuel is running at or near 10% Methanol - do not
use it.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh
McKay III
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs -
07/07/07
<hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
Mike:
Thanks Mike. I have been to that internet site and read the article. It
doesn't help much at all. I am going to try to contact some one at Rotax
about this. If ROTAX says that the 912 UL is set up to run US unleaded
87
Octane (AKI) gasoline, bought at the pump safely and with out problem,
I'll
quit asking the question.
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike
Crutchlow
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: RE: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs -
07/07/07
<mcrutchlow@cogeco.ca>
Hugh,
Your right that you can have different MON and RON values and still come
up with the same AKI number. I don't know how you can determine these
values other than asking the refining company. There is some information
on the Internet to explain how the differences come about but it doesn't
help us much. One of the sites is a British site at
http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/Reference/RONMONPON.html
Mike Crutchlow
Kitfox II
Rotax 582 BH
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Octane for 912 Engine with Ethanol |
Hi Ron,
You will still have three different liquids to deal with and each will have different
partial and vapor pressures. This solution of liquids can still seperate
under the right conditions. You are better off using straight gas, either 91
octane or 100LL. The water will settle out of the gas to your low point bleed.
If I only had 91 octane with 5%-10% ethanol and wasn't flying at high altitude
I don't think I would worry to much. That being said, we don't have ethanol
in our gas in the summer here. It won't hurt your engine.
I took the class in California at CPS and Eric Tucker from Rotax taught the class.
I found it very informative. It was $299 if you are an EAA member or $399
for non-members.
Seems like some older 912 engine info and myths gets mixed with the newer versions
of the 912.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122812#122812
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