Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:41 AM - Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (henry.voris)
2. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (j. davis)
3. 05:48 AM - Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Thom Riddle)
4. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
5. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Ronald Steele)
6. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (John Cox)
7. 04:10 PM - AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem (Gtblu)
8. 07:19 PM - Re: AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
I had some questions about ethanol, fuel and Mr.Funnel, so I ran some tests...
I used two sample jars, each containing 1,000 cc of fuel (Gasoline/10% Ethanol).
***************************
Jar #1: I would add to the fuel 0.3 cc water. The water would form a small bead
at the bottom of the jar. I would shake the jar vigorously and the water would
dissolve, leaving the fuel a clear liquid.
I repeated this process 15 times... After adding a total of 4.5 cc's of water the
fuel became cloudy and began to show signs of phase separation. I continued
the water process twice more, (to 5.1 cc's) just to get a good phase separation
going.
After observing phase separation between the fuel and the ethanol/water, I shook
the jar vigorously to mix the whole mess up again and poured it through my Mr.Funnel.
I saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.
Shortly the concoction cleared and there was a big blob of ethanol/water at the
bottom of the fuel jar... It had passed right through my Mr.Funnel. Bummer...
The fuel from the trap looked the same as the fuel that had passed through the
filter, both had water at the bottom.
***************************
Jar #2: I added 4.0 cc (just 0.5 cc less than the amount needed to start phase
separation) of water to the fuel. The water formed a bead at the bottom of the
jar. I shook the jar vigorously and the water dissolved into the fuel leaving
it a clear liquid. I poured it through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from
the trap in a separate sample jar.
At sunset, some eight hours later the fuel was still crystal clear with no signs
of phase separation, no signs of the water I had put in. The temperature during
the day was between 70 and 75.
At 0500 the next morning the temperature was 55. And the fuel had separated. There
was a clear blob of ethanol/water rolling around the bottom of the fuel jar.
The fuel saved from Mr.Funnel's trap had separated also. The proportions of
junk to fuel in the jar and in the trap seemed to be the same, leading me to
believe the water passed through the filter with little to no restrictions.
***************************
I suspected that some of the moving parts in my Mr.Funnel were out of tune. I called
a pal and even though he flies a Quicksilver, I was able to borrow his Mr.Funnel.
I ran the above tests again, and I got the same results...
***************************
Conclusions:
Jar #1... Mr.Funnel will not separate the water from a "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix
that has suffered phase separation. Both the fuel and the water/ethanol sludge
pass through the filter.
Jar #2...
A. The "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix has the ability to absorb water in a way that
is visually undetectable.
B. The water absorbed in this fuel will pass through Mr.Funnel with the fuel.
C. Fuel that has absorbed sufficient water, can suffer phase separation by simply
lowering the temperature.
In short, it is possible to have fuel that appears to be good while on the ground.
It can be run through Mr.Funnel... But if it is used to fly... it could cool
enough to suffer phase separation in the tank. The unburnable ethanol/water
mess will sink to the bottom of the tank.
***************************
Reality Check:
A. In a perfect world... If you chose a gas station that moves a lot of fuel...
the odds of getting fuel with water is quite low. If the refinery to pump system
is tight, the ethanol should absorb any stray water as it moves through the
system. Thus the delivery system should contain no water at all.... I don't
live in a perfect world.
B. I will continue to use my Mr.Funnel to trap all the other junk I keep finding
in my fuel...
C. I ordered a gasolator.
***************************
Aloha,
Henry
Kolb FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo
--------
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182331#182331
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
rampil wrote:
> As for the fabled engine warranty, Rotax and every other engine
> manufacturer provides a warranty that is pretty close to worthless.
> They will assure that the engine runs when you get it (not when you
> finish your plane) and after that, practically speaking, forget it.
Actually, the Jabiru warranty starts at the independently verified first
*flight*!
--
Regards, J.
flying: Zenith STOL CH701/912 C-IGGY, 500 hrs.
building: Sonex #325 (C-FJNJ), Jabiru 3300/6, 99% completed
-------------------------------------------------
J. Davis, M.Sc. (computer science)
*NIX consulting, SysAdmin
email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca
voice: 519.289.1527 http://www.cleco.ca
c/o Brandywine Aviation 5507 Irish Dr., Appin, ON
N42 47.33 W081 36.50 31/13 2000+ x 60', elev: 740'
-------------------------------------------------
To most people the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Henry,
Your careful study is very much appreciated. Now you know why Type Certificated
Aircraft all have gascolators and they are also required by the ASTM standards
for SLSA.
