---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/20/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:10 AM - [Please Read] Why I Have A Fund Raiser... (Matt Dralle) 1. 02:29 AM - Re: 912 oil filters (Roger Roy) 2. 04:49 AM - Re: 912 oil filters912 oil filters912 oil filters912 oil filters (Thom Riddle) 3. 04:51 AM - Re: 912 oil filters (Robert Borger) 4. 05:52 AM - Fw: Re: Rotax Oil Filter Question (Robert Borger) 5. 06:04 AM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (Dave Austin) 6. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (Jack Kuehn) 7. 08:48 AM - Re: 912 oil filters (Roger Roy) 8. 02:06 PM - Re: Fw: Re: Rotax Oil Filter Question () 9. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (Noel Loveys) 10. 05:52 PM - Re: Rotax Oil Filter Question (Noel Loveys) 11. 09:16 PM - Re: 912 oil filters (Roger Lee) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:42 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RotaxEngines-List: [Please Read] Why I Have A Fund Raiser... 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If you just want to lurk a while for free, that's great and I encourage you to do so. If you use, appreciate, and receive value from these Lists, then please support them during the Annual List Fund Raiser! List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:40 AM PST US From: "Roger Roy" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters Hugh, WOW! that sounds like a years Oil Change filter supply for a year. A couple of the chapter members are using WIX 51056 on their Rotax 912 UL 80hp for a couple of years now with no problems. With the cost of fuel I would suspect prices will definitely skyrockett and many of us will go to the automotive filter for sure. Bob's website has info that sort of opened my eyes the statement that damage to engine/oil system will depleat in approx. 30 seconds RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugh To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:52 PM Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters Bob: I must disagree with you on the price of the Rotax Filter and the Purolator 1 PL10241 Filter. By the time I get the Rotax filter from Lockwood Aviation with normal shipping the bill to my credit card is $31.33. This is outrageous! The Purolator 1 is only $5.88, and the store is right around the corner. I have not used the Purolator filter yet and am getting conflicting information about the two filters. I am trying to find out the real differences in the two filters to justify$31.33 vs. $5.88. Cane anyone else add to this discussion? Hugh McKay in NC Allegro 2000 Rotax 912 UL N661WW ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BOB MCMILLIN Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 7:16 AM To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters I do not know by pass psi rating but can is rated for 500 psi burst . is a bigger filter and gives no oil pressure fluctuations like some other automotive filters i.e. bypass sticking or to high or low psi setting, price is the same as the rotax filter its just available locally. bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugh To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:50 PM Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters Bob: Your comment is well taken, however, you and Roger Lee seem to be on opposite sides of the fence on the matter of using automotive oil filters for the Rotax 912 UL. Check the Archive for this subject on this forum or drop him a note directly. The date of his comments is 12/29/06 on the Rotax engine forum. In his comments he states that the Purolator 1, PL10241 has a bypass rating of 12 psi. I do not know what the by-pass relief valve setting in psi is on the Rotax filter. Can you shed more light on this for all of us? Hugh McKay in NC Allegro 2000 912 UL N661WW ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rlborger Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:24 PM To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters Jack, It's a serious No-No. You do NOT EVER want to use an automotive oil filter in the Rotax engine. The issue isn't filtration but pressure relief valve setting. Automotive filters have a much lower pressure relief valve which will allow dirty oil back into the engine before filter change time. Resulting damage will make a real Rotax oil filter seem dirt cheap. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Nov 17, 2007, at 8:13 PM, Jack Kuehn wrote: > What's the latest on using automotive oil filters on a 912UL? Is there a K&N that is of high enough quality and proper fit? Jack http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?R otaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhref="http://forums.matronics. com">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?R otaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:50 AM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters912 oil filters912 oil filters912 oil filters Hugh, Since our Allegro is certificated as SLSA we have to follow Rotax recommendations to the letter or risk losing the Special LSA. Therefore we use the Rotax filters. To make it more economical I shop around to all the suppliers and ask for shipping charges when on the phone with them. I also buy 2 filters at a time to save on shipping. Sometimes you can catch them on sale and get a decent price. I don't recall who I bought the last two from but it was not Lockwood and I didn't pay $15 for shipping, that is certain. Also, when shopping around use the phone because some of these suppliers have a low ball price in their on-line catalog and when you get the product the invoice is