Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:09 AM - AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem (Thom Riddle)
2. 04:44 AM - Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Catz631@aol.com)
3. 05:01 AM - Continental engine (Catz631@aol.com)
4. 05:53 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
5. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
6. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (John Cox)
7. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (John Cox)
8. 08:45 AM - Re: Continental engine (rampil)
9. 09:45 AM - Re: Re: Continental engine (knowvne@aol.com)
10. 12:10 PM - Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (henry.voris)
11. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline (Noel Loveys)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: AW: Re: 912 with low RPM--- new vibration problem |
Have you thoroughly inspected the engine mount? Any looseness or crack at any point
in the engine mount could allow a small normal vibration amplify itself.
This would be an urgent safety issue too.
--------
Thom Riddle
N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL
N197BG FS1/447
--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I
have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182458#182458
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Henry,
Thanks for the excellent testing you did. You gave a lot of insight into the
relationship of alcohol and water. Nothing beats a backyard test in my book!
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,Fl
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Continental engine |
I spoke with a man yesterday at our annual airpark pissing contest(excuse me
-meeting) He is one of the team developing the new Continental O-200 in
Mobile. He mentioned that they are continuing to shed weight in the engine and
it
would soon be close to Rotax territory in weight (he mentioned they have lopped
off around 30lbs) They still are using mags on the certified version but some
builders are using CDI on the experimental versions and possible fuel
injection to come. The neat thing about this is the experimental engine should
sell
in the $16,000-$17000 territory. With the dollar falling and Rotax going out of
sight this might be an option one day. I know I would rather have the O-200.
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
Rotax 912UL
Pensacola,Fl
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Cars now have sealed fuel systems.. That's why they have the warning on the
fuel cap to remove slowly... Planes don't. If you get old fuel or there is
a leak into your gas stations tank which allows a bit of water into the
underground storage facilities you can get a phase separation over a cold
night. In a car , no problem, maybe a little walking. In a plane... keep
up on forced approaches.
As for vapour lock. Aircraft engines tend to live at better than 75% power
for hours at a time. Even in the mountains cars won't run at 75% power for
more than two or three minutes at a time. The other factor is just how many
roads run for miles at better than 10,000 feet? As you can see your
airplane engine lives in a completely different environment than your car.
I've had a phase separation in a snowmobile... believe me it won't burn.
To burn in an engine I believe the minimum is 150 proof, around 75% by
volume.
Certainly the 9xx series Rotax engines share oil with the PSRU and the Lead
is definitely not good for it. The Rotax two strike engines have roller
bearings on the crank shaft and lead can plate out on to the roller bearings
and cause the main bearings to fail... Bad news!
Instead of rolling over and saying this is just something else we have to
live with we should be lobbying every which way we can for a clean supply of
non lead fuel for planes. Twenty years or more ago that's what they did
with the introduction of 100LL for certified aircraft.
Hope this helps.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald
Steele
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
This has been an interesting discussion. What I don't understand, is
that if E10 is as unstable as claimed, how do cars use it? I've had
a car with a 1/2 tank of E10 sitting in near or below freezing
weather for weeks in damp conditions - often - and never had the
slightest problem. I don't live on a mountain, but I've never heard
of people that do having any problems either. This just doesn't gibe
with what I'm reading here.
Something else, ethanol and water mixed is flammable up to 50% water
(the historical reason behind 100 proof liquor being 50% alcohol).
That's not to say it would run an engine, but perhaps it should be
factored into the thinking.
There are obvious risks running E10 in a plane, but there are also
risks running 100LL in a Rotax - like you don't really don't know
what the 100LL is doling to your PRSU - probably the least reliable
part of the whole plane.
Great discussion.
Ron
On May 10, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> The Mr funnel relies on a SG differential in between the
> gasoline and water to remove the water. When you introduce ethanol
> into the
> equation you will set up a phase relationship, not quite a
> solution, between
> the ethanol, water and gas this phased liquid will pass right
> through a Mr.
> Funnel.
>
> If you are keeping track of the temperature in your hangar and only
> fly on
> warm days. If you didn't get a phase separation overnight then you
> probably
> won't get a phase separation while you are flying if you don't go
> near your
> overnight low temperature.
>
> I would be interested in finding out how large the water bubble that
> separated out was. Knowing that you will know how much water to
> expect if
> you get a separation in flight.
>
> I'd try it here but we fortunately don't have any ethanol laced gas
> here....