Another variable worth noting in the E-10 vs pure gasoline vs 100LL is the energy
content and anti-knock qualities. See attached table. Note in particular the
following:
1. Not all alcohols are the same
2. E-10 has less energy content than pure gasoline
3. E-10 has slightly more energy content than 100LL
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182350#182350
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuels_120.jpg
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
The Mr funnel relies on a SG differential in between the
gasoline and water to remove the water. When you introduce ethanol into the
equation you will set up a phase relationship, not quite a solution, between
the ethanol, water and gas this phased liquid will pass right through a Mr.
Funnel.
If you are keeping track of the temperature in your hangar and only fly on
warm days. If you didn't get a phase separation overnight then you probably
won't get a phase separation while you are flying if you don't go near your
overnight low temperature.
I would be interested in finding out how large the water bubble that
separated out was. Knowing that you will know how much water to expect if
you get a separation in flight.
I'd try it here but we fortunately don't have any ethanol laced gas here....
I suppose I could make my own but the only place to buy pure ethanol is the
liquor commission and you have to have a viable reason to purchase it. I
don't think experimentation will cut it.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
henry.voris
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:08 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
<henry_voris@yahoo.com>
I had some questions about ethanol, fuel and Mr.Funnel, so I ran some
tests...
I used two sample jars, each containing 1,000 cc of fuel (Gasoline/10%
Ethanol).
***************************
Jar #1: I would add to the fuel 0.3 cc water. The water would form a small
bead at the bottom of the jar. I would shake the jar vigorously and the
water would dissolve, leaving the fuel a clear liquid.
I repeated this process 15 times... After adding a total of 4.5 cc's of
water the fuel became cloudy and began to show signs of phase separation. I
continued the water process twice more, (to 5.1 cc's) just to get a good
phase separation going.
After observing phase separation between the fuel and the ethanol/water, I
shook the jar vigorously to mix the whole mess up again and poured it
through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample
jar.
Shortly the concoction cleared and there was a big blob of ethanol/water at
the bottom of the fuel jar... It had passed right through my Mr.Funnel.
Bummer... The fuel from the trap looked the same as the fuel that had passed
through the filter, both had water at the bottom.
***************************
Jar #2: I added 4.0 cc (just 0.5 cc less than the amount needed to start
phase separation) of water to the fuel. The water formed a bead at the
bottom of the jar. I shook the jar vigorously and the water dissolved into
the fuel leaving it a clear liquid. I poured it through my Mr.Funnel. I
saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.
At sunset, some eight hours later the fuel was still crystal clear with no
signs of phase separation, no signs of the water I had put in. The
temperature during the day was between 70 and 75.
At 0500 the next morning the temperature was 55. And the fuel had
separated. There was a clear blob of ethanol/water rolling around the bottom
of the fuel jar. The fuel saved from Mr.Funnel's trap had separated also.
The proportions of junk to fuel in the jar and in the trap seemed to be the
same, leading me to believe the water passed through the filter with little
to no restrictions.
***************************
I suspected that some of the moving parts in my Mr.Funnel were out of tune.
I called a pal and even though he flies a Quicksilver, I was able to borrow
his Mr.Funnel. I ran the above tests again, and I got the same results...
***************************
Conclusions:
Jar #1... Mr.Funnel will not separate the water from a "Gasoline/10%
Ethanol" mix that has suffered phase separation. Both the fuel and the
water/ethanol sludge pass through the filter.
Jar #2...
A. The "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix has the ability to absorb water in a way
that is visually undetectable.
B. The water absorbed in this fuel will pass through Mr.Funnel with the
fuel.
C. Fuel that has absorbed sufficient water, can suffer phase separation by
simply lowering the temperature.
In short, it is possible to have fuel that appears to be good while on the
ground. It can be run through Mr.Funnel... But if it is used to fly... it
could cool enough to suffer phase separation in the tank. The unburnable
ethanol/water mess will sink to the bottom of the tank.
***************************
Reality Check:
A. In a perfect world... If you chose a gas station that moves a lot of
fuel... the odds of getting fuel with water is quite low. If the refinery to
pump system is tight, the ethanol should absorb any stray water as it moves
through the system. Thus the delivery system should contain no water at
all.... I don't live in a perfect world.
