Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:46 AM - Re: 912 oil filters (Thom Riddle)
2. 08:07 AM - Re: 912 oil filters (Roger Lee)
3. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (Dave Austin)
4. 09:22 AM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (Peter Jeffers)
5. 09:47 AM - Fw: Re: Rotax Oil Filter Question (rampil)
6. 11:21 AM - Re: 912 oil filters (Roger Lee)
7. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (Roger Roy)
8. 04:15 PM - Re: 912 oil filters (Roger Lee)
9. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (Noel Loveys)
10. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (rlborger)
11. 06:41 PM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (Noel Loveys)
12. 06:43 PM - Re: 912 oil filters (Roger Lee)
13. 07:10 PM - Re: Re: 912 oil filters (rlborger)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
I can't let Dean Vogel's response to the question from Bob Borger go by without
being contested.
What exactly does the 120F oil temperature minimum before going to full power have
to do with oil filter bypass pressure???? The answer: Almost NOTHING!
The 120F oil temperature minimum is to prevent the operator from risking damage
to the engine by going to take-off power while the engine is cold. The oil pressure
by-pass valve is to permit oil to flow to the engine if the filter is clogged
from debris or sludge. One has almost nothing at all to do with the other.
My A&P I/A partner in our Allegro attended Dean's 4-stroke class last April. It
took about 1 1/2 hours into Dean's class (last April) before we realized that
this guy does not know much about engines. He regurgitates what he is told. It
is my understanding that he is an electrical engineer with zero mechanical background
other than what he has "learned" (memorized?) from Lockwood. When you
ask him a question he has not already been told the answer to, if he is smart
he will say I don't know, which is a fair and proper answer. But when he makes
up stuff based on suppositions without understanding what he is talking about,
he has gone too far.
That said, this does not mean that everything that is taught in his class is not
worthwhile and good information for 912 operators but if he goes outside of
the class syllabus, he may be making stuff up on the fly, like linking the minimum
oil temp to oil filter by-pass pressure. The only linkage there is is a minor
one. That is, when oil is cold its viscosity is higher than when warm and
oil pressure will be higher than when warm. BUT this difference in viscosity
(and pressure) between cold and hot oil (especially in multi-weight oils) is not
sufficient to make a difference in oil filter by-pass valve operation unless
the filter is nearly clogged anyway. That will only happen if the recommended
oil and filter change interval and tank cleaning have been ignored for quite
a long time.
Thom in Buffalo
FAA Powerplant Mechanic
Retired Mechanical Engineer
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.
- Aesop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147677#147677
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Hi Thom,
I couldn't agree more with the statement that quite a few people teach or give
out info that has been handed down from person to person and no real science to
back it up. I know we all like to believe our teachers are always right, but
we sometimes have to question where did they get their info and challenge that
sometimes. I do in classes I take and I expect that in classes I teach. When
I teach and don't know an answer I say so then go look it up or ask if anyone
in the class has any insight. Some people who attend classes are as sharp or
more informed than the teacher. I have backed teachers in the corner with oil
filter or technical questions and they finally have to break down and just say
that was what I was told.
I agree that an oil temp of 120F has nothing to do with the bypass pressure. This
is just the temp that Rotax specifies before running the engine to full operating
rpm. Like I have said if your bypass is operating then you have bigger
issues.
I wonder if Toyota would make such a big stink if someone used a Rotax oil filter
on one of their cars? It does fit several Toyota models. That's what the other
filters in my last post fit along with a few other foreign cars. Hope they
aren't too mad about the bypass opening at start up that no one told them about.
:D
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147699#147699
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
I've used the Toyota V6 oil filter for 14 years on my 912. Not using a drop
of oil yet. 650 hours. Started doing that because I had a V6 Toyota!
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Hi Thom,
As one retired engineer to another my only comment is that when the engine
is cold the oil is more viscous and risk associated with applying higher
power settings is excessive oil px. Excess pressure is limited by the oil
pressure relief valve (which is part of the engine oil px circuit and not
the filter).
The pressure relief valve in the filter opens in response to a high pressure
drop over the filter element and simply bypasses the element. It does
little to the engine oil px itself. Indeed, if anything, the engine oil px
may increase slightly when the by pass valve opens.