> I suppose I could make my own but the only place to buy pure
> ethanol is the
> liquor commission and you have to have a viable reason to purchase
> it. I
> don't think experimentation will cut it.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> henry.voris
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:08 AM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
> gasoline
>
> <henry_voris@yahoo.com>
>
> I had some questions about ethanol, fuel and Mr.Funnel, so I ran some
> tests...
>
> I used two sample jars, each containing 1,000 cc of fuel (Gasoline/10%
> Ethanol).
>
> ***************************
>
> Jar #1: I would add to the fuel 0.3 cc water. The water would form
> a small
> bead at the bottom of the jar. I would shake the jar vigorously and
> the
> water would dissolve, leaving the fuel a clear liquid.
>
> I repeated this process 15 times... After adding a total of 4.5
> cc's of
> water the fuel became cloudy and began to show signs of phase
> separation. I
> continued the water process twice more, (to 5.1 cc's) just to get a
> good
> phase separation going.
>
> After observing phase separation between the fuel and the ethanol/
> water, I
> shook the jar vigorously to mix the whole mess up again and poured it
> through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from the trap in a
> separate sample
> jar.
>
> Shortly the concoction cleared and there was a big blob of ethanol/
> water at
> the bottom of the fuel jar... It had passed right through my
> Mr.Funnel.
> Bummer... The fuel from the trap looked the same as the fuel that
> had passed
> through the filter, both had water at the bottom.
> ***************************
>
> Jar #2: I added 4.0 cc (just 0.5 cc less than the amount needed to
> start
> phase separation) of water to the fuel. The water formed a bead at the
> bottom of the jar. I shook the jar vigorously and the water
> dissolved into
> the fuel leaving it a clear liquid. I poured it through my
> Mr.Funnel. I
> saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.
>
> At sunset, some eight hours later the fuel was still crystal clear
> with no
> signs of phase separation, no signs of the water I had put in. The
> temperature during the day was between 70 and 75.
>
> At 0500 the next morning the temperature was 55. And the fuel had
> separated. There was a clear blob of ethanol/water rolling around
> the bottom
> of the fuel jar. The fuel saved from Mr.Funnel's trap had separated
> also.
> The proportions of junk to fuel in the jar and in the trap seemed
> to be the
> same, leading me to believe the water passed through the filter
> with little
> to no restrictions.
> ***************************
>
> I suspected that some of the moving parts in my Mr.Funnel were out
> of tune.
> I called a pal and even though he flies a Quicksilver, I was able
> to borrow
> his Mr.Funnel. I ran the above tests again, and I got the same
> results...
> ***************************
>
> Conclusions:
>
> Jar #1... Mr.Funnel will not separate the water from a "Gasoline/10%
> Ethanol" mix that has suffered phase separation. Both the fuel and the
> water/ethanol sludge pass through the filter.
>
>
> Jar #2...
>
> A. The "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix has the ability to absorb water
> in a way
> that is visually undetectable.
>
> B. The water absorbed in this fuel will pass through Mr.Funnel with
> the
> fuel.
>
> C. Fuel that has absorbed sufficient water, can suffer phase
> separation by
> simply lowering the temperature.
> In short, it is possible to have fuel that appears to be good while
> on the
> ground. It can be run through Mr.Funnel... But if it is used to
> fly... it
> could cool enough to suffer phase separation in the tank. The
> unburnable
> ethanol/water mess will sink to the bottom of the tank.
> ***************************
>
> Reality Check:
>
> A. In a perfect world... If you chose a gas station that moves a
> lot of
> fuel... the odds of getting fuel with water is quite low. If the
> refinery to
> pump system is tight, the ethanol should absorb any stray water as
> it moves
> through the system. Thus the delivery system should contain no
> water at
> all.... I don't live in a perfect world.
>
> B. I will continue to use my Mr.Funnel to trap all the other junk I
> keep
> finding in my fuel...
>
> C. I ordered a gasolator.
> ***************************
>
> Aloha,
> Henry
> Kolb FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
> --------
> Henry
> Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182331#182331
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Well laid out, well said!
It doesn't sound like you were in any way responsible for the legislation.
Increased lobbying is the only answer I can see. In the short term make
fuels sold at airports, not accessible to road traffic and not applicable to
aircraft. In the long term junk the whole idea of ethanol as an alternative
fuel.