B. I will continue to use my Mr.Funnel to trap all the other junk I keep
finding in my fuel...
C. I ordered a gasolator.
***************************
Aloha,
Henry
Kolb FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo
--------
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182331#182331
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
This has been an interesting discussion. What I don't understand, is
that if E10 is as unstable as claimed, how do cars use it? I've had
a car with a 1/2 tank of E10 sitting in near or below freezing
weather for weeks in damp conditions - often - and never had the
slightest problem. I don't live on a mountain, but I've never heard
of people that do having any problems either. This just doesn't gibe
with what I'm reading here.
Something else, ethanol and water mixed is flammable up to 50% water
(the historical reason behind 100 proof liquor being 50% alcohol).
That's not to say it would run an engine, but perhaps it should be
factored into the thinking.
There are obvious risks running E10 in a plane, but there are also
risks running 100LL in a Rotax - like you don't really don't know
what the 100LL is doling to your PRSU - probably the least reliable
part of the whole plane.
Great discussion.
Ron
On May 10, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> The Mr funnel relies on a SG differential in between the
> gasoline and water to remove the water. When you introduce ethanol
> into the
> equation you will set up a phase relationship, not quite a
> solution, between
> the ethanol, water and gas this phased liquid will pass right
> through a Mr.
> Funnel.
>
> If you are keeping track of the temperature in your hangar and only
> fly on
> warm days. If you didn't get a phase separation overnight then you
> probably
> won't get a phase separation while you are flying if you don't go
> near your
> overnight low temperature.
>
> I would be interested in finding out how large the water bubble that
> separated out was. Knowing that you will know how much water to
> expect if
> you get a separation in flight.
>
> I'd try it here but we fortunately don't have any ethanol laced gas
> here....
> I suppose I could make my own but the only place to buy pure
> ethanol is the
> liquor commission and you have to have a viable reason to purchase
> it. I
> don't think experimentation will cut it.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> henry.voris
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:08 AM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
> gasoline
>
> <henry_voris@yahoo.com>
>
> I had some questions about ethanol, fuel and Mr.Funnel, so I ran some
> tests...
>
> I used two sample jars, each containing 1,000 cc of fuel (Gasoline/10%
> Ethanol).
>
> ***************************
>
> Jar #1: I would add to the fuel 0.3 cc water. The water would form
> a small
> bead at the bottom of the jar. I would shake the jar vigorously and
> the
> water would dissolve, leaving the fuel a clear liquid.
>
> I repeated this process 15 times... After adding a total of 4.5
> cc's of
> water the fuel became cloudy and began to show signs of phase
> separation. I
> continued the water process twice more, (to 5.1 cc's) just to get a
> good
> phase separation going.
>
> After observing phase separation between the fuel and the ethanol/
> water, I
> shook the jar vigorously to mix the whole mess up again and poured it
> through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from the trap in a
> separate sample
> jar.
>
> Shortly the concoction cleared and there was a big blob of ethanol/
> water at
> the bottom of the fuel jar... It had passed right through my
> Mr.Funnel.
> Bummer... The fuel from the trap looked the same as the fuel that
> had passed
> through the filter, both had water at the bottom.
> ***************************
>
> Jar #2: I added 4.0 cc (just 0.5 cc less than the amount needed to
> start
> phase separation) of water to the fuel. The water formed a bead at the
> bottom of the jar. I shook the jar vigorously and the water
> dissolved into
> the fuel leaving it a clear liquid. I poured it through my
> Mr.Funnel. I
> saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.
>
> At sunset, some eight hours later the fuel was still crystal clear
> with no
> signs of phase separation, no signs of the water I had put in. The
> temperature during the day was between 70 and 75.
>
> At 0500 the next morning the temperature was 55. And the fuel had
> separated. There was a clear blob of ethanol/water rolling around
> the bottom
> of the fuel jar. The fuel saved from Mr.Funnel's trap had separated
> also.
> The proportions of junk to fuel in the jar and in the trap seemed
> to be the
> same, leading me to believe the water passed through the filter
> with little
> to no restrictions.
> ***************************
>
> I suspected that some of the moving parts in my Mr.Funnel were out
> of tune.
> I called a pal and even though he flies a Quicksilver, I was able
> to borrow
> his Mr.Funnel. I ran the above tests again, and I got the same
> results...
