Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:34 AM - AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem (Gtblu)
2. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasolineExperience wi (Catz631@aol.com)
3. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
4. 06:56 AM - Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Rich L)
5. 07:36 AM - Re: AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem (Guy Buchanan)
6. 07:44 AM - Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Roger Lee)
7. 07:49 AM - Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasolineExperience wi (Roger Lee)
8. 11:04 AM - Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (rampil)
9. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Ollie Washburn)
10. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (John Cox)
11. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (John Cox)
12. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
13. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
14. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (george may)
15. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
16. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline ()
17. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
18. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
19. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
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| Subject: | Re: AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem |
Hi
Bringing up this same old problem again as I have a new piece of info.
Followed all advise on this, to refresh have a 912 uls that always and as advertised
had a rough running area between 4000 and 5000 revs. However recently has
extended the rough running onto about 5250 revs with a slight change in nature.
I can be in a turn with the prop loading up, I presume as G's increase, and
engine will lose its rough running at a set throttle setting, similar to bearing
float in a car. However the new info is that the vibration is considerably
more noticeable if the oil temperature is over 100. The desire is to keep temperatures
over 100 to burn off impurities, but not at the expense of the vibe.
With those symptoms, I suspect the gearbox. I have tuned the carbs very carefully,
re-adjusted the pitch on the prop (at 200mm in from the tips as the tips are
not consistent!)
Has anyone had concerns or experiences about particular oils? Currently using vsx4
Thanks for all the inputs. I tried them all bar a prop balance. Swapped props instead
and still had the same issues.
regards
Gtblu
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182110#182110
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasolineExperience |
wi
I just read about an interesting product that "might" help with ethanol in
fuel. It's called Sta-bil Marine formula for ethanol fuels. The hyperlink
is:_http://goldeagle.com_ (http://goldeagle.com) . I might give it a shot when we
get alcohol in our area. So far, I am able to get fuel alcohol free.
I do know that my Rotax 912 does not like old fuel as it ran on and turned
backwards on shut down twice when I had two month old fuel in the tanks. I
drained the tanks, put the fuel in my truck, and I had to go through the purge
procedure and valve clearance check on my 912. I don't want to do that again so
I am always adding Stabil to my fuel (and am using the mid grade auto fuel as
well)
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4-1200
Rotax 912UL
Pensacola,Fl
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
One of the problems is it is perceived that people like myself who live in
non farming locales have something against farmers making a good living.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I have lived, for a short period,
in Manitoba and have a keen sense of respect for farmers. They work hard
and should be well rewarded for their labours. Any one who thinks a farmer
is only a guy who rides a tractor should consider the decisions he has to
make before he ever starts a tractor. There is budgeting for seed, fuel,
lime if needed, fertilizer, irrigation, and transportation. If that wasn't
enough they then have to deal with the tax departments. They have to keep
impeccable books and can be called to explain the smallest item at any time.
To all that he also has to have a green thumb and or know his livestock.
Anyone who doesn't have great respect for farmers really should spend a
little time learning where out breakfast, dinner and supper comes from. All
that aside there is just too much government meddling in farming. There is
something wrong with any system that pays farmers not to plant crops or
slaughter thousands of livestock.
The same thing is true of fishermen. They add danger to the mix of
requirements farmers have and our governments do little if anything to make
their way of life better. They allow offshore fishing armadas to come rape
and pillage the nose and tail of the Grand Banks. That same fishing ground
used to be the biggest store of seafood in the entire world... today it is
the next thing to a submarine desert. When the do catch a vessel
devastating our resources they eventually let it go. I'd have the darn
thing converted into rails or Fords. And their skippers would spend five
years or so making big ones into little ones. If their homelands want them
back I'd deport them at the first opportunity...not enough need for little
ones J.
My beef is in the diversion of food producing land into a fuel that is so
financially irresponsible. Our farm lands and the people who work them are
just about the most valuable thing there is and we are throwing it all away
for a fuel source that we literally cannot sustain.
We should be working on new ways to store wind, and solar energy... not to
mention designing new ways to refine and use fossil fuels so there will be
much less polluting gasses given off.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Kuehn
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Noel,
Yes I really agree. Email is so limiting in this kind of discussion! Wish
we could sit down and chew on this one for a while. I would learn for sure.
