Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil (FLYaDIVE)
2. 02:10 PM - Fuel Pressure on a 914 (pestar)
3. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil (Noel Loveys)
4. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil (FLYaDIVE)
5. 06:15 PM - Re: Fuel Pressure on a 914 (Ken Ryan)
6. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil (Rob Housman)
7. 06:28 PM - Re: Fuel Pressure on a 914 (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil |
Noel:
There is No More Mineral Oil. There hasn't been for many a year.
The oils of the day are consider Natural oils, AD & Non-AD oils.
Now here is a CORROSION story for you:
Long story short... A friend was called to a site of a plane accident.
The FAA wanted the engine to towarn down.
The engine had all four cylinders removed.
The FAA & Insurance company said STOP WORK.
The engine sat OPEN with all four cylinders removed for slightly over a
YEAR.
The engine ran on AD Oil of both the Natural and Synthetic BLEND.
Guess what! Over a Year - NO CORROSION on an OPEN ENGINE.
Engine was sitting on a pallet on the hanger floor.
Nothing else was done to the engine.
SOooooo I do not put too much stock into how quick corrosion can start.
AND - I keep saying this - SYNTHETIC BLENDS (50/50).
Barry
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> Synthetic oils are super slippery and from what I've read they just don't
> do
> the job of protecting metal parts if left for a period of time. Mineral
> oils are much more protective. So if a plane is being flown almost every
> day no doubt about it synthetic is the way to go. If though you only fly
> say once a month then mineral will be better. Either way with two stroke
> engines use low ash oils and with the 912 series use a good quality
> motorcycle oil.
>
> You are right about mineral oil becoming acidic and for some reason
> mechanics say that it's better in the differential of the car to have older
> seasoned oil in it. The manual on my father's old '64 Jeep said to change
> the oil every 20K miles... I think. That is the reason why I change my oil
> as soon as the car comes out of storage for the winter.
>
> As for which oil is best... That's like asking whose wife is best.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
> Lee
> Sent: July 11, 2010 11:11 AM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil
>
>
> Howdy Noel,
>
> Why would your prefer the mineral oil for infrequent type flying over
> synthetic? I'm trying to pull out of memory about mineral oil after months
> of just sitting is more likely to become more acidic than a synthetic. I
> can't remember the direct info though.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304459#304459
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Fuel Pressure on a 914 |
Background
Building a MCR-4S (dynaero.com) with a 914 fitted with an intercooler. Have MGL
instrumentation with fuel flow monitoring. Had thought about monitoring fuel
pressure which leads to the following questions.
1. Does anyone monitor fuel pressure on their 914 and what value do they get out
of it.
2. If you have done it where did you mount the sender as my first impression of
doing this looks as so you have to hack into the Rotax pipework which I would
prefer not if it can be avoided.
3. What value sender did you use and what type.
Appreciate your comments.
Peter Armstrong
Auckland, New Zealand
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304701#304701
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil |
Just try that trick with a nitride crankshaft...You will find that they can
degrade in hours not days or weeks.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: July 13, 2010 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil
Noel:
There is No More Mineral Oil. There hasn't been for many a year.
The oils of the day are consider Natural oils, AD & Non-AD oils.
Now here is a CORROSION story for you:
Long story short... A friend was called to a site of a plane accident.
The FAA wanted the engine to towarn down.
The engine had all four cylinders removed.
The FAA & Insurance company said STOP WORK.
The engine sat OPEN with all four cylinders removed for slightly over a
YEAR.
The engine ran on AD Oil of both the Natural and Synthetic BLEND.
Guess what! Over a Year - NO CORROSION on an OPEN ENGINE.
Engine was sitting on a pallet on the hanger floor.
Nothing else was done to the engine.
SOooooo I do not put too much stock into how quick corrosion can start.
AND - I keep saying this - SYNTHETIC BLENDS (50/50).
