Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:33 AM - Re: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (george may)
2. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Noel Loveys)
3. 08:20 AM - Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Roger Lee)
4. 09:13 AM - Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Rich L)
5. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Noel Loveys)
6. 10:12 AM - Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Roger Lee)
7. 01:43 PM - Re: Rotax 912 (Thom Riddle)
8. 03:04 PM - Re: Rotax 912 (Tommy Walker)
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| Subject: | Re: True Rotax brand oil filters |
Roger--
Thanks for the psi explanation. Looks like I'll begin using other than Rota
x filters
George May
601XL 912s
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| Subject: | Re: True Rotax brand oil filters |
Roger:
For the most part I agree with your post, except the part about the oil
needing to be 1000 hr or ten years old. When mineral oil gets cold it
thickens. This is something to keep in mind regardless of what kind of
aircraft engine you are operating in freezing temperatures. Also the filter
is not the only thing you have to watch out for or put a bypass on. On one
occasion in Goose Bay, Labrador a couple of guys flying a couple of
Aero-Commanders were over nighting on their way to Europe. In the thick of
the Labrador frost the next morning they were offered a hot start on all
four engines (for a reasonable price). They pooh-poohed the idea and went
to start the engines. They never got to the part where they released the
brakes. All four oil coolers blew and both planes were covered in oil.
Talk about a mess!!! Luckily there is no EPA at the airport in Goose Bay.
Three days and four coolers and a boatload of dollars later they finally got
underway. Not everyone runs synthetic oil, which in those temperatures can
thicken enough to open a bypass, so a good bypass is something to be
considered. Especially if there is a chance you can experience temperatures
not that far below the freezing point of water. When the going really gets
rough, operators of piston aircraft actually drain the oil bring it and the
battery into the house for the night. Many even then will have engine
compartment heaters to keep the oil from gelling as it is poured back into
the plane or have the oil almost boiling hot before putting it back.
Turbine engines, which use synthetic oil, have by pass valves on everything
that are also wired to the enunciator panel. With some engines, in the
coldest conditions, the panel will "light up" shortly after starting the
engine. When the engine is up to temp the switches on the bypass valves can
be reset.
On the topic of synthetic oils. They are really slippery, How slippery?
So slippery they will completely drip off internal engine components
removing any protection from corrosion. It's hard to recommend this oil to
people who don't run their engines every day. The long and the short of it
is: Synthetic oil is a fantastic thing for some users but will bring only
heartache to weekend flyers. Even on bad flying days the engines with the
synthetic oil should be run a few minutes to maintain the protection of the
oil.
To take the strain off your oil filter bypass, keep your rpm to a minimum
until your engine temps have stabilized.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 11:52 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters
Hi Guys,
The Rotax filter bypass pressure is .9-1.1 bar or 13-15.9psi.
The Fram Tough Guard and Pure One filter along with many other American
filter bypass pressure is 12-15 psi.
This should only come into play when the upstream pressure becomes at least
12psi different from the downstream pressure at the filter. This should not
happen unless you have some serious issues with a clogged filter and if you
clog a filter you have some serious engine issues or haven't changed your
oil in the last ten years or 1000 hrs. which ever came first. :D
The Fram Tough Guard and the Pure One have more filter medium because they
are 1/2" longer. The Pure One has a better efficiency rating and three
filter mediums and not just one medium like the Rotax or Fram Tough Guard.
Some say oil filter's actually bypasses at start up. These filters can flow
6 gal. a minute and the Rotax engine circulates about 4 gals a minute when
up at normal running rpm's and not at a start up rpm or idle.
Full synthetic or semi synthetic is very pourable at most of our normal
daily temps. I find it hard to believe that at start up when you aren't
flowing 4 gals. a minute and there is no pressure restriction that the
filters actually bypass oil. I have heard the people say they do, but I'm
not a believer.
