Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:19 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Craig Payne)
2. 01:07 AM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Robert C Harrison)
3. 04:46 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Graham Singleton)
4. 05:02 AM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Thom Riddle)
5. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Graham Singleton)
6. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Noel Loveys)
7. 07:04 AM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Noel Loveys)
8. 07:50 AM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (rampil)
9. 08:00 AM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Roger Lee)
10. 08:30 AM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Thom Riddle)
11. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Gilles Thesee)
12. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Peter Jeffers)
13. 10:14 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Craig Payne)
14. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Graham Singleton)
15. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Gilles Thesee)
16. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Craig Payne)
17. 12:03 PM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Noel Loveys)
18. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Robert C Harrison)
19. 01:39 PM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (rampil)
20. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Dave G)
21. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Robert C Harrison)
22. 06:09 PM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Roger Lee)
23. 06:42 PM - Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Roger Lee)
24. 07:31 PM - Re: Re: Carb ice on a 912 (Noel Loveys)
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
But feeding cool air from outside the cowl gives you more power than the
usual set-up of a filter on each carb drawing warm air from inside the cowl.
How much I can't say. But I'm glad my Skyshop FWF kit for my Zenith 701 came
with the Rotax air box because with my home field at 6300 feet I can use all
the power I can get.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les
Goldner
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<lgold@quantum-associates.com>
Thanks Roger,
Les
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:33 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
The majority of 912ULS's in the world or USA don't have carb heat. Because
of the variable throat slide the Bing 64's are not prone to carb ice. Some
say they have had it, but there are several well authored articles looking
for anyone to actually prove they really had carb ice. I have posted these
articles from the aviation world and well known authors on other sites
before. There will be people who say they had it and pulled carb heat on and
the roughness went away, but other situations can cause engine roughness.
The aviation people are still looking for someone to prove carb ice in the
912ULS.
Carb heat in in many planes using the 912 is more of a recent development
over the last several years. The 912 has been around since late 1989. They
haven't been falling out of the air from carb ice and they fly in every
environment in the world. There are after market carb heating units for the
carbs. One is electric and another hot coolant.
Is it impossible well:
"Never say Never"
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229658#229658
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| Subject: | Carb ice on a 912 |
Hi! Les.
I can't help with the situation on the 912ULS but you say that you
usually fly high and over mountains presumably you will at some time of
the trips be descending?. If you get a problem it would be descending on
a low power setting into humidity at low altitude. You really need to
seek out a graph which has been circulating which helps identify the
flight envelopes where icing is most likely.
It is humidity which is the ogre in this problem .
Unfortunately I can't point you where to find the graph.
I have a 914 Turbo which heats the intake charge much more than is
healthy for the engine but also have an intercooler which drops the
intake temp by 25 deg in the winter and 20 deg in the summer, however I
have never seen the throat temp less than 6 deg.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les
Goldner
Sent: 11 February 2009 01:48
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Carb ice on a 912
I had to fly the other day in my Zenith 701 when OAT and dew point were
both Zero-degrees. Erring toward caution, I flew high and over landable
places since I don't have carb heat.
This flight got gray matter going. I have heard that the 912ULS isn't
very prone to icing but would like a more definitive answer to the carb
icing prospects in a 912ULS that is inside a cowling. How important is
it to have carb heat if you only fly high mountains in summer months?
Les
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Carb heat in in many planes using the 912 is more of a recent development over
the last several years. The 912 has been around since late 1989. They haven't
been falling out of the air from carb ice and they fly in every environment
in the world. There are after market carb heating units for the carbs. One is
electric and another hot coolant.
>
> Is it impossible well:
> "Never say Never"
> --------
> Roger Lee
Roger
Agree, never say never! The UK Rotax agent has photographs of ice in a
Bing carb on a 912, (Nigel Beale) He developed the hot coolant carb heat
which I think makes the engine run better anyway, helps to evaporate the
fuel drops and give better distribution. Check your EGTs, they swap
around with different throttle settings due to the bends in the inlet
manifold
Graham
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Les,
I'm one who knows without a doubt that I've had carb ice in more than one of my
912UL engines. It can't be proven without equipping the engine with a "carb ice
detector" because once you've landed and removed the air cleaner and disassembled
the carb while the hot engine was melting the ice that was there, it is
gone.