I am lucky enough to live in a relatively dry climate here in western
Montana, so I guess I am oblivious to phase separation though I always
visually check my fuel. Politics of ETOH are a mess, and play a role in
lots of problems.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
I'm first to agree that flying is indeed a luxury. But it should be done
with the greatest safety and economic responsibility. Ethanol fuel
production in that past two months has increased the price at the pumps and
to add insult to injury the cost of food is sky rocketing at a slightly
lower rate. With the increase problems of using ethanol in aviation and the
stone cold fact ethanol production is anything but economically responsible
it's use should be prohibited not encouraged.
There are times I actually feel a bit guilty in the fact where I live on the
island of Newfoundland the chances of getting contaminated fuel are slim.
In fact there is only one refiner/distributor of gasoline that ships gas to
Newfoundland and they aren't too happy with what the stuff does to their
tankers. We don't ( really can't) grow corn commercially here so our local
refinery doesn't produce any E blend
Sometimes it's good to be surrounded by water....
Time will show how wrong the idiots in both our governments really are. I
just hope no one will end up paying the ultimate price.
There are places like Arizona where it is questionable as to how much
moisture ethanol will absorb from the air. In such places the possibility
of problems are greatly reduced. However the guy who lives in Washington
state or British Columbia is a lot more prone to having a phase separation
just because their environment is so much damper and they are subject to
some pretty large temperature swings especially while flying. I recommend
everyone read their legislators the riot act and use your best weapon... the
ballot box. It may be an uphill battle. No doubt it will be. Consider the
fact it is the right thing to do.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Noel,
I understand your point of view, however another take on it might be that we
are very fortunate indeed to have any fuel at all, at any price. Billions
of people in the world have their hands full just surviving. Flying is
indeed a luxury.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Jack:
Why is it then that COPA does NOT recommend the use of ethanol contaminated
fuels. Why is it the FAA will not certify ethanol contaminated fuels? I
agree most of our engines should not be using 100LL ( should be Loaded with
Lead) My opinion on the use of ethanol as a fuel source is well known as is
my opinion on using it to fly. Best thing is to hoot holler and yell bloody
murder until the brain dead politicians allow access to clean fuel.
Who runs our countries any way??? Use the ballot box!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can
see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil
sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I
suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of
this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and
engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol
every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and
you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead
deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Ln
Lolo, MT USA 59847
(406)273-6801
(406)546-1086 cell
jack.kuehn@gmail.com
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Ln
Lolo, MT USA 59847
(406)273-6801
(406)546-1086 cell
jack.kuehn@gmail.com
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
When TCP becomes available again, will it take care of the excessive Lead problems
in Rotax engines? It has been used for years in aircraft engines for that
purpose. I understand as soon as the vendor overcomes some shipping and packaging
problems it will be back on the market.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182150#182150
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| Subject: | Re: AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem |
At 03:31 AM 5/9/2008, you wrote:
>Has anyone had concerns or experiences about particular oils?
>Currently using vsx4
>Thanks for all the inputs. I tried them all bar a prop balance.
>Swapped props instead and still had the same issues.
You did confirm that your engine has a slipper-clutch, right?
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Don't compare the Rotax 912 with other GA aircraft engines and with ethanol. They
are worlds apart.
The water retention issue could be a factor, but not much of one. When at the higher
altitudes (above 8'K, reference Rotax classes) there is a very slight possibility
for a fuel alcohol/water separation or a vapor lock. It is a slight
chance and there would have to be an awful lot of water to fall out of that solution
to stop the Rotax. This is due to different partial pressures of the overall
fuel contents. Your fuel would have to be very saturated for that big a
slug of water to come out all at once to stop the engine. Your Rotax can pass
through small amounts at a time. If any of you are from the old backyard mechanics
days they used to spray water into auto carbs while they were running to
help clean the system out. If you have that much water in your fuel then your
aren't running fresh fuel through your system often enough (i.e. older fuel),
you aren't checking the low point drains or the gasolator and some how you have
introduced water into the fuel system (i.e. leaving it in the rain). I know
water can get in the fuel because many live in humid areas, but this is where
fresh fuel, running the engine more often and checking the water content in the
fuel during a preflight is important and was established.
When using TCP just double check your compatibility with the fuel tank materials.
Ethanol is a personal choice, but it can be used safely with education. It is not
a demon as some believe. Just use it within its operating parameters.