When I did my research the oil filter engineer's (not the sales reps) said
the the one psi difference is not an exact science and that everyones can
very a psi, even Rotax's filter.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177790#177790
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| Subject: | Re: True Rotax brand oil filters |
Hi Noel,
The ten year or 1000hr. remark was only a joke. Smiley face was attached. :D
The other qualifier I added was "normal daily temps." Not the harder cold day temps.
in some parts of the country during winter. Synthetic oil is pourable down
to -45F. If you are in the 20F range you should never have an issue. If you
use the appropriate viscosity oil in the winter months you should not have any
issues. Most of us here are flying either Experimental, Amateur built or LSA
aircraft and don't have to run dino based oil although regular oil is really
not that bad when changed and used properly. Semi synthetic and dino based oils
will suspend the lead in 100LL where a full synthetic will let the lead fall
out of the oil. The semi synthetics and full synthetics do a much better job
of protecting the engine on the extreme sides of the engine run parameters. (i.e.
very hot or very cold) In Arizona we don't have so much of the cold as we
do the hot. I use synthetic in my cars, but not because of a longer advertised
drain interval, but for the better protection while running.
We will have to disagree on the synthetic oil draining off parts while sitting.
I think just the opposite.
Most of us are old enough on this forum to remember an old Mobile One TV commercial.
When they had a test engine and drained all the oil out and then they ran
the engine until failure again. It ran a long time after the synthetic was drained.
This is an extreme run condition, but kind of shows that synthetics do
a good job under the more extreme runs. Regular dino based oil works well too
especially as often as we drain it, but I'm a believer in protecting the engine
against the more extreme ends of an engine run (i.e. high and low temps).
This belief is kind of like Chevy's and Ford's, you believe or you don't.
Here is an article:
Synthetic oil and synthetic blends
Synthetic lubricants were synthesized, or man-made, in quantity initially as a
replacement for mineral lubricants (and fuels) by German scientists in the late
1930s and early 1940s due to a shortage of available crude, principally for
the German war machine. A significant factor in its gain in popularity was the
ability of synthetic based lubricants to remain fluid at the sub-zero temperatures
of the Eastern front during winter, temperatures which caused petroleum
based lubricants to solidify due to their higher wax content. The use of synthetic
lubricants widened through the 1950s and 1960s due to a property at the other
end of the temperature spectrum, the ability to lubricate aviation engines
at temperatures that caused mineral based lubricants to break down. In the mid
1970s, synthetic motor oils were formulated and commercially applied for the
first time in automotive applications. The same SAE system for designating motor
oil viscosity also applies to synthetic oils.
Instead of making motor oil with the conventional petroleum base, "true" synthetic
oil base stocks are artificially synthesized. Synthetic oils are derived from
either Group III mineral base oils, Group IV, or Group V non-mineral bases.
True synthetics include classes of lubricants like synthetic esters as well
as "others" like GTL (Methane Gas-to-Liquid) (Group V) and polyalpha-olefins (Group
IV), although actual base oil content of finished blended motor oils is
not a factor. Higher purity and therefore better property control theoretically
means synthetic oil has good mechanical properties at extremes of high and low
temperatures. The molecules are made large and "soft" enough to retain good
viscosity at higher temperatures, yet branched molecular structures interfere
with solidification and therefore allow flow at lower temperatures. Thus, although
the viscosity still decreases as temperature increases, these synthetic
motor oils have a much improved viscosity index over the traditional petroleum
base. Their specially designed properties allow a wider temperature range at
higher and lower temperatures and often include a lower pour point. With their
improved viscosity index, true synthetic oils need little or no viscosity index
improvers, which are the oil components most vulnerable to thermal and mechanical
degradation as the oil ages, and thus they do not degrade as quickly as
traditional motor oils.
Synthetic lubricants are designed for "long life" extended drain intervals, but
most users rarely run them long enough to gain a cost-effective return. If a
"synthetic" oil costs 2 to 3 times as much as a conventional oil, it would have
to be used for 2 to 3 times longer than a conventional oil just to break even.