I've been flying since 1966 long before Rotax was making aircraft engines and
have had carb ice on many different aircraft over the years and know how the engine
behaves when it has carb ice. I live in a somewhat humid area and have experienced
definite carb ice on a cowled 912UL without airbox twice. Catching
it early, I've been able to clear the ice by cycling the throttle from full to
idle and back a few times. Apparently raising and lowering the slide while opening
and closing the throttle valve is sufficient to break it up when caught
early enough. The Bing 64 carbs are less likely to encounter carb ice than many
other types of carbs but they are not immune to it. It is infrequent enough
that I do not consider carb heat a requirement for me. Infrequent is not that
same as non-existent.
Following is a link to a probability chart for atmospheric conditions that are
conducive to carb ice.
http://www.ez.org/carb_ice.htm
If you live in Arizona or other part of the SW or other arid desert areas, you
will probably never encounter carb ice because the atmospheric conditions that
are conducive to carb ice are unusual events, compared to other areas. In the
eastern part of the US and other humid areas of the world a 912 engine can have
carb ice.
Notice on the chart that really cold temps are less prone to carb ice than moderate
temps.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229710#229710
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Thom Riddle wrote:
>
> Les,
>
> I'm one who knows without a doubt that I've had carb ice in more than one of
my 912UL engines. I
> If you live in Arizona or other part of the SW or other arid desert areas, you
will probably never encounter carb ice because the atmospheric conditions that
are conducive to carb ice are unusual events, compared to other areas. In the
eastern part of the US and other humid areas of the world a 912 engine can
have carb ice.
>
> Notice on the chart that really cold temps are less prone to carb ice than moderate
temps.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
>
>
Les
Spot on! You won't get ice with dry air. Humidity is the problem.
Nigel's hot water heater works well
Graham
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
>From what I've read about the Bing carbs, the possibility of carb icing
increases with the use of an airbox. Fortunately most of the engines with
the airbox also have carb heat. Past posts have described icing but always
with the airbox... Go figure!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les
Goldner
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:03 AM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<lgold@quantum-associates.com>
Thanks Roger,
Les
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:33 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
The majority of 912ULS's in the world or USA don't have carb heat. Because
of the variable throat slide the Bing 64's are not prone to carb ice. Some
say they have had it, but there are several well authored articles looking
for anyone to actually prove they really had carb ice. I have posted these
articles from the aviation world and well known authors on other sites
before. There will be people who say they had it and pulled carb heat on and
the roughness went away, but other situations can cause engine roughness.
The aviation people are still looking for someone to prove carb ice in the
912ULS.
Carb heat in in many planes using the 912 is more of a recent development
over the last several years. The 912 has been around since late 1989. They
haven't been falling out of the air from carb ice and they fly in every
environment in the world. There are after market carb heating units for the
carbs. One is electric and another hot coolant.
Is it impossible well:
"Never say Never"
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229658#229658
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| Subject: | Carb ice on a 912 |
I think there is one of those graphs in the Cessna 172 POH.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert C
Harrison
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:36 AM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Carb ice on a 912
Hi! Les.
I can't help with the situation on the 912ULS but you say that you usually
fly high and over mountains presumably you will at some time of the trips be
descending?. If you get a problem it would be descending on a low power
setting into humidity at low altitude. You really need to seek out a graph
which has been circulating which helps identify the flight envelopes where
icing is most likely.
It is humidity which is the ogre in this problem .
Unfortunately I can't point you where to find the graph.
I have a 914 Turbo which heats the intake charge much more than is healthy
for the engine but also have an intercooler which drops the intake temp by
25 deg in the winter and 20 deg in the summer, however I have never seen the
throat temp less than 6 deg.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les
Goldner
Sent: 11 February 2009 01:48
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Carb ice on a 912
I had to fly the other day in my Zenith 701 when OAT and dew point were both
Zero-degrees. Erring toward caution, I flew high and over landable places
since I don't have carb heat.
This flight got gray matter going. I have heard that the 912ULS isn't very
prone to icing but would like a more definitive answer to the carb icing
prospects in a 912ULS that is inside a cowling. How important is it to have
carb heat if you only fly high mountains in summer months?