much higher. You complain and they tell you they just got a price increase and had not had time to update the on-line catalog. Good story but then a month later the low- ball price is still there. Thom in Buffalo ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:25 AM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters Roger, It don't believe that it is in any of the SIs or SBs from Rotax. I don't think it is a Rotax recommendation. I believe it is a recommendation specifically from Lockwood. The folks at Lockwood have seen a LOT of engines come back to them for maintenance or repair. They noticed that folks who dumped the oil out of the bottom of the oil reservoir for an oil change don't clean out the reservoir. This is especially true of the folks who have installed a quick drain on the bottom of the reservoir. And even more necessary if you regularly use 100LL. The gunk and lead residue should be cleaned out of the reservoir at each oil change anyway. So why not just remove the reservoir full of oil and get it all away from the aircraft to dump and clean. Lockwood also recommend that the oil reservoir and all components be "clocked." That is, they should be marked so that it is assembled and oriented with all components placed in the same position. I'm writing this at work. When I get home this afternoon, I'll go back to my class notes and see if I have left anything out. Oh yes, DON"T GET THE IN AND OUT LINES MIXED UP WHEN YOU PUT THE RESERVOIR BACK IN! This is one area where there could be some improvement. There should be different fittings on the IN and OUT lines on the reservoir so that one can not cross-up the lines. The results of such a mix-up is disastrous to both the engine and pocket book. Check six, Bob On Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 12:10AM, "Roger Roy" wrote: >Bob, I did take time to view all 145 pics in your Lockwood school album very interesting and an excellent job with the camera. One thing that sort of raised the hair on the back of my neck was the fact that a statement made as to the removal, disassembly, cleaning and reinstallation of that oil tank. Unless I missed it I checked ROAN's SB and SL as well as the line maintenance manual and no where could I find that task, can you shed some light on that? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:35 AM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Fwd: RE: Rotax Oil Filter Question Hugh & the rest of the Rotax crowd, Here's the reply from Dean, the instructor at Lockwood Aviation along with the question I posed. FWIW, I also have done like Thom and ordered my oil filters in batches to minimize the shipping costs and amortize it over a number of filters. Check six, Bob Borger >From: "Dean Vogel" >To: "'rlborger'" >Date: November 20, 2007 07:34:12 AM CST >Subject: RE: Rotax Oil Filter Question > >No I can't, the one thing I know is that the pressure is about 25% higher on >the Rotax filter than on the normal automotive filter. So if you need to be >at 120F oil temperature before you can be sure the Rotax filter is running >filtered oil through the system, what temperature do you have to be at with >the automotive filters? > >Thanks for helping to keep people safe. >Dean > >-----Original Message----- >From: rlborger [mailto:rlborger@mac.com] >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:53 PM >To: Dean Vogel >Cc: rlborger >Subject: Rotax Oil Filter Question > >Dean, > >There's a thread on the Aeroelectric Rotax Forum concerning the use >of automotive oil filters on the Rotax engine. I posted a comment >that the use of automotive filters was a bad idea and explained that >the bypass pressure was lower on the automotive filters than with the >Rotax filter. Folks have come back and asked what the bypass >pressure was on the Rotax filter. I've checked my notes from class >and I did not make note of it if the information was presented. Can >you provide the bypass pressure for the Rotax filter? > >Thanks, >Bob Borger >Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S >http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL >(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch >system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, >Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar >in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear >complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for >testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop >installed. Electrical complete, except for some final testing. Fuel >system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door >Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 >Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived >and is being installed. >3705 Lynchburg Dr. >Corinth, TX 76208 >Home: 940-497-2123 >Cel: 817-992-1117 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:07 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 oil filters Roger, How do I get to your post? Were you recommending certain filters? Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:21 AM PST US From: "Jack Kuehn" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 oil filters The oil filter question is not a simple one! I know that Challenger sells one for the 912 that is supposed to be better than the Rotax filter, and that is what I have used for the last 70 hours, but I wonder why the K&N is not just as good. It is not about price so much as availability. Buying local is so much better than mail order! There is an accident report on the FAA records of a 912 that lost its oil because the Fram filter has a slightly different thread and it came off. All filters must be wired...easy to do with a big hose clamp around the filter, wired to the engine. I have this info on bypass pressures from someone on the Sky Ranger list. 1. Purolator Pure One PL10241 [u]Best[/u] Synthetic medium and more than Mahle, 3.3" long bypass starts at 12 psi 2. Mobile-1 M1-102 Synthetic medium and more than Mahle bypass starts at 12psi Mahle OC 11 which is the Rotax 825-701 2.44" long Good filter bypass starts at 13 psi, less filter sq. in. surface medium than Pure One or Fram 3. Fram Tough Guard TG3614 standard paper type medium, 3.3" long bypass starts at 12 psi No, 1psi does not make a difference and each filter varies slightly anyway. On Nov 20, 2007 7:03 AM, Dave Austin wrote: > > Roger, > How do I get to your post? Were you recommending certain filters? > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII > > (406)273-6801 (406)546-1086 cell jack.kuehn@gmail.com (406)273-2563 fax ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:19 AM PST US From: "Roger Roy" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters Bob, Thanks for the comeback. I have a Savannah (CH-701 look alike) and I do have a drain at the bottom of the oil tank. I do not use AVGAS and my oil gets changed every 25 hours. So for me most my oil changes might be a waste of time and money as the oil always looks fresh, but it gives me the opportunity to check things out under the "hood". But I do concur with tank removal, cleaning, indexing the subassemblies and reinstallation but in my case that will be an item added to my Conditional Annual Inspection thanks again Bob, have a great Turkey day RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Borger To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:50 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters > Roger, It don't believe that it is in any of the SIs or SBs from Rotax. I don't think it is a Rotax recommendation. I believe it is a recommendation specifically from Lockwood. The folks at Lockwood have seen a LOT of engines come back to them for maintenance or repair. They noticed that folks who dumped the oil out of the bottom of the oil reservoir for an oil change don't clean out the reservoir. This is especially true of the folks who have installed a quick drain on the bottom of the reservoir. And even more necessary if you regularly use 100LL. The gunk and lead residue should be cleaned out of the reservoir at each oil change anyway. So why not just remove the reservoir full of oil and get it all away from the aircraft to dump and clean. Lockwood also recommend that the oil reservoir and all components be "clocked." That is, they should be marked so that it is assembled and oriented with all components placed in the same position. I'm writing this at work. When I get home this afternoon, I'll go back to my class notes and see if I have left anything out. Oh yes, DON"T GET THE IN AND OUT LINES MIXED UP WHEN YOU PUT THE RESERVOIR BACK IN! This is one area where there could be some improvement. There should be different fittings on the IN and OUT lines on the reservoir so that one can not cross-up the lines. The results of such a mix-up is disastrous to both the engine and pocket book. Check six, Bob On Tuesday, November 20, 2007, at 12:10AM, "Roger Roy" > wrote: >Bob, I did take time to view all 145 pics in your Lockwood school album very interesting and an excellent job with the camera. One thing that sort of raised the hair on the back of my neck was the fact that a statement made as to the removal, disassembly, cleaning and reinstallation of that oil tank. Unless I missed it I checked ROAN's SB and SL as well as the line maintenance manual and no where could I find that task, can you shed some light on that? http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Fwd: RE: Rotax Oil Filter Question From: Curious question. I plan on using Rotax oil filters, this way if there is ever a change or recall, I am not the one to find out. The curious question is what exactly is the problem with sending unfiltered oil through your engine? There is a screen in the oil tank? I owned a 1948 Cessna 170 with a C-145 (just bout same as O-300) for 19 years, and it didn't have an oil filter, just a "snake catcher" with holes like 1/8". Never had a failure, and we majored motor within first few years, no major wear or damage, and today the new owner is 3/4 the way to major again with no major troubles. I have heard also that the screen in the oil tank gets clogged especial when using 100LL, but that happens with a Rotax filter?? This should be a reasonable snake catcher? I also own 2 1957 BMW Isettas, they have no oil filters either. (Is it debris that will trash oil pump? Debris that will clog oil passages (where)? Debris that will collapse lifters? Just curious, I would think that Rotax would have sized the screen mesh in oil tank to prevent? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I also own 3 early 90s Volvo turbo wagons. It just so happens Volvo uses Mann as Mfg for their filters. Early on I sawed opened Volvo and other filters, Mann was far superior to others but felt the same and looked the same. The bypass on some were poor at best. I only use Mann filters purchased by the dozen. I read very careful, and looked in detail at my 1983 Volvo turbo wagon that used Garette air cooled turbo that is very close to 914 Rotax. I know I am going to get flamed on this one, but my findings were it is in your best interest to fill to top the oil filter before you install it! Many who have never tried it think the entire contents will come pouring out. "NOT". Slight bit of finesse and you will not spill a drop. Uncoordinated and only a few drops. That will be on top of the many drops that happened when unscrewing filter, unless you made hole and drained first. It is surprising just how long it takes to fill filter completely full, it keeps on absorbing. For a neat freak in an imposable cowled aeroplane, where every drop is a problem, fill filter and freeze it, install quick with no drops. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:47 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 oil filters I send and receive all posts through Microsoft Outlook. Never a problem with time outs and spell check works too. :-) Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Roger Lee > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:40 PM > To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 oil filters > > > > > Hi All, > > I just typed a nice long explanation on filters and this > website timed me out and I lost it all. When I calm down I > may retype it. In the mean time look at: > > http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/filters.html > > There is some misinformation on some of the post. Just > hearsay and no sound research. I think we can put all that in > persprective. > > I'll be back. I think this time I'll type it under Word and > attach it. This is the second time this site dumped my work. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147261#147261 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:52 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: Rotax Oil Filter Question I've cleaned the screens on several lycos and changed the ones that had filters too. The only difference I could see is the convenience factor of having the filter. I found the screens always dropped quite a bit of oil and there was nothing to do but sop it up. The screens were really only thee to pick up large metal particles... If you found any you were probably already too late. With the filters part of the job was to do an autopsy on the filter.... Also looking for particulate glad to say we never found any but then again the engines I worked on were relatively new. I expect the Rotax engine wants the filter because next to the lycoming it is a scalpel vs. a battle axe scenario with the Rotax being the scalpel. The Rotax is oil and liquid cooled so it won't expand an change shape as much as the lycoming.... It also revs a lot higher which can put additional stresses on parts and oil alike. In the near future I will be installing a low time 912 into my plane. I expect to purchase a half dozen or so filters to have them on hand. If Rotax requires those filters and only those filters that's good enough for me.... It's like one of my instructors used to say.... Pay me now or pay me later. I've been around long enough to have people pay me later... I'd prefer to be in a different boat. Noel P.S. Sorry Ron... No flame here but I hope you changed to focus of the thread. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:34 PM > To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Fwd: RE: Rotax Oil Filter Question > > > > Curious question. > > I plan on using Rotax oil filters, this way if there is ever > a change or > recall, I am not the one to find out. > > The curious question is what exactly is the problem with sending > unfiltered oil through your engine? There is a screen in the oil tank? > > I owned a 1948 Cessna 170 with a C-145 (just bout same as > O-300) for 19 > years, and it didn't have an oil filter, just a "snake > catcher" with holes > like 1/8". Never had a failure, and we majored motor within first few > years, no major wear or damage, and today the new owner is > 3/4 the way to > major again with no major troubles. > > I have heard also that the screen in the oil tank gets > clogged especial > when using 100LL, but that happens with a Rotax filter?? This > should be a > reasonable snake catcher? > > I also own 2 1957 BMW Isettas, they have no oil filters either. > > (Is it debris that will trash oil pump? Debris that will clog > oil passages > (where)? Debris that will collapse lifters? Just curious, I > would think > that Rotax would have sized the screen mesh in oil tank to prevent? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > I also own 3 early 90s Volvo turbo wagons. It just so happens > Volvo uses > Mann as Mfg for their filters. Early on I sawed opened Volvo and other > filters, Mann was far superior to others but felt the same > and looked the > same. The bypass on some were poor at best. I only use Mann filters > purchased by the dozen. > > I read very careful, and looked in detail at my 1983 Volvo turbo wagon > that used Garette air cooled turbo that is very close to 914 > Rotax. I know > I am going to get flamed on this one, but my findings were it > is in your > best interest to fill to top the oil filter before you > install it! Many > who have never tried it think the entire contents will come > pouring out. > "NOT". Slight bit of finesse and you will not spill a drop. > Uncoordinated > and only a few drops. That will be on top of the many drops > that happened > when unscrewing filter, unless you made hole and drained first. It is > surprising just how long it takes to fill filter completely > full, it keeps > on absorbing. For a neat freak in an imposable cowled aeroplane, where > every drop is a problem, fill filter and freeze it, install > quick with no > drops. > > Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:31 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 oil filters From: "Roger Lee" Here's my reply in an attachment. At least I got to type it out and send it this time. [Laughing] It's a Word document. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. 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