---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/18/08: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:39 AM - Replacement Oil... (knowvne@aol.com) 2. 04:17 AM - Re: Replacement Oil... (Tony Oldman) 3. 10:12 AM - Re: carb ice revisited (Pete Christensen) 4. 01:51 PM - Re: carb ice revisited (Ivan) 5. 03:11 PM - Re: carb ice revisited (Pete Christensen) 6. 05:03 PM - Re: carb ice revisited (Ivan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:08 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Replacement Oil... From: knowvne@aol.com Hi All Well Im finally a 503 supporter.... I was wondering if their has been found a good replacement Oil for the Penzoil Air Cool stuff... I read it was coming off the shelf soon.. I have about 6 pints that the previous 503 owner handed down to me... Has a good alternative been found and Will it blend well with what's already in the Oil tank??? Thanks Mark -----Original Message----- From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server Sent: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 2:57 am Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 08/17/08 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-08-17&Archive=RotaxEngines Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-08-17&Archive=RotaxEngines =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/17/08: 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:33 AM - Re: carb ice revisited (Thom Riddle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:20 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: carb ice revisited From: "Thom Riddle" Roger, In the nearly three years we've operated our Allegro 2000 w/ 912UL, I've had carb ice develop twice in flight. Both times it was at normal cruise power around 5,000 rpm on warm humid days. Noticing it quickly, it is easy enough to clear by cycling the throttle open/close a couple of times. If you don't notice it quickly and don't clear it out, it can build up pretty fast and lead to serious loss of power. It is not a bad idea to install carb heat but we chose not to do so... yet. -------- Thom Riddle CFI-SP Power Plant Mechanic N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist. George Carlin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199048#199048 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:49 AM PST US From: "Tony Oldman" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Replacement Oil... Well now you have opened a can of worms. Oil , I too am a fan of the 503. I have only ever used Castrol super TT. That's a mineral oil.On engine pull downs I have only ever found some gumming up of the top ring after 100+ hours.I have been told of the same on just about any oil you care to mention. Fly behind what ever oil you sleep easy with. I will stay with the mineral stuff that has not given me any trouble. I am told the simple thing is that synthetics have good lubrication properties' and minerals have good adhesion properties .So if you are using the engine a lot then go synthetic if not then go mineral .The simple rule that I use is the price . The engine will need overhauled before 1000 hours ,you can use a really expensive oil or cheaper mineral one . If you use a really expensive synthetic you may find over the life of the engine you have spent more that a new engine or what an earlier overhaul would have cost on a cheaper oil. From my point of view if the oil meets the manufacturers specifications then I will happily fly with it . Blending oils . Now if you pre mix your fuel then I have no problem with blending, if you have a self lube system then I would defiantly not blend. Now I cant supply any facts for my thinking here except that I have being playing around with outboard motors for many years and that's the rules that apply to them. There has been the odd time that trying to blend different oils in a self oiler has resulted in the oil congealing and not passing through the oil pump correctly resulting in damage to the engine.Pennzoil is not a biggy in this part of the world . There are those that sing its virtues ,but I personally have seen no great advantages of using it over other brands.It may well be a good product but it is also very expensive , in my opinion not value for money.It may be more reasonably priced in your part of the world so worth considering. Regards Tony 503 MK111 Kolb Down Under Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Replacement Oil... Hi All Well Im finally a 503 supporter.... I was wondering if their has been found a good replacement Oil for the Penzoil Air Cool stuff... I read it was coming off the shelf soon.. I have about 6 pints that the previous 503 owner handed down to me... Has a good alternative been found and Will it blend well with what's already in the Oil tank??? Thanks Mark -----Original Message----- From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List Sent: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 2:57 am Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 08/17/08 * Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html& Chapter 08-08-17&Archive=RotaxEngines Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C hapter 08-08-17&Archive=RotaxEngines ====================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ====================== ---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/17/08: 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:33 AM - Re: carb ice revisited (Thom Riddle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:20 