Could this be where confusion comes from.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thom
Riddle
Sent: 21 November 2007 13:44
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 oil filters
I can't let Dean Vogel's response to the question from Bob Borger go by
without being contested.
What exactly does the 120F oil temperature minimum before going to full
power have to do with oil filter bypass pressure???? The answer: Almost
NOTHING!
The 120F oil temperature minimum is to prevent the operator from risking
damage to the engine by going to take-off power while the engine is cold.
The oil pressure by-pass valve is to permit oil to flow to the engine if the
filter is clogged from debris or sludge. One has almost nothing at all to do
with the other.
My A&P I/A partner in our Allegro attended Dean's 4-stroke class last April.
It took about 1 1/2 hours into Dean's class (last April) before we realized
that this guy does not know much about engines. He regurgitates what he is
told. It is my understanding that he is an electrical engineer with zero
mechanical background other than what he has "learned" (memorized?) from
Lockwood. When you ask him a question he has not already been told the
answer to, if he is smart he will say I don't know, which is a fair and
proper answer. But when he makes up stuff based on suppositions without
understanding what he is talking about, he has gone too far.
That said, this does not mean that everything that is taught in his class is
not worthwhile and good information for 912 operators but if he goes outside
of the class syllabus, he may be making stuff up on the fly, like linking
the minimum oil temp to oil filter by-pass pressure. The only linkage there
is is a minor one. That is, when oil is cold its viscosity is higher than
when warm and oil pressure will be higher than when warm. BUT this
difference in viscosity (and pressure) between cold and hot oil (especially
in multi-weight oils) is not sufficient to make a difference in oil filter
by-pass valve operation unless the filter is nearly clogged anyway. That
will only happen if the recommended oil and filter change interval and tank
cleaning have been ignored for quite a long time.
Thom in Buffalo
FAA Powerplant Mechanic
Retired Mechanical Engineer
--------
Thom in Buffalo
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.
- Aesop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147677#147677
17:44
17:44
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| Subject: | Fwd: RE: Rotax Oil Filter Question |
Ron,
Recall for a moment that Issettas are not a good model of the Rotax
9xx.
Recall that that the Rotax has tiny oil galleries all over for cooling
The Rotax has hydraulic lifters with tiny oil channels
The Rotax cylinder heads are tempered aluminum alloy which will
soften dramatically if overheated. Clogged channels hurt engine,
just like at all the precautions against air bubbles in the galleries!
There are other reasons as well.
I am sure you will not unfilter your nice unflown 914 when the time comes,
so it doesn't seem reasonable to frame your question in such a way as
to suggest it to others,
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147723#147723
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Hi Guys,
Straight viscosity oil acts differently in hot and cold than a multi viscosity.
The multi viscosity oil has and additive to give it its unique properties when
cold and to change when it's hot. Multi viscosity oil has to thin in colder
engine climates and thicken in hotter climates. Just look at the use charts for
oils and climate temps.
That's why some in very cold climates may use a 5-20w verses someone in a hotter
climate using a 20-50w. 5w oil works better in colder climates. In the older
days when people would use just a straight weight Dino based oil like a 30w and
they lived in Montana and it was the middle of the winter and they didn't have
a block heater they couldn't even get the engine to turn over. Todays synthetics
and good multi viscosity oils don't have as big an issue with the cold
as the older straight weight Dino based oils did of yesteryear.
That said some experts recommend that nothing less than a 10-40w be used in anything
that uses the engine oil in the transmission. A 10-40w oil can get down
to some pretty cold temps., at least for this Arizona boy. Some even recommend
20-50w if used in both. To each his own on that subject.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147749#147749
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Well Dave that is one opener, The Rotax has been around for 14
years????? It wasn't long ago that the 2 cycle 532 was the best they had
until the aircraft designated 582 came along than finally the 9XX
series. This is one great list because I learned something today, thanks
RJ
To:
rotaxengines-list@matronics.com<mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 oil filters
<daveaustin2@primus.ca<mailto:daveaustin2@primus.ca>>
I've used the Toyota V6 oil filter for 14 years on my 912. Not using
a drop
of oil yet. 650 hours. Started doing that because I had a V6 Toyota!
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List<http://www.matronics
com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
The 912 has been around since about late 1989. As they say the rest is history.