What I can see is, after a few fatalities, states may outlaw the use of
MOGAS in any aircraft. In other words get caught with MOGAS in your planes
tank after an accident and your insurance, life insurance and or drivers
license is cancelled. To protect themselves I understand several gasoline
outlets already have pump signs up, "Not for aviation use."
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Parts which are still used in aircraft with a more primitive and yet
reliable ignition system couple to make use of Ethanol in aircraft a
"non FAA approved activity". Automobiles have replaced products
susceptible to ethanol damage and use sophisticated computer programming
for temperature, load and atmospherics to correct timing for
aberrations.
Aircraft fly at altitudes and in environments not suitable for
automobiles. When the auto suffers from too much contaminate, it starts
fouling plugs and the driver pulls over to the side of the road - then
calls a tow truck. The Reid pressure values are different and hence
greater likelihood of detonation, fuel system icing or vapor lock.
Lead contamination from 100LL used at less than 50% concentrations to
MOGAS has a calculated need for maintenance. I would not characterize
it as a risk. It is a known and ROTAX has factored it. Ethanol is an
unknown/variable and Phase Shift is a real phenomena. The difficulty
with aircraft is that the shelf life of 100LL is far greater than MOGAS.
MOGAS spoils. With the high volume at an auto pump versus a relatively
low volume at an airport near you, the risk from moisture is
geometrically greater. For those pilots flying classic aircraft with
EAA or Peterson STCs, they know the FAA does not approve of any presence
of ethanol. Their STC by choice of ethanol becomes invalidated. Regular
fuel testing is a requirement.
Oregon has discounted the significance of those pilots and mandated
ethanol into the entire delivery system. This year is going to show
those willing to wait the risks at running with ethanol. Be patient, it
is a known.
John
VP Legislative Affairs - Oregon Pilots Association (and blamed for the
passage of this poor legislation)
ROTAX certified technician
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Ronald Steele
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
gasoline
<rsteele@rjsit.com>
This has been an interesting discussion. What I don't understand, is
that if E10 is as unstable as claimed, how do cars use it? I've had
a car with a 1/2 tank of E10 sitting in near or below freezing
weather for weeks in damp conditions - often - and never had the
slightest problem. I don't live on a mountain, but I've never heard
of people that do having any problems either. This just doesn't gibe
with what I'm reading here.
Something else, ethanol and water mixed is flammable up to 50% water
(the historical reason behind 100 proof liquor being 50% alcohol).
That's not to say it would run an engine, but perhaps it should be
factored into the thinking.
There are obvious risks running E10 in a plane, but there are also
risks running 100LL in a Rotax - like you don't really don't know
what the 100LL is doling to your PRSU - probably the least reliable
part of the whole plane.
Great discussion.
Ron
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
The request in Oregon through the Department of Agriculture was a complete exemption
of ethanol in Unleaded 92 Octane Mogas - Premium. The oil lobby said 100%
distribution of ethanol or no deal. The 92 exemption was supported by auto
collectors, STC aviators, classic boat owners, recreators and First Responders
across the board.
Next year is a new legislature.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:51 AM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Cars now have sealed fuel systems.. That's why they have the warning on the
fuel cap to remove slowly... Planes don't. If you get old fuel or there is
a leak into your gas stations tank which allows a bit of water into the
underground storage facilities you can get a phase separation over a cold
night. In a car , no problem, maybe a little walking. In a plane... keep
up on forced approaches.
As for vapour lock. Aircraft engines tend to live at better than 75% power
for hours at a time. Even in the mountains cars won't run at 75% power for
more than two or three minutes at a time. The other factor is just how many
roads run for miles at better than 10,000 feet? As you can see your
airplane engine lives in a completely different environment than your car.
I've had a phase separation in a snowmobile... believe me it won't burn.
To burn in an engine I believe the minimum is 150 proof, around 75% by
volume.
Certainly the 9xx series Rotax engines share oil with the PSRU and the Lead
is definitely not good for it. The Rotax two strike engines have roller
bearings on the crank shaft and lead can plate out on to the roller bearings
and cause the main bearings to fail... Bad news!
Instead of rolling over and saying this is just something else we have to
live with we should be lobbying every which way we can for a clean supply of
non lead fuel for planes. Twenty years or more ago that's what they did
with the introduction of 100LL for certified aircraft.