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: carb ice revisited From: "Thom Riddle" Roger, In the nearly three years we've operated our Allegro 2000 w/ 912UL, I've had carb ice develop twice in flight. Both times it was at normal cruise power around 5,000 rpm on warm humid days. Noticing it quickly, it is easy enough to clear by cycling the throttle open/close a couple of times. If you don't notice it quickly and don't clear it out, it can build up pretty fast and lead to serious loss of power. It is not a bad idea to install carb heat but we chose not to do so... yet. -------- Thom Riddle CFI-SP Power Plant Mechanic N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL N197BG FS1/447 -------------------- Scratch any cynic, he said, and youll find a disappointed idealist. George Carlin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199048#199048 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- It's time to go back to school! Get the latest trends and gadgets that make the grade on AOL Shopping. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:44 AM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited Roger, My 912 does the same thing every time I do my run-up on the first flight of the day. I really don't think it is ice. I think because the carb heat bypasses the air filter that the carbs are getting more air. If I run the engine at 3500 rpm for a half minute the problem clears up. Pete Hell Paso, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan" Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:28 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited > > Roger > One day when I did my run up on the ground, I got a progressive drop of > over 150 in RPM at idle. I repeated this twice. I figured that after a > long taxi at low throttle set me up for carb ice. I turned on the carb > heat and the rpm soon went back to normal. Waited about 10 seconds or so > and turned off the carb heat again and again the idle dropped. I turned > on the carb heat again for about 20 sec or so and then turned off the > heat. The idle then remained steady at the proper idle rpm. Had no > further occurrances that day. > > I also had the above scenario occur one other day and the heat worked like > a charm. > > Ivan > Phoenix, AZ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Lee" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:51 AM > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited > > >> >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> FYI >> >> I know I had a hard time convincing some that the Rotax 912's with the >> altitude compensating variable-venturi carbs are not susceptible to carb >> ice. >> >> Here is a quote from "Aircraft Powerplants" by Bent/McKinley a recognized >> text approved by the FAA. (Light reading when I have nothing better to >> . ) >> >> Quote: >> " The variable-venturi and pressure injection carburetors are relatively >> free from carburetor carb icing troubles." >> >> This is the big difference that pilots have to come to understand when >> they come from GA aviation that have a standard carb verses a >> variable-venturi carb. A few authors I have read recently would like to >> hear from anyone that has had a documented carb icing with these carbs. >> Fixed venturi carbs are far more susceptible to icing. >> >> >> That said a doctor teaching me a class once said, "Never say Never". >> So, if you want to spend the money for a fix for the the improbable carb >> ice issue you can buy one of two types. These are heated rings that go >> between the carb and the intake mount. One is an electrically heated >> ring. The other is hooked into your hot water/coolant and circulates >> through the ring. The water one is better as it does not put a hit on >> your electrical system. >> >> -------- >> Roger Lee >> Tucson, Az. >> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated >> Rotax Service Center >> 520-574-1080 >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198954#198954 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:18 PM PST US From: "Ivan" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited Roger, Pete Also to consider is the fact that my carb is an altitude compensating carb. Because of that there is normally no drop in RPM when turning on carb heat in the absence of ice. The two times presumable ice occurred was on a medium temp day, humid, at low throttle setting. If that is not a set up for carb icing I dont know what is. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Christensen" Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:12 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited > > > Roger, > > My 912 does the same thing every time I do my run-up on the first flight > of the day. I really don't think it is ice. I think because the carb heat > bypasses the air filter that the carbs are getting more air. If I run the > engine at 3500 rpm for a half minute the problem clears up. > > Pete > Hell Paso, TX > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ivan" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:28 AM > Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited > > >> >> Roger >> One day when I did my run up on the ground, I got a progressive drop of >> over 150 in RPM at idle. I repeated this twice. I figured that after a >> long taxi at low throttle set me up for carb ice. I turned on the carb >> heat and the rpm soon went back to normal. Waited about 10 seconds or so >> and turned off the carb heat again and again the idle dropped. I turned >> on the carb heat again for