Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:28 AM - engine turning backward at shutdown (catz631@aol.com)
2. 07:48 AM - re re re Rtax engines won't start (Fergus Kyle)
3. 09:41 AM - Re: engine turning backward at shutdown (lucien)
4. 02:53 PM - Re: Re:Filter Removal Tool (Carl)
5. 03:13 PM - Re: engine turning backward at shutdown (FLYaDIVE)
6. 03:27 PM - Re: Filter Removal Tool (rampil)
7. 03:36 PM - Re: Need carb help please (Roger Lee)
8. 03:39 PM - Re: engine turning backward at shutdown (Robert Borger)
9. 05:59 PM - Re: engine turning backward at shutdown (Noel Loveys)
10. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: engine turning backward at shutdown (Noel Loveys)
11. 06:55 PM - Re: engine turning backward at shutdown (Noel Loveys)
Message 1
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| Subject: | engine turning backward at shutdown |
Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but
it is here again!
I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold
weather and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant
(CHT) and 190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced the
idle to about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at once.
I forgot to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about 4-5
blades backward. Well, that gave me the RA (red ass) so I tried it again. The
next time it turned backwards at least 4- 5 complete engine revolutions. I
thought I might back into my parking spot! One more shot on the start, oil
pressure looked normal then it shut down normally. Now I already know that I am
the only guy in the country to have this problem but still, it is a bit
perplexing. Other factors :(1) my regular grade fuel is about a month old (2)
the cht was a little warmer on shutdown although well in the green.( 200) The
engine does not do this all the time and usually switching to 93 octane
seems to stop this (which I will do) even though this engine is supposed to
burn regular. In each of the prior cases of this happening (about 4 times),I
have pulled the valve covers and checked the valve clearances to insure no air
in the lifters resulting in possible cam damage. The clearances have all
been normal, no metal in the filter, and no metal in the oil sampling. The
engine has 230 hts tt.
One other thing on a different subject,. the oil filter. I am one of two
guys in the country (according to Lockwood) to have an oil filter almost
unspin itself .This statement is not really true as two other guys on the Team
Kitfox forum have had the same thing happen. One had a destroyed engine
because of it.
During the course of a normal oil change I was trying to get the right
tool to loosen my oil filter. It is a tight fit in there. I was told that they
can be a bear to remove and also told there is no reason to safety wire the
filter.(per my Rotax school) Well ,that's not true! I grabbed the filter
with my hand to put the oil filter remover on and the filter just spun with
little to no pressure! It could have come off or loosened enough in flight to
loose all the oil! On the previous oil change, I had followed the oil change
procedure,including filter torquing, to the letter as I had the SI right in
front of me. I triple checked the torque!
I now safety wire the oil filter with a large clamp around it and also
torque mark it.
I know I have mentioned this before but for new members you might want to
keep a check on yours.
Dick
Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
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| Subject: | re re re Rtax engines won't start |
I just read today's output on The Rotax digest. Doubtless it was of interest
to most of us - perhaps a hundred followers.
Unfortunately it seems to have become a lazy habit to just reply to a whole
history of exchanges instead of applying one previous topic. The result is
today's hundred readers was forced to scroll unnecessarily through 2072 (two
thousand and seventy two) excess lines instead of perhaps twenty.
Imagine the waste of net space, let alone the total time waste. The methods
have been scrupulously explained by Matt in the regularly-distributed rules
of play. Time to review?
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
[quote="Dick Maddux"]Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime
thing but it is here again!
I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold weather
and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant (CHT) and
190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced the idle to about
1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at once. I forgot
to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about 4-5 blades backward.