Today, synthetic lubricants are available for use in modern automobiles on nearly
all lubricated components, allegedly with superior performance and longevity
as compared to non-synthetic alternatives. Some tests[citation needed] have
shown that fully synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil in many respects,
providing better engine protection, performance, and better flow in cold starts
than petroleum-based motor oil. These "tests" simply test the parameters
of the oil itself and not really how well they work. Synthetics may offer little
or no real-world benefit, as witnessed by the millions and millions of cars
that lead long lives on plain motor oil. Generally, other components will fail
long before the engine dies of an oil-related failure. Lab analysis of the wear
metals contained in the used oil show identical or even lower wear with plain
dino oils. Consumer Reports attempted[citation needed] to demonstrate the
conventional vs synthetic advantages, but chose taxi cabs as a test-bed, which
is actually a non-demanding application since the oil stays hot all the time,
easily driving off accumulated water and fuels. This "test" in low-performance
engines over a less-demanding driving cycle technically proved little about
the subject.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177845#177845
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| Subject: | Re: True Rotax brand oil filters |
And you might want to measure the depth of the Filter before you buy. the PL10241
didn't clear quite my exhaust manifold on my KF-7. I lacked about 1/4" from
getting a straight shot when screwing it on.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177849#177849
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| Subject: | Re: True Rotax brand oil filters |
Roger:
I certainly have no argument with the article. I have used full synthetic
oil in the past when I was travelling over a hundred miles a day and it was
fantastic. Kept my engine clean as a whistle. Now the car is parked quite
often and there are days that it doesn't move at all. For that kind of
operation I want the superior corrosion protection mineral oil gives. I
knew guy who used to swear by, not at, putting a half quart of synthetic
oil in his engine a hundred miles or so before an oil change. He said it
cleaned out all the old sludge. Personally I'd be too nervous about gumming
up "the works" to try that.
Arizona... I'd love to live in a place where Snow tires are a distant
legend. :-)
I know helicopter engineers who have to be on hand every morning in the
arctic winter for start ups. As I said the panel lights up like a Christmas
tree and the engineers have to be on hand to reset the bypasses and log the
events. Mind you the temperatures they operate under are well below the 0F
mark. We seldom see it that cold here.
When I was in my early twenties I was in a road rally. About 400 mi all day
event and we all went to a bar afterwards to swap lies.
Well almost all of us.
At the last checkpoint I found the base pan had been beaten out of the car,
A Renault 10. Apparently my sister had taken the car the day before to go
to out summer cottage which was at the wrong end of a very poor road. Her
boyfriend managed to pound the base pan out of the car on their way into the
cottage. They spent the day there and then drove over forty miles home
again and said nothing to me about this even though they both knew I was
going rallying the next day. Oh yes on the way home the guy took the light
out of the dash because it was shining in his eyes.
As close as I can figure the engine had over 500 miles on it with no oil in
the basepan. This was on regular mineral oil. The boyfriend went to fix
the car and pounded a wooden plug into the draining hole which was cracked
out. The wooden pin caused us to burn out two transmission actuators @
$200.00 ea ( electric automatic standard ). Before I found out what he had
done. Another $100 got us another base pan. The point is that little
beastie pulled hard for 500 mi with no oil and it ran well afterward.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 12:48 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters
Hi Noel,
The ten year or 1000hr. remark was only a joke. Smiley face was attached.
:D
The other qualifier I added was "normal daily temps." Not the harder cold
day temps. in some parts of the country during winter. Synthetic oil is
pourable down to -45F. If you are in the 20F range you should never have an
issue. If you use the appropriate viscosity oil in the winter months you
should not have any issues. Most of us here are flying either Experimental,
Amateur built or LSA aircraft and don't have to run dino based oil although
regular oil is really not that bad when changed and used properly. Semi
synthetic and dino based oils will suspend the lead in 100LL where a full
synthetic will let the lead fall out of the oil. The semi synthetics and
full synthetics do a much better job of protecting the engine on the extreme
sides of the engine run parameters. (i.e. very hot or very cold) In Arizona
we don't have so much of the cold as we do the hot. I use synthetic in my
cars, but not because of a longer advertised drain interval, but for the
better protection while!
running.
We will have to disagree on the synthetic oil draining off parts while
sitting. I think just the opposite.
Most of us are old enough on this forum to remember an old Mobile One TV
commercial. When they had a test engine and drained all the oil out and then
they ran the engine until failure again. It ran a long time after the
synthetic was drained. This is an extreme run condition, but kind of shows
that synthetics do a good job under the more extreme runs. Regular dino
based oil works well too especially as often as we drain it, but I'm a
believer in protecting the engine against the more extreme ends of an engine
run (i.e. high and low temps).
This belief is kind of like Chevy's and Ford's, you believe or you don't.
