---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/19/08: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:29 AM - Re: Strategies for car gas at the airport (Matt Tucciarone) 2. 07:29 AM - Re: 10% ethanol in 912s (lucien) 3. 10:38 AM - Re: 10% ethanol in 912s (Roger Lee) 4. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: 10% ethanol in 912s () 5. 06:58 PM - Erratic CHT reading on Rotax 912 (Les Goldner) 6. 10:49 PM - Re: Erratic CHT reading on Rotax 912 (Craig Payne) 7. 11:06 PM - Re: Erratic CHT reading on Rotax 912 (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:42 AM PST US From: "Matt Tucciarone" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Strategies for car gas at the airport I forgot where I saw it but there is a kit out there that hooks to your fuel system with it's own pump and the sales pitch is, never bring a can to the gas station again. Fill you lawn mower from your car. I thought about buying it but I don't use high octane in my cars and that off course is what my 912uls uses. At 01:51 PM 7/16/2008, you wrote: >How do others do this? One idea is to just fill the car and pump gas from >the car's tank. But I think there is an anti-siphon/theft device on most car >tank filler necks. > >-- Craig Here is a method I have been thinking about for getting fuel from your autos tank to the aircraft. There is a schreder valve on the fuel rail on a lot of vehicles where you can drain the fuel tank from if you can get the fuel pump running. The fuel pump is controlled by a relay sometimes in the box of electrical stuff on the front fender. I used this method on my mothers car last winter when she filled it up on the farm from the diesel tank instead of the gas tank. I took the cap of the schreder valve and the valve stem out. Then located the fuel pump relay by feeling which one was clicking when the fuel pump came on when the key was turned on. I jammed a piece of tight fitting hose over the valve and ran it into 5 gallon pails. There is a wiring diagram on the little Bosch relays that shows which terminal goes to the fuel pump and a jumper was ran to this terminal from a 12 v terminal post that was right near by in the box. It was not timed but it was less than 15 minutes to get it all pumped out (15 - 20) gallons. With the right kind of hose and proper hose end and maybe a wired in switch to start the pump up with the engine off, this may be an option. J Pollard ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:42 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 10% ethanol in 912s From: "lucien" E10 has arrived here in northern NM as well, but due to my altitude, I'm inclined to run either a blend of the E10 and 100LL or 100LL all the time. The pure autogas never gave problems with vapor lock, but I don't know how the E10 will fare at 8 to 10,000 feet.... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193774#193774 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:01 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 10% ethanol in 912s From: "Roger Lee" Hi LS, The 8k-10k shouldn't be a problem depending on the outside temp and under the cowl temps. If it is not a really hot day and you don't have a lot of heat under the cowling you should be ok. I have flown like many others at those altitudes with ethanol, but I try to keep track of the critical temps that may point to any problem. Engines in general use ethanol in fuel for all types of vehicles at elevations higher than 8k-10k. That said anything could happen under the right circumstances. Many Rotax owners have been forced to run 91 oct. with ethanol. For me personally the ethanol is a lesser evil than 100LL, but this is a personal decision. If you have to run or just want to run 100LL then I would suggest using Decalin fuel additive for the leading. Decalin is much safer and less harsh than TCP. It can be purchased through Aircraft Spruce. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193790#193790 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 10% ethanol in 912s From: > If you have to run or just want to run 100LL then I would suggest using Decalin fuel additive for the leading. Decalin is much safer and less harsh than TCP. It can be purchased through Aircraft Spruce. I am not flying my 914 powered Europa yet, but I did purchase some Decalin to "get the lead out" from the nice gent who owns the company direct. He told me the Rotax only needs to use half that of large bore Cont. or Lyc.! He was supposed to by now be adding a substance to his brew to get out the yellow deposits of combustion chamber (I forget the exact name of what his chemical produces when it combines with lead, perhaps lead phosphate??) but anyway new additive is supposed to help get that out. Above off topic a bit, what I really wanted to say is he also sells a tool/kit to measure vapor pressure! It gives you a read out of what altitude you are safe to! It will take into consideration any mixture of 100LL, Mogas or ethanol and reads on the dial safe, warning, or "look out below" (Danger). I don't see it on his website at the moment but worth a call: http://www.decalinchemicals.com/ I also don't see the decarb get the yellow out anymore but here is the link, he may just brew this in mix now: http://www.decalinchemicals.com/DeeCarb.html In my archives: Chris Lowery of Decalin sells a fuel volatility tester (as well as other good fuel handling chemicals), so you can confirm the vapor pressure of whatever fuel you are using http://www.decalinchemicals.com/ Some more arcive info to bore you with: Ron, Let me see if I can answer your question more directly. Decalin RunUp is designed to react with lead and prevent deposits in the combustion chamber. The fact that the lead is now lead phosphate and not lead oxide still does not change the fact that the compound exiting the combustion chamber contains lead. Lead oxide is partially conductive and lead phosphate is non conductive, so any deposits that accumulate on the oxygen sensor should be less poisonous to the sensor. That is about as far as I can go, I suggest that the sensor is cleaned of any deposits. Yes, Decalin RunUp does contain the combustion chamber cleanup compound (PEA), which I described it in the previous post. I would still recommend cleaning the Oxygen sensor on a regular basis. Hope this answers your question, Regards, Chris Lowery Pres Decalin Chemicals LLC ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: Re: TCP Alternative > Hello Chris > > Thx. for the reply. > > I am still not sure my question got answered? Have you added PEA in the > last year to remove lead phosphate from the combustion chamber? > > Your site states: > "Make sure you