Hope this helps.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald
Steele
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
This has been an interesting discussion. What I don't understand, is
that if E10 is as unstable as claimed, how do cars use it? I've had
a car with a 1/2 tank of E10 sitting in near or below freezing
weather for weeks in damp conditions - often - and never had the
slightest problem. I don't live on a mountain, but I've never heard
of people that do having any problems either. This just doesn't gibe
with what I'm reading here.
Something else, ethanol and water mixed is flammable up to 50% water
(the historical reason behind 100 proof liquor being 50% alcohol).
That's not to say it would run an engine, but perhaps it should be
factored into the thinking.
There are obvious risks running E10 in a plane, but there are also
risks running 100LL in a Rotax - like you don't really don't know
what the 100LL is doling to your PRSU - probably the least reliable
part of the whole plane.
Great discussion.
Ron
On May 10, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> The Mr funnel relies on a SG differential in between the
> gasoline and water to remove the water. When you introduce ethanol
> into the
> equation you will set up a phase relationship, not quite a
> solution, between
> the ethanol, water and gas this phased liquid will pass right
> through a Mr.
> Funnel.
>
> If you are keeping track of the temperature in your hangar and only
> fly on
> warm days. If you didn't get a phase separation overnight then you
> probably
> won't get a phase separation while you are flying if you don't go
> near your
> overnight low temperature.
>
> I would be interested in finding out how large the water bubble that
> separated out was. Knowing that you will know how much water to
> expect if
> you get a separation in flight.
>
> I'd try it here but we fortunately don't have any ethanol laced gas
> here....
> I suppose I could make my own but the only place to buy pure
> ethanol is the
> liquor commission and you have to have a viable reason to purchase
> it. I
> don't think experimentation will cut it.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> henry.voris
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:08 AM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
> gasoline
>
> <henry_voris@yahoo.com>
>
> I had some questions about ethanol, fuel and Mr.Funnel, so I ran some
> tests...
>
> I used two sample jars, each containing 1,000 cc of fuel (Gasoline/10%
> Ethanol).
>
> ***************************
>
> Jar #1: I would add to the fuel 0.3 cc water. The water would form
> a small
> bead at the bottom of the jar. I would shake the jar vigorously and
> the
> water would dissolve, leaving the fuel a clear liquid.
>
> I repeated this process 15 times... After adding a total of 4.5
> cc's of
> water the fuel became cloudy and began to show signs of phase
> separation. I
> continued the water process twice more, (to 5.1 cc's) just to get a
> good
> phase separation going.
>
> After observing phase separation between the fuel and the ethanol/
> water, I
> shook the jar vigorously to mix the whole mess up again and poured it
> through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from the trap in a
> separate sample
> jar.
>
> Shortly the concoction cleared and there was a big blob of ethanol/
> water at
> the bottom of the fuel jar... It had passed right through my
> Mr.Funnel.
> Bummer... The fuel from the trap looked the same as the fuel that
> had passed
> through the filter, both had water at the bottom.
> ***************************
>
> Jar #2: I added 4.0 cc (just 0.5 cc less than the amount needed to
> start
> phase separation) of water to the fuel. The water formed a bead at the
> bottom of the jar. I shook the jar vigorously and the water
> dissolved into
> the fuel leaving it a clear liquid. I poured it through my
> Mr.Funnel. I
> saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.
>
> At sunset, some eight hours later the fuel was still crystal clear
> with no
> signs of phase separation, no signs of the water I had put in. The
> temperature during the day was between 70 and 75.
>
> At 0500 the next morning the temperature was 55. And the fuel had
> separated. There was a clear blob of ethanol/water rolling around
> the bottom
> of the fuel jar. The fuel saved from Mr.Funnel's trap had separated
> also.
> The proportions of junk to fuel in the jar and in the trap seemed
> to be the
> same, leading me to believe the water passed through the filter
> with little
> to no restrictions.
> ***************************
>
> I suspected that some of the moving parts in my Mr.Funnel were out
> of tune.
> I called a pal and even though he flies a Quicksilver, I was able
> to borrow
> his Mr.Funnel. I ran the above tests again, and I got the same
> results...
> ***************************
>
> Conclusions:
>
> Jar #1... Mr.Funnel will not separate the water from a "Gasoline/10%
> Ethanol" mix that has suffered phase separation. Both the fuel and the
> water/ethanol sludge pass through the filter.
>
>
> Jar #2...
>
> A. The "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix has the ability to absorb water
> in a way
> that is visually undetectable.
