Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:04 AM - Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Thom Riddle)
2. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Bob Comperini)
3. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (FLYaDIVE)
4. 09:26 AM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (AmphibFlyer)
5. 10:16 AM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (lucien)
6. 10:49 AM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (AmphibFlyer)
7. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Gilles Thesee)
8. 11:21 AM - Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Roger Lee)
9. 11:52 AM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (AmphibFlyer)
10. 11:59 AM - Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Roger Lee)
11. 12:29 PM - Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Thom Riddle)
12. 12:31 PM - Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Roger Lee)
13. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (FLYaDIVE)
14. 12:36 PM - Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Thom Riddle)
15. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Richard Girard)
16. 12:45 PM - Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Thom Riddle)
17. 12:49 PM - Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA (Roger Lee)
18. 12:54 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Richard Girard)
19. 01:03 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Richard Girard)
20. 01:25 PM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (AmphibFlyer)
21. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Chris Blackmore)
22. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
23. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (FLYaDIVE)
24. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Richard Girard)
25. 07:13 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Richard Girard)
26. 07:40 PM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (lucien)
27. 07:46 PM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (lucien)
28. 08:01 PM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (lucien)
29. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Gilles Thesee)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Interesting reading, indeed.
Roger,
I have a couple question regarding this subject:
1) Can you quote line and verse in the ASTM rules that state that a certified mechanic
must have Engine Manufacturer's Certification to work on that engine in
an SLSA? If so, please do.
2) I've not read any recent revisions of the ASTM rule but if my memory is correct,
the manufacturer is responsible for stating the qualification requirements
of mechanics or repairmen who do work on their SLSA aircraft. Is this not still
the case? If it is still the case, then what certifications a mechanic or
repariman must have is dictated in that specific manufacturer's maintenance manual.
If it is not the case then it must be stated in the ASTM rules for certification
to be mandatory.
I've just finished reading the current (Oct/2009) 912 Maintenance Manual, particularly
the parts about who can work on these engines, i.e., pages 18, 24 & 28.
Careful reading of this indicates to me that CERTIFICATION by Rotax is not an
absolute requirement by BRP-Powertrain. Qualification can be attained by alternate
methods, according to my reading of this document. CERTIFICATION by Rotax
may or may not be a requirement of the individual SLSA manufacturers.
I'm not trying to get into an argument with you, Roger, but just because Rainbow
Aviation makes a statement, does not mean it is true. Same for EAA. The only
written statements that carry legal weight are from the FAA (in the USA), ASTM
(for SLSA), and the manufacturers maintenance manuals and pertinent documentation.
If none of these make the statement that CERTIFICATION from Rotax is mandatory,
then it is not a legal requirement.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279394#279394
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
On 07:04 AM 12/31/2009, Thom Riddle wrote:
>I've just finished reading the current (Oct/2009) 912 Maintenance Manual, particularly
the parts about who can work on these engines, i.e., pages 18, 24 & 28.
Careful reading of this indicates to me that CERTIFICATION by Rotax is not
an absolute requirement by BRP-Powertrain. Qualification can be attained by alternate
methods, according to my reading of this document. CERTIFICATION by Rotax
may or may not be a requirement of the individual SLSA manufacturers.
The way I read it...
In the various maintenance manuals, Rotax has an "Authorized Personnel" chapter
(for example, chapter 05-00-00, section 1.2 of the line maintenance manual),
detailing "who" can work on their engines. From that chapter, I see two ways to
be allowed to work on their engines, but both appear to require training from
Rotax.
If the aircraft manufacturer "passed the buck" and instructs maintenance in accordance
with Rotax (which I think most do), then the Rotax rules apply. I suppose
the SLSA manufacturer could over rule Rotax, and their maintenance requirements,
but I don't know of any that do. They'd be taking on a bunch of engine
liability, if they did.
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
SeaRay:
I am a very single minded, serial input, data digesting machine.
Your response opens up many more questions:
[SeaRay]: Nope, it didn't get above 900 rpm. It maxed out there and wouldn't
accelerate even to normal idle speed
1 - How long did you let the engine run in the 900 RPM range before calling
it quits?