remove and clean your oxygen sensor every 20 hours to > remove these lead phosphate deposits when using Decalin RunUp." > > I have a O2 sensor on my Rotax 914 exhaust. We talked about this, and you > said could use 1/2 recommended dosage compared to Cont. or Lyc. but that > lead phosphate will still build up, but that I could use a combustion > chamber cleaner to clean it out, and that you would most like add this > cleaner in the future. > > So have you added a lead phosphate cleaner? If not do you plan to? If not > can you recommend one? If it is added do you still recommend cleaning O2 > sensor every 20 hours? > > My O2 sensor only drives a Split Second Monitor, no fuel control, thus as > long as i have range but slow response, thats OK. > > Thx. > Sincerely > Ron Parigoris > > Plumbing fuel and oil at the moment. > > > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2007, Decalin Chemicals said: > >> Hi Ron, >> Yes I do remember the conversation and I wondered if you had >> resolved the problem. >> >> You are perhaps confusing my conversation with others, because I'm sure >> you >> will have sought advice from where ever you could. I did not recommend >> Seafoam. >> >> The Seafoam formulation is chemically very similar to Marvel Mystery oil >> (MMO), except that it does not have the red dye or the nice smell of oil >> of >> wintergreen that the Marvel people put in it. Oil of wintergreen is >> there >> at a very low concentration just to make it smell nice, it doesn't do >> anything. >> I know quite a few people use MMO as an additive to fuel. >> >> Our Tri-Cresyl Phosphate (TCP) containing treatment is called Decalin >> RunUp. >> It contains TCP and it also contains polyetheramine (PEA). PEA is a very >> well known additive for cleaning combustion chambers, preventing deposits >> on >> valves, cleaning fuel injectors and intake manifolds. It is the >> principle >> ingredient of Techron in auto fuels. These active ingredients are >> dispersed >> in a low volatility solvent. This makes the product safe to carry in the >> cockpit. Similar competing products use toluene, which is extremely >> volatile, flammable and very poisonous. >> The TCP reacts with the lead in the fuel to form lead phosphate in the >> combustion chamber. The lead phosphate then goes out with the exhaust. >> The >> PEA prevents deposition of the lead phosphate inside the combustion >> chamber >> and on the exhaust valve; but you can see it occasionally at the exhaust >> pipe tip as a yellowish deposit. >> I have heard that lead from 100LL in Rotax engines can accumulate in the >> oil >> as a gray sludge if nothing is done to prevent it. This causes rapid >> engine >> wear. >> I have a distributor who sells only to the Rotax community in Kitfox >> aircraft and the users seem happy with it. >> >> You can see and buy the product from our website, >> www.decalinchemicals.com >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Chris Lowery >> Pres Decalin Chemicals LLC >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:55 AM >> Subject: TCP Alternative >> >> >>> Hello Decalin >>> >>> I spoke to you a while back, and you said that using something like >>> Seafoam would be useful to rid my Rotax 914 of lead phosphate when using >>> your product. >>> >>> You also mentioned you would probably be adding something in the future >>> to >>> do this. >>> >>> Question: >>> Are you adding any lead phosphate ridding compound? If not are you >>> planning on doing so and in bout how long? >>> >>> Thx. >>> Sincerely >>> Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:15 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic CHT reading on Rotax 912 The forward left CHT value jumps all over the map on my Dynon 180 EMS and generally reads lower than the right sensor. I replaced the CHT thermocouple sensor on my Rotax 912S engine (80-hours TT) , and checked the wire connections but the problem persists. Has anyone resolved a similar problem on their Rotax 912? Les (PS: the CHT sensor is really pricy and I was not happy that the problem did not go away after buying it.) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:36 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic CHT reading on Rotax 912 If you swap the wires between the left and right sensors does the problem follow the sensor or the wires? Did you install them "dry" (no Teflon tape or thread sealer). Since they ground through the threads you shouldn't use anything on the threads. Same with the oil temperature and pressure senders. BTW: they are not thermocouples. They are resistors whose value varies inversely with temperature. As far as I know they are just off-the-shelf automotive oil temperature senders (possibly from VDO). According to a chart in the Rotax installation manual (page 128, section 21.1 of Edition 1, rev 0, May 2007) the resistance at 20 C is 1000 ohms and 15 ohms at 160 C -- Craig From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Goldner Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 7:56 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic CHT reading on Rotax 912 The forward left CHT value jumps all over the map on my Dynon 180 EMS and generally reads lower than the right sensor. I replaced the CHT thermocouple sensor on my Rotax 912S engine (80-hours TT) , and checked the wire connections but the problem persists. Has anyone resolved a similar problem on their Rotax 912? Les (PS: the CHT sensor is really pricy and I was not happy that the problem did not go away after buying it.) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:23 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic CHT reading on Rotax 912 Correction: the "heavy maintenance" manual says for the cylinder head temperature sensors "On assembly, tighten the temperature sensor to 10 Nm (90 in. lb). Secure screws with LOCTITE 221." Presumably the Loctite doesn't interfere with the ground. The manual says to use Loctite 243 for the oil temperature and pressure sensors (section 79, 3.1.4). -- Craig From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Goldner Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 7:56 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic CHT reading on Rotax 912 The forward left CHT value jumps all over the map on my Dynon 180 EMS and generally reads lower than the right sensor. I replaced the CHT thermocouple sensor on my Rotax 912S engine (80-hours TT) , and checked the wire connections but the problem persists. Has anyone resolved a similar problem on their Rotax 912? Les (PS: the CHT sensor is really pricy and I was not happy that the problem did not go away after buying it.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.