Might as well get used to it more is coming our way.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182163#182163
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasolineExperience |
wi
Fuels should not be used after 4 weeks. They evaporate and lose their additives
and octane the rating decreases. Just adding more gas stabilizers aren't always
the answer. You may end up with too much or not enough.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182165#182165
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Noel,
You are certainly entitled to your convictions.
Where exactly does the FAA say they do not want Rotax engines
flying above 10000 feet?
As for the fabled engine warranty, Rotax and every other engine
manufacturer provides a warranty that is pretty close to worthless.
They will assure that the engine runs when you get it (not when you
finish your plane) and after that, practically speaking, forget it.
John, if you value your warranty so much, you'd better not start your
engine ;-)
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182221#182221
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
My eng was one of the ones that came under the bad metal gears in the
gearbox. Mine were bad and they replaced the gearbox and installed new
short block. I had to pay for oil change and new filter . Eng had 251
hrs. on it.
Ollie Central FL
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:00 PM, rampil <ira.rampil@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Noel,
>
> You are certainly entitled to your convictions.
>
> Where exactly does the FAA say they do not want Rotax engines
> flying above 10000 feet?
>
> As for the fabled engine warranty, Rotax and every other engine
> manufacturer provides a warranty that is pretty close to worthless.
> They will assure that the engine runs when you get it (not when you
> finish your plane) and after that, practically speaking, forget it.
>
> John, if you value your warranty so much, you'd better not start your
> engine ;-)
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182221#182221
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
For the exact reasons and the reduced safety of E10 at higher
temperatures and altitude, E10 is not intrinsically equivalent. We
differ in our conclusion.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rampil
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 4:04 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
John,
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with E10 Mogas.
You just have to understand the differences.
E10 has a somewhat lower energy density, about 5%
E10 may have a somewhat higher likelihood to vaporize and flow lock
tubing over 10k density altitude.
Oh yes, and E10 will melt old lycoming and continental engines and
old cessnas and pipers that use cork and natural rubber in their
fuel systems. Bad for them, irrelevant to Rotax engines which
are not composed of E10 sensitive materials.
The FAA will not "approve" EtOH for general use when there are so many
airframes and engines that are old enough to use rubber, cork, and a
few other EtOH sensitive components
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182026#182026
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
No. It deals with the lead within the air/fuel mixture (and works at
higher temperatures) but lead which settles out into the oil begins to
coat internal parts in the engine. The clutch is particularly
susceptible.
John.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich
L
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:54 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
When TCP becomes available again, will it take care of the excessive
Lead problems in Rotax engines? It has been used for years in aircraft
engines for that purpose. I understand as soon as the vendor overcomes
some shipping and packaging problems it will be back on the market.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182150#182150
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
What I've read about TCP, all within the past nine months, is it works
really well to keep the top end of the cylinder clean. That means it will
be a great boon to the folks flying anything four stroke.
Two stroke engines are a bit of a different animal... They have roller
bearings on the crankshaft that are exposed to unburned gas. TCP has to be
burned to work and in the base of a two stroke engine there isn't any
burning going on so it will not protect your engine from lead deposits
building up on the main bearings which can cause those bearings to fail. It
will help stop plug fouling and will help keep crud out of your ring gaps
but you will never know when you may get a main bearing lap.
If there is anyone out there who knows how to precipitate the lead out of
100ll please let us all know.
Now I'm thinking out loud ... why not get the appropriate governments
departments to authorize a lead free, ethanol free aviation gasoline. Call
it 95NL (No lead) and make it a consistent formula so you will get the same
gas whether you live in Anchorage, Ottawa, Omaha or Adelaide.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich L
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:24 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
When TCP becomes available again, will it take care of the excessive Lead
problems in Rotax engines? It has been used for years in aircraft engines
for that purpose. I understand as soon as the vendor overcomes some
shipping and packaging problems it will be back on the market.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182150#182150
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Fortunately for you the chances you will see a phase separation in Arizona
with all its rain, snow, fog and sleet I'd expect to be slim. Too bad the
guys in Nova Scotia, Maine, Connecticut or Washington can't say the same.
BTW when you do get a phase separation (E10) you will get no less than 10%
of your fuel on board separate into water/eth from the gas... So if your
plane has 20 gal aboard and you get a phase separation expect to see a bit
over 2 gal of water in the bottom of your tanks right where the fuel pickup
is. That is one of the dangers of ethanol contaminated fuel there is really
no way, short of doing an on the spot titration, factoring in delta t (temp)
of determining how close you are to a phase separation... If you drip your
tanks/sumps and get any water, you will get a lot of water. Maybe not
enough to sink the Titanic but it will seem to be that much and sure as
there is little green apples, you will get enough water/ethanol mix to stop
any infernal combustion engine.