Les
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
I have Nigel's carb heater system instead in my humid area of the
NE USA. Unlike Cessna carb heat, it does not heat the inlet air, only the
metal carb body, so there is little to no performance hit. It also
weighs very little. I would certainly install it again if I were starting
over.
>From my week in Kingman, Az last summer, I can see how it would
be hard to find icing condx in the summer (9) months of the year in Az.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229751#229751
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
You can't apply standard icing issues to a 912ULS with the [b]variable throat[/b]
carb because those studies are done with a fixed throat carb. If any of you
have a picture or any proof please post it. There are several aviation authorities
that would like to see this. I will try to dig back up those articles. I
know what the conditions are that cause the problem, but we still don't see any
912ULS engines quitting because of carb ice. I haven't read any FAA investigations
laying the blame on carb ice. These engines have been flying in all parts
of the humid world (hot and cold) for decades with no carb ice heater.
The variable throat is still the key help.
If you have some proof please post it so I can send it on to the aviation authorities.
I don't believe it is impossible, just so highly unlikely no to ever worry about.
If you are flying I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I have flown all over the
country with a 912 ULS from sea level to 16K, from 0F-115F and
7%-95% humidity, rain and snow and have never had a problem.If you really think
about so do all of you fly in these conditions because you live all over the
world and we fly and don't have any issues. You shouldn't always think because
your engine had a rough moment that it was carb ice.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229756#229756
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Roger,
No one is arguing that carb ice is unlikely with the variable venturi type carbs.
I stated that myself in my posts on this subject both today and in previous
posts. I've also stated that without a carb ice detector installed in the carb
there can be no scientific proof that ice actually formed in the carb. This
statement applies to all carburetors, not just Bing 64. The closest thing to
proof one can get without an ice detector is with a manually controllable carb
heat device, like those on virtually all GA aircraft engines. When the engine
behaves as if the carb is icing, apply this manual carb heat and see the results
which are described in virtually every GA aircraft POH built in the last 40
years or so. To my knowledge, no one has "proven" that carb ice existed in these
GA aircraft engines without a carb ice detector but by the same token nobody
disputes it is happening without said proof.
Absence of proof (carb ice detector) is not absence of evidence, regardless of
whether you are talking about a conventional GA aircraft engine carburetor or
a variable venturi carburetor.
Your travels all over the country including humid conditions without experiencing
carb ice is not proof that sometimes some Bing 64s do ice up. As I've stated
multiple times. I rarely (not the same as never) get carb ice in my Bing 64
carbs but it does happen occasionally; in my case twice in the last eight years
of flying 912 engines. This is based on the distinctive symptoms that accompany
carb ice and the elimination of those symptoms by the method I already described.
BTW, are you aware that the Diamond Katana, type certificated airplane
with Rotax 912 certificated engine is equipped with manual carb heat?
If you insist on proof that a Bing 64 carb has actually iced up, I must ask for
similar proof from you that it CANNOT ice up. Works both ways.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229764#229764
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Thom Riddle a crit :
> BTW, are you aware that the Diamond Katana, type certificated airplane with Rotax
912 certificated engine is equipped with manual carb heat?
Thom and all,
Diamond and some others have chosen the easiest way : implement the carb
heat systems specified in the FAR/JAR 23.
No problem with red tape, no problem with the majority of pilots who
have only heard of Lyco/Conti engines.
Now the question might be, is this carb heat efficient or not, do
others way to prevent carb ice exist ?
To my knowledge, no one has a clear idea as to when, how, under what
conditions the Bing carburetors do ice up and deice.
The only thing I know for sure, is that ice cannot possibly build up in
a warm carb body, and our own carbs do run warm. Are our carb throats,
needles, jets etc. warm enough, I don't know.
Are the off-the-shelf electric or water heating devices efficient, I
don't know either.
Bottom line, if one builds with the inspector's approval on mind, do put
a carb heat devised for a Marvel carb, he'll be happy.
If one builds for maximum safety, the question is still open.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
In the UK we probably fly in more potentially icing conditions than in most
other locations.
I fly my Europa with a 912ul engine with plenum chamber fitted and no carb
heater of any kind. I now have some 1200 hours on the aircraft and can
definitely affirm that we do experience what we take to be carb icing. Yes
probably carb icing because it always and only occurs in high humidity
conditions. I have found it to be fairly predictable, to the extent that I
can warn my passengers in advance when I expect it to occur and it usually
does. The symptoms are not the same as those experienced on
Continentals/Lycomings where a slow almost imperceptible loss of power with
constant throttle is observed.
