---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/23/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:23 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 () 2. 01:13 AM - Re: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 3. 03:36 AM - Re: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (Tom463@aol.com) 4. 05:00 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 (ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk) 5. 05:12 AM - Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (lucien) 6. 05:17 AM - Re: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start912 80hp violent (Catz631@aol.com) 7. 05:49 AM - Re: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start912 80hp violent (Matt Tucciarone) 8. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 503 (Bob Brennan) 9. 07:03 AM - seeking comments on 914 (Ken Ryan) 10. 07:11 AM - Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (Roger Lee) 11. 07:28 AM - Re: seeking comments on 914 (David Joyce) 12. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. (Blumax008@aol.com) 13. 09:37 AM - Re: 582 egt mismatch (n757jh) 14. 06:07 PM - Re: seeking comments on 914 (Robert Borger) 15. 07:46 PM - Re: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start (froghair) 16. 09:34 PM - Re: seeking comments on 914 (Ken Ryan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:53 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 Hello Ray. Yes, I am from Iceland. Best regards, Johann G. On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:00:55 -0800, "rayw" wrote: > > Is anyone on this list from UK, Ireland or Iceland? > > Thanks, > > Ray W. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274358#274358 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:23 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. Viton is made of Viton (a fluoroelastomer) which has excellent resistance to alcohol, as does neoprene. However, the latter has poor resistance to the aromatics in 'high octane' fuels (eg super-unleaded). Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Blumax008@aol.com To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 8:01 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. I got the following (in red) from Ask.com. Bear in mind that it relates to Ethanol used in Automobiles...not 2-cycle Rotax engines. With that in mind, does anyone know if Ethanol will affect the rubber (neoprene?) Viton tip used on the float needle valve in a Rotax carb? Also, is the Viton tip made of rubber or neoprene? Lost 90% power the other day due to fuel starvation in one carb (dual carb 503). The float bowl was flooding previously (overflowing thru vent tube) but was still performing normally. When it lost power on a later flight (which resulted in an off airport landing), the same float bowl was empty. An A&I mechanic said that the Viton tip could stick both ways causing fuel overflow & fuel starvation. I disassembled the float needle valve & Viton tip & found that the Viton tip had some deterioration but am not sure this caused the sticking. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this? A 10% blend of ethanol and gasoline will not harm any engine or fuel system component. However, the ethanol has a cleaning effect that will remove rust and other junk from the fuel system. This necessitates frequent fuel filter changes until the fuel system is cleaned out. No modifications need to be done to allow an engine to run on a 10% blend of ethanol and gasoline. There is, in some areas, an 85% blend of ethanol and gasoline that does require engine modifications. Actually there is no rubber used in the fuel system. All the fuel lines are made of Neoprene which is impervious to degradation by gasoline or other additives. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:46 AM PST US From: Tom463@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. Lockwood Aviation, Sebring, Fl ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:29 AM PST US From: "ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 Hi! The real test for compressions should give you the best engine health test, that is to say a compression drop test . Have you done a propper comparrison compression drop test ? You would be allowed a maximum of 25% loss over perfect starting at 80 psi. Watch your head doing it because if the prop gets away from top dead centre it will damage your head! Regards |Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa 914 >----Original Message---- >From: rmwis@charter.net >Date: 22/11/2009 23:59 >To: >Subj: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 > > >Hello, > >As soon as I wrote that the plugs were new and should be ok I knew I was gonna' catch it. Rightly so.........My High school shop teacher would have smacked me for that comment. > >I just went out and checked them. They are far in excess of .015/. 