Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:07 AM - Re: Hose Change (qaz11)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: 447 analysis (David Kulp)
3. 07:58 AM - Re: 447 analysis (dave)
4. 08:48 AM - Re: 447 analysis (Richard Girard)
5. 09:10 AM - Re: 447 analysis (dave)
6. 01:35 PM - Re: Re: 447 analysis (Blumax008@aol.com)
7. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Hugh McKay)
8. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Richard Girard)
9. 07:01 PM - Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (rparigoris)
10. 08:00 PM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Richard Girard)
11. 08:31 PM - Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (rparigoris)
Message 1
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yes you have now found the true meaning of high pressure hose, these are a heavy
duty hose, and the ends are bonded to the rubber for maximum durability, there
is nothing I have heard of that can hold up to the pressure, the return line
is easy, but not the high pressure, I dont know why but that sure seems like
a lot of money you might get the part numbers and start doing an internet search,
is there like a ton of work to change this hose,? or is it an expensive hose?
good luck
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| Subject: | Re: 447 analysis |
**
this than the other two, but for the longest life I'd personally limit the
max
rpm on a continuous basis to about 5600; 5400 is the "sweet spot" for the
447/503.
6000+ all the time will knock a bit off your TBO as well as use a lot
more gas than you really need to burn.
Thank you all so much for lots of input. Now I can adjust my flying to what's
most agreeable to the 447; especially the RPMs and engine loading.
I guess it stands to reason the place my engine wants to run is between 52-5400
Rs. That just felt to me like I was abusing it, but I guess not.
The difference in CHT the gauges show isn't a concern, since checking the temp
of the plugs and heads with a laser thermometer immediately after
landing shows they're virtually identical.
But I'd like to determine why one plug has two different burn rates. I have a
thought/question that may shed some light. Is there a recommended
order in which to install the spark plug gasket and the ring that sends the CHT
to the gauge? Does the gasket go up against the plug with the ring
between the gasket and head, or does the ring go against the plug with the gasket
between the ring and the head? Maybe this is a source of
an air leak and may be why the gauges show such a difference in CHT.
Again, thanks for the input on the RPM question. Much appreciated!!
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
**
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 447 analysis |
David, 52 to 5400 is not a sweet spot and this is why you might be having issues.
I can run a 503 for 600 hour plus with oil injection at 5800 to 6000 rpm
with NO teardowns, de carboning etc- change plugs 100 to 150 hours.
Rotax exhaust is what tunes your inpulses( timing ) they do not like to run much
under 5400 . Many guys will modify their exhaust to make things fit but really
mess up the tuning. 2 " can lose you 10 to 15% HP easy and change the rpm
band of where you get HP and torque.
To each their own but i base mine on thousands of hours behind them and over 30
years in the air.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
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| Subject: | Re: 447 analysis |
Dave, I have to take issue with the ideas presented here about 447
performance. First take a look at the performance graphs found on page 10-3
of the Operations Manual. The idea that it is best to operate the engine as
low as 5200 RPM just isn't supported here. Best fuel consumption, maximum
horse power, and maximum torque all occur in the 6000 to 6500 RPM range.
Then look at page 10-1 Operating Parameters, cruising speed - 6500 RPM.
Now I know there will be lots of comments and I don't claim any kind of
expertise, but when I start thinking about doing something different from
the Rotax spec's I remember Brian Carpenter's line, "Rotax has a hundred
white coated engineers working on these engines for the last 30 years, what
chance do you think you have to come up with something they haven't?"
So, I still say do it as the book says. Just MHO.
Rick
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 8:31 AM, David Kulp <undoctor@ptd.net> wrote:
> *
> this than the other two, but for the longest life I'd personally limit
the max
> rpm on a continuous basis to about 5600; 5400 is the "sweet spot" for the
447/503.
> 6000+ all the time will knock a bit off your TBO as well as use a lot
> more gas than you really need to burn.
>
> Thank you all so much for lots of input. Now I can adjust my flying to what's
most agreeable to the 447; especially the RPMs and engine loading.
> I guess it stands to reason the place my engine wants to run is between 52-5400
Rs. That just felt to me like I was abusing it, but I guess not.
> The difference in CHT the gauges show isn't a concern, since checking the temp
of the plugs and heads with a laser thermometer immediately after
> landing shows they're virtually identical.
>
> But I'd like to determine why one plug has two different burn rates. I have
a thought/question that may shed some light. Is there a recommended
> order in which to install the spark plug gasket and the ring that sends the CHT
to the gauge? Does the gasket go up against the plug with the ring
> between the gasket and head, or does the ring go against the plug with the gasket
between the ring and the head? Maybe this is a source of
> an air leak and may be why the gauges show such a difference in CHT.