On the 912 the clue is a short period (1 or 2 seconds) of rough running
which then clears to normal running followed a few moments later by the same
symptoms presumably the other carb.
The whole sequence will then be repeated several minutes later (assuming you
do nothing about it). I find that warming the engine by making it work ie
climbing or accelerating for a few minutes will delay a further event by
some considerable length of time if not the rest of the flight.
The other solution is a carb heater. The best is that which uses engine
coolant to warm the carb body.
Pete Jeffers
--Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thom
Riddle
Sent: 11 February 2009 16:29
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
Roger,
No one is arguing that carb ice is unlikely with the variable venturi type
carbs. I stated that myself in my posts on this subject both today and in
previous posts. I've also stated that without a carb ice detector installed
in the carb there can be no scientific proof that ice actually formed in the
carb. This statement applies to all carburetors, not just Bing 64. The
closest thing to proof one can get without an ice detector is with a
manually controllable carb heat device, like those on virtually all GA
aircraft engines. When the engine behaves as if the carb is icing, apply
this manual carb heat and see the results which are described in virtually
every GA aircraft POH built in the last 40 years or so. To my knowledge, no
one has "proven" that carb ice existed in these GA aircraft engines without
a carb ice detector but by the same token nobody disputes it is happening
without said proof.
Absence of proof (carb ice detector) is not absence of evidence, regardless
of whether you are talking about a conventional GA aircraft engine
carburetor or a variable venturi carburetor.
Your travels all over the country including humid conditions without
experiencing carb ice is not proof that sometimes some Bing 64s do ice up.
As I've stated multiple times. I rarely (not the same as never) get carb ice
in my Bing 64 carbs but it does happen occasionally; in my case twice in the
last eight years of flying 912 engines. This is based on the distinctive
symptoms that accompany carb ice and the elimination of those symptoms by
the method I already described. BTW, are you aware that the Diamond Katana,
type certificated airplane with Rotax 912 certificated engine is equipped
with manual carb heat?
If you insist on proof that a Bing 64 carb has actually iced up, I must ask
for similar proof from you that it CANNOT ice up. Works both ways.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229764#229764
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
17:44:00
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
But the same Bing carb (at least style) is fitted on Jabirus and their FWF
kits routinely include carb heat.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:00 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
You can't apply standard icing issues to a 912ULS with the [b]variable
throat[/b] carb because those studies are done with a fixed throat carb. If
any of you have a picture or any proof please post it. There are several
aviation authorities that would like to see this. I will try to dig back up
those articles. I know what the conditions are that cause the problem, but
we still don't see any 912ULS engines quitting because of carb ice. I
haven't read any FAA investigations laying the blame on carb ice. These
engines have been flying in all parts of the humid world (hot and cold) for
decades with no carb ice heater.
The variable throat is still the key help.
If you have some proof please post it so I can send it on to the aviation
authorities.
I don't believe it is impossible, just so highly unlikely no to ever worry
about.
If you are flying I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I have flown all over
the country with a 912 ULS from sea level to 16K, from 0F-115F and
7%-95% humidity, rain and snow and have never had a problem.If you really
think about so do all of you fly in these conditions because you live all
over the world and we fly and don't have any issues. You shouldn't always
think because your engine had a rough moment that it was carb ice.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229756#229756
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Thom Riddle wrote:
>
> Roger,
> No one is arguing that carb ice is unlikely with the variable venturi type carbs.
This is based on the distinctive symptoms that accompany carb ice and the
elimination of those symptoms by the method I already described. BTW, are you
aware that the Diamond Katana, type certificated airplane with Rotax 912 certificated
engine is equipped with manual carb heat?
>
> If you insist on proof that a Bing 64 carb has actually iced up, I must ask for
similar proof from you that it CANNOT ice up. Works both ways.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
>
Thom
You are right. I have seen photographs showing carb ice, taken by Nigel
Beale, <http://www.skydrive.co.uk> at least ten years ago. It does happen.
He used them to help market his carb heater.
What more proof do you want Roger?