>
> B. The water absorbed in this fuel will pass through Mr.Funnel with
> the
> fuel.
>
> C. Fuel that has absorbed sufficient water, can suffer phase
> separation by
> simply lowering the temperature.
> In short, it is possible to have fuel that appears to be good while
> on the
> ground. It can be run through Mr.Funnel... But if it is used to
> fly... it
> could cool enough to suffer phase separation in the tank. The
> unburnable
> ethanol/water mess will sink to the bottom of the tank.
> ***************************
>
> Reality Check:
>
> A. In a perfect world... If you chose a gas station that moves a
> lot of
> fuel... the odds of getting fuel with water is quite low. If the
> refinery to
> pump system is tight, the ethanol should absorb any stray water as
> it moves
> through the system. Thus the delivery system should contain no
> water at
> all.... I don't live in a perfect world.
>
> B. I will continue to use my Mr.Funnel to trap all the other junk I
> keep
> finding in my fuel...
>
> C. I ordered a gasolator.
> ***************************
>
> Aloha,
> Henry
> Kolb FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
> --------
> Henry
> Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182331#182331
>
>
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
They wanted a dog to kick and every legislator that vote AYE wanted to
hide. This was a bill that was introduced by the Governor in 2005 and
soundly defeated. He snuck it through in the 2007 Bi-ennium and now it
is policy.
Lobby, lobby, lobby.
Traveling through Oregon in 2008, aviators should diligently monitor
fuel quality. Stay Safe.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 7:22 AM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
gasoline
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Well laid out, well said!
It doesn't sound like you were in any way responsible for the
legislation.
Increased lobbying is the only answer I can see. In the short term make
fuels sold at airports, not accessible to road traffic and not
applicable to
aircraft. In the long term junk the whole idea of ethanol as an
alternative
fuel.
What I can see is, after a few fatalities, states may outlaw the use of
MOGAS in any aircraft. In other words get caught with MOGAS in your
planes
tank after an accident and your insurance, life insurance and or drivers
license is cancelled. To protect themselves I understand several
gasoline
outlets already have pump signs up, "Not for aviation use."
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Cox
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
gasoline
<johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Parts which are still used in aircraft with a more primitive and yet
reliable ignition system couple to make use of Ethanol in aircraft a
"non FAA approved activity". Automobiles have replaced products
susceptible to ethanol damage and use sophisticated computer programming
for temperature, load and atmospherics to correct timing for
aberrations.
Aircraft fly at altitudes and in environments not suitable for
automobiles. When the auto suffers from too much contaminate, it starts
fouling plugs and the driver pulls over to the side of the road - then
calls a tow truck. The Reid pressure values are different and hence
greater likelihood of detonation, fuel system icing or vapor lock.
Lead contamination from 100LL used at less than 50% concentrations to
MOGAS has a calculated need for maintenance. I would not characterize
it as a risk. It is a known and ROTAX has factored it. Ethanol is an
unknown/variable and Phase Shift is a real phenomena. The difficulty
with aircraft is that the shelf life of 100LL is far greater than MOGAS.
MOGAS spoils. With the high volume at an auto pump versus a relatively
low volume at an airport near you, the risk from moisture is
geometrically greater. For those pilots flying classic aircraft with
EAA or Peterson STCs, they know the FAA does not approve of any presence
of ethanol. Their STC by choice of ethanol becomes invalidated. Regular
fuel testing is a requirement.
Oregon has discounted the significance of those pilots and mandated
ethanol into the entire delivery system. This year is going to show
those willing to wait the risks at running with ethanol. Be patient, it
is a known.
John
VP Legislative Affairs - Oregon Pilots Association (and blamed for the
passage of this poor legislation)
ROTAX certified technician
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Ronald Steele
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended
gasoline
<rsteele@rjsit.com>
This has been an interesting discussion. What I don't understand, is
that if E10 is as unstable as claimed, how do cars use it? I've had
a car with a 1/2 tank of E10 sitting in near or below freezing
weather for weeks in damp conditions - often - and never had the
slightest problem. I don't live on a mountain, but I've never heard
of people that do having any problems either. This just doesn't gibe
with what I'm reading here.
Something else, ethanol and water mixed is flammable up to 50% water
(the historical reason behind 100 proof liquor being 50% alcohol).
That's not to say it would run an engine, but perhaps it should be
factored into the thinking.