I believe Rotax pumps out approximately 6500-7000 engines a year. I don't think
any other aircraft mfg. is producing that many a year.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147793#147793
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Roger:
Considering the auto filters by pass at a slightly lower pressure and the
automotive oil probably gets much more of a beating than the aviation
application. Do you really think the Toyota engineers don't know about the
bypass opening on start up?? Especially on all cars sold North of the 49th
in the winter months.
After all that's why the by pass is there.. To allow oil to flow and not
blow some other component because of high pressure. I have seen an oil
cooler that was on an IO-540 after it ruptured on a sub zero start up. They
didn't have the pressure by pass oil cooler on that engine and it became the
weakest link.... D...messy too.
Noel
Hope they aren't too mad about the bypass opening at start up that no one
told them about. :D
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Thom,
The only part of your response I will strenuously argue with it the
"making it up" comment. If Dean did not know the answer to a
question, he admitted it without hesitation and went to what ever
source was necessary to find the proper answer which was provided at
the next possible class opportunity.
Dean is an engineer, former USAF pilot and test pilot, test pilot and
engineer for one of those plastic aircraft (I don't remember if it
was Cirrus or Columbia) prior to joining Lockwood. He gave us his
complete background when he began the class. He admitted that he was
new to the Rotax and was continuing to learn about the engine as time
and his class experience went on. I found him honest and straight
forward. And I wouldn't expect him to teach anything that is
contrary to Rotax requirements. He will teach straight by the Rotax
books.
Bob Borger
On Nov 21, 2007, at 7:44 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
> <riddletr@gmail.com>
>
> I can't let Dean Vogel's response to the question from Bob Borger
> go by without being contested.
>
> What exactly does the 120F oil temperature minimum before going to
> full power have to do with oil filter bypass pressure???? The
> answer: Almost NOTHING!
>
> The 120F oil temperature minimum is to prevent the operator from
> risking damage to the engine by going to take-off power while the
> engine is cold. The oil pressure by-pass valve is to permit oil to
> flow to the engine if the filter is clogged from debris or sludge.
> One has almost nothing at all to do with the other.
>
> My A&P I/A partner in our Allegro attended Dean's 4-stroke class
> last April. It took about 1 1/2 hours into Dean's class (last
> April) before we realized that this guy does not know much about
> engines. He regurgitates what he is told. It is my understanding
> that he is an electrical engineer with zero mechanical background
> other than what he has "learned" (memorized?) from Lockwood. When
> you ask him a question he has not already been told the answer to,
> if he is smart he will say I don't know, which is a fair and proper
> answer. But when he makes up stuff based on suppositions without
> understanding what he is talking about, he has gone too far.
>
> That said, this does not mean that everything that is taught in his
> class is not worthwhile and good information for 912 operators but
> if he goes outside of the class syllabus, he may be making stuff up
> on the fly, like linking the minimum oil temp to oil filter by-pass
> pressure. The only linkage there is is a minor one. That is, when
> oil is cold its viscosity is higher than when warm and oil pressure
> will be higher than when warm. BUT this difference in viscosity
> (and pressure) between cold and hot oil (especially in multi-weight
> oils) is not sufficient to make a difference in oil filter by-pass
> valve operation unless the filter is nearly clogged anyway. That
> will only happen if the recommended oil and filter change interval
> and tank cleaning have been ignored for quite a long time.
>
> Thom in Buffalo
> FAA Powerplant Mechanic
> Retired Mechanical Engineer
>
> --------
> Thom in Buffalo
> N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
> N197BG FS1/447
> --------------------
> We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.
> - Aesop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147677#147677
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Roger:
That was very well written. I learned a lot from that post.
There is just one thing though.....(darn!) I doubt there is a car in the
lower 48 that the filter by passes on every start up. This far North when
on a cold frosty morning when the temperature is close to 0F and the car has
about three thousand miles on the oil and you can feel the strain of the
starter motor as the engine grinds over you can bet the filter by pass will
open and will stay open until the viscosity of the oil decreases. As you
said this is not an instantaneous thing the pressure takes time to build up.
It's just that it continues to build for as long as several minutes. This
is a good reason why not to start your engine and drive off on a cold winter
morning. A couple of minutes at the idle ( fast idle FI) can be a real
engine saver and allow the oil a chance to circulate.
