---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/22/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:10 AM - Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published in December! (Matt Dralle) 1. 02:03 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 (Robert C Harrison) 2. 02:52 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 (Dave G) 3. 02:58 AM - Re: Rotax 503 service manual (Dave G) 4. 06:22 AM - Re: Rotax 503 (MacDonald Doug) 5. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 (Blumax008@aol.com) 6. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 service manual (Richard Girard) 7. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (Blumax008@aol.com) 8. 01:47 PM - 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start (froghair) 9. 02:11 PM - Re: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start (Thilo Kind) 10. 02:34 PM - Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (rampil) 11. 03:30 PM - Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (Roger Lee) 12. 03:50 PM - Re: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start (Roger Lee) 13. 03:52 PM - Re: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start (Scott DeMeyer) 14. 03:59 PM - Re: Rotax 503 (rayw) 15. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (Tom463@aol.com) 16. 06:01 PM - Re: Rotax 503 (rayw) 17. 06:33 PM - Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (rampil) 18. 06:45 PM - Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (Roger Lee) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:18 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published in December! Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 USA (Please include your email address on the check!) I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:41 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 Hi! Ray If it is a points ignition have you tested the condenser? Regards Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayw Sent: 22 November 2009 03:21 Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 Hello, I cannot seem to find a Rotax 503 repair manual for purchase. Does any one know of a source. It would be nice to know things like bolt torque specs and pattern, plug gap, acceptable cylinder compression etc. I did a compression check and got 115 front and back. The plug gap should be ok because the plugs are brand new. The prop is bolted on and is providing a suitable load. All fuel lines are brand new including the impulse line for the fuel pump. The impulse line is 6 inches long and was ordered from LEAF specifically for this purpose. The entire fuel system is brand new. This airplane did not even have a fuel tank when I bought it. It is an older engine with points ignition. I was told the engine has 160 hours. Both slides are reacting the same when responding to the throttle. Thanks every one!! Ray Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274171#274171 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:32 AM PST US From: "Dave G" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 Never assume the plugs are gapped properly because they are new, in fact it's likely they aren't. ----- Original Message ----- From: "rayw" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:20 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 > > Hello, > > I cannot seem to find a Rotax 503 repair manual for purchase. Does any one > know of a source. It would be nice to know things like bolt torque specs > and pattern, plug gap, acceptable cylinder compression etc. > > I did a compression check and got 115 front and back. The plug gap should > be ok because the plugs are brand new. The prop is bolted on and is > providing a suitable load. All fuel lines are brand new including the > impulse line for the fuel pump. The impulse line is 6 inches long and was > ordered from LEAF specifically for this purpose. The entire fuel system is > brand new. This airplane did not even have a fuel tank when I bought it. > It is an older engine with points ignition. I was told the engine has 160 > hours. Both slides are reacting the same when responding to the throttle. > > Thanks every one!! > > Ray > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274171#274171 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:37 AM PST US From: "Dave G" Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 service manual Here is a link for the support documents for your engine. http://www.rotax-owner.com/index.htm Under support. ----- Original Message ----- From: "rayw" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:20 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 > > Hello, > > I cannot seem to find a Rotax 503 repair manual for purchase. Does any one > know of a source. It would be nice to know things like bolt torque specs > and pattern, plug gap, acceptable cylinder compression etc. > > I did a compression check and got 115 front and back. The plug gap should > be ok because the plugs are brand new. The prop is bolted on and is > providing a suitable load. All fuel lines are brand new including the > impulse line for the fuel pump. The impulse line is 6 inches long and was > ordered from LEAF specifically for this purpose. The entire fuel system is > brand new. This airplane did not even have a fuel tank when I bought it. > It is an older engine with points ignition. I was told the engine has 160 > hours. Both slides are reacting the