Well, that gave me the RA (red ass) so I tried it again. The next time it turned
backwards at least 4- 5 complete engine revolutions. I thought I might back
into my parking spot! One more shot on the start, oil pressure looked normal
then it shut down normally. Now I already know that I am the only guy in the
country to have this problem but still, it is a bit perplexing. Other factors
:(1) my regular grade fuel is about a month old (2) the cht was a little warmer
on shutdown although well in the green.( 200) The engine does not do this
all the time and usually switching to 93 octane seems to stop this (which I will
do) even though this engine is supposed to burn regular. In each of the prior
cases of this happening (about 4 times),I have pulled the valve covers and
checked the valve clearances to insure no air in the lifters resulting in possible
cam damage. The clearances have all been normal, no metal in the filter,
and no metal in the oil sampling. The engine has 230 hts tt.
One other thing on a different subject,. the oil filter. I am one of two guys
in the country (according to Lockwood) to have an oil filter almost unspin itself
.This statement is not really true as two other guys on the Team Kitfox forum
have had the same thing happen. One had a destroyed engine because of it.
During the course of a normal oil change I was trying to get the right tool to
loosen my oil filter. It is a tight fit in there. I was told that they can be
a bear to remove and also told there is no reason to safety wire the filter.(per
my Rotax school) Well ,that's not true! I grabbed the filter with my hand
to put the oil filter remover onand the filter just spun with little to no pressure!
It could have come off or loosened enough in flight to loose all the
oil! On the previous oil change, I had followed the oil change procedure,including
filter torquing, to the letter as I had the SI right in front of me. I triple
checked the torque!
I now safety wire the oil filter with a large clamp around it and also torque
mark it.
I know I have mentioned this before but for new members you might want to keep
a check on yours.
Dick Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
> [b]
Sounds like cheap gas to me. Just because it says Bill & Ted's Excellent gas on
the pump doesn't mean it's good. I got a tank of some cheap stuff a while back
(still a 91 octane premium gas) and I got the occasional dieseling on shutdown
too (912ULS). I drained the tank and tried some gas from a different station
with no problems.
Try a different station and/or brand of regular gas and see what happens there.
The fact that higher octane gas fixes the problem would seem to be the smoking
gun.
On the oil filter, Rotax says to go 3/4 of a turn down after the gasket makes contact
with the face of the pump. That has never been tight enough with any filter
I've ever used including the Rotax filter. Every time there's a substantial
leak after the initial run up (again even with the Rotax filter).
Now I go at least a full turn and no more than 1 1/4 turns and never see leaks.
Getting the old filter off is a struggle no way around it. The regular wrench that
fits onto the end of the filter isn't enough (it just strips) even when I
was tightening it down only 3/4 turn.
I have to use the pliars-style wrench from Pep-boys that destroys the filter to
get it loose (with strong support underneath the filter with the other hand to
prevent strong downward bending pressure on the oil pump).....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281181#281181
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re:Filter Removal Tool |
List
I've collected a half dozen filter tools during the years but for the last
ten years I always reach for one that is made of a short piece of square
tubing attached to a loop of nylon strapping. The square tube fits perfectly
over a 1/2" ratchet and can be used with an extension. I use it to install
and remove filters on the plane and cars, and if careful, without damage. I
always witness mark and date the filter with a permanent marker.
I'm pretty sure I bought it at Princess Auto or Canadian Tire.
Carl
R912ul
> During the course of a normal oil change I was trying to get the right
> tool to loosen my oil filter. It is a tight fit in there. I was told that
> they can be a bear to remove and also told there is no reason to safety
> wire the filter.(> I now safety wire the oil filter with a large clamp
> around it and also torque mark it.
> I know I have mentioned this before but for new members you might want to
> keep a check on yours.
>
> Now I go at least a full turn and no more than 1 1/4 turns and never see
> leaks.
>
> Getting the old filter off is a struggle no way around it. The regular
> wrench that fits onto the end of the filter isn't enough (it just strips)
> even when I was tightening it down only 3/4 turn.
>
> I have to use the pliars-style wrench from Pep-boys that destroys the
> filter to get it loose (with strong support underneath the filter with the
> other hand to prevent strong downward bending pressure on the oil
> pump).....