2 - What Oil Temps were you seeing while it was running in the 900 RPM range
and before you shut it down?
[SeaRay]: The last time it ran normally, the OAT was about 60 F. It had
trouble getting past 900, but did after several seconds of chugging.
3 - What is your definition of "RAN NORMALLY" ... IF it had trouble getting
past 900 RPM?
[SeaRay]: At 45 F it would fire on all cylinders but couldn't break 900 rpm
(approximately).
4 - Crazy question here .... How do you KNOW it was firing on ALL cylinders?
[SeaRay]: ... if the spark plug gaps are correct (.024, or less), which they
were on this engine.
5 - I am at a disadvantage here, I do not know (now) the spark plug or gap
requirement. but, 0.024" seems on the low side for a CDI. I run 0.035" on
platum plugs in an O-360 with a CDI.
OK, lets see what ideas we can come up with with the available info:
a> Sure sounds like Pre-Heat would help a lot.
b> Also sounds like a vacuum leak on the intake.
c> Running too lean also fits the low RPM and inability to accelerate.
d> Incorrect routing of Spark Plug wires.
e> Incorrect Timing would produce the same results.
f> Does the ignition have Vacuum Advance? A leak there or totally
disconnected ... Same results.
When you throw the book on the table there are MANY possibilities /
variables, above are just starting points. Are there ANY situation that do
produce acceptable results?
Let's take each individual item and eliminate it as a variable. Lets
produce a list of KNOWN GOOD ITEMS.
Barry
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:57 PM, AmphibFlyer <
SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>
>
> flyadive(at)gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > From what you say ... It DID get above 900 RPM just took a long time to
> get the engine warm?
>
> Nope, it didn't get above 900 rpm. It maxed out there and wouldn't
> accelerate even to normal idle speed.
>
> The last time it ran normally, the OAT was about 60 F. It had trouble
> getting past 900, but did after several seconds of chugging. At 45 F it
> would fire on all cylinders but couldn't break 900 rpm (approximately). I
> didn't pre-heat the engine, but I'm sure that low temperature is not the
> problem; it just makes the problem worse. These engines start just fine down
> to 0 F and below if the spark plug gaps are correct (.024, or less), which
> they were on this engine.
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
lucien wrote:
> Don't know if 2-stroke experience crosses over here, but two things that I've
seen cause this kind of behavior are
> - huge, massively heavy prop
> - weak gearbox springs
I think it's probably the gearbox springs, too. I didn't want to say so at first
for fear of biasing any responses. This engine behaves a lot like mine did at
about 400 hours: It would fire on all cylinders, but would not speed up past
about 1,000 rpm. An aural indication was sort of a "chucka-chucka" sound as the
engine tried to speed up. The remedy was to remove the gearbox and send it
to Lockwood for replacement (and shimming) of the springs. On this engine, the
sound is somewhat different than mine produced. That's why I'm not sure I've
diagnosed the problem correctly. But the other indications seem the same.
But there could be other causes as well, so if anyone has ideas, please let me
know.
Also, if anyone knows why weak or worn springs prevent the engine from speeding
up, I hope you'll explain it to me. I know that the ignition timing advances
between about 600 and 900 rpm on these engines, but I don't really understand
why the gearbox springs would affect the rpm, regardless of whether the timing
is retarded for starting, or advanced for running.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279431#279431
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
AmphibFlyer wrote:
>
> lucien wrote:
> > Don't know if 2-stroke experience crosses over here, but two things that I've
seen cause this kind of behavior are
> > - huge, massively heavy prop
> > - weak gearbox springs
>
>
> I think it's probably the gearbox springs, too. I didn't want to say so at first
for fear of biasing any responses. This engine behaves a lot like mine did
at about 400 hours: It would fire on all cylinders, but would not speed up past
about 1,000 rpm. An aural indication was sort of a "chucka-chucka" sound as
the engine tried to speed up. The remedy was to remove the gearbox and send it
to Lockwood for replacement (and shimming) of the springs. On this engine, the
sound is somewhat different than mine produced, and that's why I'm not sure
I've diagnosed the problem correctly. But the other indications seem the same.