Here is an article:
Synthetic oil and synthetic blends
Synthetic lubricants were synthesized, or man-made, in quantity initially as
a replacement for mineral lubricants (and fuels) by German scientists in the
late 1930s and early 1940s due to a shortage of available crude, principally
for the German war machine. A significant factor in its gain in popularity
was the ability of synthetic based lubricants to remain fluid at the
sub-zero temperatures of the Eastern front during winter, temperatures which
caused petroleum based lubricants to solidify due to their higher wax
content. The use of synthetic lubricants widened through the 1950s and 1960s
due to a property at the other end of the temperature spectrum, the ability
to lubricate aviation engines at temperatures that caused mineral based
lubricants to break down. In the mid 1970s, synthetic motor oils were
formulated and commercially applied for the first time in automotive
applications. The same SAE system for designating motor oil viscosity also
applies to synthetic oils.
Instead of making motor oil with the conventional petroleum base, "true"
synthetic oil base stocks are artificially synthesized. Synthetic oils are
derived from either Group III mineral base oils, Group IV, or Group V
non-mineral bases. True synthetics include classes of lubricants like
synthetic esters as well as "others" like GTL (Methane Gas-to-Liquid) (Group
V) and polyalpha-olefins (Group IV), although actual base oil content of
finished blended motor oils is not a factor. Higher purity and therefore
better property control theoretically means synthetic oil has good
mechanical properties at extremes of high and low temperatures. The
molecules are made large and "soft" enough to retain good viscosity at
higher temperatures, yet branched molecular structures interfere with
solidification and therefore allow flow at lower temperatures. Thus,
although the viscosity still decreases as temperature increases, these
synthetic motor oils have a much improved viscosity index over!
the traditional petroleum base. Their specially designed properties allow
a wider temperature range at higher and lower temperatures and often include
a lower pour point. With their improved viscosity index, true synthetic oils
need little or no viscosity index improvers, which are the oil components
most vulnerable to thermal and mechanical degradation as the oil ages, and
thus they do not degrade as quickly as traditional motor oils.
Synthetic lubricants are designed for "long life" extended drain intervals,
but most users rarely run them long enough to gain a cost-effective return.
If a "synthetic" oil costs 2 to 3 times as much as a conventional oil, it
would have to be used for 2 to 3 times longer than a conventional oil just
to break even.
Today, synthetic lubricants are available for use in modern automobiles on
nearly all lubricated components, allegedly with superior performance and
longevity as compared to non-synthetic alternatives. Some tests[citation
needed] have shown that fully synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil
in many respects, providing better engine protection, performance, and
better flow in cold starts than petroleum-based motor oil. These "tests"
simply test the parameters of the oil itself and not really how well they
work. Synthetics may offer little or no real-world benefit, as witnessed by
the millions and millions of cars that lead long lives on plain motor oil.
Generally, other components will fail long before the engine dies of an
oil-related failure. Lab analysis of the wear metals contained in the used
oil show identical or even lower wear with plain dino oils. Consumer Reports
attempted[citation needed] to demonstrate the conventional vs synthetic
advantages, but chose taxi!
cabs as a test-bed, which is actually a non-demanding application since
the oil stays hot all the time, easily driving off accumulated water and
fuels. This "test" in low-performance engines over a less-demanding driving
cycle technically proved little about the subject.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177845#177845
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| Subject: | Re: True Rotax brand oil filters |
My CT also lacks the 3/8" to clear the exhaust for the oil filter. My last plane
had a different exhaust system and clearance was no problem.
I believe most engines would run for a while with no oil, it's just how long is
the run. I would guess the high compression or tight tolerances might suffer
more.
I fully believe use what ever oil you want and it will be ok, just change it when
you are supposed to change it along with the filter. This is the life blood
of your engine. Engines have been using all kinds of oils for billions of mile
now and the life of the engine usually comes down to the better maint. engine.
(generally speaking)
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177856#177856
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Tommy,
What's your budget and time in service constraints on a used 912?
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
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Hi Thom,
I would like a mid time engine (500-800) hours.
Hopefully I can get an engine, air box, oil reservoir, radiator, etc. for around
$7K-8K. 80 HP is OK, but prefer 100.
Tommy
Thom Riddle wrote:
> Tommy,
> What's your budget and time in service constraints on a used 912?
>
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY
--------
Tommy Walker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177889#177889
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