>
> LS
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
Dick:
I am new to ROTAX engines but the standard way of shutting down Lycoming and
Continental engines is to Pull The Mixture, not shut off the Mags. As long
as there is Heat, Fuel Air and something close to timing the mixture getting
into the cylinder will ignite. If there is not proper timing (see above) it
could ignite as it is coming up to the compression and Kick Back, as in your
case.
So, my questions to the group are:
1 - Is just shutting off the Mags the normal way of shutting down a ROTAX?
2 - Is 1400 RPM the normal shut down RPM?
Barry
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, <catz631@aol.com> wrote:
> Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but
> it is here again!
> I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold
> weather and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant
> (CHT) and 190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced
> the idle to about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at
> once. I forgot to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about
> 4-5 blades backward.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Filter Removal Tool |
The filter should not be so difficult to unscrew, as the Rotax
manual specifies that it should be turned only a partial turn past
finger tight.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281213#281213
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Need carb help please |
You guys may want to double check the numbers n those needles and main jets. If
you mistakenly put one in for an 80 hp for 100 hp or the other way around it
won't run right. Make sure the kit that is sent you is the right one for the correct
HP. (80 or 100) You can't tell just by looking at a distance you need to
look at the numbers stamped on the sides of the part.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281214#281214
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
Barry,
There is no mixture control on a standard Rotax engine installation. The shutdown
method recommended in the book is to set the throttle to idle and turn off
the ignition switches. The Rotax doesn't really have "mags" as it has a CDI
(Capacitive Discharge Ignition). Though most folks still call them "mag" switches
from long habit with aircraft engines.
Ignition timing is controlled by a set of powerful magnets fixed on the flywheel
as they pass induction pickups fixed on the engine case. It's all fixed and
can not be altered.
1400 RPM is slower than the recommended 1800 RPM idle. If you idle very much below
1800 RPM you will beat the reduction gears to death in short order.
Dick,
Sounds like a bad batch of gasoline to me, well below the recommended 91 octane,
that is igniting under compression in a hot engine. Your experience with higher
octane making the dieseling go away sure seems to point to it anyway. I'm
surprised there are no problems with engine knock/ping.
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Aircraft Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Jan 12, 2010, at 17:12, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Dick:
>
> I am new to ROTAX engines but the standard way of shutting down Lycoming and
Continental engines is to Pull The Mixture, not shut off the Mags. As long as
there is Heat, Fuel Air and something close to timing the mixture getting into
the cylinder will ignite. If there is not proper timing (see above) it could
ignite as it is coming up to the compression and Kick Back, as in your case.
>
> So, my questions to the group are:
> 1 - Is just shutting off the Mags the normal way of shutting down a ROTAX?
> 2 - Is 1400 RPM the normal shut down RPM?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, <catz631@aol.com> wrote:
> Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but it
is here again!
> I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold weather
and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant (CHT) and
190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced the idle to
about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at once. I forgot
to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about 4-5 blades backward.
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | engine turning backward at shutdown |
You may have a slightly rich condition which allows for detonation on
stopping causing the engine to run backward. I've seen it in some cars and
increasing the octane has always cured it.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
catz631@aol.com
Sent: January 12, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: engine turning backward at shutdown
Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but it
is here again!
I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold
weather and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant
(CHT) and 190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced
the idle to about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at
once. I forgot to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about
4-5 blades backward. Well, that gave me the RA (red ass) so I tried it
again. The next time it turned backwards at least 4- 5 complete engine
revolutions. I thought I might back into my parking spot! One more shot on
the start, oil pressure looked normal then it shut down normally. Now I
already know that I am the only guy in the country to have this problem but
still, it is a bit perplexing. Other factors :(1) my regular grade fuel is
about a month old (2) the cht was a little warmer on shutdown although well
in the green.( 200) The engine does not do this all the time and usually
switching to 93 octane seems to stop this (which I will do) even though this
engine is supposed to burn regular. In each of the prior cases of this
happening (about 4 times),I have pulled the valve covers and checked the
valve clearances to insure no air in the lifters resulting in possible cam
damage. The clearances have all been normal, no metal in the filter, and no
metal in the oil sampling. The engine has 230 hts tt.