I used to live in Labrador. That was over thirty years ago when the earth
was still green. The major problems we had in those days were automatic
transmission oil becoming too viscous to work properly and sometimes
hydraulic fluid in brake slave cylinders would make the foot break on a car
feel like stepping on something the consistency of a brick. Manual
transmissions were sometimes all but impossible to get in gear and you could
time the clutch engaging with a calendar if it had a hydraulic actuator. If
you were fortunate enough to get your brakes to apply you might have to wait
five minutes for them to release. A few minutes with a partially applied
brake would generate enough heat to free up the brakes again. No one, and I
mean no one was dumb enough to ever apply the hand brake in the winter!
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Roger Lee
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:46 AM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 oil filters
>
>
> <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
>
> Here's my reply in an attachment. At least I got to type it
> out and send it this time. [Laughing]
>
> It's a Word document.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147643#147643
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/files/oil_filters_123.doc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Hi Noel,
I agree that under adverse conditions any thing can happen, but under our usual
or normal circumstances what would happen to one filter would have probably happened
to the other. I believe automotive oil gets dirtier faster because of
all the types of driving that is done in and around a city. Our aircraft engines
don't see the stop and go, as much throttle use and we tend to change oil more
regularly than some in cars.
50w oil will flow through these filters so why would 20w cause a bypass to open.
Nothing is blocking the upstream or downstream part of the filter medium and
at our start up oil pressure and high rpm's are not instantaneous. I think some
people just look for issues that aren't really there to make what they have
heard sound true or at least reasonable.
We do need shear additives for our Rotax engines just like motorcycles do for the
gearbox. The gearbox beats on the oil. Not to make it dirtier, that's just
carbon from the combustion process that is being removed and that means the oil
is doing its job. The issue with our oil in the gearbox is that the better the
shear additives the less an oil will lose some of its viscosity and gearbox
protection. Just because an oil is black doesn't mean it is not doing a good
job lubricating. To really see if your oil is breaking down it needs to be sent
to a lab. We change ours so often I seriously doubt anyone of us is having an
oil breakdown problem. Unless my temps in Tucson, Az get below 20F I use 20-50w
motorcycle Amsoil all year. More for the gearbox than the engine and we get
pretty warm in the summer. Our normal winter month temps are in the 30's for
the lows, some in the 40's and some in the high 20's.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147815#147815
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| Subject: | Re: 912 oil filters |
Roger,
I too agree that quite a few people teach or give out info that has
been handed down from person to person with no real science or
engineering to back it up. That's why there's a lot of very bad
information floating around the web about the care and feeding of the
Rotax engines. Mostly from well meaning people with a lot of
experience dealing with Lycoming and Continental and automotive
engines. The Rotax isn't your grandpa's LyCosarus and requires some
significantly different care and feeding. That's why I went to the
Rotax course.
As for Toyota making a stink about using a Rotax oil filter, yup,
probably would if something went wrong in the engine. Probably void
your warranty.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
On Nov 21, 2007, at 10:05 AM, Roger Lee wrote:
> <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Thom,
>
> I couldn't agree more with the statement that quite a few people
> teach or give out info that has been handed down from person to
> person and no real science to back it up. I know we all like to
> believe our teachers are always right, but we sometimes have to
> question where did they get their info and challenge that
> sometimes. I do in classes I take and I expect that in classes I
> teach. When I teach and don't know an answer I say so then go look
> it up or ask if anyone in the class has any insight. Some people
> who attend classes are as sharp or more informed than the teacher.
> I have backed teachers in the corner with oil filter or technical
> questions and they finally have to break down and just say that was
> what I was told.
>
> I agree that an oil temp of 120F has nothing to do with the bypass
> pressure. This is just the temp that Rotax specifies before running
> the engine to full operating rpm. Like I have said if your bypass
> is operating then you have bigger issues.
>
>
> I wonder if Toyota would make such a big stink if someone used a
> Rotax oil filter on one of their cars? It does fit several Toyota
> models. That's what the other filters in my last post fit along
> with a few other foreign cars. Hope they aren't too mad about the
> bypass opening at start up that no one told them about. :D
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=147699#147699
>
>
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