Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (FLYaDIVE)
2. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Richard Girard)
3. 10:30 AM - Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (rampil)
4. 11:11 AM - What happens if you overspeed a 91X? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
5. 11:47 AM - Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? (Bob Comperini)
6. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (FLYaDIVE)
7. 05:19 PM - Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? (rampil)
8. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Graham Singleton)
9. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start (Richard Girard)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Hi Rick:
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion engines. It
is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming engines. When having
a prop balanced it is the first thing checked. I am taking a course on
vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick Helmuth and ACES both cover
balancing this way. This is done to reduce the amount of balance weight
required. Yes, you can balance without doing a static balance but this just
helps. It is like balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of
weight required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
Barry
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
> Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Rich:
>>
>> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
>> drives. Why you may ask?
>> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
>> diameter than the gears.
>> The procedure is this:
>> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
>> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
>> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
>> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
>> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing at
>> it from the front of the engine.
>> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>>
>> Barry
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
>>> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>>
>>> Rick Girard
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>>
>>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop IS
>>>> a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is
>>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>>
>>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED?
>>>> If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and
>>>> vibration.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>>> SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is a
>>>>> no-no.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On the
>>>>> other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in several
>>>>> places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25). It doesn't
>>>>> seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right now.
>>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Attachments:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>>
>>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>
>>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> =============
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>
>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>
>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>
>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>
>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>
>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Barry, Your mistake here is not recognizing that the 912/914 are GEARED
engines. Go to all the trouble to set the prop as you like but the gearing
won't bring it back around to that same point for 1071 complete combustion
cycles, i.e if you set a very high idle of 2142 RPM the prop would return to
your set point once a minute. Lycosaurs are great, but they have so little
to do with a Rotax that experience gained with them is virtually useless.
Rick
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:06 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Rick:
>
> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>
> The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion engines. It
> is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming engines. When having
> a prop balanced it is the first thing checked. I am taking a course on
> vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick Helmuth and ACES both cover
> balancing this way. This is done to reduce the amount of balance weight
> required. Yes, you can balance without doing a static balance but this just
> helps. It is like balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of
> weight required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
> heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
>
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
>>
>> Rick Girard
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Rich:
>>>
>>> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
>>> drives. Why you may ask?
>>> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
>>> diameter than the gears.
>>> The procedure is this:
>>> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
>>> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
>>> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
>>> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
>>> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing
>>> at it from the front of the engine.
>>> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
>>>> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>>>
>>>> Rick Girard
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>>>
>>>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop
>>>>> IS a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and is
>>>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly CLOCKED?
>>>>> If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running and
>>>>> vibration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Barry
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>>>> SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is
>>>>>> a no-no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On
>>>>>> the other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in
>>>>>> several places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25).
It
>>>>>> doesn't seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right
now.
>>>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Attachments:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>>>
>>>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> =============
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>>
>>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>
>>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>
>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>
>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>
>>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>
>>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Without a load on the crankshaft/gearbox, a Rotax 900 has several
problems, but exploding is not one of the them!
what will happen is that above 6000 engine rpm, the speed of the
hydraulic valve lifters is inadequate to completely open and close.
They essentially float out of synch and get bent out of straight by
the cams.
Apparently this situation is worsened by what is unfortunately common
occurrence: In a rush to try their new $20K investment, some builders
too busy to read the manuals try to fire up the engine not only without
the prop load, but also without the throttle cable! From the factory, the
engine is WOT without a cable pulling it back. The engine goes to above
6000 rpm in a heartbeat and no chance for the operator to react before
the engine is damaged.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280060#280060
Message 4
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| Subject: | What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
Hi Ira
I am curious what failure occurs if you overspeed a 91X?
You mentioned:
"what will happen is that above 6000
engine rpm, the speed of thehydraulic valve lifters is inadequate to
completely open and close.They essentially float out of synch and
get bent out of straight by the cams."
I am not sure what
you said, do the hydraulic valve lifters themselves get bent by overspeed?
