Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:56 AM - Re: Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above ()
2. 01:58 AM - No Burp (John Fasching)
3. 03:57 AM - Re: Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?=)
4. 05:00 AM - Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above (Thom Riddle)
5. 05:50 AM - Re: No Burp (lucien)
6. 06:04 AM - Re: No Burp (Richard Girard)
7. 07:04 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/06/10 (Stan Tew)
8. 09:18 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/06/10 (rampil)
9. 09:32 AM - No Burp (R Holder)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above |
When you stopped the engine to check the plugs did you also check the
fuel in the carb bowls. The fuel pump { or filter }may not be delivering
sufficent fuel to keep it running at high RPM settings. Have you check
the exhaust has not become obstructed while the engine was not being
used , that problem can also become apparent at high RPM . Just some
more things to check.
Downunder
MK111c
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and
above
Have you checked all the pieces of the equalizer line between the two
intake manifolds? Try checking the vacuum readings at the equalizer and
then at the carb taps with the equalizer line connected to see if
there's any gross difference.
As long as you had the carbs off, did you pull the carb sockets and
check them? I know you said they are recently replaced, but they're easy
to check and it eliminates one more possible source of a leak. There was
a bad batch a few years back that rotted out within a year. I couldn't
see the cracks in mine until I got them off and used a strong light,
then the cracks were obvious.
What about the o-rings at the socket and those on the intake
manifolds?
Have you checked the diaphragms in the carb domes? You've had them out
to raise the needle did you make sure the tab on the diaphragm is set in
the slot in the carburetor body?
Also, from the IPC, there are no o-ring seals on the throttle shafts?
Have you miked them to see if the carb body is corroded or rotted out
the throttle shaft bore?
Personally, I wouldn't start messing with jetting until you've
exhausted every possibility of a gross air leak.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:57 PM, MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com>
wrote:
<dougsnash@yahoo.com>
The saga continues...
Tonight I pulled the carbs right off of the plane. I pulled them
apart and this time got the float needles right out. There was a small
chunk of silicone beside the needle in one of the carbs but after
removing it and running the engine, there was little improvment if any.
I was able to get it up to 4200 with the enrichener on but only the same
old 3400 with the enrichener off.
Other things I have tried is raising the needle one notch to full
rich. This also made little to no difference. I stopped the engine
while it was misfiring at 3400 RPM and pulled a couple of plugs. They
were sooty white so I think we can say that this issue is definately a
lean misfire.
I read someplace in the parts manual that there are slightly larger
main jets available when you run an air box. Since I have the original
cone filters, I removed the airbox and ran it with them (also on the
richest needle setting) and again the engine stumbles at about 3400 RPM.
One thought I had tonight after all of this playing around is; is it
possible that the throttle shaft o-rings could leak enough to cause this
issue? I don't know that they are leaking but given that the carbs are
over ten years old, it is possible.
While I had the carbs apart I re-checked all of the other passages
and found no buildup in any of them. Getting frustrating but this
wouldn't be any fun if it was easy.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
912 UL
NW Ontario, Canada
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Message 2
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I lost my prop in a stall accident...not a lot of damage, but the prop
is gone. I am still waiting for the FAA to look at things before
starting repairs (the engine will be pulled to repair some firewall
damage and the gear box sent out for a good checking) - I was going to
drain fluids in the 912ULS but for no real reason pulled the stub of
what's left of the prop to 'burp' the engine..it didn't burp. I had just
purged the engine before the accident and there was 3 liters of oil
added. There was no oil leak whatever due to the accident. I can see
25psi oil pressure after pulling the engine over perhaps 10 times or so
and I know the pistons are going up and down, but no burp, and I only
could get about 1 liter of oil from the reservoir. This concerns me and
I am uncertain why I cannot 'burp' the engine....your take?
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above |
Hello Doug.
My friend has a similar problem with his Kitfox and a few days ago he
noticed that the primer line was broken and was sucking air. It was
not the only cause for his rough running engine problem, but I think a
few small air leaks can have a bad effect at hight rpm.
He had checked the primer pump and the lines but could not find any
problems, until he took the line off the carb, he saw the broken line
by the clamp on the carb.
I hope this helps in finding the cause of your rough running engine.
Johann G.
CH-701
912 UL
Iceland.
On 7.7.2010, at 01:57, MacDonald Doug wrote:
> >
>
> The saga continues...
>
> Tonight I pulled the carbs right off of the plane. I pulled them
> apart and this time got the float needles right out. There was a
> small chunk of silicone beside the needle in one of the carbs but
> after removing it and running the engine, there was little
> improvment if any. I was able to get it up to 4200 with the
> enrichener on but only the same old 3400 with the enrichener off.
>
> Other things I have tried is raising the needle one notch to full
> rich. This also made little to no difference. I stopped the engine
> while it was misfiring at 3400 RPM and pulled a couple of plugs.
> They were sooty white so I think we can say that this issue is
> definately a lean misfire.