Barry
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Synthetic oils are super slippery and from what I've read they just don't do
the job of protecting metal parts if left for a period of time. Mineral
oils are much more protective. So if a plane is being flown almost every
day no doubt about it synthetic is the way to go. If though you only fly
say once a month then mineral will be better. Either way with two stroke
engines use low ash oils and with the 912 series use a good quality
motorcycle oil.
You are right about mineral oil becoming acidic and for some reason
mechanics say that it's better in the differential of the car to have older
seasoned oil in it. The manual on my father's old '64 Jeep said to change
the oil every 20K miles... I think. That is the reason why I change my oil
as soon as the car comes out of storage for the winter.
As for which oil is best... That's like asking whose wife is best.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: July 11, 2010 11:11 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil
Howdy Noel,
Why would your prefer the mineral oil for infrequent type flying over
synthetic? I'm trying to pull out of memory about mineral oil after months
of just sitting is more likely to become more acidic than a synthetic. I
can't remember the direct info though.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304459#304=====
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304459#304459>
and much much more:
or?RotaxEngines-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil |
Noel:
Flame Hardening beats Nitriting - But ONLY in hardness depth.
When it comes to STEEL they are BOTH the SAME.
Corrosion attacks steel (Ferrous material) it does NOT care if it is Flame
Hardened or Nitrated. The hardness is the same - What is difference is the
depth of the hardness. Nitrating is less.
When it comes to a crankshaft most are nitrated due to the depth, uniformity
and lack of stress points. Crankshaft do not fail because of corrosion - It
is VERY difficult to get corrosion between the journals and babbets. A very
thing layer of oil is more than enough to keep out oxygen - Oxygen is
required to start and keep corrosion happening.
Crankshafts fail due to abrasion (particles in the oil) and heat. Heat can
cause a babbet to loosen and rotate and block off the oil galley. NOW you
have a problem! The chance of rust getting in there... You stand a better
chance of getting pregnant from a toilet seat :-)
Well, maybe not those good an odds.
As a rule of thumb: The harder the material the slower the corrosion
process.
D2 tool steel for example is much harder and denser than say 4140 - - D2
without any protection will out last 4140.
Pull out the Chem Phys on steels and read the breakdown.
OK - Enough of Metallurgy 101.
Time for dinner.
Barry
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Just try that trick with a nitride crankshaft...You will find that they
> can degrade in hours not days or weeks.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* July 13, 2010 9:50 AM
>
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil
>
>
> Noel:
>
>
> There is No More Mineral Oil. There hasn't been for many a year.
>
> The oils of the day are consider Natural oils, AD & Non-AD oils.
>
>
> Now here is a CORROSION story for you:
>
> Long story short... A friend was called to a site of a plane accident.
>
> The FAA wanted the engine to towarn down.
>
> The engine had all four cylinders removed.
>
> The FAA & Insurance company said STOP WORK.
>
> The engine sat OPEN with all four cylinders removed for slightly over a
> YEAR.
>
> The engine ran on AD Oil of both the Natural and Synthetic BLEND.
>
> Guess what! Over a Year - NO CORROSION on an OPEN ENGINE.
>
> Engine was sitting on a pallet on the hanger floor.
>
> Nothing else was done to the engine.
>
>
> SOooooo I do not put too much stock into how quick corrosion can start.
>
>
> AND - I keep saying this - SYNTHETIC BLENDS (50/50).
>
>
> Barry
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> Synthetic oils are super slippery and from what I've read they just don't
> do
> the job of protecting metal parts if left for a period of time. Mineral
> oils are much more protective. So if a plane is being flown almost every
> day no doubt about it synthetic is the way to go. If though you only fly
> say once a month then mineral will be better. Either way with two stroke
> engines use low ash oils and with the 912 series use a good quality
> motorcycle oil.
>
> You are right about mineral oil becoming acidic and for some reason
> mechanics say that it's better in the differential of the car to have older
> seasoned oil in it. The manual on my father's old '64 Jeep said to change
> the oil every 20K miles... I think. That is the reason why I change my oil
> as soon as the car comes out of storage for the winter.