You might be amazed at how much moisture the eth will absorb in one cool dew
laden night Especially if the tanks are less than full.. In a week you
could easily have enough to cause a phase separation. When you buy your gas
at the service station there is no way for you to check exactly how much
moisture it contains. In other words its like a time bomb... It may never
go off but if it does you have no way of telling when.
If you use this crud in your car a good idea would be to keep the tank
topped up at all times so there is much less space for condensation to form.
Also be sure to only by contaminated fuel from high volume outlets
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Don't compare the Rotax 912 with other GA aircraft engines and with ethanol.
They are worlds apart.
The water retention issue could be a factor, but not much of one. When at
the higher altitudes (above 8'K, reference Rotax classes) there is a very
slight possibility for a fuel alcohol/water separation or a vapor lock. It
is a slight chance and there would have to be an awful lot of water to fall
out of that solution to stop the Rotax. This is due to different partial
pressures of the overall fuel contents. Your fuel would have to be very
saturated for that big a slug of water to come out all at once to stop the
engine. Your Rotax can pass through small amounts at a time. If any of you
are from the old backyard mechanics days they used to spray water into auto
carbs while they were running to help clean the system out. If you have that
much water in your fuel then your aren't running fresh fuel through your
system often enough (i.e. older fuel), you aren't checking the low point
drains or the gasolator and some how you have introduced water into the fuel
system (i.e. leavin!
g it in the rain). I know water can get in the fuel because many live in
humid areas, but this is where fresh fuel, running the engine more often and
checking the water content in the fuel during a preflight is important and
was established.
When using TCP just double check your compatibility with the fuel tank
materials.
Ethanol is a personal choice, but it can be used safely with education. It
is not a demon as some believe. Just use it within its operating parameters.
Might as well get used to it more is coming our way.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182163#182163
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Noel--
I do not know if you fly a rotax engine. It does not sound like you do.
I have been flying both two stroke and four stroke Rotax engines for about
8 years. Most of the flying has been in Maine and New Hampshire and we have
been using ethanol based fuels for at least have that time with no problem
s.
Not that I particularly wanted to used it but it was convienent.
I have never had a phase separation and I do fly year round. Altittudes are
usually 1500 to 6000 feet with a few flights at 9-10000 feet. In fact, I d
o not know of anyone in this area experiencing what you are concerned about
. As is good preflight practice, I do check my sumps and gascolator before
each flight. The little water I see is usually due to condensation. I do a
gree with you on the condensation possiblities, especially in the early spr
ing and fall in New England. Common practice is to keep the tanks topped of
f to avoid the condensation.
Everyone has to evaluate their own issues for each flight, I just think
on this point you might be a bit over concerned, at least when dealing wit
h Rotax engines.
George may
601XL 912s> From: noelloveys@yahoo.ca> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoli
ne> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 20:25:40 -0230> > --> RotaxEngines-List message p
osted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>> > Fortunately for you the ch
ances you will see a phase separation in Arizona> with all its rain, snow,
fog and sleet I'd expect to be slim. Too bad the> guys in Nova Scotia, Main
e, Connecticut or Washington can't say the same.> > BTW when you do get a p
hase separation (E10) you will get no less than 10%> of your fuel on board
separate into water/eth from the gas... So if your> plane has 20 gal aboard
and you get a phase separation expect to see a bit> over 2 gal of water in
the bottom of your tanks right where the fuel pickup> is. That is one of t
he dangers of ethanol contaminated fuel there is really> no way, short of d
oing an on the spot titration, factoring in delta t (temp)> of determining
how close you are to a phase separation... If you drip your> tanks/sumps an
d get any water, you will get a lot of water. Maybe not> enough to sink the
Titanic but it will seem to be that much and sure as> there is little gree
n apples, you will get enough water/ethanol mix to stop> any infernal combu
stion engine.> > You might be amazed at how much moisture the eth will abso
rb in one cool dew> laden night Especially if the tanks are less than full.
