---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/26/08: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:42 AM - Re: Changing Crush Gasket (paul wilson) 2. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: Changing Crush Gasket (paul wilson) 3. 08:33 AM - Re: Changing Crush Gasket (Roger Lee) 4. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Changing Crush Gasket (Peter Rees) 5. 02:21 PM - Re: Changing Crush Gasket (Pete Christensen) 6. 03:26 PM - Re: Changing Crush Gasket (Thilo Kind) 7. 04:17 PM - Re: Changing Crush Gasket (Roger Lee) 8. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 Ivo In Flight Adjustable Combo. (Hugh) 9. 07:15 PM - Wastegate Adjust (h&jeuropa) 10. 07:24 PM - Re: Changing Crush Gasket (paul wilson) 11. 11:54 PM - Re: Changing Crush Gasket (Thilo Kind) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:16 AM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket Boy what a gross exaggeration. O\If the bolt is torqued it just wont come out - period. Every car manufacturer says the same thing as Rotax. We have been ignoring that forever. What happens is one gets some weeping. No big deal. Don't worry about it. Paul ================ At 08:51 PM 7/25/2008, you wrote: > >Pete: > >Not to my knowledge. The copper crush washers recommended by Rotax should >always be used. Your life is at stake. The Rotax Engines DO NOT LIKE LOSS OF >OIL. Use the recommended crush gasket!! You can get them from Lockwood >Aviation. > >Hugh ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:16 AM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Changing Crush Gasket Now this item is a concern. Add a mechanical gadget that has failure modes out of your control does present life threatening issues. Not very likely, for sure, however I would take a torqued bolt as the safest way to go even with out the crush washer. Paul ============== At 09:10 PM 7/25/2008, you wrote: > > >You could install one of the quick-drain valves from Saf-air or Curtis and >be done with it. Aircraft Spruce and California Power Systems both carry >them: > >http://www.rotaxparts.net/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1306 > >http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/safairsump.php > >http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/curtisquickdv.php (scroll to >bottom) > >-- Craig ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:17 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Changing Crush Gasket From: "Roger Lee" Hi Jack, Just a note. If you are flying an ELSA then the quick drain valve is certainly not a bad way to go. If you are SLSA you need an approval from the MFG. I don't believe Rotax sanctions the quick drain valve. We have tried to get them in use for the Flight Design CT, but the FD won't sign off on it because Rotax wouldn't. If you are registered ELSA you can do anything you want. That being said Rotax has it's own warranty items they like or dislike. This is one of those discussions that you have to personally decide. The book says new crush washer. The experience in the field says it is ok to reuse it a few times. The majority don't change out the crush washer and don't have any problems. Up to you now to decide. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195054#195054 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:56:39 AM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Changing Crush Gasket Why not just buy a new one? At UK fuel prices, if you fun on Mogas, you're going to burn about 900GBP of fuel per oil change (based on 15l/h, 50hr service and 1.20GBP per litre (ocuh!)) - I think that the washers are about 1GBP or less. Same goes with the oil filter - why try and find an alternative to the Rotax part - its only about 5GBP or so - is your engine / life really worth risking to save 6GBP??? Peter ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:15 PM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket Jack, That's exactly what I did. I just removed the whole can and I found out that there is NO drain plug on my Kitfox III. So that's what I had to do. Next time I think I'll just suck out all of the oil from the reservoir through the pickup line and call it good. I'll probably shorten the oil change time to make up for not getting all the oil. Thanks to all who responded! Pete Hell Paso, TX Kitfox III SN 1000, 912ul ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Kuehn To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:10 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket I don't even remove the plug any more. I just remove the whole can from the airplane and take the top off, dump out the old oil and clean everything up as clean as new. Depends on your installation though. It's actually easier for me to remove the entire sump than to stand on my head and remove the darn plug. The can needs a good cleaning anyway. Jack On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 5:19 PM, peteohms wrote: I'm about to do my first oil change on my 912ul. Instructions call for changing the crush gasket. Is there a generic gasket available at local auto parts stores? Pete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194969#194969 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:53 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket Hi Paul, that statement is not entirely correct. A bolt will come out, even, when properly torqued - especially at airplanes due to the vibrations. Torquing only makes sure, that the bolt is loaded with the proper tension required for the connection. To avoid loosening of a bolt, several