I always assumed that the mass of valve train has more inertia than can be
held by the valve springs where the valve lifters are in contact with the
cam (valve float)? Then a valve is left opened where it shouldn't be and a
piston contacts the valve andbends the valve, and probably also the
pushrod? Another question, since the 912S has a different cam grind
than the 912 or 914,does overspeed problemsoccur at the same
RPM as 912 or 914?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
On 11:10 AM 1/4/2010, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
>Then a valve is left opened where it shouldn't be and a piston contacts the valve
and bends the valve, and probably also the pushrod?
For what its worth, In the 912 Line maintenance manual (05-50-00, section 3.3),
the inspections exceeding max RPMs are addressed. Yes, Pushrods are on the "list"
of things to inspect.
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
Rich:
OK, you have a student here ... Pull out your books and ruler and start
pounding some information into my head.
Where does the 1071 come from?
How is the math done?
Barry
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
> Barry, Your mistake here is not recognizing that the 912/914 are GEARED
> engines. Go to all the trouble to set the prop as you like but the gearing
> won't bring it back around to that same point for 1071 complete combustion
> cycles, i.e if you set a very high idle of 2142 RPM the prop would return to
> your set point once a minute. Lycosaurs are great, but they have so little
> to do with a Rotax that experience gained with them is virtually useless.
>
> Rick
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:06 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Rick:
>>
>> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>>
>> The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion engines. It
>> is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming engines. When having
>> a prop balanced it is the first thing checked. I am taking a course on
>> vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick Helmuth and ACES both cover
>> balancing this way. This is done to reduce the amount of balance weight
>> required. Yes, you can balance without doing a static balance but this just
>> helps. It is like balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of
>> weight required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
>> heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
>>>
>>> Rick Girard
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rich:
>>>>
>>>> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
>>>> drives. Why you may ask?
>>>> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much larger
>>>> diameter than the gears.
>>>> The procedure is this:
>>>> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
>>>> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
>>>> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
>>>> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
>>>> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing
>>>> at it from the front of the engine.
>>>> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio. How
>>>>> exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Rick Girard
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop
>>>>>> IS a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and
is
>>>>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>>>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>>>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>>>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly
>>>>>> CLOCKED? If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running
>>>>>> and vibration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Barry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>>>>> SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop is
>>>>>>> a no-no.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On
>>>>>>> the other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub" in
>>>>>>> several places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25).
It
>>>>>>> doesn't seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right
now.
>>>>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attachments:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">www.howtocrimp.comiption,
>>>>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>>> =============
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>
>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>
>>>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
>
> =
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What happens if you overspeed a 91X? |
Hi Ron,
It did not occur to me that the cams are different on the different
models.
As for different frequency response of the valve train, sounds like a
factory question. No one else would have an engine closely instrumented
to detect the float and over-sped to destruction. The cams should only
be different in amplitude, not angular change. The float is a
phenomena of frequency response so it should be a function of spring
compliance and push rod inertance. (Hows that for an x engineer)
Happy New Year!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280131#280131
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
It is pointless "clocking" the prop on a Rotax because the prop will
reclock itself continuously as the gearbox steadily alters the relation
between prop and crank.
Graham
On 04/01/2010 16:06, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Hi Rick:
> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>
> The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion
> engines. It is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming
> engines. When having a prop balanced it is the first thing checked.
> I am taking a course on vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick
> Helmuth and ACES both cover balancing this way. This is done to
> reduce the amount of balance weight required. Yes, you can balance
> without doing a static balance but this just helps. It is like
> balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of weight
> required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
> heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
> Barry
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Won't Start |
The crank on the 2.43 ratio gearbox has a 21 tooth gear on the crankshaft
and a 51 tooth on the prop shaft. When the crank turns through on complete
combustion cycle the 51 tooth gear advances only 42 teeth, roughly 60
degrees less than a full revolution.
If you want to look at it in terms of revolutions, for each combustion cycle
the crank gear goes around 2 times and the prop shaft gear goes around
.82353 times.
It was here that Rick went off the rails. The only way I could get back on
track was to do it the bonehead way and make a spreadsheet. It turns out
that when the crank goes through 17 combustion cycles (34 revolutions of the
crank, or 714 teeth) the prop shaft gear has gone around 14 times (714
teeth) at which time the number 1 tooth on booth gears would again be
aligned.