One other thing on a different subject,. the oil filter. I am one of two
guys in the country (according to Lockwood) to have an oil filter almost
unspin itself .This statement is not really true as two other guys on the
Team Kitfox forum have had the same thing happen. One had a destroyed engine
because of it.
During the course of a normal oil change I was trying to get the right tool
to loosen my oil filter. It is a tight fit in there. I was told that they
can be a bear to remove and also told there is no reason to safety wire the
filter.(per my Rotax school) Well ,that's not true! I grabbed the filter
with my hand to put the oil filter remover on and the filter just spun with
little to no pressure! It could have come off or loosened enough in flight
to loose all the oil! On the previous oil change, I had followed the oil
change procedure,including filter torquing, to the letter as I had the SI
right in front of me. I triple checked the torque!
I now safety wire the oil filter with a large clamp around it and also
torque mark it.
I know I have mentioned this before but for new members you might want to
keep a check on yours.
Dick
Maddux
912 UL
Milton,Fl
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: engine turning backward at shutdown |
I had a similar experience with gasoline in my Subaru (car). I bought gas
at really low prices at a reserve in Nova Scotia. To say the car didn't
like it would be an understatement. It burped and backfired chugged and did
the whole gambit before I was able to get some "Brand Name" gas into the
tank. That doesn't sound too bad until you take into consideration the EFI
is supposed to comphensate for all that kind of thing. Your 912 without the
EFI and associated paraphernalia wouldn't stand a chance with cheap or low
octane fuel.
Noel
Sounds like cheap gas to me. Just because it says Bill & Ted's Excellent gas
on the pump doesn't mean it's good. I got a tank of some cheap stuff a while
back (still a 91 octane premium gas) and I got the occasional dieseling on
shutdown too (912ULS). I drained the tank and tried some gas from a
different station with no problems.
Try a different station and/or brand of regular gas and see what happens
there. The fact that higher octane gas fixes the problem would seem to be
the smoking gun.
On the oil filter, Rotax says to go 3/4 of a turn down after the gasket
makes contact with the face of the pump. That has never been tight enough
with any filter I've ever used including the Rotax filter. Every time
there's a substantial leak after the initial run up (again even with the
Rotax filter).
Now I go at least a full turn and no more than 1 1/4 turns and never see
leaks.
Getting the old filter off is a struggle no way around it. The regular
wrench that fits onto the end of the filter isn't enough (it just strips)
even when I was tightening it down only 3/4 turn.
I have to use the pliars-style wrench from Pep-boys that destroys the filter
to get it loose (with strong support underneath the filter with the other
hand to prevent strong downward bending pressure on the oil pump).....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281181#281181
Message 11
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| Subject: | engine turning backward at shutdown |
Yes, because there is no mixture control on the bing carbs... BTW some
early Cubs had their mixture controls wired in place under the cowl so again
they had to be stopped by shutting down the mags.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 12, 2010 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: engine turning backward at shutdown
Dick:
I am new to ROTAX engines but the standard way of shutting down Lycoming and
Continental engines is to Pull The Mixture, not shut off the Mags. As long
as there is Heat, Fuel Air and something close to timing the mixture getting
into the cylinder will ignite. If there is not proper timing (see above) it
could ignite as it is coming up to the compression and Kick Back, as in your
case.
So, my questions to the group are:
1 - Is just shutting off the Mags the normal way of shutting down a ROTAX?
2 - Is 1400 RPM the normal shut down RPM?
Barry
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, <catz631@aol.com> wrote:
Well, my old nemesis is back. I had thought it was a summertime thing but it
is here again!
I flew for about an hour yesterday. I had the radiator taped for the cold
weather and the temp was running at about 200-210 degrees on the coolant
(CHT) and 190 on the oil temp during cruise. At engine shutdown I reduced
the idle to about 1400 rpm and turned off the key,shuting down both mags at
once. I forgot to do one at a time. The engine shut down then turned about
4-5 blades backward.
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