---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/06/10: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:07 AM - Re: Sensenich Prop (MacDonald Doug) 2. 05:12 AM - Re: Re: Sensenich Prop (Damien) 3. 05:21 AM - Re: prop balancing (Catz631@aol.com) 4. 06:23 AM - Re: prop balancing (Roger Lee) 5. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: prop balancing (Hugh McKay) 6. 07:29 AM - Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax (Tom Jones) 7. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: prop balancing (K BURNS) 8. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: prop balancing (FLYaDIVE) 9. 09:40 AM - Re: Engine running rough at 3400 RPM and above (MacDonald Doug) 10. 04:38 PM - 91X ignition shields (rparigoris) 11. 05:46 PM - Re: 91X ignition shields (C_Pickett) 12. 06:16 PM - Re: prop balancing (Roger Lee) 13. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax (Richard Girard) 14. 09:03 PM - Re: 91X ignition shields (rparigoris) 15. 09:46 PM - Re: Re: 91X ignition shields (Richard Girard) 16. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax (Richard Girard) 17. 10:08 PM - Re: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax (Richard Girard) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:08 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Sensenich Prop Keep in mind that this is a Zenith product we're talking about and Chris Heintz is a master of simplistic designs. The end result often looks a little wierd but functions very well. I'm not a 601 builder but since it was designed around the same time, I'd bet it has the same throttle arrangement as my 701 is supposed to have. The throttle actuators that are on the instrument panel do not attach directly to the carbs. They run through the firewall to a cross tube that joins the left and right throttle controls together. Then at some point on this cross shaft is another set of arms that connect to the cables that actually run to the carbs. The arrangment sounds clunk and looks pretty wierd but works pretty well. If the 601 we are talking about has the stock Zenith throttle actuator, it is a steel tube or rod with a "T" handle on the end of it. The purpose of the rubber bumper is to keep the "T" bar away from the panel so it can be grabbed easily. Essentially, trimming a little off of the rubber would not likely hurt the function of the plane but as has been said, you might be better off pulling the cowl and going through the full throttle linkage setup to verify that you are getting full throttle opening. Best of luck. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder NW Ontario, Canada 912 UL > > Time: 04:49:57 AM PST US > Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Sensenich Prop > From: Richard Girard > > Damien, before you go whacking away at the rubber stop, > pull the cowl, take > off the air filters or filter box, and do a visual check to > make sure the > throttle plates are fully open when the throttle lever is > against the stop. > If they aren't, find a good mechanic and get the throttle > cables adjusted > properly. Have him do a mechanical and pneumatic > synchronization of the > carbs while he's at it. If the carbs are out of synch you > could be losing > RPM even if the engine seems to be running fine. > > Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:56 AM PST US From: "Damien" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Sensenich Prop > Thanks to all of you for your responses to my inquiry about changing to the Sensenich prop. I now have a solid base to go forward with. I will let you know how it works out. Regards, Damien DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:41 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: prop balancing Roger I ordered the balancer from Mark and should have it Monday. Thanks for the info ! Dick Maddux 912UL Milton,Fl PS : am installing a Kiev on another paradise today wish I had the balancer BUT, they are usually spot on. (or close) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:11 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: prop balancing From: "Roger Lee" Hi Dick, I think it should work out fairly well for you. It does a good job on wheels and props. The hardest thing to do for any balancer is to get very high quality bearings if your balancer uses them. Some people just take a rod and put it on the edge of two pieces of metal setting on end with sharpened edges like a knife to make it more sensitive. This balancer that you bought has served me well for 3 years and the price was right to have something that was easy, cost effective and reliable. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307765#307765 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:47 AM PST US From: "Hugh McKay" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: prop balancing Roger, In all this discussion about balancing props, including the hub and bolts, and the supposed Rotax prop out-of-balance tolerance of 0.5 gram no one has mentioned the spinner. The spinner rotates with the prop. How do you balance a spinner to within 0.5 grams? Spinners can be out easily that much. You certainly can't on the Universal Motorcycle Wheel Balancer you recommended. Hugh McKay -------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lee" Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 9:22 AM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: prop balancing > > Hi Dick, > > I think it should work out fairly well for you. It does a good job on > wheels and props. The hardest thing to do for any balancer is to get very > high quality bearings if your balancer uses them. Some people just take a > rod and put it on the edge of two pieces of metal setting on end with > sharpened edges like a knife to make it more sensitive. This balancer that > you bought has served me well for 3 years and the price was right to have > something that was easy, cost effective and reliable. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated > Rotax Repair Center > 520-574-1080 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307765#307765 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:00 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax From: "Tom Jones" Rick, here's an update on my Key West. This AM I hooked it back up to the starter side of the master contactor (same terminal that the hobbs is connected to) and turned the master on for about a minute then off. The hobbs continued to run and my multimeter showed 4.3 volts on the out put terminal of the key West regulator. After 60 seconds the hobbs stopped running and the Key west output was down to 2.5 volts and dropping slowly. My theory now is that the Key West regulator does hold a slight residual voltage. I don't know why, maybe it is needed in applications without a battery where the alternator needs that voltage to be excited to start working. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307775#307775 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:09 AM PST US From: K BURNS Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: prop balancing Dynamic prop balancer-see below $1500 seems steep, form a group to buy one, and book it out, cheaper than wrecking an Prop /Hub/Crank combination http://www.rpxtech.com/rpxweb/Dynavibe.asp Kevin ----- Original Message ---- From: Hugh McKay Sent: Friday, 6 August, 2010 14:41:29 Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: prop balancing Roger, In all this discussion about balancing props, including the hub and bolts, and the supposed Rotax prop out-of-balance tolerance of 0.5 gram no one has mentioned the spinner. The spinner rotates with the prop. How do you balance a spinner to within 0.5 grams? Spinners can be out easily that much. You certainly can't on the Universal Motorcycle Wheel Balancer you recommended. Hugh McKay -------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lee" Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 9:22 AM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: prop balancing > > Hi Dick, > > I think it should work out fairly well for you. It does a good job on wheels >and props. The hardest thing to do for any balancer is to get very high quality >bearings if your balancer uses them. Some people just take a rod and put it on >the edge of two pieces of metal setting on end with sharpened edges like a knife >to make it more sensitive. This balancer that you bought has served me well for >3 years and the price was right to have something that was easy, cost effective >and reliable. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated > Rotax Repair Center > 520-574-1080 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307765#307765 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: prop balancing From: FLYaDIVE Gaggle: At work I do a lot of vibration and shock testing. The company is considering a dynamic balancer with computer. Now that there have been a few that have done the static balancing - Has any one done a comparison is results between the static and dynamic? What kinds of improvements have you noted? Barry On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Roger Lee wrote: > > Hi Dick, > > I think it should work out fairly well for you. It does a good job on > wheels and props. The hardest thing to do for any balancer is to get very > high quality bearings if your balancer uses them. Some people just take a > rod and put it on the edge of two pieces of metal setting on end with > sharpened edges like a knife to make it more sensitive. This balancer that > you bought has served me well for 3 years and the price was right to have > something that was easy, cost effective and reliable. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated > Rotax Repair Center > 520-574-1080 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307765#307765 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:28 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine running rough at 3400 RPM and above I think I have my rough running engine issues sorted out. I spent several hours at Oshkosh harassing the tech gurrus from CPS, Lockwood, LEAF and Missippi. They all had some interesting things to say but had no smoking gun for me. Basically, soak the carbs for a couple of hours in a carb cleaner or a laquer thinner type solution and try them again. The tech from lockwood suggested that perhaps I was actually running rich rather than lean. He said that at higher RPMs the enrichener circuit actually leans out the mixture after its initial shot of fuel. This got me thinking. After re-assembling my carbs and re-installing them on the plane, I decided that I didn't like how close my enrichener cables were to my carb heat cable. I adjusted the geometry so that there was more clearance. This adjustment made it so that the enrichener would not close completely. With a little further playing around the enricheners are now functioning correctly. However, now that I've looked at it, I'm pretty sure that they were not closing correctly before either. AHA, a smoking gun. Last night I performed a complete re-balance for the carbs and ran the engine up. I have a minor roughness at idle that was not there before but was able to run up to 5200 RPM static (on the tach) and the engine ran perfectly smoothly. Today I am going to double check the idle mixtures and that should fix up the rough idle. Thanks to all of you that gave me suggestions. This has been a bit of a learning experience. I knew it would be something simple but it was just a matter of finding the cause. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder NW Ontario, Canada 912 UL ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:22 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 91X ignition shields From: "rparigoris" The older schematics I have for my 914 shows to ground the ignition shutoff wire shields at both ends, the engine side and panel side. I think I may remember seeing Rotax rethought this? Question is should I ground shields at both ends? Thx. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307813#307813 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:52 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 91X ignition shields From: "C_Pickett" A way to remember. A conductor is connected on both ends and causes a flow. A shield is a drain open on one end Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307819#307819 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:17 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: prop balancing From: "Roger Lee" I have a dynamic balancer and yes it can make a big difference, but not all props are out as much as another. Some get a little correction while others get more. there are others things at play sometimes after the static and after it's back on the engine. Usual cost is any where from $250-$350 for a dynamic balance. A dynamic balancer's cost is around $4k and up. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307821#307821 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax From: Richard Girard Tom, I would absolutely bet that putting in the filter cap would stop this non sense. I've never bothered to check the output of the Key West beyond verifying that it put out DC power at 14 V +/- .2 volts when I finished rewiring the plane. You have an interesting problem. I bet Bob Nukolls at the Aeroelectric Connection could help you understand and identify what is going on far better than me. B & C Specialty Products has the cap I used (about $15 IIRC) http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx Rick Girard On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Tom Jones wrote: > > Rick, here's an update on my Key West. This AM I hooked it back up to the > starter side of the master contactor (same terminal that the hobbs is > connected to) and turned the master on for about a minute then off. > > The hobbs continued to run and my multimeter showed 4.3 volts on the out > put terminal of the key West regulator. > > After 60 seconds the hobbs stopped running and the Key west output was down > to 2.5 volts and dropping slowly. > > My theory now is that the Key West regulator does hold a slight residual > voltage. I don't know why, maybe it is needed in applications without a > battery where the alternator needs that voltage to be excited to start > working. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307775#307775 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:59 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 91X ignition shields From: "rparigoris" Hi C_Pickett I understand the concept of grounding at one end only for RF on radio / avionics install. Rotax however was very specific in older documentation to shield grounds at both ends. I think they may have revised this procedure though?? I don't know reason they chose to ground shield at both ends on older documentation, but they did. Anyway do you know for a fact that they now recommend only grounding to the engine case and leaving ignition switch end shield ungrounded? Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307831#307831 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 91X ignition shields From: Richard Girard Ron, For the 914, see the Installation Manual, page 116 refer to Figure 75 that clearly shows the ignition switch wire shielding is grounded at both ends. Also the following, same page, "CAUTION:.....shielding braid (low resistance) on both ends grounded to prevent EMI (e.g.specification MIL 27500/18). And, "the metal base of each ignition switch must be grounded to the aircraft frame to prevent EMI." For the 912, see Installation Manual, page 114 refer to Figure 73, also clearly shows that the ignition wire shielding is grounded at both ends. The wording in the CAUTION is exactly the same. Both these are taken from the latest edition of the respective Installation Manuals. Rick Girard On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 11:03 PM, rparigoris wrote: > rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > > Hi C_Pickett > > I understand the concept of grounding at one end only for RF on radio / > avionics install. > > Rotax however was very specific in older documentation to shield grounds at > both ends. > > I think they may have revised this procedure though?? > > I don't know reason they chose to ground shield at both ends on older > documentation, but they did. > > Anyway do you know for a fact that they now recommend only grounding to the > engine case and leaving ignition switch end shield ungrounded? > > Ron P. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307831#307831 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax From: Richard Girard Tom, As I was looking up the answer to Ron Pagoris' question about the 91X ignition grounding I found the following in both the 912 and 914 Installation manuals concerning the use of a capacitor in the rectifier circuit "A capacitor of at least 22,000 uf / 25 V must is necessary to protect the correct function of regulator and to flatten voltage. The regulator is not designed to store any electrical charge. If for any reason the battery or bus system is disconnected from the regulator while the engine is running (i.e. the master switch is shut off) the capacitor will safely absorb and dissipate the electrical charge produced by the generator. Otherwise the regulator would be damaged." On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > Tom, I would absolutely bet that putting in the filter cap would stop this > non sense. I've never bothered to check the output of the Key West beyond > verifying that it put out DC power at 14 V +/- .2 volts when I finished > rewiring the plane. > You have an interesting problem. I bet Bob Nukolls at the Aeroelectric > Connection could help you understand and identify what is going on far > better than me. > B & C Specialty Products has the cap I used (about $15 IIRC) > http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx > > Rick Girard > > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Tom Jones wrote: > >> > >> >> Rick, here's an update on my Key West. This AM I hooked it back up to the >> starter side of the master contactor (same terminal that the hobbs is >> connected to) and turned the master on for about a minute then off. >> >> The hobbs continued to run and my multimeter showed 4.3 volts on the out >> put terminal of the key West regulator. >> >> After 60 seconds the hobbs stopped running and the Key west output was >> down to 2.5 volts and dropping slowly. >> >> My theory now is that the Key West regulator does hold a slight residual >> voltage. I don't know why, maybe it is needed in applications without a >> battery where the alternator needs that voltage to be excited to start >> working. >> >> -------- >> Tom Jones >> Classic IV >> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp >> Ellensburg, WA >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307775#307775 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Key West Regulator on 503 Rotax From: Richard Girard Crud, Tom, I hit the send button to soon. Sorry. Now obviously the rectifier regulators we're talking about here are not the same as the Key West which requires no dummy load, i.e. can be used without a battery, but the use of a capacitor is pretty well explained in the 91X IM and I wanted to share it with you. As I said, I run a capacitor of this size on my Key West regulated 582 for the reasons stated, "to flatten voltage" (I guess this is Austro German manual speak for cleaning up the regulator output. :-} ). Adding a second layer of protection to protect the Key West is just the icing on the cake. Rick On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > Tom, As I was looking up the answer to Ron Pagoris' question about the 91X > ignition grounding I found the following in both the 912 and 914 > Installation manuals concerning the use of a capacitor in the rectifier > circuit > > "A capacitor of at least 22,000 uf / 25 V must is necessary to protect the > correct function of regulator and to flatten voltage. The regulator is not > designed to store any electrical charge. If for any reason the battery or > bus system is disconnected from the regulator while the engine is running > (i.e. the master switch is shut off) the capacitor will safely absorb and > dissipate the electrical charge produced by the generator. Otherwise the > regulator would be damaged." > > > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > >> Tom, I would absolutely bet that putting in the filter cap would stop this >> non sense. I've never bothered to check the output of the Key West beyond >> verifying that it put out DC power at 14 V +/- .2 volts when I finished >> rewiring the plane. >> You have an interesting problem. I bet Bob Nukolls at the Aeroelectric >> Connection could help you understand and identify what is going on far >> better than me. >> B & C Specialty Products has the cap I used (about $15 IIRC) >> http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx >> >> Rick Girard >> >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Tom Jones wrote: >> >>> nahsikhs@elltel.net> >>> >>> Rick, here's an update on my Key West. This AM I hooked it back up to >>> the starter side of the master contactor (same terminal that the hobbs is >>> connected to) and turned the master on for about a minute then off. >>> >>> The hobbs continued to run and my multimeter showed 4.3 volts on the out >>> put terminal of the key West regulator. >>> >>> After 60 seconds the hobbs stopped running and the Key west output was >>> down to 2.5 volts and dropping slowly. >>> >>> My theory now is that the Key West regulator does hold a slight residual >>> voltage. I don't know why, maybe it is needed in applications without a >>> battery where the alternator needs that voltage to be excited to start >>> working. >>> >>> -------- >>> Tom Jones >>> Classic IV >>> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp >>> Ellensburg, WA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307775#307775 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.