019. I did not close them up yet or run the engine but I am going to feel super silly if this is the trouble. Oh yeah.....With the plugs out I did another compression test. I got 112 in back and 120 in front. Seems low..Is it? > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274344#274344 > > The latest news as it happens - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/news ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:16 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. From: "lucien" I've become a 10% believer myself since the SB approving 10% finally came out this past summer. Switched to it the next day and have had no issues that I've been able to see in my 912. When I bought my plane a couple years ago, the bottoms of the bowls did have a scaley buildup. But I've seen that so much with my other engines, namely my 2-strokes, that I don't even think anything of it anymore. When it starts to build up I simply dremel it out with a wire brush and carefully clean it all up, blow it out with compressed air etc. I don't think that has anything to do with 10% and for all I know the 10% probably helps keep everything clean in the system ;). I kept an eagle eye out on my fuel filter and fuel lines for the first several tanks after the switch, but had zero problems. As for 100LL, a friend of mine ran almost all 100LL through his 912uls for quite a long time, even using full synthetic oil (Mobile 1). After a couple oil changes he pulled his oil tank and found no sludge buildup whatsoever. All he needed to do was wipe a little film off the bottom of the tank and that was it. Course I wouldn't necessarily recommend deviating from the rotax maintenance schedule for 100LL based on that, but it was pretty interesting to me. LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274396#274396 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:07 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start912 80hp violent Thilo, I too have the same problems on cold start sometimes All that rattling around at low rpm is not good for the gearbox.( or engine either) Don't let it sit there trying to pick up rpm! When mine gets "stuck" at that low rpm (around 1000-1200) I shut the engine down and try it again and it generally will pick up rpms during the next start attempt or two.If I don't I can move the throttle all over the place and the engine rpm just stays put at that low rpm. They mentioned in my Rotax class that this was not an uncommon thing on this engine although it has been two years since I attended so I can't remember the reason why it does this sometimes but I do remember the instructor saying to shut the engine down and try again. My engine has a primer only and no choke so I give it another squirt or two, vary throttle setting,etc just as you do, in an attempt to get it out of this "funk" I think I would use Roger's suggestion on the plug gap as he usually has a good handle on what is going on with this engine. I will probably try that too. This is a weird engine! It runs smooth (mostly) but it takes attention. (certainly more then my previous Lycs/Continentals) Dick Maddux 912UL Milton,Fl ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:50 AM PST US From: "Matt Tucciarone" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start912 80hp violent The soft start module really helped me. _____ From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catz631@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:15 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start912 80hp violent Thilo, I too have the same problems on cold start sometimes All that rattling around at low rpm is not good for the gearbox.( or engine either) Don't let it sit there trying to pick up rpm! When mine gets "stuck" at that low rpm (around 1000-1200) I shut the engine down and try it again and it generally will pick up rpms during the next start attempt or two.If I don't I can move the throttle all over the place and the engine rpm just stays put at that low rpm. They mentioned in my Rotax class that this was not an uncommon thing on this engine although it has been two years since I attended so I can't remember the reason why it does this sometimes but I do remember the instructor saying to shut the engine down and try again. My engine has a primer only and no choke so I give it another squirt or two, vary throttle setting,etc just as you do, in an attempt to get it out of this "funk" I think I would use Roger's suggestion on the plug gap as he usually has a good handle on what is going on with this engine. I will probably try that too. This is a weird engine! It runs smooth (mostly) but it takes attention. (certainly more then my previous Lycs/Continentals) Dick Maddux 912UL Milton,Fl ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:42 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 I am from the UK, moved to the US, flying a Kitfox II built in the UK - what's your real question Ray? Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayw Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:01 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 503 Is anyone on this list from UK, Ireland or Iceland? Thanks, Ray W. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274358#274358 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:34 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: seeking comments on 914 From: Ken Ryan Hello list, I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914. I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because that's an option, too. Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a firewall forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm also wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to accommodate the 914. So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Ken Ryan ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:50 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. From: "Roger Lee" 100LL won't leave a sludge. It will leave over time regardless of the oil a grey film on the bottom of the oil tank. This is the lead falling out of solution and building up in the bottom of the tank. It will do this in your gearbox and crankcase too. The full synthetic oil will not suspend the lead at all and it will fall out in greater qualities compared to semi synthetic and full dino based oils. At the 800 hr mark you ought to see the grey lead build up in your gearbox clutch. If not removed it will keep the clutch from functioning. If you can use 91 Oct. you are better off if not then use the fuel additive Decalin. You can get it from Aircraft Spruce. Use it at 1/2 oz. per 10 gals. of 100LL. This additive won't help the oil, but will help keep it out of the fuel burning areas. TCP is no longer approved for a Rotax engine. They are now finding problems with people who have used TCP. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274412#274412 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:42 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: seeking comments on 914 Ken, At sea level or 2000 ft there doesnt seem to be too much difference between a 914 and a 912S, but performance and fuel consumption deteriorate fairly markedly with altitude for the 912S whereas the 914 has 100% power to 17,000 ft and the fuel economy improves with height. To illustrate that my 914 Europa will do 156kts (TAS) at 200ft and 164kts at 6500ft and well over its Vne at 10,000ft. At 2000ft it does 140 kts at 23 litres/hr but at 10,000ft it will do 150kts at only 21 litres/hr I cannot lay my hands on the figures but a recent Europa strand showed progressively worsening figures with altitude up to the sensible, practical limit of 10,000ft So my answer would be that it very much depends on what you hope to do with your aeroplane. If you want to do much mountain flying or serious long distance flights, then go for the 914. If you mostly think you will fly around under the usual 3000ft cloud base then save your money. The firewall forward set up is very similar, apart from needing an airbox at lower port side to feed the turbo inlet, fed from a NACA inlet. It won't be precisely adapted to your plane but Europa Aircraft will I am sure be able to sell you one of their firewall forward kits which might be reasonably easily modified. Regards, David Joyce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Ryan" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: seeking comments on 914 > Hello list, > > I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that > seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914. > > I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because > that's > an option, too. > > Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a > firewall > forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm also > wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to > accommodate the 914. > > So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Ken Ryan > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:21 AM PST US From: Blumax008@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Viton tips & Ethanol etc. In a message dated 11/22/2009 5:34:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ira.rampil@gmail.com writes: Viton is a mixture of synthetic rubber and fluorocarbon polymer it is neither rubber nor neoprene. Nothing like posting a question, then getting a reply & feeling stupid. So Viton is neither rubber nor neoprene! Thanks for that. Had no ideee! Thanks to all who answered. An excelllent 2-sicle mechanic friend of mine says there's a possibility that the Viton tip could be swelling on me. Good thought. Does anyone know if this could be true? The reason that he & I think it could be true is that I had a Phantom that was overheating like hell on me. After going thru jet cleanings & jet changes to no avail, I had him send me two carbs which I exchanged onto the Trike. It cured the problem immediately. I sent him the old carbs which he tore down & couldn't find a thing wrong with them. The only thing he can figure is...Viton tip swelling...which would also explain the fuel overflow / starvation problem I had on my Trike a few days ago. The problem is that I've been flying these contraptions for a very long time. I mostly left my old Trike in my front yard for years...like 12 years, flew it often but it never gave me a problem...especially a carb problem. NOW, since I've been using Ethanol laced fuel for the past few months, I've had nothing but carb problems. Are my carbs haunted since we just passed Halloween or does Ethanol have more to do with it than I think? ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:15 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 582 egt mismatch From: "n757jh" All, Sorry to revive a dormant thread, but I'm having a similar problem and wonder if this was resolved and what the problem was. Recently rebuilt 582, EGT difference 200-300F with front cyl being hotter. Problem started showing up on first flight around the pattern when front cyl reached 1300F. Joanne Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274426#274426 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: seeking comments on 914 From: Robert Borger Ken, The 914 is a fine engine if you need the turbo and power. Will you be operating at high density altitudes? In the mountains? Doing long cross country flying where you need to fly high? Do you really need those extra 15 horses to get in/out of tight strips? If you answer yes to any of those question, you may need the 914. If not, the 912S is a lot less expensive. As for the