methods are available such as safety wiring, stop nuts, Locktite, etc. The oil release bolt should be safety wired - otherwise the bolt will come loose eventually. Not a good in-flight experience. The function of the crush washer is to seal the opening. Threats / bolts provide no seals, so liquids - in this case oil - will leak. The crush washer is made from copper. The soft copper metal is pressed by the bolt to the engine house. Due to the pressure the surface of the copper washer deforms to comply with the surface of the bolt and the engine housing, respectively, and hence acts as a seal. Since the surface is deformed after one use, a new washer should be used whenever the bolt was removed. Best regards Thilo Kind Zodiac CH 601 HDS with Rotax 912 flying RV 8A under construction _____ From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson Sent: Samstag, 26. Juli 2008 14:32 Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket Boy what a gross exaggeration. O\If the bolt is torqued it just wont come out - period. Every car manufacturer says the same thing as Rotax. We have been ignoring that forever. What happens is one gets some weeping. No big deal. Don't worry about it. Paul ================ At 08:51 PM 7/25/2008, you wrote: Pete: Not to my knowledge. The copper crush washers recommended by Rotax should always be used. Your life is at stake. The Rotax Engines DO NOT LIKE LOSS OF OIL. Use the recommended crush gasket!! You can get them from Lockwood Aviation. Hugh ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:44 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Changing Crush Gasket From: "Roger Lee" I knew this was going to be a hot topic. The drain screw gets 18.5 ft/lbs or 222in/lbs of torque. Whether you use the old one or a new one it needs to be safety wired. We could discuss topics like these for days and it will eventually come down to just you to determine "Do I like Ford's or do I like Chevy's. You can't go wrong if you follow the book. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195097#195097 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:55 PM PST US From: "Hugh" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 912 Ivo In Flight Adjustable Combo. Rocky: What do you mean by "you have to shape it yourself"? Hugh McKay Allegro 2000 Rotax 912 UL -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RockyRim Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 10:57 AM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 912 Ivo In Flight Adjustable Combo. Craig, I found my receipt for the 3M Scotch film. I got it from SRI Racing and it's really quite a cheap way to buy it. But you have to shape it yourself. This is 8 mil instead of 6 mil. which I'm excited about trying. If you want to wait, I'm finishing up my annual condition inspection and will be the test dummy for this 8mil tape before you buy. I don't expect any surprises, I believe it will protect a little better. Rocky Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194707#194707 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:43 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Wastegate Adjust From: "h&jeuropa" I have recently reinstalled my 914 on my Europa. It is also equipped with an Airmaster prop. I flew this setup for about 60 hours with no problems. Took it all apart to repair ground loop damage. I carefully measured the position of the Bowden cable on the wastegate prior to disassembly and reset it the same. However, I can not get full power from the engine. When I go to 115% throttle, I get about 5600 rpm and 32 inHg man press. I can adjust the rpm with the prop pitch stops, but the man press is still low. I have run the tlr46 monitor program and the throttle percentages are correct. So is the tach. I think I noticed that the servo position started at 100% (I think that means full closed), then varied down around 40% or 50% and then went to 100% at full throttle. This seems reasonable. I'm thinking the wastegate is not completely closed when the servo thinks it is and that should be an adjustment of the Bowden cable. The MM isn't too clear. Looking at section 78-00-00/19, 20 & 21. I think I should power up the TCU, let it go thru it's start cycle and then shut off the power to it. Then disconnect the spring (1) and the Bowden cable and see if the wastegate can be closed more (closed is clockwise direction when looking from the bottom of the engine at the turbo, correct?). If so, adjust the cable to close it completely. Does this make sense? Anyone got other ideas? Better way to properly adjust the wastegate? Thank you. Jim Butcher Europa N241BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195122#195122 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:51 PM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket You are repeating what all manufacturers say. In the real world its no big deal. Our race trucks seldom get a new washer and when we do its never copper its dead soft aluminum. Never had a leak an never heard of the bolt falling out. Been doing this to many years and so we know its no sweat. Bolts fall out at the quick lube place because they are installed finger tight. If you think the vibration is bad in an airplane check out the vibration on an off road race truck. We lockwire on a lot of fasteners but the drain bolt is just torqued. Paul =============== At 04:24 PM 7/26/2008, you wrote: >Hi Paul, > >that statement is not entirely correct. A bolt >will come out, even, when properly torqued ' >especially at airplanes due to the vibrations. >Torquing only makes sure, that the