>
> As for which oil is best... That's like asking whose wife is best.
>
> Noel
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
> Lee
> Sent: July 11, 2010 11:11 AM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil
>
>
> Howdy Noel,
>
> Why would your prefer the mineral oil for infrequent type flying over
> synthetic? I'm trying to pull out of memory about mineral oil after months
> of just sitting is more likely to become more acidic than a synthetic. I
> can't remember the direct info though.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304459#304=====
> and much much more:
> or?RotaxEngines-List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304459#304459>
>
> ="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">
> http://forums.matronics.com
> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ====
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
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> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure on a 914 |
>From *Understanding the Rotax 914* document located here:
http://www.rotax-owner.com/pdf/UNDERSTANDING%20THE%20914%20ROTAX.pdf
Indicates fuel pressure is best monitored in relation to airbox pressure:
Maximum fuel pressure is 0.35 BAR (5.08 PSI or 10.36=94) above airbox press
ure
Minimum fuel pressure is 0.15 BAR (2.18 PSI or 4.45=94) above airbox pressu
re
Normal fuel pressure is 0.25 BAR (3.63 PSI or 7.41=94) above airbox pressur
e
Gauge for monitoring this way can be found here:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/umadiff1.php
Ken Ryan
Anchorage, Alaska
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:09 PM, pestar <peter@reivernet.com> wrote:
>
> Background
>
> Building a MCR-4S (dynaero.com) with a 914 fitted with an intercooler.
> Have MGL instrumentation with fuel flow monitoring. Had thought about
> monitoring fuel pressure which leads to the following questions.
>
> 1. Does anyone monitor fuel pressure on their 914 and what value do they
> get out of it.
>
> 2. If you have done it where did you mount the sender as my first
> impression of doing this looks as so you have to hack into the Rotax
> pipework which I would prefer not if it can be avoided.
>
> 3. What value sender did you use and what type.
>
> Appreciate your comments.
>
> Peter Armstrong
> Auckland, New Zealand
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304701#304701
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil |
Just to set the record straight..
The density of D2 is 0.278 lb/cu ft and 4140 is 0.283 lb/cu ft which is not
exactly "much. denser" and the real reason for D2 having superior corrosion
resistance is the minor matter of its 12% Cr vs. 1% Cr in 4140. For
comparison 416 and 420 SS have 12 to 14%. D2 is not classified as a
stainless steel however.
Hardness in steels is a function of C content and thermal treatments, while
corrosion resistance is a function of Cr and Ni content, so it is not quite
correct to correlate hardness and corrosion resistance.
Although you seem to have forgotten some of what was taught in Metallurgy
101 at least you got the conclusion right - cranks (at least those with the
right chemistry and heat treat) generally fail from abrasion.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil
Noel:
Flame Hardening beats Nitriting - But ONLY in hardness depth.
When it comes to STEEL they are BOTH the SAME.
Corrosion attacks steel (Ferrous material) it does NOT care if it is Flame
Hardened or Nitrated. The hardness is the same - What is difference is the
depth of the hardness. Nitrating is less.
When it comes to a crankshaft most are nitrated due to the depth, uniformity
and lack of stress points. Crankshaft do not fail because of corrosion - It
is VERY difficult to get corrosion between the journals and babbets. A very
thing layer of oil is more than enough to keep out oxygen - Oxygen is
required to start and keep corrosion happening.
Crankshafts fail due to abrasion (particles in the oil) and heat. Heat can
cause a babbet to loosen and rotate and block off the oil galley. NOW you
have a problem! The chance of rust getting in there... You stand a better
chance of getting pregnant from a toilet seat :-)
Well, maybe not those good an odds.
As a rule of thumb: The harder the material the slower the corrosion
process.
D2 tool steel for example is much harder and denser than say 4140 - - D2
without any protection will out last 4140.