Graham
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Craig Payne a crit :
> But the same Bing carb (at least style) is fitted on Jabirus and their FWF
> kits routinely include carb heat.
>
What is not sure is, did they do their homework and conducted a thorough
icing study, or did they do like others and install a Lyco carb heat ?
Now a Jabiru quitting in flight due to carb ice is something unheard of ;-)
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Doesn't that make sense? Engines with air boxes are drawing cool air from
outside the cowl. Engines without are drawing warm air from under the cowl.
Without an air box carb heat is essentially always on.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:14 AM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
>From what I've read about the Bing carbs, the possibility of carb icing
increases with the use of an airbox. Fortunately most of the engines with
the airbox also have carb heat. Past posts have described icing but always
with the airbox... Go figure!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les
Goldner
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:03 AM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<lgold@quantum-associates.com>
Thanks Roger,
Les
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:33 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
The majority of 912ULS's in the world or USA don't have carb heat. Because
of the variable throat slide the Bing 64's are not prone to carb ice. Some
say they have had it, but there are several well authored articles looking
for anyone to actually prove they really had carb ice. I have posted these
articles from the aviation world and well known authors on other sites
before. There will be people who say they had it and pulled carb heat on and
the roughness went away, but other situations can cause engine roughness.
The aviation people are still looking for someone to prove carb ice in the
912ULS.
Carb heat in in many planes using the 912 is more of a recent development
over the last several years. The 912 has been around since late 1989. They
haven't been falling out of the air from carb ice and they fly in every
environment in the world. There are after market carb heating units for the
carbs. One is electric and another hot coolant.
Is it impossible well:
"Never say Never"
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229658#229658
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
As I have been reading the mail on this thread something came to mind...
As a Kid I owned a 69 Rover SC 2000 car complete with the side draft SU
carb... I eventually swapped out a few parts and turned it into a TC (
Twin carb ) Today I can't remember ever seeing a heat stove hooked up to
that carb. I also don't remember a heat stove on any of the Jags, minis or
even the couple of RR that I had the chance to peek under the bonnet. If
those cars can work for decades without carb heat I guess the 912 will too
with the similar bing carb..
Later I had a Pontiac Safari Station wagon with a 305 (terrible engine) for
some reason the scat tube form the heat stove to the air cleaner had been
removed. Almost every time it rained I would have carb ice but at that time
I didn't know what it was... until the day the throttle froze open. As was
mentioned about taking apart the air cleaner and having a look down the
throat of the carb by that time a lot of the ice had melted. I wasn't long
hooking up the heat stove again.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:30 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
You can't apply standard icing issues to a 912ULS with the [b]variable
throat[/b] carb because those studies are done with a fixed throat carb. If
any of you have a picture or any proof please post it. There are several
aviation authorities that would like to see this. I will try to dig back up
those articles. I know what the conditions are that cause the problem, but
we still don't see any 912ULS engines quitting because of carb ice. I
haven't read any FAA investigations laying the blame on carb ice. These
engines have been flying in all parts of the humid world (hot and cold) for
decades with no carb ice heater.
The variable throat is still the key help.
If you have some proof please post it so I can send it on to the aviation
authorities.
I don't believe it is impossible, just so highly unlikely no to ever worry
about.
If you are flying I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I have flown all over
the country with a 912 ULS from sea level to 16K, from 0F-115F and
7%-95% humidity, rain and snow and have never had a problem.If you really
think about so do all of you fly in these conditions because you live all
over the world and we fly and don't have any issues. You shouldn't always
think because your engine had a rough moment that it was carb ice.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229756#229756
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Hi! Gilles
I can vouch for my ex-jabiru 3300 getting ice three or four times once
in the UK on very hot and humid flight in the midlands, second time
departing from Southend direct to Denmark about 20 miles out about 2,000
ft level, third time crossing Sweden same height (with nothing but rocks
lakes and damn trees as far as one could see!) all in June. Fourth time
going straight out five miles from LeTouque at about 1000ft probably in
August. ALL VIVIDLY MARKED ON MY BRAIN! In all cases engaging carb heat
caused a further little engine cough with no further problem. The carb
heat was a simple flap valve enabling warm air from round the muffler to
be fed to the air box.