>
> But there could be other causes as well (such as a bad sprag clutch), so if anyone
has ideas, please let me know.
>
> Also, if anyone knows why weak or worn springs prevent the engine from speeding
up, I hope you'll explain it to me. I know that the ignition timing advances
between about 600 and 900 rpm on these engines, but I don't really understand
why the gearbox springs can affect the rpm, regardless of whether the timing
is retarded for starting, or advanced for running.
Recip engines as you know rely on a flywheel effect in order to run. Some of the
kinetic energy of the power stroke is stored in a flywheel to carry out the
other 3 strokes (which are necessarily unpowered).
Weak springs in the gearbox can decouple the prop from the crankshaft such that
the flywheel effect needed for the engine to run correctly can be defeated in
just the right way at certain rpm's. This is caused by the exessive slipping
of the dog hub with the sudden reengagement as the hubs make contact at each side.
Years ago a friend of mine tried to design a prop extension on a 503 and he ran
into the same problem. It was a narrow steel shaft that flexed torsionally. The
engine would shake violently at a very low rpm until the crossbolt holding
the shaft to the gearbox adapter plate he made snapped. Then the engine would
run perfectly, albeit with the shaft slipping horribly.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279439#279439
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
lucien wrote:
> Recip engines as you know rely on a flywheel effect in order to run... Weak springs
in the gearbox can decouple the prop from the crankshaft such that the
flywheel effect needed for the engine to run correctly can be defeated in just
the right way at certain, usually very low, rpm's. This is caused by the exessive
slipping of the dog hub with the sudden reengagement as the hubs make contact
at each side.
Thanks, Lucien! That makes sense, and now I realize that the springs must be in
there at least partly to damp the lash in the gears at low rpm. These Rotax engines
have a flywheel (and will run smoothly without a prop), so I hadn't considered
the flywheel effect of the prop, resonance, and gear lash. Can't say
I like the spring solution, but I guess it works most of the time.
What puzzles me is that Rotax apparently hasn't bothered to mention this condition
in the maintenance or operator's manuals. At least, I haven't been able to
find any mention of it. Nor indications of the sprag clutch problem.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279445#279445
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
AmphibFlyer a crit :
> Rotax engines have a flywheel
AmphibFlyer,
Rotax engines have NO flywheel.
> (and will run smoothly without a prop)
Running a Rotax without a prop is a no-no.
Season's greetings
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Hi Bob,
You are exactly right. Most SLSA refer back to the Rotax manual which does say
you need some type of Rotax training. That means A&P's as well as RLSM's need
a class. For the mechanics the "Service " and "Line Maint" is the most useful.
Owners could get away with just a "Service" class because they aren't allowed
to remove components under SLSA rules anyway. The SLSA Mfg will never override
the Rotax manual because then they have to take all the liability. Some owners
even send their resident A&P to a Rotax class which is a great idea and benefits
both the mechanic and the owner. At least the "Service" class would let
owners do some of the easier and more common things like an oil change or plug
change and know what not to do or the right way to do it because it is different
than all other engines. You wouldn't believe the number of calls I get monthly
from owners that go, I made a mistake, just because they didn't know a simple
procedure was different on a Rotax and want to know how bad it will affect
the engine. I encourage all Rotax owners to take a Rotax class.
Hope all are having a nice Holidays,
Roger Lee
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279452#279452
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a no-no.
Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the other hand,
the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several places (July
01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't seem to show
a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop and relied
on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So maybe it
can be done and maybe it can't.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Hi Thom,
No argument here. I like to discuss things and actually happy to do so. I hope
you guys are staying warm back there?
I hope I don't muddy the waters more. The article is 100% correct. I have been
over this with Edsel Ford of the FAA (top LSA admin) and other SLSA Mfg's.
ASTM doesn't apply quite the same to SLSA as GA because we aren't certified aircraft
and the FAA gives the SLSA Mfg god like powers over their own aircraft.
(within reason of course). When reading the ASTM's you have to make sure in the
statement you are reading if it means certified aircraft, includes SLSA or exempts
SLSA and or gives power on that particular area to the SLSA Mfg.
