---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/19/08: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:33 AM - Re: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (george may) 2. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Noel Loveys) 3. 08:20 AM - Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Roger Lee) 4. 09:13 AM - Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Rich L) 5. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Noel Loveys) 6. 10:12 AM - Re: True Rotax brand oil filters (Roger Lee) 7. 01:43 PM - Re: Rotax 912 (Thom Riddle) 8. 03:04 PM - Re: Rotax 912 (Tommy Walker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:38 AM PST US From: george may Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters Roger-- Thanks for the psi explanation. Looks like I'll begin using other than Rota x filters George May 601XL 912s ===========> > > _________________________________________________________________ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_getintouch_042008 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:59 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters Roger: For the most part I agree with your post, except the part about the oil needing to be 1000 hr or ten years old. When mineral oil gets cold it thickens. This is something to keep in mind regardless of what kind of aircraft engine you are operating in freezing temperatures. Also the filter is not the only thing you have to watch out for or put a bypass on. On one occasion in Goose Bay, Labrador a couple of guys flying a couple of Aero-Commanders were over nighting on their way to Europe. In the thick of the Labrador frost the next morning they were offered a hot start on all four engines (for a reasonable price). They pooh-poohed the idea and went to start the engines. They never got to the part where they released the brakes. All four oil coolers blew and both planes were covered in oil. Talk about a mess!!! Luckily there is no EPA at the airport in Goose Bay. Three days and four coolers and a boatload of dollars later they finally got underway. Not everyone runs synthetic oil, which in those temperatures can thicken enough to open a bypass, so a good bypass is something to be considered. Especially if there is a chance you can experience temperatures not that far below the freezing point of water. When the going really gets rough, operators of piston aircraft actually drain the oil bring it and the battery into the house for the night. Many even then will have engine compartment heaters to keep the oil from gelling as it is poured back into the plane or have the oil almost boiling hot before putting it back. Turbine engines, which use synthetic oil, have by pass valves on everything that are also wired to the enunciator panel. With some engines, in the coldest conditions, the panel will "light up" shortly after starting the engine. When the engine is up to temp the switches on the bypass valves can be reset. On the topic of synthetic oils. They are really slippery, How slippery? So slippery they will completely drip off internal engine components removing any protection from corrosion. It's hard to recommend this oil to people who don't run their engines every day. The long and the short of it is: Synthetic oil is a fantastic thing for some users but will bring only heartache to weekend flyers. Even on bad flying days the engines with the synthetic oil should be run a few minutes to maintain the protection of the oil. To take the strain off your oil filter bypass, keep your rpm to a minimum until your engine temps have stabilized. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 11:52 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters Hi Guys, The Rotax filter bypass pressure is .9-1.1 bar or 13-15.9psi. The Fram Tough Guard and Pure One filter along with many other American filter bypass pressure is 12-15 psi. This should only come into play when the upstream pressure becomes at least 12psi different from the downstream pressure at the filter. This should not happen unless you have some serious issues with a clogged filter and if you clog a filter you have some serious engine issues or haven't changed your oil in the last ten years or 1000 hrs. which ever came first. :D The Fram Tough Guard and the Pure One have more filter medium because they are 1/2" longer. The Pure One has a better efficiency rating and three filter mediums and not just one medium like the Rotax or Fram Tough Guard. Some say oil filter's actually bypasses at start up. These filters can flow 6 gal. a minute and the Rotax engine circulates about 4 gals a minute when up at normal running rpm's and not at a start up rpm or idle. Full synthetic or semi synthetic is very pourable at most of our normal daily temps. I find it hard to believe that at start up when you aren't flowing 4 gals. a minute and there is no pressure restriction that the filters actually bypass oil. I have heard the people say they do, but I'm not a believer. When I did my research the oil filter engineer's (not the sales reps) said the the one psi difference is not an exact science and that everyones can very a psi, even Rotax's filter. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177790#177790 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:49 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters From: "Roger Lee" Hi Noel, The ten year or 1000hr. remark was only a joke. Smiley face was attached. :D The other qualifier I added was "normal daily temps." Not the harder cold day temps. in some parts of the country during winter. Synthetic oil is pourable down to -45F. If you are in the 20F range you should never have an issue. If you use the appropriate viscosity oil in the winter months you should not have any issues. Most of us here are flying either Experimental, Amateur built or LSA aircraft and don't have to run dino based oil although regular oil is really not that bad when changed and used properly. Semi synthetic and dino based oils will suspend the lead in 100LL where a full synthetic will let the lead fall out of the oil. The semi synthetics and full synthetics do a much better job of protecting the engine on the extreme sides of the engine run parameters. (i.e. very hot or very cold) In Arizona we don't have so much of the cold as we do the hot. I use synthetic in my cars, but not because of a longer advertised drain interval, but for the better protection while running. We will have to disagree on the synthetic oil draining off parts while sitting. I think just the opposite. Most of us are old enough on this forum to remember an old Mobile One TV commercial. When they had a test engine and drained all the oil out and then they ran the engine until failure again. It ran a long time after the synthetic was drained. This is an extreme run condition, but kind of shows that synthetics do a good job under the more extreme runs. Regular dino based oil works well too especially as often as we drain it, but I'm a believer in protecting the engine against the more extreme ends of an engine run (i.e. high and low temps). This belief is kind of like Chevy's and Ford's, you believe or you don't. Here is an article: Synthetic oil and synthetic blends Synthetic lubricants were synthesized, or man-made, in quantity initially as a replacement for mineral lubricants (and fuels) by German scientists in the late 1930s and early 1940s due to a shortage of available crude, principally for the German war machine. A significant factor in its gain in popularity was the ability of synthetic based lubricants to remain fluid at the sub-zero temperatures of the Eastern front during winter, temperatures which caused petroleum based lubricants to solidify due to their higher wax content. The use of synthetic lubricants widened through the 1950s and 1960s due to a property at the other end of the temperature spectrum, the ability to lubricate aviation engines at temperatures that caused mineral based lubricants to break down. In the mid 1970s, synthetic motor oils were formulated and commercially applied for the first time in automotive applications. The same SAE system for designating motor oil viscosity also applies to synthetic oils. Instead of making motor oil with the conventional petroleum base, "true" synthetic oil base stocks are artificially synthesized. Synthetic oils are derived from either Group III mineral base oils, Group IV, or Group V non-mineral bases. True synthetics include classes of lubricants like synthetic esters as well as "others" like GTL (Methane Gas-to-Liquid) (Group V) and polyalpha-olefins (Group IV), although actual base oil content of finished blended motor oils is not a factor. Higher purity and therefore better property control theoretically means synthetic oil has good mechanical properties at extremes of high and low temperatures. The molecules are made large and "soft" enough to retain good viscosity at higher temperatures, yet branched molecular structures interfere with solidification and therefore allow flow at lower temperatures. Thus, although the viscosity still decreases as temperature increases, these synthetic motor oils have a much improved viscosity index over the traditional petroleum base. Their specially designed properties allow a wider temperature range at higher and lower temperatures and often include a lower pour point. With their improved viscosity index, true synthetic oils need little or no viscosity index improvers, which are the oil components most vulnerable to thermal and mechanical degradation as the oil ages, and thus they do not degrade as quickly as traditional motor oils. Synthetic lubricants are designed for "long life" extended drain intervals, but most users rarely run them long enough to gain a cost-effective return. If a "synthetic" oil costs 2 to 3 times as much as a conventional oil, it would have to be used for 2 to 3 times longer than a conventional oil just to break even. Today, synthetic lubricants are available for use in modern automobiles on nearly all lubricated components, allegedly with superior performance and longevity as compared to non-synthetic alternatives. Some tests[citation needed] have shown that fully synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil in many respects, providing better engine protection, performance, and better flow in cold starts than petroleum-based motor oil. These "tests" simply test the parameters of the oil itself and not really how well they work. Synthetics may offer little or no real-world benefit, as witnessed by the millions and millions of cars that lead long lives on plain motor oil. Generally, other components will fail long before the engine dies of an oil-related failure. Lab analysis of the wear metals contained in the used oil show identical or even lower wear with plain dino oils. Consumer Reports attempted[citation needed] to demonstrate the conventional vs synthetic advantages, but chose taxi cabs as a test-bed, which is actually a non-demanding application since the oil stays hot all the time, easily driving off accumulated water and fuels. This "test" in low-performance engines over a less-demanding driving cycle technically proved little about the subject. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177845#177845 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:14 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters From: "Rich L" And you might want to measure the depth of the Filter before you buy. the PL10241 didn't clear quite my exhaust manifold on my KF-7. I lacked about 1/4" from getting a straight shot when screwing it on. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177849#177849 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:16 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters Roger: I certainly have no argument with the article. I have used full synthetic oil in the past when I was travelling over a hundred miles a day and it was fantastic. Kept my engine clean as a whistle. Now the car is parked quite often and there are days that it doesn't move at all. For that kind of operation I want the superior corrosion protection mineral oil gives. I knew guy who used to swear by, not at, putting a half quart of synthetic oil in his engine a hundred miles or so before an oil change. He said it cleaned out all the old sludge. Personally I'd be too nervous about gumming up "the works" to try that. Arizona... I'd love to live in a place where Snow tires are a distant legend. :-) I know helicopter engineers who have to be on hand every morning in the arctic winter for start ups. As I said the panel lights up like a Christmas tree and the engineers have to be on hand to reset the bypasses and log the events. Mind you the temperatures they operate under are well below the 0F mark. We seldom see it that cold here. When I was in my early twenties I was in a road rally. About 400 mi all day event and we all went to a bar afterwards to swap lies. Well almost all of us. At the last checkpoint I found the base pan had been beaten out of the car, A Renault 10. Apparently my sister had taken the car the day before to go to out summer cottage which was at the wrong end of a very poor road. Her boyfriend managed to pound the base pan out of the car on their way into the cottage. They spent the day there and then drove over forty miles home again and said nothing to me about this even though they both knew I was going rallying the next day. Oh yes on the way home the guy took the light out of the dash because it was shining in his eyes. As close as I can figure the engine had over 500 miles on it with no oil in the basepan. This was on regular mineral oil. The boyfriend went to fix the car and pounded a wooden plug into the draining hole which was cracked out. The wooden pin caused us to burn out two transmission actuators @ $200.00 ea ( electric automatic standard ). Before I found out what he had done. Another $100 got us another base pan. The point is that little beastie pulled hard for 500 mi with no oil and it ran well afterward. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 12:48 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters Hi Noel, The ten year or 1000hr. remark was only a joke. Smiley face was attached. :D The other qualifier I added was "normal daily temps." Not the harder cold day temps. in some parts of the country during winter. Synthetic oil is pourable down to -45F. If you are in the 20F range you should never have an issue. If you use the appropriate viscosity oil in the winter months you should not have any issues. Most of us here are flying either Experimental, Amateur built or LSA aircraft and don't have to run dino based oil although regular oil is really not that bad when changed and used properly. Semi synthetic and dino based oils will suspend the lead in 100LL where a full synthetic will let the lead fall out of the oil. The semi synthetics and full synthetics do a much better job of protecting the engine on the extreme sides of the engine run parameters. (i.e. very hot or very cold) In Arizona we don't have so much of the cold as we do the hot. I use synthetic in my cars, but not because of a longer advertised drain interval, but for the better protection while! running. We will have to disagree on the synthetic oil draining off parts while sitting. I think just the opposite. Most of us are old enough on this forum to remember an old Mobile One TV commercial. When they had a test engine and drained all the oil out and then they ran the engine until failure again. It ran a long time after the synthetic was drained. This is an extreme run condition, but kind of shows that synthetics do a good job under the more extreme runs. Regular dino based oil works well too especially as often as we drain it, but I'm a believer in protecting the engine against the more extreme ends of an engine run (i.e. high and low temps). This belief is kind of like Chevy's and Ford's, you believe or you don't. Here is an article: Synthetic oil and synthetic blends Synthetic lubricants were synthesized, or man-made, in quantity initially as a replacement for mineral lubricants (and fuels) by German scientists in the late 1930s and early 1940s due to a shortage of available crude, principally for