I'm convinced that the engine knows when you are in the most critical
part of your journey to give a cough !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG(now with 914 and Bell Intercooler and no carb heat
YET!)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Gilles Thesee
Sent: 11 February 2009 18:21
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Craig Payne a crit :
> But the same Bing carb (at least style) is fitted on Jabirus and their
FWF
> kits routinely include carb heat.
>
What is not sure is, did they do their homework and conducted a thorough
icing study, or did they do like others and install a Lyco carb heat ?
Now a Jabiru quitting in flight due to carb ice is something unheard of
;-)
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Drawing air from the engine compartment may prevent many cases of
carb ice but at a tremendous performance hit of using only heated air,
and with no ram pressure effect. No one flys a cessna with carb heat on,
full time, and carb heating has been cited by the NTSB as responsible for
crashes in attempted go-arounds.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229841#229841
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
I don't know how this carb was iced, but it claims this is an example of
carb icing. It's from an ad for carb body heater. Thery fact that they had a
camera and an icy carb together at the same place makes me think it was
staged, but still; here is an icy Bing
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Hi! Noel
I had an early Austin A 40 my first car it was fitted with a zenith down
draught carb gave me lots of problems and many journeys had to be run at
very low RPM until I got pissed off with it pressed it hard for a few
miles stopped and jumped out to look under the bonnet to find enough ice
to operate a bloody oxygen plant ! Can't remember what I did to it other
than sell it !(happy days)
Regards
Bob Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: 11 February 2009 20:00
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
As I have been reading the mail on this thread something came to mind...
As a Kid I owned a 69 Rover SC 2000 car complete with the side draft SU
carb... I eventually swapped out a few parts and turned it into a TC (
Twin carb ) Today I can't remember ever seeing a heat stove hooked up
to
that carb. I also don't remember a heat stove on any of the Jags, minis
or
even the couple of RR that I had the chance to peek under the bonnet.
If
those cars can work for decades without carb heat I guess the 912 will
too
with the similar bing carb..
Later I had a Pontiac Safari Station wagon with a 305 (terrible engine)
for
some reason the scat tube form the heat stove to the air cleaner had
been
removed. Almost every time it rained I would have carb ice but at that
time
I didn't know what it was... until the day the throttle froze open. As
was
mentioned about taking apart the air cleaner and having a look down the
throat of the carb by that time a lot of the ice had melted. I wasn't
long
hooking up the heat stove again.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Lee
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:30 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
You can't apply standard icing issues to a 912ULS with the [b]variable
throat[/b] carb because those studies are done with a fixed throat carb.
If
any of you have a picture or any proof please post it. There are several
aviation authorities that would like to see this. I will try to dig back
up
those articles. I know what the conditions are that cause the problem,
but
we still don't see any 912ULS engines quitting because of carb ice. I
haven't read any FAA investigations laying the blame on carb ice. These
engines have been flying in all parts of the humid world (hot and cold)
for
decades with no carb ice heater.
The variable throat is still the key help.
If you have some proof please post it so I can send it on to the
aviation
authorities.
I don't believe it is impossible, just so highly unlikely no to ever
worry
about.
If you are flying I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I have flown all
over
the country with a 912 ULS from sea level to 16K, from 0F-115F and
7%-95% humidity, rain and snow and have never had a problem.If you
really
think about so do all of you fly in these conditions because you live
all
over the world and we fly and don't have any issues. You shouldn't
always
think because your engine had a rough moment that it was carb ice.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229756#229756
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
I think I'm with OCCOM on this picture of Bing carb ice. I blew this pic up to
500% and took a good look. I don't think this carb would even work with this much
ice. How did it fly? How did they set up just the right atmospheric and pressure
situations and how did they get it back on the ground pull a cowl in a
hot compartment, pull the air cleaner and have this much ice? What about the other
carb. I will forward this picture to Eric Tucker at Rotax and see what his
take on it is. When I see an Mfg. with a hard to believe pic or claim to fit
their product I tend to take a step back and look again.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229894#229894
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
Ok here is a more official word even if I have to eat my own. I will always seek
out a good answer and I admit I need to adjust my thinking some. Here is an
answer from Eric Tucker from Rotax. I sent the picture to Eric and ask his opinion.