You are right. The SLSA Mfg. dictates who can do the maint and what level of training
is required. If it isn't stated then an A&P or RLSM is good to go. Most
SLSA Mfg's state either "owner" for the simple things, RLSM or A&P for the other
items. If the SLSA Mfg says either and RLSM or A&P then that's it, the owner
is out of that function.
If the SLSA Mfg says follow the Rotax maint manual (like most do) then all have
to follow that directive. An SLSA Mfg must actually state Owner, RLSM or A&P
in their language. It absolutely can not just say an "RLSM or higher grade certificate".
I went through this with 2 SLSA mfg's and they had to correct their
language because the FAA doesn't have a higher grade certificate in the mechanic
ranks. In the pilot ranks yes, but not for mechanics. You are either an RLSM,
an A&P or an IA recognized by the FAA.
Here is an example:
In the Flight Design Maint manual under engine inspection it list "owner", but
he must follow the Rotax maint manual according to the that section.
So you go to the Rotax manual for authorization and it specifically states that
anyone regardless of your credentials must have a Rotax school.
So if the owner were to attend a Rotax school he would be allowed to do some things
on his own engine even if it is an SLSA. So long as you follow you LSA Mfg's
instructions.
These FD rules that give Rotax the final say on an authorization also apply to
RLSM's, A&P's and IA's.
It has nothing to do with the ASTM standards per-say. We are not certified aircraft
which means we tend to follow more of the SLSA's instructions or directives.
It is what is in each individual SLSA's maint manual and who they give permission
and if they say follow the Rotax manual. Then everyone is locked into
getting Rotax training regardless of your credentials.
The big catch phrase is"Does your SLSA maint. manual say to follow the Rotax manual"?
If it does then Rotax school is in your future.
As an A&P without a Rotax school you can't even sign off an annual condition inspection
if it included a Rotax engine. If an A&P signs off an annual and has
never been to a Rotax school then that SLSA is no longer airworthy.
The article spells this out very clearly. Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation is
on the committees that develop these rules and regs. for the SLSA community.
I have heard there are as many as 150 people on these committees including AOPA,
EAA, LSA mfgs and other concerned people.
If I muddied the water let me know and I'll try and word it better. Sometimes my
wording isn't as clear as it could be.
Have a good New Year, Thom,
Roger Lee
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279462#279462
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
To further confuse the issue, or at least make it even more "interesting", are
those type certificated aircraft that use type certificated Rotax 912 engines...
especially interesting since they existed before the ASTM and SP/LSA rule came
about. The Diamond Katana manual at the time of its last production (later
replaced with Cont. IO-240 engine) states
The following Documentation should be used in conjunction with this manual:
- DA 20 KATANA Flight Manual
- DA 20/100 KATANA Flight Manual
- Instruction Manual for the Hoffmann propeller
- Service Bulletins
- Operator's Manual for all versions of the ROTAX 912
- Maintenance Manual for ROTAX Engine Type 912 Series
and that is pretty much all it states regarding engine maintenance other than maintenance
and inspection schedule, which then refers to Rotax manuals. Interestingly,
Diamond REQUIRES use of 100LL as the only approved fuel.
Because it is a type certificated airplane you (Roger) as an RSLM cannot work on
the Rotax engine (or any other part of the airplane) except for preventive maintenance
and then only if you are the owner and have a Private Pilot or higher
certificate. But I can because I am a certified Powerplant Mechanic. Threading
the needle through the regulations requires patience and perseverance.
We got a break from the cold today. It went up to 34 today.
Happy New Year to all Rotaxers.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279470#279470
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Hi Thom,
I almost forgot. If you have an ELSA then this guy can do the work. [Laughing]
http://www.trunkmonkeyad.com/4qt.htm
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279472#279472
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Gilles is right 100%!
You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS a
flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is alive
to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP into a
RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally tear
itself apart / explode.
Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED? If
it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and vibration.
Barry
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>
>
> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
> no-no.
>
>
> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>
> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Only if the owner says he can :-).