differences in installation. The biggest differences are in the induction system and the exhaust system. All because of the turbo. The 912 usually has the air intake on the top of the cowl and into a fiberglass or plastic plenum where it is divided and sent to either side to the carbs. The 914 has the intake on the lower starboard (right viewed from pilot seat) where the turbo inlet resides. The turbo sends it upward into the big aluminum manifold where it is split into the carbs. The 914 also has a lot of electrical connections for sensors for the turbo controller that the 912 doesn't have. And, of course, the 914 has a turbo waste gate controller to set and adjust manifold pressure. You can go to the Europa web site ( http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ ) to the "Builder Assistance" area, "Builders Manuals" and download the Europa installation manuals for both the 912 and 914 to get an idea of the differences. Perhaps, Europa would sell you a FF kit for the 914 should you decide you need one. Hope this helps, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Aircraft Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Nov 23, 2009, at 9:00, Ken Ryan wrote: > Hello list, > > I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914. > > I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because that's an option, too. > > Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a firewall forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm also wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to accommodate the 914. > > So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Ken Ryan > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:12 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 80hp violent vibration on cold start From: "froghair" Thanks for all the input. Peter Rees sent me a PM describing an identical situation that was caused by the starter sprag clutch NOT disengaging when the engine 'caught' and thereby limiting rpm in the violent shaking mode for much longer than it should ever be. He also noticed the condition only at colder ambient temperatures and could not feed-in any throttle until the clutch eventually decided to let go. I would like to test this - somehow - any ideas? I would expect that if the starter sprag clutch is 'dragging,' then the engine should be spinning (or trying to spin) the starter much faster than was ever intended. Have any of those who've said, "mine does that too" had problems with damaged starter motors? Thanks, Mick in Tulsa Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274498#274498 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: seeking comments on 914 From: Ken Ryan Thanks Robert, I'm in Alaska, so mountain flying is on the agenda (some mighty big mountains). Short strips are also in the equation. Any thoughts on reliability of 914 vs 912 -- that's an important consideration to me, too. Ken Ryan On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > Ken, > > The 914 is a fine engine if you need the turbo and power. Will you be > operating at high density altitudes? In the mountains? Doing long cross > country flying where you need to fly high? Do you really need those extra > 15 horses to get in/out of tight strips? > > If you answer yes to any of those question, you may need the 914. If not, > the 912S is a lot less expensive. > > As for the differences in installation. The biggest differences are in the > induction system and the exhaust system. All because of the turbo. The 912 > usually has the air intake on the top of the cowl and into a fiberglass or > plastic plenum where it is divided and sent to either side to the carbs. > The 914 has the intake on the lower starboard (right viewed from pilot > seat) where the turbo inlet resides. The turbo sends it upward into the big > aluminum manifold where it is split into the carbs. > > The 914 also has a lot of electrical connections for sensors for the turbo > controller that the 912 doesn't have. And, of course, the 914 has a turbo > waste gate controller to set and adjust manifold pressure. > > You can go to the Europa web site ( http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ ) to > the "Builder Assistance" area, "Builders Manuals" and download the Europa > installation manuals for both the 912 and 914 to get an idea of the > differences. Perhaps, Europa would sell you a FF kit for the 914 should you > decide you need one. > > Hope this helps, > Bob Borger > Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S > http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL > Aircraft Flying! > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208 > Home: 940-497-2123 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > > > On Nov 23, 2009, at 9:00, Ken Ryan wrote: > > Hello list, > > I'm building a Zenith CH-750 and am pondering engine choices. The one that > seems to me to be the "best" choice for my mission is the Rotax 914. > > I would like comments on this engine, comparing it to the 912 because > that's an option, too. > > Also, if I do decide to use the 914 there most likely will not be a > firewall forward kit, although there will be a 912 firewall forward kit. I'm > also wondering just how much modification would be required to the 912 FF to > accommodate the 914. > > So, general comments on the 914 AND specific comments on the FF situation > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Ken Ryan > > > * > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.