about 20 sec or so and then turned off the >> heat. The idle then remained steady at the proper idle rpm. Had no >> further occurrances that day. >> >> I also had the above scenario occur one other day and the heat worked >> like a charm. >> >> Ivan >> Phoenix, AZ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Roger Lee" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:51 AM >> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited >> >> >>> >>> >>> Hi Guys, >>> >>> FYI >>> >>> I know I had a hard time convincing some that the Rotax 912's with the >>> altitude compensating variable-venturi carbs are not susceptible to carb >>> ice. >>> >>> Here is a quote from "Aircraft Powerplants" by Bent/McKinley a >>> recognized text approved by the FAA. (Light reading when I have nothing >>> better to . ) >>> >>> Quote: >>> " The variable-venturi and pressure injection carburetors are relatively >>> free from carburetor carb icing troubles." >>> >>> This is the big difference that pilots have to come to understand when >>> they come from GA aviation that have a standard carb verses a >>> variable-venturi carb. A few authors I have read recently would like to >>> hear from anyone that has had a documented carb icing with these carbs. >>> Fixed venturi carbs are far more susceptible to icing. >>> >>> >>> That said a doctor teaching me a class once said, "Never say Never". >>> So, if you want to spend the money for a fix for the the improbable carb >>> ice issue you can buy one of two types. These are heated rings that go >>> between the carb and the intake mount. One is an electrically heated >>> ring. The other is hooked into your hot water/coolant and circulates >>> through the ring. The water one is better as it does not put a hit on >>> your electrical system. >>> >>> -------- >>> Roger Lee >>> Tucson, Az. >>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated >>> Rotax Service Center >>> 520-574-1080 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198954#198954 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:11:41 PM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited Ivan , Well, every day is humid here lately. Guess you could be right. It never happens after the engine gets good and warm. Pete Hell Paso, TX Kitfox III, sn 1000, 912, Grove ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan" Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited > > Roger, Pete > Also to consider is the fact that my carb is an altitude compensating > carb. Because of that there is normally no drop in RPM when turning on > carb heat in the absence of ice. The two times presumable ice occurred was > on a medium temp day, humid, at low throttle setting. If that is not a > set up for carb icing I dont know what is. > > Ivan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Christensen" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:12 AM > Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited > > >> >> >> Roger, >> >> My 912 does the same thing every time I do my run-up on the first flight >> of the day. I really don't think it is ice. I think because the carb >> heat bypasses the air filter that the carbs are getting more air. If I >> run the engine at 3500 rpm for a half minute the problem clears up. >> >> Pete >> Hell Paso, TX >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ivan" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:28 AM >> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited >> >> >>> >>> Roger >>> One day when I did my run up on the ground, I got a progressive drop of >>> over 150 in RPM at idle. I repeated this twice. I figured that after a >>> long taxi at low throttle set me up for carb ice. I turned on the carb >>> heat and the rpm soon went back to normal. Waited about 10 seconds or >>> so and turned off the carb heat again and again the idle dropped. I >>> turned on the carb heat again for about 20 sec or so and then turned off >>> the heat. The idle then remained steady at the proper idle rpm. Had no >>> further occurrances that day. >>> >>> I also had the above scenario occur one other day and the heat worked >>> like a charm. >>> >>> Ivan >>> Phoenix, AZ >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Roger Lee" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:51 AM >>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, >>>> >>>> FYI >>>> >>>> I know I had a hard time convincing some that the Rotax 912's with the >>>> altitude compensating variable-venturi carbs are not susceptible to >>>> carb ice. >>>> >>>> Here is a quote from "Aircraft Powerplants" by Bent/McKinley a >>>> recognized text approved by the FAA. (Light reading when I have nothing >>>> better to . ) >>>> >>>> Quote: >>>> " The variable-venturi and pressure injection carburetors are >>>> relatively free from carburetor carb icing troubles." >>>> >>>> This is the big difference that pilots have to come to understand when >>>> they come from GA aviation that have a standard carb verses a >>>> variable-venturi carb. A few authors I have read recently would like to >>>> hear from anyone that has had a documented carb icing with these carbs. >>>> Fixed venturi carbs are far more susceptible to icing. >>>> >>>> >>>> That said a doctor teaching me a class once said, "Never say Never". >>>> So, if you want to spend the money for a fix for the the improbable >>>> carb ice issue you can buy one of two types. These are heated rings >>>> that go between the carb and the intake mount. One is an electrically >>>> heated ring. The other is hooked into your