the German war machine. A significant factor in its gain in popularity was the ability of synthetic based lubricants to remain fluid at the sub-zero temperatures of the Eastern front during winter, temperatures which caused petroleum based lubricants to solidify due to their higher wax content. The use of synthetic lubricants widened through the 1950s and 1960s due to a property at the other end of the temperature spectrum, the ability to lubricate aviation engines at temperatures that caused mineral based lubricants to break down. In the mid 1970s, synthetic motor oils were formulated and commercially applied for the first time in automotive applications. The same SAE system for designating motor oil viscosity also applies to synthetic oils. Instead of making motor oil with the conventional petroleum base, "true" synthetic oil base stocks are artificially synthesized. Synthetic oils are derived from either Group III mineral base oils, Group IV, or Group V non-mineral bases. True synthetics include classes of lubricants like synthetic esters as well as "others" like GTL (Methane Gas-to-Liquid) (Group V) and polyalpha-olefins (Group IV), although actual base oil content of finished blended motor oils is not a factor. Higher purity and therefore better property control theoretically means synthetic oil has good mechanical properties at extremes of high and low temperatures. The molecules are made large and "soft" enough to retain good viscosity at higher temperatures, yet branched molecular structures interfere with solidification and therefore allow flow at lower temperatures. Thus, although the viscosity still decreases as temperature increases, these synthetic motor oils have a much improved viscosity index over! the traditional petroleum base. Their specially designed properties allow a wider temperature range at higher and lower temperatures and often include a lower pour point. With their improved viscosity index, true synthetic oils need little or no viscosity index improvers, which are the oil components most vulnerable to thermal and mechanical degradation as the oil ages, and thus they do not degrade as quickly as traditional motor oils. Synthetic lubricants are designed for "long life" extended drain intervals, but most users rarely run them long enough to gain a cost-effective return. If a "synthetic" oil costs 2 to 3 times as much as a conventional oil, it would have to be used for 2 to 3 times longer than a conventional oil just to break even. Today, synthetic lubricants are available for use in modern automobiles on nearly all lubricated components, allegedly with superior performance and longevity as compared to non-synthetic alternatives. Some tests[citation needed] have shown that fully synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil in many respects, providing better engine protection, performance, and better flow in cold starts than petroleum-based motor oil. These "tests" simply test the parameters of the oil itself and not really how well they work. Synthetics may offer little or no real-world benefit, as witnessed by the millions and millions of cars that lead long lives on plain motor oil. Generally, other components will fail long before the engine dies of an oil-related failure. Lab analysis of the wear metals contained in the used oil show identical or even lower wear with plain dino oils. Consumer Reports attempted[citation needed] to demonstrate the conventional vs synthetic advantages, but chose taxi! cabs as a test-bed, which is actually a non-demanding application since the oil stays hot all the time, easily driving off accumulated water and fuels. This "test" in low-performance engines over a less-demanding driving cycle technically proved little about the subject. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177845#177845 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:15 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters From: "Roger Lee" My CT also lacks the 3/8" to clear the exhaust for the oil filter. My last plane had a different exhaust system and clearance was no problem. I believe most engines would run for a while with no oil, it's just how long is the run. I would guess the high compression or tight tolerances might suffer more. I fully believe use what ever oil you want and it will be ok, just change it when you are supposed to change it along with the filter. This is the life blood of your engine. Engines have been using all kinds of oils for billions of mile now and the life of the engine usually comes down to the better maint. engine. (generally speaking) -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177856#177856 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:58 PM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912 Tommy, What's your budget and time in service constraints on a used 912? Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:51 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 912 From: "Tommy Walker" Hi Thom, I would like a mid time engine (500-800) hours. Hopefully I can get an engine, air box, oil reservoir, radiator, etc. for around $7K-8K. 80 HP is OK, but prefer 100. Tommy Thom Riddle wrote: > Tommy, > What's your budget and time in service constraints on a used 912? > > Thom Riddle > Buffalo, NY -------- Tommy Walker Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177889#177889 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.