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279476#279476
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Amphibflyer, You've posed a "how long is a piece of string" question and
there's just too much information missing to make any sort of reasonable
guess.
Has there ever been a time when this engine started and ran normally? How
long ago was that? How many hours are on this engine? Like others I'd like
to know what is known to be good.
Since it won't cost anything or require much in the way of disassembly,
given the temperatures you're quoted, I'd take the exhaust pipe off the
turbo and make sure there are no blockages in the turbine or the pipe. Rotax
engines don't have enough of a pulse coming out the pipe to blow off a zip
lock bag held on by a rubber band. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you had
a mouse nest in the pipe somewhere.
As Beauford says, "Worth what you paid for it"
Rick Girard
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>
>
> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
> no-no.
>
>
> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>
> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Suburban Auto Group does not operate in this part of the world so all those Trunk
Monkey commercials are completely new to me. I'll spread them around, 'cuz
they are indeed funny.
do not archive
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279482#279482
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Training Requirements and Your LSA |
Hi Thom,
Your right I can not work on "Certified" aircraft with my RLSM cert which makes
me happy to no end, especially when I see the other A&P's cussing up a storm
at the certified airplane that is usually old, oilly and needs lots of TLC.
The SLSA are all newer aircraft, clean and no parts falling off. I am tickled
pink not to have to work on 20-60 year old Cessna's or Piper's.
I really only specialize on LSA aircraft and Rotax engines and even more specifically
the 912. Specializing in only a single engine company and just a few LSA
aircraft lets me really stay up on all the specifics to the LSA community. I
think it helps me be more in tune with my customer's needs, too.
34F? It really gets that cold. Burrrr, I need a jacket below 72F. [Laughing]
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279483#279483
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How exactly
are you going to CLOCK it?
Rick Girard
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gilles is right 100%!
>
> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS a
> flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is alive
> to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP into
> a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally tear
> itself apart / explode.
>
> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED? If
> it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and vibration.
>
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
> SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>
>> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>>
>>
>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>> no-no.
>>
>>
>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>
>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
>> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
>> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>> lder's Bookstore
>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>> www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =============
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
I should have specified the 912/914 series, The two strokes run 2.00, 2.58,
3.47 and 4.00 that I can remember off hand.
Rick
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>
>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS a
>> flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is alive
>> to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP into
>> a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally tear
>> itself apart / explode.
>>
>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED? If
>> it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and vibration.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>> SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>>> no-no.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>
>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
>>> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
>>> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Attachments:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>> lder's Bookstore
>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> =============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
rickofudall wrote:
> Amphibflyer, ...Has there ever been a time when this engine started and ran normally?
How long ago was that? How many hours are on this engine?
Yes, yes, the engine has run almost 250 hours and it ran well a few weeks ago,
when I flew the airplane several times. The last time I flew it was when the engine
took a while to accelerate past about 900 rpm, and once it did the engine
ran well and the airplane flew fine. When I tried to fly it a few days later,
the temp was in the 40s F, and that time the engine would start but wouldn't
accelerate to normal idle speed. The problem is not related to spark plug gap
or the starting carburetors. I'm almost certain that it's caused by worn gearbox
springs, exacerbated by the cool temperature. Just wanted to see if my diagnosis
was likely to be correct, and Lucien's post seems to corroborate it.
In response to someone's observation about the narrow spark plug gap: Rotax says
that the normal range for 914 plugs is .024" to .028" and that for cold weather
they can be as tight as .020". My own 914 (with about 860 hours) always starts
in cold weather if the gaps are .025" or less--except for the one time when
the gearbox springs were shot. That was probably caused in part by too-low
idle speeds. The engine is on an amphibian, and we routinely need very slow idle
speed when docking. (Standard seaplane practice is to shut off one mag for
even less thrust.) Since then I've kept the rpm up around 2,000 or faster, except
for the few seconds that it's essential to idle slower, and that seems to
have kept the washers from further excessive wear.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279489#279489
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Take the intake off the turbo and see if it turns with your finger it sho
uld
spin real easy, then if it does stay clear and try to start the engine w
ith
it off.. The intake to the turbo that is .....Pull a line off and make su
re
you are getting fuel and no junk on the screen in the tank. Check ignitio
n
system is behaving. Check choke is opening. Check starter is throwing ou
t
That should keep you busy for the first ten mins! Check back with the rig
ht
answer
Chris
-------Original Message-------
From: AmphibFlyer
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start
<SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
lucien wrote:
> Recip engines as you know rely on a flywheel effect in order to run...