. In a week you> could easily have enough to cause a phase separation. When
you buy your gas> at the service station there is no way for you to check
exactly how much> moisture it contains. In other words its like a time bomb
... It may never> go off but if it does you have no way of telling when.> >
If you use this crud in your car a good idea would be to keep the tank> to
pped up at all times so there is much less space for condensation to form.>
Also be sure to only by contaminated fuel from high volume outlets> > Noel
> > -----Original Message-----> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matron
ics.com> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Roger Lee> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:12 PM> To: rotaxengines-list@matr
onics.com> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
@yahoo.com>> > Don't compare the Rotax 912 with other GA aircraft engines a
nd with ethanol.> They are worlds apart. > The water retention issue could
be a factor, but not much of one. When at> the higher altitudes (above 8'K,
reference Rotax classes) there is a very> slight possibility for a fuel al
cohol/water separation or a vapor lock. It> is a slight chance and there wo
uld have to be an awful lot of water to fall> out of that solution to stop
the Rotax. This is due to different partial> pressures of the overall fuel
contents. Your fuel would have to be very> saturated for that big a slug of
water to come out all at once to stop the> engine. Your Rotax can pass thr
ough small amounts at a time. If any of you> are from the old backyard mech
anics days they used to spray water into auto> carbs while they were runnin
g to help clean the system out. If you have that> much water in your fuel t
hen your aren't running fresh fuel through your> system often enough (i.e.
older fuel), you aren't checking the low point> drains or the gasolator and
some how you have introduced water into the fuel> system (i.e. leavin!> g
it in the rain). I know water can get in the fuel because many live in> hum
id areas, but this is where fresh fuel, running the engine more often and>
checking the water content in the fuel during a preflight is important and>
was established.> When using TCP just double check your compatibility with
the fuel tank> materials.> > Ethanol is a personal choice, but it can be u
sed safely with education. It> is not a demon as some believe. Just use it
within its operating parameters.> > Might as well get used to it more is co
ming our way.> > --------> Roger Lee> Tucson, Az.> > > > > Read this topic
online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182163#182163
=============> > >
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Sorry... I hit the send button before checking my data.
You will find the data at
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
Phase separation from E10 gas occurs when the water reaches .5% water by
volume at 60 F
For 20 U.S. gallons that is .1 gallon or 3.2 OZ. + 2 gal of ethanol.
There is a graph there that shows at 60 F and 4.5% water by volume a phase
separation will not occur but lower the temperature a measly ten F to 50
degrees an you will have a phase separation. Funny how the temperature
tends to drop as the altitude increases. With fuel so laden with moisture
you will probably experience a phase separation inside the carb which can
show itself as carb ice. Once separated it will not dissolve again when the
temperature increases to 60 F again.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Don't compare the Rotax 912 with other GA aircraft engines and with ethanol.
They are worlds apart.
The water retention issue could be a factor, but not much of one. When at
the higher altitudes (above 8'K, reference Rotax classes) there is a very
slight possibility for a fuel alcohol/water separation or a vapor lock. It
is a slight chance and there would have to be an awful lot of water to fall
out of that solution to stop the Rotax. This is due to different partial
pressures of the overall fuel contents. Your fuel would have to be very
saturated for that big a slug of water to come out all at once to stop the
engine. Your Rotax can pass through small amounts at a time. If any of you
are from the old backyard mechanics days they used to spray water into auto
carbs while they were running to help clean the system out. If you have that
much water in your fuel then your aren't running fresh fuel through your
system often enough (i.e. older fuel), you aren't checking the low point
drains or the gasolator and some how you have introduced water into the fuel
system (i.e. leavin!
g it in the rain). I know water can get in the fuel because many live in
humid areas, but this is where fresh fuel, running the engine more often and
checking the water content in the fuel during a preflight is important and
was established.
When using TCP just double check your compatibility with the fuel tank
materials.
Ethanol is a personal choice, but it can be used safely with education. It
is not a demon as some believe. Just use it within its operating parameters.
Might as well get used to it more is coming our way.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182163#182163
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
As far as flying with Ethanol laced mogas at altitude, in the event the
Ethanol absorbed a reasonable amount of water to make it close to
saturated, whats thoughts on adding some pure Isopropyl alcohol? Would
that not ward off phase change a bit?
I owned a 1948 C-170, the right tank drain was not at absolute lowest
point due to fact that too much weld was used during addition of tank
drain. No matter how careful would raise a wing and let sit and drain,
after 3 hours of flying water droplets could (and did several times) make
their way into gasculator and quit motor for longer than I cared for.