Hello Roger
Do I believe it, yes...in England they have high humidity and the temperatures
that make any engine with a carburetor prone to icing. (Due point and temperature
match) Any venturi that moves air will experience a temperature drop, if
that drop occurs and brings saturated air into the engine venture at the freezing
point of moisture, bingo carb ice. While it may be unlikely that a Rotax
will ice, it can and has happened in my experience. In most cases the engine
bay is so hot, due to the fact that most installations do not have baffles and
very few OEM do any airflow testing, the engines are sucking hot air from inside
the cowlings. Hot air robs a bit of power, but protects against ice. In
the case of exposed engines, as in most UL applications, the operations are normally
not in these conditions, its just too cold to fly in saturated air even
at mild temperatures up to 70 degrees.
I personally like the hot water systems that they have developed, they do not cause
a loss of power because they do not heat the air, they heat the carb body
were the ice forms. In addition it should be noted that the guys in the UK who
developed this are long time aircraft supply people and both of the principals
happen to be engineers. They also developed the soft start module for the
ignition. Rotax liked the idea so much that it will be built into the ignitions
starting mid 2009.
Regards,
Eric
P.S.
I hope this helps all of us.
Roger Lee
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229902#229902
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| Subject: | Re: Carb ice on a 912 |
When I was a little kid my father had an A-40 in Glasgow. His friends used
to joke it was the only "loy" car in the UK. Loy is what they called body
filler. It never ran when it was needed and there was only one window
crank. When he bought it the left indicator was shot. He had that car for
the full four years we lived in Scotland. I never asked what happened to
that car when he finally left Scotland. I expect it may be an anchor at the
bottom of Loc Dhoon.
I remember visiting one of his friends once and going for a drive in his
Rolls Royce. Want to talk about culture shock! Go from the remains of a
well abused A40 hanging on by a roll of cotton thread and a wad of chewing
gum to a brand new Rolls Royce! Being a kid I liked the tables in the back
seat.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert C
Harrison
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Noel
I had an early Austin A 40 my first car it was fitted with a zenith down
draught carb gave me lots of problems and many journeys had to be run at
very low RPM until I got pissed off with it pressed it hard for a few
miles stopped and jumped out to look under the bonnet to find enough ice
to operate a bloody oxygen plant ! Can't remember what I did to it other
than sell it !(happy days)
Regards
Bob Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: 11 February 2009 20:00
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
As I have been reading the mail on this thread something came to mind...
As a Kid I owned a 69 Rover SC 2000 car complete with the side draft SU
carb... I eventually swapped out a few parts and turned it into a TC (
Twin carb ) Today I can't remember ever seeing a heat stove hooked up
to
that carb. I also don't remember a heat stove on any of the Jags, minis
or
even the couple of RR that I had the chance to peek under the bonnet.
If
those cars can work for decades without carb heat I guess the 912 will
too
with the similar bing carb..
Later I had a Pontiac Safari Station wagon with a 305 (terrible engine)
for
some reason the scat tube form the heat stove to the air cleaner had
been
removed. Almost every time it rained I would have carb ice but at that
time
I didn't know what it was... until the day the throttle froze open. As
was
mentioned about taking apart the air cleaner and having a look down the
throat of the carb by that time a lot of the ice had melted. I wasn't
long
hooking up the heat stove again.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Lee
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:30 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb ice on a 912
<ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
You can't apply standard icing issues to a 912ULS with the [b]variable
throat[/b] carb because those studies are done with a fixed throat carb.
If
any of you have a picture or any proof please post it. There are several
aviation authorities that would like to see this. I will try to dig back
up
those articles. I know what the conditions are that cause the problem,
but
we still don't see any 912ULS engines quitting because of carb ice. I
haven't read any FAA investigations laying the blame on carb ice. These
engines have been flying in all parts of the humid world (hot and cold)
for
decades with no carb ice heater.
The variable throat is still the key help.
If you have some proof please post it so I can send it on to the
aviation
authorities.
I don't believe it is impossible, just so highly unlikely no to ever
worry
about.
If you are flying I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I have flown all
over
the country with a 912 ULS from sea level to 16K, from 0F-115F and
7%-95% humidity, rain and snow and have never had a problem.If you
really
think about so do all of you fly in these conditions because you live
all
over the world and we fly and don't have any issues. You shouldn't
always
think because your engine had a rough moment that it was carb ice.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229756#229756
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