Weak springs in the gearbox can decouple the prop from the crankshaft suc
h
that the flywheel effect needed for the engine to run correctly can be
defeated in just the right way at certain, usually very low, rpm's. This
is
caused by the exessive slipping of the dog hub with the sudden reengageme
nt
as the hubs make contact at each side.
Thanks, Lucien! That makes sense, and now I realize that the springs must
be
in there at least partly to damp the lash in the gears at low rpm. These
Rotax engines have a flywheel (and will run smoothly without a prop), so
I
hadn't considered the flywheel effect of the prop, resonance, and gear l
ash
Can't say I like the spring solution, but I guess it works most of the t
ime
What puzzles me is that Rotax apparently hasn't bothered to mention this
condition in the maintenance or operator's manuals. At least, I haven't b
een
able to find any mention of it. Nor indications of the sprag clutch probl
em.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279445#279445
==========
==========
==========
==========
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
I guess at 250 hours you can have gearbox problems. Off the cuff the
first thingI would check is to make sure you have fresh gas, and
clean the carb snot out of carbs. In my experiance with type 64 Bing carbs
on my R100GS, the first thing that snots up is the enrichment jet located
in the float bowl! I also find some snot in the main jets and
other.Best replace gaskets on float bowl, and or any suspect
O-rings. Any air leak on a 914 float bowl or other can negate ability to
maintain between ~2 and ~5 PSI fuel pressure over airbox pressure. My gut
feeling is a gearbox issue would not happen all of a sudden, clogged
enrichmnet jet or lean mixture can happen all of a sudden. Jet could have
been clogged for a while and you didn't notice till temp came down. The
more alcohol in your fuel, the leaner the mixture, if you got a 20%
batch..... BTW I have read a while back that for very cold weather
operations of 91X, you can make enrichment circuit more rich. It was in a
notice I recieved from Rotax, service bulletin, alert or other. Ripped
diaphragm or any other leak that can cause a lean mixture will do you no
good as well. Ron Parigoris
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Rich:
I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct drives.
Why you may ask?
Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
diameter than the gears.
The procedure is this:
1 - Take all safety precautions.
2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing at
it from the front of the engine.
6 - Position and reassemble as required.
Barry
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>
>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS a
>> flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is alive
>> to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP into
>> a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally tear
>> itself apart / explode.
>>
>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED? If
>> it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and vibration.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>> SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>>> no-no.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>
>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop
>>> and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So
>>> maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Attachments:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>
>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>> lder's Bookstore
>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> =============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>
>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Once you reached operating temperature when the engine was running well, did
you notice a lot of clatter when the engine was at idle?
Assuming there is a gearbox problem, there is a very easy way to check it.
You'll need your engine fixation pin to lock the crank, a fishing scale, and
a strap. The test is detailed in the manuals and I believe there's a SB on
it, too.
Adding to the suggestions concerning potential carb issues, have you checked
the carb mounting flanges? There was a bad batch produced that cracked
readily. The HKS uses the same part and mine lasted barely a year. I could
not see the damage until I took them off the engine and looked at them in
bright light, then the cracks were readily visible.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
> I guess at 250 hours you can have gearbox problems. Off the cuff the first
> thing I would check is to make sure you have fresh gas, and clean the carb
> snot out of carbs. In my experiance with type 64 Bing carbs on my R100GS,
> the first thing that snots up is the enrichment jet located in the float
> bowl! I also find some snot in the main jets and other. Best replace gaskets
> on float bowl, and or any suspect O-rings. Any air leak on a 914 float bowl
> or other can negate ability to maintain between ~2 and ~5 PSI fuel pressure
> over airbox pressure. My gut feeling is a gearbox issue would not happen all
> of a sudden, clogged enrichmnet jet or lean mixture can happen all of a
> sudden. Jet could have been clogged for a while and you didn't notice till
> temp came down. The more alcohol in your fuel, the leaner the mixture, if
> you got a 20% batch..... BTW I have read a while back that for very cold
> weather operations of 91X, you can make enrichment circuit more rich. It was
> in a notice I recieved from Rotax, service bulletin, alert or other. Ripped
> diaphragm or any other leak that can cause a lean mixture will do you no
> good as well. Ron Parigoris
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rich:
>
> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
> drives. Why you may ask?
> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
> diameter than the gears.
> The procedure is this:
> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing at
> it from the front of the engine.
> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>
> Barry
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
>> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>
>> Rick Girard
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>
>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS
>>> a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is
>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>
>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED?
>>> If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and
>>> vibration.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>> SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>>>> no-no.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>>>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>>>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>>>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>
>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now.
>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Attachments:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>
>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> =============
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>
>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>
>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>
>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
[quote="Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno"]
Rotax engines have NO flywheel.
> (and will run smoothly without a prop)
> Running a Rotax without a prop is a no-no.
>
They do - the magneto ring doubles as a flywheel on both the 2 and 4 stroke Rotaxen.
And yes the 2 strokes idle perfectly with no load on them and I would assume the
912 does too.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279553#279553
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
AmphibFlyer wrote:
>
> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a no-no.
>
>
> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the other
hand, the 912/914 Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>
> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a prop and
relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now. So maybe
it can be done and maybe it can't.
The hazard would be accidentally overspeeding the engine, probably not that they
simply wouldn't run without a load. To turn a prop at 1800 to 2000 rpm still
takes a little power so removing the load completely could be a problem even
at the normal fully idled setting. Either way, at 20grand a pop, yeah... I think
I'd not try to experiment with that ;)
On the 2-strokes, the throttle slides have to be completely bottomed out in order
to idle with no load (it'll get down to 1800 rpm but that's it).
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279554#279554
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
[quote="AmphibFlyer"]
lucien wrote:
>
> Thanks, Lucien! That makes sense, and now I realize that the springs must be
in there at least partly to damp the lash in the gears at low rpm. These Rotax
engines have a flywheel (and will run smoothly without a prop), so I hadn't
considered the flywheel effect of the prop, resonance, and gear lash. Can't say
I like the spring solution, but I guess it works most of the time.
>
> What puzzles me is that Rotax apparently hasn't bothered to mention this condition
in the maintenance or operator's manuals. At least, I haven't been able
to find any mention of it. Nor indications of the sprag clutch problem.
A regular flywheel is still needed, mostly as a buffer to absorb the variations
in speed of the crank, which would otherwise be very large. With only the prop
via the gearbox as the flywheel, that thing would hammer the gearbox to bits
in nothing flat.......
Rotax probably doesn't describe this as a symptom because it's not always going
to be repeatable. With a different prop that's lighter or maybe even one that's
heavier, the condition may change. a motor with weak springs may start and
run fine in that case.
And if the prop is enormous and heavy enough, the engine may act like that with
perfectly good spring tension (tho it'd have to a huge ginourmous prop most likely
;)).
Instead they describe the torque limits which are better early warning signs to
be checked for anyway. I think you have to be in pretty bad shape before bad
springs cause the symptom your friend's motor is exhibiting.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279556#279556
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
lucien a crit :
>
> They do - the magneto ring doubles as a flywheel on both the 2 and 4 stroke Rotaxen.
>
> And yes the 2 strokes idle perfectly with no load on them and I would assume
the 912 does too.
Lucien,
I'm mystified as to who could have told you such a thing. Are you sure
this person is really a Rotax connaisseur ?
Here is a page with pictures of the little Rotax alternator.
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
How could it's inertia compare with that of the prop ?
Unless one has access to considerable engineering experience with Rotax
engines, it is advisable not to do anything forbidden in the engine manuals.
And better yet, why not just read and follow the book ?
Many many old wife's stories in places where few mechanics really have
Rotax experience.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|