Pull out the Chem Phys on steels and read the breakdown.
OK - Enough of Metallurgy 101.
Time for dinner.
Barry
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Just try that trick with a nitride crankshaft...You will find that they can
degrade in hours not days or weeks.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: July 13, 2010 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil
Noel:
There is No More Mineral Oil. There hasn't been for many a year.
The oils of the day are consider Natural oils, AD & Non-AD oils.
Now here is a CORROSION story for you:
Long story short... A friend was called to a site of a plane accident.
The FAA wanted the engine to towarn down.
The engine had all four cylinders removed.
The FAA & Insurance company said STOP WORK.
The engine sat OPEN with all four cylinders removed for slightly over a
YEAR.
The engine ran on AD Oil of both the Natural and Synthetic BLEND.
Guess what! Over a Year - NO CORROSION on an OPEN ENGINE.
Engine was sitting on a pallet on the hanger floor.
Nothing else was done to the engine.
SOooooo I do not put too much stock into how quick corrosion can start.
AND - I keep saying this - SYNTHETIC BLENDS (50/50).
Barry
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Synthetic oils are super slippery and from what I've read they just don't do
the job of protecting metal parts if left for a period of time. Mineral
oils are much more protective. So if a plane is being flown almost every
day no doubt about it synthetic is the way to go. If though you only fly
say once a month then mineral will be better. Either way with two stroke
engines use low ash oils and with the 912 series use a good quality
motorcycle oil.
You are right about mineral oil becoming acidic and for some reason
mechanics say that it's better in the differential of the car to have older
seasoned oil in it. The manual on my father's old '64 Jeep said to change
the oil every 20K miles... I think. That is the reason why I change my oil
as soon as the car comes out of storage for the winter.
As for which oil is best... That's like asking whose wife is best.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: July 11, 2010 11:11 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil
Howdy Noel,
Why would your prefer the mineral oil for infrequent type flying over
synthetic? I'm trying to pull out of memory about mineral oil after months
of just sitting is more likely to become more acidic than a synthetic. I
can't remember the direct info though.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304459#304=====
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304459#304459>
and much much more:
or?RotaxEngines-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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| Subject: | Fuel Pressure on a 914 |
"Requires the use of a 1EU007D UMA different pressure sender."
MGL/USA supplies a version of a non-differential UMA sender that works with
the MGL RDAC. Check with them to see if they can provide the same mod in the
differential sender. Or it may be that the differential sender doesn't need
the (electrical) mod. As I recall it had to do the the output of the older
op-amp in the UMA sender.
-- Craig
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Fuel Pressure on a 914
>From Understanding the Rotax 914 document located here:
http://www.rotax-owner.com/pdf/UNDERSTANDING%20THE%20914%20ROTAX.pdf
Indicates fuel pressure is best monitored in relation to airbox pressure:
Maximum fuel pressure is 0.35 BAR (5.08 PSI or 10.36") above airbox pressure
Minimum fuel pressure is 0.15 BAR (2.18 PSI or 4.45") above airbox pressure
Normal fuel pressure is 0.25 BAR (3.63 PSI or 7.41") above airbox pressure
Gauge for monitoring this way can be found here:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/umadiff1.php
Ken Ryan
Anchorage, Alaska
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:09 PM, pestar <peter@reivernet.com> wrote:
Background
Building a MCR-4S (dynaero.com) with a 914 fitted with an intercooler. Have
MGL instrumentation with fuel flow monitoring. Had thought about monitoring
fuel pressure which leads to the following questions.
1. Does anyone monitor fuel pressure on their 914 and what value do they get
out of it.
2. If you have done it where did you mount the sender as my first
impression of doing this looks as so you have to hack into the Rotax
pipework which I would prefer not if it can be avoided.
3. What value sender did you use and what type.
Appreciate your comments.
Peter Armstrong
Auckland, New Zealand
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304701#304701
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