>
> I read someplace in the parts manual that there are slightly larger
> main jets available when you run an air box. Since I have the
> original cone filters, I removed the airbox and ran it with them
> (also on the richest needle setting) and again the engine stumbles
> at about 3400 RPM.
>
> One thought I had tonight after all of this playing around is; is it
> possible that the throttle shaft o-rings could leak enough to cause
> this issue? I don't know that they are leaking but given that the
> carbs are over ten years old, it is possible.
>
> While I had the carbs apart I re-checked all of the other passages
> and found no buildup in any of them. Getting frustrating but this
> wouldn't be any fun if it was easy.
>
> Doug MacDonald
> CH-701 Scratch Builder
> 912 UL
> NW Ontario, Canada
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above |
Doug,
I suggest you go to http://www.bingcarburetor.com/manual.html
and buy their manual for US$11. With this you should be able to do a complete inspection
and cleaning. A ten year old carburetor is likely to need new seals/o-rings.
This is also an opportunity to make sure that the correct jets are in
place. I've done many Bing 64 and Bing 94 carb cleaning and inspections and it
is not uncommon to find carbs with the wrong jets installed and bad seals, especially
on older ones.
If you don't feel comfortable doing the complete inspection and cleaning let me
know. I do them for $50/carb plus parts and only replace parts that actually
need replacing. I'm not trying to sell you a service because I feel that anyone
who can build an airplane can do this work themselves with the proper documentation.
But some are not comfortable going deep into their carburetors so I offer
this service.
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/riddletr/a&pmechanix
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
If life gives you limes, make Margaritas.
- Jimmy Buffet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304011#304011
Message 5
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[quote="JohnF"]I lost my prop in a stall accident...not a lot of damage, but the
prop is gone. I am still waiting for the FAA to look at things before starting
repairs (the engine will be pulled to repair some firewall damage and the
gear box sent out for a good checking) - I was going to drain fluids in the
912ULS but for no real reason pulled the stub of what's left of the prop to
'burp' the engine..it didn't burp. I had just purged the engine before the accident
and there was 3 liters of oil added. There was no oil leak whatever due
to the accident. I can see 25psi oil pressure after pulling the engine over
perhaps 10 times or so and I know the pistons are going up and down, but no
burp, and I only could get about 1 liter of oil from the reservoir. This concerns
me and I am uncertain why I cannot 'burp' the engine....your take?
> [b]
Yeah that's bad ;).
IMHO, tho, I personally wouldn't turn the motor over anymore until you've been
able to determine there isn't any other damage inside the motor itself. I.e. measured
the runout on the crank, checked for cracks etc. If there is damage there,
turning it over even by hand could possibly make it worse by grinding damaged
parts together and so on.
Don't ask me why I suggest this.
So I'd do that first, and then once you've determined it's safe to turn it over,
troubleshoot the oil return. It could be a leak in the crankcase or a blockage
of some kind in the oil return....
My .02,
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304016#304016
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John, Once the oil level is a liter or so down the engine will not burp. I
learned this the hard way while showing a customer how to burp the engine
before I did the oil change. It was down a liter and I couldn't get a burp
to save my life. After the change I pulled the engine through and with the
oil up to full it burped just fine. I amended my demonstration to include
checking the oil level first. :-}
Rick Girard
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:58 AM, John Fasching <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us> wrote:
> I lost my prop in a stall accident...not a lot of damage, but the prop is
> gone. I am still waiting for the FAA to look at things before starting
> repairs (the engine will be pulled to repair some firewall damage and the
> gear box sent out for a good checking) - I was going to drain fluids in the
> 912ULS but for no real reason pulled the stub of what's left of the prop to
> 'burp' the engine..it didn't burp. I had just purged the engine before the
> accident and there was 3 liters of oil added. There was no oil leak whatever
> due to the accident. I can see 25psi oil pressure after pulling the engine
> over perhaps 10 times or so and I know the pistons are going up and down,
> but no burp, and I only could get about 1 liter of oil from the reservoir.
> This concerns me and I am uncertain why I cannot 'burp' the engine....your
> take?
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/06/10 |
A fellow pilot at my home airport has found that his electronic ignition modules
fail intermittently. I know - everyone says they either work or they don't. BUT
he sent his engine to his Rotax Service Center and it was confirmed that they
were failing intermittently. They were replaced and now he is flying.
This is just to say that you should NOT rule out an ignition problem.
STAN 2
Building N29TD
________________________________
From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 1:58:27 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/06/10
*
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Total Messages Posted Tue 07/06/10: 4
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:59 AM - Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above (rampil)
2. 02:03 PM - Re: 914 Fuel Pump (h&jeuropa)
3. 06:57 PM - Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above (MacDonald Doug)
4. 08:03 PM - Re: Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above (Richard Girard)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 10:59:32 AM PST US
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com>
Check to make sure there is not soot on the float bowls, a loose exhaust joint
could boil the gas on one side when the engine power is set high enough
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303919#303919
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 02:03:38 PM PST US
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 914 Fuel Pump
From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43@att.net>
Hugh,
I just called them and asked for a pump for a 914. I had the Rotax part number
from the parts catalog. They said sure, just send money!!