Twice a year changing of O-Rings on fuel caps did not cure. Twice a year
changing of O-Rings and addition of 1.5 quarts (33 gallons of fuel) of
Isopropyl Alcohol if even 1 drop of water was found worked for me for 15
years.
Ron Parigoris
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
FAA doesn't say not to fly above 10,000 ft with any engine I know of. But
the last poster did say the chances of vapour lock while using ethanol
contaminated fuel increased above 10,000 ft. I think that becomes a problem
for guys living in mountain locales.
I have already had warrantee work completed on my 582-UL and except for the
six weeks or so I was without an engine I have no complaints.... BTW in
that six weeks I may have been able to fly only once. Bob Robertson, who's
company is a Canadian Rotax repair depot has been a wealth of info and so
far has not steered me wrong. So I think I'll keep my warrantee for the
time of being.
You do have a point though starting is absolutely the worst thing you can do
to any piston engine. Turbines go from bad to worse.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 3:30 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Noel,
You are certainly entitled to your convictions.
Where exactly does the FAA say they do not want Rotax engines
flying above 10000 feet?
As for the fabled engine warranty, Rotax and every other engine
manufacturer provides a warranty that is pretty close to worthless.
They will assure that the engine runs when you get it (not when you
finish your plane) and after that, practically speaking, forget it.
John, if you value your warranty so much, you'd better not start your
engine ;-)
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182221#182221
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
George:
On one occasion I had a snowmobile that, I found out later had ethanol put
into the tank to dry up some snow that accidentally got into the tank. The
next year I had the worst mess I've ever seen in my tank. Moisture and
condensation in the tank was absorbed by the ethanol and when fall weather
came around the darn stuff had a phase separation. At the time I had no
idea what caused it but I saves some in a coffee jar. A friend who owned a
commercial lab told me exactly what happened. Having it happen in a parked
snowmobile is one thing but having it happen in a plane at altitude ... no
thanks.
The problem with ethanol fuel is there is no way to tell how much moisture
there is in the fuel. Unless you have a sealed pressurized fuel system and
you supplier has the same you can be sure you will have some moisture in
your fuel... The question is how much. The answer is impossible to tell
until it separates. This is not a problem explicitly for Rotax engines that
is why the FAA will not endorse the use of ethanol contaminated fuels for
any aircraft. On this point I back them 100%
What I'm saying is there is enough things to go wrong while flying. Being
very familiar with Mr. Murphy and his Law, I personally like to minimize the
number of things that can go wrong. Ethanol free fuel is a step in that
direction. As I said with a sealed CO2 pressurized fuel system and fuel
injection and a good fresh source of gas even corrupted with ethanol you're
probably as safe as anything flying. As far as I know they don't like
pressurized fuel systems anywhere in aviation so the only other safe option
is to avoid ethanol contaminated fuel.
I realize that is not always convenient so the answer is to lobby for a safe
supply of unleaded, non ethanol fuel that is as consistent as 100LL. I'll
bet if you could get such a fuel at your FBO that's what you'd be using.
As I said last night, I feel a bit guilty talking about this because the
chances I'll have to put up with ethanol contaminated fuel here are about
the same as a snowball in hell. It's the next thing to logistically
impossible to get the stuff here what little has arrived here (E5) got a bad
rep as poor fuel and had to be diluted down with real gas. The owners of
the ship were not impressed with the fact they were carrying ethanol either.
I guess we Newfoundlanders will have to be content to imbibe our ethanol
after flying... in Rum, Gin or Scotch. If we ever run out of that there is
always beer J.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of george
may
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Noel--
I do not know if you fly a rotax engine. It does not sound like you do. I
have been flying both two stroke and four stroke Rotax engines for about 8
years. Most of the flying has been in Maine and New Hampshire and we have
been using ethanol based fuels for at least have that time with no problems.
Not that I particularly wanted to used it but it was convienent.
I have never had a phase separation and I do fly year round. Altittudes are
usually 1500 to 6000 feet with a few flights at 9-10000 feet. In fact, I do
not know of anyone in this area experiencing what you are concerned about.
As is good preflight practice, I do check my sumps and gascolator before
each flight. The little water I see is usually due to condensation. I do
agree with you on the condensation possiblities, especially in the early
spring and fall in New England. Common practice is to keep the tanks topped
off to avoid the condensation.