same when responding to the throttle. > > Thanks every one!! > > Ray > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274171#274171 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:02 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 > It is an older engine with points ignition. I was told the > engine has 160 hours. Check the crank seal behind the points, this sounds kind of like a bad crank seal. As for the service manuals, they are available for free from the rotax owners site www.rotax-owner.com One more thing to check is the internal condition of your exhaust. Remember, on two stroke engines, the muffler can is just as important as the carburetor for proper running. I had a muffler come apart inside and couldn't generate enough power to get into the air. Do Not Archive Doug MacDonald Zenith CH-701 Scratch builder Former Skyseeker MKII pilot __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:14 AM PST US From: Blumax008@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 In a message dated 11/21/2009 4:06:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, joeing701@internet.is writes: The tube from the crank to the fuel pump. Make sure that it is not from a thin wall tube and not too long. If so, it could clamp together and prevent the fuel pump to suck enough fuel to the carbs. My thought exactly! Back in '79 I had an old Yamaha 18hp single lunger on an old Quicksilver weight shift. I put a new "Ace Hardware Store" clear plastic fuel line on it...impluse line to fuel pump...it was so weak that when power was applied, it would actually shrink in size, cut down on fuel flow & engine would bog or go to high temps...or both. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 service manual From: Richard Girard I went to the Rotax Austrian site. No overhaul manual is available, same for a Heavy Maintenance Manual. The only HMM available at Rotax classes (at least at Lockwood) is the HMM for the 462, 532, 582 series water cooled engines. This too is unavailable from Rotax Gmbh. Here's the only thing that comes close (attached). I recommend you go the the Rotax owners site and get the Illustrated Parts Catalog too. It's too big to send as an attachment. It has torque tables for all the screws and bolts used and schematic drawings with a parts list for each section of the engine. BEWARE the tap tight screw. You can tell this baby by the three lobe shape of the threads. It's a self tapper and has a MUCH lower torque requirement than a regular screw. This is where the IPC is indispensable, IMHO, because it will identify exactly where it is used in the parts list that accompanies the breakdown drawing. If you are keeping this engine long term you might want to consider swapping out the points for a CDI. Last make sure the plug gap is .018", not looks right, Rotax ignitions have a notoriously weak spark. Get an inline spark checker ($2 from Harbor Freight, more money to the Chicoms but we're in so deep, now....) It's almost impossible to see a Rotax spark at the plug and while a points ignition will survive if you don't have a good ground, a CDI won't. (big buck, many flowers to wife, etc, etc.) Good luck, Rick On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:55 AM, Dave G wrote: > > Here is a link for the support documents for your engine. > http://www.rotax-owner.com/index.htm > > Under support. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "rayw" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:20 PM > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 > > >> >> Hello, >> >> I cannot seem to find a Rotax 503 repair manual for purchase. Does any one >> know of a source. It would be nice to know things like bolt torque specs and >> pattern, plug gap, acceptable cylinder compression etc. >> >> I did a compression check and got 115 front and back. The plug gap should >> be ok because the plugs are brand new. The prop is bolted on and is >> providing a suitable load. All fuel lines are brand new including the >> impulse line for the fuel pump. The impulse line is 6 inches long and was >> ordered from LEAF specifically for this purpose. The entire fuel system is >> brand new. This airplane did not even have a fuel tank when I bought it. >> It is an older engine with points ignition. I was told the engine has 160 >> hours. Both slides are reacting the same when responding to the throttle. >> >> Thanks every one!! >> >> Ray >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274171#274171 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:49 PM PST US From: Blumax008@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. I got the following (in red) from Ask.com. Bear in mind that it relates to Ethanol used in Automobiles...not 2-cycle Rotax engines. With that in mind, does anyone know if Ethanol will affect the rubber (neoprene?) Viton tip used on the float needle valve in a Rotax carb? Also, is the Viton tip made of rubber or neoprene? Lost 90% power the other day due to fuel starvation in one carb (dual carb 503). The float bowl was flooding previously (overflowing thru vent tube) but was still performing normally. When it lost power on a later flight (which resulted in an off airport landing), the same float bowl was empty. An A&I mechanic said that the Viton tip could stick both ways causing fuel overflow & fuel starvation. I disassembled the float needle valve & Viton tip & found that the Viton tip had some deterioration but am not sure this caused the sticking. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this? A 10% blend of ethanol and gasoline will not harm any engine or fuel system component. However, the ethanol has a cleaning effect that will remove rust and other junk from the fuel system. This necessitates frequent fuel filter changes until the fuel system is cleaned out. No modifications need to be done to allow an engine to run on a 10% blend of ethanol and gasoline. There is, in some areas, an 85% blend of ethanol and gasoline that does require engine modifications. Actually there is no rubber used in the fuel system. All the fuel lines are made of Neoprene which is impervious to degradation by gasoline or other additives. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:17 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start From: "froghair" Wondered if anyone has experienced this: On cold start, anytime OAT is below ~60F, with full choke (enricher), engine will start but shake violently as though not running on all cylinders. I have to coax it to take any throttle increase for up to ~30 seconds. As soon as it will take throttle, it breaks out of this 'harmonic' and runs normally and will do so until allowed to cool back down to ambient temperature. Engine info: Older (1997) engine - no clutch gearbox. ~820 hours. Installed on RANS S-6. 3-blade Warp Drive taper-tip prop. Carb kits (from CPS) including diaphragms, floats, float needles installed at ~700hrs. What I've already done/checked: Carbs balanced - numerous times. Cold cranking RPM checked at ~325. New belville washers and shims in gearbox. Carburetors inspected/cleaned numerous times especially enricher circuit. Carb boots inspected. Ignition inspected/checked - pick-up coils checked for proper resistance. Start on one mag, start on both mags, start with throttle at idle stop, start with throttle barely open (killed warm engine idling at 2200rpm and didn't move throttle until next cold start). Nothing helps and I'm just about out of ideas! Keep in mind that it runs perfectly once it gets out of this ugly mode. Warm starts are no problem. Thanks in advance, Mick in Tulsa Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274329#274329 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:20 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start Hi Mick, Mine does the same at temps below 50. Take 15 to 20 sec to normal behaviour. Engine is on the plane since 2001; so far no adverse effects found. Cheers Thilo -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of froghair Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 22:47 Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start Wondered if anyone has experienced this: On cold start, anytime OAT is below ~60F, with full choke (enricher), engine will start but shake violently as though not running on all cylinders. I have to coax it to take any throttle increase for up to ~30 seconds. As soon as it will take throttle, it breaks out of this 'harmonic' and runs normally and will do so until allowed to cool back down to ambient temperature. Engine info: Older (1997) engine - no clutch gearbox. ~820 hours. Installed on RANS S-6. 3-blade Warp Drive taper-tip prop. Carb kits (from CPS) including diaphragms, floats, float needles installed at ~700hrs. What I've already done/checked: Carbs balanced - numerous times. Cold cranking RPM checked at ~325. New belville washers and shims in gearbox. Carburetors inspected/cleaned numerous times especially enricher circuit. Carb boots inspected. Ignition inspected/checked - pick-up coils checked for proper resistance. Start on one mag, start on both mags, start with throttle at idle stop, start with throttle barely open (killed warm engine idling at 2200rpm and didn't move throttle until next cold start). Nothing helps and I'm just about out of ideas! Keep in mind that it runs perfectly once it gets out of this ugly mode. Warm starts are no problem. Thanks in advance, Mick in Tulsa Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274329#274329 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07:38:00 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:14 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. From: "rampil" Viton is a mixture of synthetic rubber and fluorocarbon polymer it is neither rubber nor neoprene. it comes in many variants and some are sensitive to organic solvents like ethanol. So far as I know, nothing in the rotax engine family is sensitive to ethanol -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274332#274332 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:15 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. From: "Roger Lee" Rampil is right, nothing in the carb should be an issue for the 10% or less ethanol. There was an SB out for some of the older float needles. If you have an engine over approx. 5-6 years old the SB might pertain to you. You will need to look this up because I can't remember off the top of my head where the cut off was. The float needles have springs in them and they wear out. The old Viton tipped needle was red and the new ones are black. Plus there were a couple of other colors that had different spring pressures. Make sure your up to date on the right needle valve and make sure it is not just plain old and worn out. If you have a float needle older than 3 years old it should be replaced any way because it is getting old and worn. Many parts should not just wear out and quit before replacement. They have a timed life and these parts should be thrown away. Rotax wants all rubber parts replaced regardless of hours every 5 years. Rubber gets hard and may break or break down inside and get places you don't want it to go. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274337#274337 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:21 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start From: "Roger Lee" First narrow the gap on your plugs to .024 to start and if it is slightly better try .022. Cold starts if that is the actual problem is hard on engines. If it continues think about preheating the engine. Narrow the gap on the plugs first and let us know. What is your mag drop rpm and at what rpm is this test done? -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274340#274340 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:18 PM PST US From: Scott DeMeyer Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start Hi Mick, my 912 does exactly the same thing as well. I have determined the cause to be it's just a cold blooded beast. I think some people use a prehe ater to avoid the cold starting issue but I don't. Scott --- On Sun, 11/22/09, froghair wrote: From: froghair Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start Wondered if anyone has experienced this: On cold start, anytime OAT is below ~60F, with full choke (enricher), engin e will start but shake violently as though not running on all cylinders. I have to coax it to take any throttle increase for up to ~30 seconds. As soo n as it will take throttle, it breaks out of this 'harmonic' and runs norma lly and will do so until allowed to cool back down to ambient temperature. Engine info: Older (1997) engine - no clutch gearbox. ~820 hours. Installed on RANS S-6. 3-blade Warp Drive taper-tip prop. Carb kits (from CPS) including diaphragms, floats, float needles installed at ~700hrs. What I've already done/checked: Carbs balanced - numerous times. Cold cranking RPM checked at ~325. New belville washers and shims in gearbox. Carburetors inspected/cleaned numerous times especially enricher circuit. Carb boots inspected. Ignition inspected/checked - pick-up coils checked for proper resistance. Start on one mag, start on both mags, start with throttle at idle stop, sta rt with throttle barely open (killed warm engine idling at 2200rpm and didn 't move throttle until next cold start). Nothing helps and I'm just about out of ideas! Keep in mind that it runs pe rfectly once it gets out of this ugly mode. Warm starts are no problem. Thanks in advance, Mick in Tulsa Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274329#274329 le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:17 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 From: "rayw" Hello, As soon as I wrote that the plugs were new and should be ok I knew I was gonna' catch it. Rightly so.........My High school shop teacher would have smacked me for that comment. I just went out and checked them. They are far in excess of .015/.019. I did not close them up yet or run the engine but I am going to feel super silly if this is the trouble. Oh yeah.....With the plugs out I did another compression test. I got 112 in back and 120 in front. Seems low..Is it? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274344#274344 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:16 PM PST US From: Tom463@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. I just had the 200 hour service done on my 1 year old 912S. I always used 93 Octane auto gas. Non-Ethanol auto gas is no longer available in this area. The floats in the carburetors were found to be detoriating and flakes large enough to clog the main jet were about to separate. It is possible the floats were from a bad batch of resin; however, the Rotax Service Center believed the cause was Ethanol in the gas. They showed me a carburetor float bowl with corrision in the bottom of the bowl. It was from a 200 hour, 5 year old 912S. Also, attributed to Ethanol fuel and infrequent flying. I'll be using 100LL from now on. Tom Yowell N569AT ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:43 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 From: "rayw" Is anyone on this list from UK, Ireland or Iceland? Thanks, Ray W. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274358#274358 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:07 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. From: "rampil" Tom, Just out of curiosity, which Rotax Service center did you have work on your engine. I have been using Mogas for 5.5 years about 275 hours. I have not seen any deterioration of any parts (except my first muffler which cracked in several places). -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274362#274362 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:34 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. From: "Roger Lee" I have seen a few floats flake, but usually older floats. A few new ones. I service lots of planes and almost all use ethanol and none have any issues. You add all these guys total hours and were talking tens of thousands of hours and no problems. The planes that are at least 4-5 years old ought to have the floats changed out and not just because of ethanol, but age. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. 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