bolt is >loaded with the proper tension required for the >connection. To avoid loosening of a bolt, >several methods are available such as safety >wiring, stop nuts, Locktite, etc. The oil >release bolt should be safety wired ' otherwise >the bolt will come loose eventually. Not a good in-flight experience. > >The function of the crush washer is to seal the >opening. Threats / bolts provide no seals, so >liquids ' in this case oil ' will leak. The >crush washer is made from copper. The soft >copper metal is pressed by the bolt to the >engine house. Due to the pressure the surface of >the copper washer deforms to comply with the >surface of the bolt and the engine housing, >respectively, and hence acts as a seal. Since >the surface is deformed after one use, a new >washer should be used whenever the bolt was removed. > >Best regards > >Thilo Kind >Zodiac CH 601 HDS with Rotax 912 flying >RV 8A under construction > > >---------- >From: >owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson >Sent: Samstag, 26. Juli 2008 14:32 >To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket > >Boy what a gross exaggeration. O\If the bolt is >torqued it just wont come out - period. Every >car manufacturer says the same thing as Rotax. >We have been ignoring that forever. What happens >is one gets some weeping. No big deal. Don't worry about it. >Paul >================ >At 08:51 PM 7/25/2008, you wrote: > > >Pete: > >Not to my knowledge. The copper crush washers recommended by Rotax should >always be used. Your life is at stake. The Rotax Engines DO NOT LIKE LOSS OF >OIL. Use the recommended crush gasket!! You can get them from Lockwood >Aviation. > >Hugh > > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:14 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket Hi Paul, on a car it's not a big deal, because the vibrations are different (not uniform) due to always changing RPM setting and induced non-uniform vibrations from the un-even road. This reduces the tendency for bolts to loosen. Airplanes run at almost constant RPM settings, which results in a very uniform vibration. Fasteners will definitely come loose and therefore should be properly secured. There are two reasons for the replacement of the crush washer: the deformation of the surface after first use and work hardening of the copper as well as many aluminium alloys after exposure to vibrations. This can result is breaking of the crush washer. That's why good practice dictates to replace the crush washer every time. I admit, that in a car both the safety-wiring of the bolt and the replacement of the crush washer could be overkill - worst that can happen to you is that the car stops at the shoulder of the raod. In an airplane, this is an entirely different story. That's why all the manufacturers as well as the FAA recommend / insist on those measures. It is definetly not a money making deal of manufacturers - they are not make a lot of money on a piece of safety wire and a copper washer.. Thilo Kind _____ From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson Sent: Sonntag, 27. Juli 2008 03:31 Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket You are repeating what all manufacturers say. In the real world its no big deal. Our race trucks seldom get a new washer and when we do its never copper its dead soft aluminum. Never had a leak an never heard of the bolt falling out. Been doing this to many years and so we know its no sweat. Bolts fall out at the quick lube place because they are installed finger tight. If you think the vibration is bad in an airplane check out the vibration on an off road race truck. We lockwire on a lot of fasteners but the drain bolt is just torqued. Paul =============== At 04:24 PM 7/26/2008, you wrote: Hi Paul, that statement is not entirely correct. A bolt will come out, even, when properly torqued - especially at airplanes due to the vibrations. Torquing only makes sure, that the bolt is loaded with the proper tension required for the connection. To avoid loosening of a bolt, several methods are available such as safety wiring, stop nuts, Locktite, etc. The oil release bolt should be safety wired - otherwise the bolt will come loose eventually. Not a good in-flight experience. The function of the crush washer is to seal the opening. Threats / bolts provide no seals, so liquids - in this case oil - will leak. The crush washer is made from copper. The soft copper metal is pressed by the bolt to the engine house. Due to the pressure the surface of the copper washer deforms to comply with the surface of the bolt and the engine housing, respectively, and hence acts as a seal. Since the surface is deformed after one use, a new washer should be used whenever the bolt was removed. Best regards Thilo Kind Zodiac CH 601 HDS with Rotax 912 flying RV 8A under construction _____ From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson Sent: Samstag, 26. Juli 2008 14:32 Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Changing Crush Gasket Boy what a gross exaggeration. O\If the bolt is torqued it just wont come out - period. Every car manufacturer says the same thing as Rotax. We have been ignoring that forever. What happens is one gets some weeping. No big deal. Don't worry about it. Paul ================ At 08:51 PM 7/25/2008, you wrote: Pete: Not to my knowledge. The copper crush washers recommended by Rotax should always be used. Your life is at stake. The Rotax Engines DO NOT LIKE LOSS OF OIL. Use the recommended crush gasket!! You can get them from Lockwood Aviation. Hugh http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.