Everyone has to evaluate their own issues for each flight, I just think
on this point you might be a bit over concerned, at least when dealing with
Rotax engines.
George may
601XL 912s
> From: noelloveys@yahoo.ca
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
gasoline
> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 20:25:40 -0230
>
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> Fortunately for you the chances you will see a phase separation in Arizona
> with all its rain, snow, fog and sleet I'd expect to be slim. Too bad the
> guys in Nova Scotia, Maine, Connecticut or Washington can't say the same.
>
> BTW when you do get a phase separation (E10) you will get no less than 10%
> of your fuel on board separate into water/eth from the gas... So if your
> plane has 20 gal aboard and you get a phase separation expect to see a bit
> over 2 gal of water in the bottom of your tanks right where the fuel
pickup
> is. That is one of the dangers of ethanol contaminated fuel there is
really
> no way, short of doing an on the spot titration, factoring in delta t
(temp)
> of determining how close you are to a phase separation... If you drip your
> tanks/sumps and get any water, you will get a lot of water. Maybe not
> enough to sink the Titanic but it will seem to be that much and sure as
> there is little green apples, you will get enough water/ethanol mix to
stop
> any infernal combustion engine.
>
> You might be amazed at how much moisture the eth will absorb in one cool
dew
> laden night Especially if the tanks are less than full.. In a week you
> could easily have enough to cause a phase separation. When you buy your
gas
> at the service station there is no way for you to check exactly how much
> moisture it contains. In other words its like a time bomb... It may never
> go off but if it does you have no way of telling when.
>
> If you use this crud in your car a good idea would be to keep the tank
> topped up at all times so there is much less space for condensation to
form.
> Also be sure to only by contaminated fuel from high volume outlets
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Lee
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:12 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
>
>
> Don't compare the Rotax 912 with other GA aircraft engines and with
ethanol.
> They are worlds apart.
> The water retention issue could be a factor, but not much of one. When at
> the higher altitudes (above 8'K, reference Rotax classes) there is a very
> slight possibility for a fuel alcohol/water separation or a vapor lock. It
> is a slight chance and there would have to be an awful lot of water to
fall
> out of that solution to stop the Rotax. This is due to different partial
> pressures of the overall fuel contents. Your fuel would have to be very
> saturated for that big a slug of water to come out all at once to stop the
> engine. Your Rotax can pass through small amounts at a time. If any of you
> are from the old backyard mechanics days they used to spray water into
auto
> carbs while they were running to help clean the system out. If you have
that
> much water in your fuel then your aren't running fresh fuel through your
> system often enough (i.e. older fuel), you aren't checking the low point
> drains or the gasolator and some how you have introduced water into the
fuel
> system (i.e. leavin!
> g it in the rain). I know water can get in the fuel because many live in
> humid areas, but this is where fresh fuel, running the engine more often
and
> checking the water content in the fuel during a preflight is important and
> was established.
> When using TCP just double check your compatibility with the fuel tank
> materials.
>
> Ethanol is a personal choice, but it can be used safely with education. It
> is not a demon as some believe. Just use it within its operating
parameters.
>
> Might as well get used to it more is coming our way.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182163#182163
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ======================
&g======
>
>
>
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Addition of even more alcohol will stave off phase separation a bit. The
question is how much extra to add and how much moisture is already in the
fuel? My idea is the answer is to that best not to have any moisture in the
fuel that precludes any alcohol in the gas.
I'll bet your A&P and the local FAA didn't know you were using alcohol in
your fuel... They would not have been impressed.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 9:51 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
As far as flying with Ethanol laced mogas at altitude, in the event the
Ethanol absorbed a reasonable amount of water to make it close to
saturated, whats thoughts on adding some pure Isopropyl alcohol? Would
that not ward off phase change a bit?
I owned a 1948 C-170, the right tank drain was not at absolute lowest
point due to fact that too much weld was used during addition of tank
drain. No matter how careful would raise a wing and let sit and drain,
after 3 hours of flying water droplets could (and did several times) make
their way into gasculator and quit motor for longer than I cared for.
Twice a year changing of O-Rings on fuel caps did not cure. Twice a year
changing of O-Rings and addition of 1.5 quarts (33 gallons of fuel) of
Isopropyl Alcohol if even 1 drop of water was found worked for me for 15
years.
Ron Parigoris
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