So, sorry for the original miscalculation, the concept was correct but the
math was faulty.
Rick
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 5:19 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rich:
>
> OK, you have a student here ... Pull out your books and ruler and start
> pounding some information into my head.
>
> Where does the 1071 come from?
> How is the math done?
>
> Barry
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Barry, Your mistake here is not recognizing that the 912/914 are GEARED
>> engines. Go to all the trouble to set the prop as you like but the gearing
>> won't bring it back around to that same point for 1071 complete combustion
>> cycles, i.e if you set a very high idle of 2142 RPM the prop would return to
>> your set point once a minute. Lycosaurs are great, but they have so little
>> to do with a Rotax that experience gained with them is virtually useless.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:06 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Rick:
>>>
>>> HAPPY NEW YEAR!
>>>
>>> The procedure is standard for horizontally opposed combustion engines.
>>> It is what is being used for both Continental & Lycomming engines. When
>>> having a prop balanced it is the first thing checked. I am taking a course
>>> on vibration and prop balancing and Chadwick Helmuth and ACES both cover
>>> balancing this way. This is done to reduce the amount of balance weight
>>> required. Yes, you can balance without doing a static balance but this just
>>> helps. It is like balancing tires. Ever see a car with a huge amount of
>>> weight required to balance a tire? More than likely they did not place the
>>> heavy spot of the tire across from the valve stem.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Barry, Where did you get this procedure? It's not in any Rotax manual.
>>>>
>>>> Rick Girard
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rich:
>>>>>
>>>>> I asked the same question. The procedure is the same as for direct
>>>>> drives. Why you may ask?
>>>>> Because the prop has more an effect as the FLYWHEEL having a much
>>>>> larger diameter than the gears.
>>>>> The procedure is this:
>>>>> 1 - Take all safety precautions.
>>>>> 2 - Put the prop on with only a few bolts
>>>>> 3 - Remove the #1 Cyl Spark Plug.
>>>>> 4 - Rotate the prop so #1 piston is TDC on compression stroke.
>>>>> 5 - The prop #1 Blade ... Should be at the 1 O'clock position - LQQKing
>>>>> at it from the front of the engine.
>>>>> 6 - Position and reassemble as required.
>>>>>
>>>>> Barry
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Barry, Rotax engines run a gearbox of either 2.27 or 2.43 ratio.
>>>>>> How exactly are you going to CLOCK it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick Girard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:32 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gilles is right 100%!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should NEVER run an engine without some form of flywheel. A prop
>>>>>>> IS a flywheel. And if your friend ran an engine without a flywheel and
is
>>>>>>> alive to talk about it he is either lucky or a liar.
>>>>>>> An engine run without a flywheel or the proper size flywheel can JUMP
>>>>>>> into a RUNAWAY condition and reach RPM's so high the engine will literally
>>>>>>> tear itself apart / explode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another question to throw into the pot: Is the prop properly
>>>>>>> CLOCKED? If it is not in the correct position you will get rough running
>>>>>>> and vibration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Barry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, AmphibFlyer <
>>>>>>> SeaRey@abstractconcreteworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Rotax engines have NO flywheel... Running a Rotax without a prop
>>>>>>>> is a no-no.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, you're right, mostly. I shouldn't have said that they do. On
>>>>>>>> the other hand, the Heavy Maintenance Manual discusses "flywheel hub"
in
>>>>>>>> several places (July 01/2008, 74-00-00, page 49, page 117, and page 25).
It
>>>>>>>> doesn't seem to show a clear diagram of an actual flywheel, though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also I should confess that I have never tried to run a 914 without a
>>>>>>>> prop and relied on someone else's testimony, which I can't verify right
now.
>>>>>>>> So maybe it can be done and maybe it can't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279458#279458
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Attachments:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scr======
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> he Contribution link below to find out more about
>>>>>>>> lder's Bookstore
>>>>>>>> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2009_12_31_at_23239_pm_205.png>
>>>>>>>> www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com/" target="_blank">
>>>>>>>> www.howtocrimp.com iption,
>>>>>>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">
>>>>>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>>>> =============
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>>> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>>> nk">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>>>> .com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>>>> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>>> ank">www.howtocrimp.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> ========
>> =
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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