> ***************************
>
> Conclusions:
>
> Jar #1... Mr.Funnel will not separate the water from a "Gasoline/10%
> Ethanol" mix that has suffered phase separation. Both the fuel and the
> water/ethanol sludge pass through the filter.
>
>
> Jar #2...
>
> A. The "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix has the ability to absorb water
> in a way
> that is visually undetectable.
>
> B. The water absorbed in this fuel will pass through Mr.Funnel with
> the
> fuel.
>
> C. Fuel that has absorbed sufficient water, can suffer phase
> separation by
> simply lowering the temperature.
> In short, it is possible to have fuel that appears to be good while
> on the
> ground. It can be run through Mr.Funnel... But if it is used to
> fly... it
> could cool enough to suffer phase separation in the tank. The
> unburnable
> ethanol/water mess will sink to the bottom of the tank.
> ***************************
>
> Reality Check:
>
> A. In a perfect world... If you chose a gas station that moves a
> lot of
> fuel... the odds of getting fuel with water is quite low. If the
> refinery to
> pump system is tight, the ethanol should absorb any stray water as
> it moves
> through the system. Thus the delivery system should contain no
> water at
> all.... I don't live in a perfect world.
>
> B. I will continue to use my Mr.Funnel to trap all the other junk I
> keep
> finding in my fuel...
>
> C. I ordered a gasolator.
> ***************************
>
> Aloha,
> Henry
> Kolb FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
> --------
> Henry
> Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182331#182331
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Parts which are still used in aircraft with a more primitive and yet
reliable ignition system couple to make use of Ethanol in aircraft a
"non FAA approved activity". Automobiles have replaced products
susceptible to ethanol damage and use sophisticated computer programming
for temperature, load and atmospherics to correct timing for
aberrations.
Aircraft fly at altitudes and in environments not suitable for
automobiles. When the auto suffers from too much contaminate, it starts
fouling plugs and the driver pulls over to the side of the road - then
calls a tow truck. The Reid pressure values are different and hence
greater likelihood of detonation, fuel system icing or vapor lock.
Lead contamination from 100LL used at less than 50% concentrations to
MOGAS has a calculated need for maintenance. I would not characterize
it as a risk. It is a known and ROTAX has factored it. Ethanol is an
unknown/variable and Phase Shift is a real phenomena. The difficulty
with aircraft is that the shelf life of 100LL is far greater than MOGAS.
MOGAS spoils. With the high volume at an auto pump versus a relatively
low volume at an airport near you, the risk from moisture is
geometrically greater. For those pilots flying classic aircraft with
EAA or Peterson STCs, they know the FAA does not approve of any presence
of ethanol. Their STC by choice of ethanol becomes invalidated. Regular
fuel testing is a requirement.
Oregon has discounted the significance of those pilots and mandated
ethanol into the entire delivery system. This year is going to show
those willing to wait the risks at running with ethanol. Be patient, it
is a known.
John
VP Legislative Affairs - Oregon Pilots Association (and blamed for the
passage of this poor legislation)
ROTAX certified technician
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Ronald Steele
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
gasoline
<rsteele@rjsit.com>
This has been an interesting discussion. What I don't understand, is
that if E10 is as unstable as claimed, how do cars use it? I've had
a car with a 1/2 tank of E10 sitting in near or below freezing
weather for weeks in damp conditions - often - and never had the
slightest problem. I don't live on a mountain, but I've never heard
of people that do having any problems either. This just doesn't gibe
with what I'm reading here.
Something else, ethanol and water mixed is flammable up to 50% water
(the historical reason behind 100 proof liquor being 50% alcohol).
That's not to say it would run an engine, but perhaps it should be
factored into the thinking.
There are obvious risks running E10 in a plane, but there are also
risks running 100LL in a Rotax - like you don't really don't know
what the 100LL is doling to your PRSU - probably the least reliable
part of the whole plane.
Great discussion.
Ron
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem |
There was no question Guy about mine having a slipper clutch. It was installed
after 50 hours on the clock.
Cheers
Gtblu
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182407#182407
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem |
At 04:07 PM 5/10/2008, you wrote:
>There was no question Guy about mine having a slipper clutch. It was
>installed after 50 hours on the clock.
>Cheers
>Gtblu
OK, good. I just couldn't remember if you'd checked that.
Unfortunately it leaves me out of ideas. Good luck!
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|