hot water/coolant and >>>> circulates through the ring. The water one is better as it does not put >>>> a hit on your electrical system. >>>> >>>> -------- >>>> Roger Lee >>>> Tucson, Az. >>>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated >>>> Rotax Service Center >>>> 520-574-1080 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198954#198954 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:30 PM PST US From: "Ivan" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited That venturi in the carb can get pretty cool with evaporation of the fuel inlet and it would not take that much to close off the opening. I would not think that Rotax would have carb heat if it was not necessary or useful. In my flying if I suffer a power loss I would definitely try carb heat. I never had the problem during the warm weather in AZ. I can remember that the day it happened it had been foggy, 100% humidity and expected the carb ice. When I did my run up and the RPM dropped for the first time ever, I just said OH there it is. I did recheck doing the run up twice to make sure it did not ice up again and all was ok. I was especially vigillant on my final. Just to make sure I have the Bing Altitude compensating carburetor. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Christensen" Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:11 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited > > > Ivan , > > Well, every day is humid here lately. Guess you could be right. It never > happens after the engine gets good and warm. > > Pete > Hell Paso, TX > Kitfox III, sn 1000, 912, Grove > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ivan" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited > > >> >> Roger, Pete >> Also to consider is the fact that my carb is an altitude compensating >> carb. Because of that there is normally no drop in RPM when turning on >> carb heat in the absence of ice. The two times presumable ice occurred >> was on a medium temp day, humid, at low throttle setting. If that is >> not a set up for carb icing I dont know what is. >> >> Ivan >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pete Christensen" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:12 AM >> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited >> >> >>> >>> >>> Roger, >>> >>> My 912 does the same thing every time I do my run-up on the first flight >>> of the day. I really don't think it is ice. I think because the carb >>> heat bypasses the air filter that the carbs are getting more air. If I >>> run the engine at 3500 rpm for a half minute the problem clears up. >>> >>> Pete >>> Hell Paso, TX >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ivan" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:28 AM >>> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Roger >>>> One day when I did my run up on the ground, I got a progressive drop >>>> of over 150 in RPM at idle. I repeated this twice. I figured that >>>> after a long taxi at low throttle set me up for carb ice. I turned on >>>> the carb heat and the rpm soon went back to normal. Waited about 10 >>>> seconds or so and turned off the carb heat again and again the idle >>>> dropped. I turned on the carb heat again for about 20 sec or so and >>>> then turned off the heat. The idle then remained steady at the proper >>>> idle rpm. Had no further occurrances that day. >>>> >>>> I also had the above scenario occur one other day and the heat worked >>>> like a charm. >>>> >>>> Ivan >>>> Phoenix, AZ >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Roger Lee" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:51 AM >>>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: carb ice revisited >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Guys, >>>>> >>>>> FYI >>>>> >>>>> I know I had a hard time convincing some that the Rotax 912's with the >>>>> altitude compensating variable-venturi carbs are not susceptible to >>>>> carb ice. >>>>> >>>>> Here is a quote from "Aircraft Powerplants" by Bent/McKinley a >>>>> recognized text approved by the FAA. (Light reading when I have >>>>> nothing better to . ) >>>>> >>>>> Quote: >>>>> " The variable-venturi and pressure injection carburetors are >>>>> relatively free from carburetor carb icing troubles." >>>>> >>>>> This is the big difference that pilots have to come to understand when >>>>> they come from GA aviation that have a standard carb verses a >>>>> variable-venturi carb. A few authors I have read recently would like >>>>> to hear from anyone that has had a documented carb icing with these >>>>> carbs. Fixed venturi carbs are far more susceptible to icing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That said a doctor teaching me a class once said, "Never say Never". >>>>> So, if you want to spend the money for a fix for the the improbable >>>>> carb ice issue you can buy one of two types. These are heated rings >>>>> that go between the carb and the intake mount. One is an electrically >>>>> heated ring. The other is hooked into your hot water/coolant and >>>>> circulates through the ring. The water one is better as it does not >>>>> put a hit on your electrical system. >>>>> >>>>> -------- >>>>> Roger Lee >>>>> Tucson, Az. >>>>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated >>>>> Rotax Service Center >>>>> 520-574-1080 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Read this topic online here: >>>>> >>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198954#198954 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.