There are obvious risks running E10 in a plane, but there are also
risks running 100LL in a Rotax - like you don't really don't know
what the 100LL is doling to your PRSU - probably the least reliable
part of the whole plane.
Great discussion.
Ron
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Continental engine |
I wonder if the O-200D is still going to use rubber and cork gaskets
that make its older brother allergic to ethanol?
PS, the word from Wall St. is that the dollar has finally started its
long climb back against the Euro.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182490#182490
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Continental engine |
Lets hope its using a Strong Rope and likes Expresso hahahahaha 8-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: rampil <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, 11 May 2008 11:43 am
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Continental engine
I wonder if the O-200D is still going to use rubber and cork gaskets
that make its older brother allergic to ethanol?
PS, the word from Wall St. is that the dollar has finally started its
long climb back against the Euro.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182490#182490
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Noel
You Asked... "I would be interested in finding out how large the water bubble that
separated out was. Knowing that you will know how much water to expect if
you get a separation in flight."
I would like to reproduce the test in such a way that I could answer your question.
But I ran the tests some six months ago (for a thread that was running on
the Kolb List) in the wide-open spaces of rural Maui, where I could slosh and
spill fuel with abandon. An illness in the family has caused me to temporally
relocate to a high-rise in Gotham (Honolulu)... I simply do not have an area
where I can reproduce the test. With out a sample to accurately measure... I estimate
the water/ethanol bubble at the bottom of the jar was about 5% of the
total volume. That's an eye-ball estimate... your mileage may vary... As my FireFly
sucks fuel from the bottom of the tank, it's more than enough to bring on
that sudden sound of silence and the wind whistling through the rigging...
As for flogging your state law makers into making un-adulterated fuel available...
Good Luck. The oil companies (paymasters of the law makers) hate the idea.
It cost them money to set up a separate system, with no extra profit, just to
save the lives of a hand full of effete (learned that word from Spiro) pilots.
We got it through in Hawaii, not because of pilots efforts but because of tens
of thousands of pissed-off fishermen whose boats were conking out just over
the horizon. Personally, Im in favor of Johns idea of dog kicking
Aloha
--------
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182534#182534
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
Thanks for the reply Henry.
I happen to live in Newfoundland where we can still do a lot of things
with reckless abandon. We have antipollution laws here but at the
present tine no one is checking. There are a few cars still on the
road that bootleg a little 100LL for their big block engines.
Just to let you know all engines take their fuel from the bottom of the
tank so be it a PWC, a snowmobile or an airplane water will result in
deafening silence.
Newfoundland is an island off the east coast of Canada. About 1500 mi
NE of New York. We don=99t grow any crops here that would be used
to make ethanol and the chances that our provincial government will
bring in such an asinine law when we own the North Atlantic petroleum
resources is less than slim. I only wish I could say the same thing for
the rest of the country. In the pas two years one company did send some
E5 here. Apparently when the shippers found out waht was in the gas
they refused to ship the contaminated fuel again. It does wonders for
tankers.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
henry.voris
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:38 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
<henry_voris@yahoo.com>
Noel
You Asked... "I would be interested in finding out how large the water
bubble that separated out was. Knowing that you will know how much water
to expect if you get a separation in flight."
I would like to reproduce the test in such a way that I could answer
your question. But I ran the tests some six months ago (for a thread
that was running on the Kolb List) in the wide-open spaces of rural
Maui, where I could slosh and spill fuel with abandon. An illness in the
family has caused me to temporally relocate to a high-rise in Gotham
(Honolulu)... I simply do not have an area where I can reproduce the
test. With out a sample to accurately measure... I estimate the
water/ethanol bubble at the bottom of the jar was about 5% of the total
volume. That's an eye-ball estimate... your mileage may vary... As my
FireFly sucks fuel from the bottom of the tank, it's more than enough to
bring on that sudden sound of silence and the wind whistling through the
rigging...
As for flogging your state law makers into making un-adulterated fuel
available... Good Luck. The oil companies (paymasters of the law makers)
hate the idea. It cost them money to set up a separate system, with no
extra profit, just to save the lives of a hand full of effete (learned
that word from Spiro) pilots. We got it through in Hawaii, not because
of pilot=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s efforts but because of tens of
thousands of pissed-off fishermen whose boats were conking out just over
the horizon. Personally, I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m in favor of
John=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s idea of =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93dog
kicking=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=C2
Aloha
--------
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182534#182534
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