Jim
Do not archieve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303961#303961
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 06:57:57 PM PST US
From: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above
The saga continues...
Tonight I pulled the carbs right off of the plane. I pulled them apart and this
time got the float needles right out. There was a small chunk of silicone
beside
the needle in one of the carbs but after removing it and running the engine,
there was little improvment if any. I was able to get it up to 4200 with
the enrichener on but only the same old 3400 with the enrichener off.
Other things I have tried is raising the needle one notch to full rich. This
also
made little to no difference. I stopped the engine while it was misfiring
at 3400 RPM and pulled a couple of plugs. They were sooty white so I think we
can say that this issue is definately a lean misfire.
I read someplace in the parts manual that there are slightly larger main jets
available
when you run an air box. Since I have the original cone filters, I removed
the airbox and ran it with them (also on the richest needle setting) and
again the engine stumbles at about 3400 RPM.
One thought I had tonight after all of this playing around is; is it possible
that
the throttle shaft o-rings could leak enough to cause this issue? I don't
know that they are leaking but given that the carbs are over ten years old, it
is possible.
While I had the carbs apart I re-checked all of the other passages and found no
buildup in any of them. Getting frustrating but this wouldn't be any fun if
it was easy.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
912 UL
NW Ontario, Canada
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 08:03:02 PM PST US
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: rough running at 3400 RPM and above
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Have you checked all the pieces of the equalizer line between the two intake
manifolds? Try checking the vacuum readings at the equalizer and then at the
carb taps with the equalizer line connected to see if there's any gross
difference.
As long as you had the carbs off, did you pull the carb sockets and check
them? I know you said they are recently replaced, but they're easy to check
and it eliminates one more possible source of a leak. There was a bad batch
a few years back that rotted out within a year. I couldn't see the cracks in
mine until I got them off and used a strong light, then the cracks were
obvious.
What about the o-rings at the socket and those on the intake manifolds?
Have you checked the diaphragms in the carb domes? You've had them out to
raise the needle did you make sure the tab on the diaphragm is set in the
slot in the carburetor body?
Also, from the IPC, there are no o-ring seals on the throttle shafts? Have
you miked them to see if the carb body is corroded or rotted out the
throttle shaft bore?
Personally, I wouldn't start messing with jetting until you've exhausted
every possibility of a gross air leak.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:57 PM, MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com> wrote:
> dougsnash@yahoo.com>
>
> The saga continues...
>
> Tonight I pulled the carbs right off of the plane. I pulled them apart and
> this time got the float needles right out. There was a small chunk of
> silicone beside the needle in one of the carbs but after removing it and
> running the engine, there was little improvment if any. I was able to get
> it up to 4200 with the enrichener on but only the same old 3400 with the
> enrichener off.
>
> Other things I have tried is raising the needle one notch to full rich.
> This also made little to no difference. I stopped the engine while it was
> misfiring at 3400 RPM and pulled a couple of plugs. They were sooty white
> so I think we can say that this issue is definately a lean misfire.
>
> I read someplace in the parts manual that there are slightly larger main
> jets available when you run an air box. Since I have the original cone
> filters, I removed the airbox and ran it with them (also on the richest
> needle setting) and again the engine stumbles at about 3400 RPM.
>
> One thought I had tonight after all of this playing around is; is it
> possible that the throttle shaft o-rings could leak enough to cause this
> issue? I don't know that they are leaking but given that the carbs are over
> ten years old, it is possible.
>
> While I had the carbs apart I re-checked all of the other passages and
> found no buildup in any of them. Getting frustrating but this wouldn't be
> any fun if it was easy.
>
> Doug MacDonald
> CH-701 Scratch Builder
> 912 UL
> NW Ontario, Canada
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/06/10 |
Stan:
Thanks for raising the point about the ignition modules.
Please learn to use the mailing list system properly:
Do make a Subject Line (NOT RotaxEngines-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/06/10)
Do Not Copy a whole Digest into your message.
In fact, do not copy any prior message at all if possible.
Thanks,
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304045#304045
Message 9
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John Fasching wrote:
> I lost my prop in a stall accident...not a lot of damage, but the prop
> is gone. I am still waiting for the FAA to look at things before
> starting repairs (the engine will be pulled to repair some firewall
> damage and the gear box sent out for a good checking) - I was going to
> drain fluids in the 912ULS but for no real reason pulled the stub of
> what's left of the prop to 'burp' the engine..it didn't burp. I had just
> purged the engine before the accident and there was 3 liters of oil
> added. There was no oil leak whatever due to the accident. I can see
> 25psi oil pressure after pulling the engine over perhaps 10 times or so
> and I know the pistons are going up and down, but no burp, and I only
> could get about 1 liter of oil from the reservoir. This concerns me and
> I am uncertain why I cannot 'burp' the engine....your take?
If you have removed the gearbox the crankcase is now not
sealed and so there won't be any pressure available to
return oil to the oil tank !
Or ditto if you have removed a few plugs !
Or maybe I have the wrong end of the stick.
RH
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