>
> Again, thanks for the input on the RPM question. Much appreciated!!
>
> Dave Kulp
> Bethlehem, PA
>
> FireFly 11DMK
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 447 analysis |
Rick. you are saying pretty well what I am saying.
Dave
[quote="rickofudall"]Dave, I have to take issue with the ideas presented here about
447 performance. First take a look at the performance graphs found on page
10-3 of the Operations Manual. The idea that it is best to operate the engine
as low as 5200 RPM just isn't supported here. Best fuel consumption, maximum
horse power, and maximum torque all occur in the 6000 to 6500 RPM range. Then
look at page 10-1 Operating Parameters, cruising speed - 6500 RPM.
Now I know there will be lots of comments and I don't claim any kind of expertise,
but when I start thinking about doing something different from the Rotax spec's
I remember Brian Carpenter's line, "Rotax has a hundred white coated engineers
working on these engines for the last 30 years, what chance do you think
you have to come up with something they haven't?"
So, I still say do it as the book says. Just MHO.
Rick
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 8:31 AM, David Kulp wrote:
>
> > [b]
> > this than the other two, but for the longest life I'd personally limit
the max
> > rpm on a continuous basis to about 5600; 5400 is the "sweet spot" for
the 447/503.
> > 6000+ all the time will knock a bit off your TBO as well as use a lot
> > more gas than you really need to burn.
> >
> > Thank you all so much for lots of input. Now I can adjust my flying to what's
most agreeable to the 447; especially the RPMs and engine loading.
> > I guess it stands to reason the place my engine wants to run is between 52-5400
Rs. That just felt to me like I was abusing it, but I guess not.
> > The difference in CHT the gauges show isn't a concern, since checking the temp
of the plugs and heads with a laser thermometer immediately after
> > landing shows they're virtually identical.
> >
> > But I'd like to determine why one plug has two different burn rates. I have
a thought/question that may shed some light. Is there a recommended
> > order in which to install the spark plug gasket and the ring that sends the
CHT to the gauge? Does the gasket go up against the plug with the ring
> > between the gasket and head, or does the ring go against the plug with the
gasket between the ring and the head? Maybe this is a source of
> > an air leak and may be why the gauges show such a difference in CHT.
> >
> > Again, thanks for the input on the RPM question. Much appreciated!!
> >
> > Dave Kulp
> > Bethlehem, PA
> >
> > FireFly 11DMK
> >
> > [/b]
> >
> > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> > tp://forums.matronics.com
> > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
> [b]
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309632#309632
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 447 analysis |
In a message dated 8/21/2010 12:11:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dave@cfisher.com writes:
"Rotax has a hundred white coated engineers working on these engines for
the last 30 years, what chance do you think you have to come up with
something they haven't?"
For the same reason that the American Cancer Society has had 100,000+ white
coated researchers trying to find a cure for Cancer.
What they've actually found is that Cancer is a BIG MONEY MAKING BUSINESS!
That's why Rotax recommends overhauls at 300 hours when I know from
experience that you can go 1,500+. Don't believe everything you read. I've got
32
years flying Rotax 2-cycle motors. I know what they will & will not do &
don't need a book to tell me.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
OK guys, We have checked all the wiring everyone has suggested for
continuity:
"P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the ignition pick-ups, and the
two red wires going down to the engine (these two red wires are grounded
in the engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram, so we just
disconnected one end of each red wire on top of the engine and ohmed
each wire to ground and we got continuity. Therefore we assume the red
wires are good. We put everything back together and the engine did the
exact same thing. The engine started and ran, but had a slight roughness
to it. I ran it up to 2200 rpm and killed the left mag switch. There was
no drop in rpm at 2200. The engine continued to run. I then opened the
left mag switch and closed the right mag switch, and the engine died
(was killed) immediately. Same problem!!
Dick you suggested switching all the wires from one ignition module to
the other. Are they identical and can they be switched without harming
the engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is on the
other mag, what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is on
the same mag, what does that tell us?
Still searching,
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000 ELSA
Rotax 912 UL
N661WW
From: Catz631@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughnessEngine roughness
Hugh,
Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to the
other and see if the problem follows.
Dick Maddux
Milton Fl
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
Hugh, Has anyone tried to verify you have spark by grounding out the plug
and trying to see spark jumping the gap on the plug recently? I remember
this from Rotax Cert school. Attempting to do this can kill an itty bitty
diode in the ignition module and since the module is potted there is no
other way to fix it but to replace the module. What symptoms this blown
diode would exhibit was never discussed.
Hope this helps.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> OK guys, We have checked all the wiring everyone has suggested for
> continuity:
>
> "P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the ignition pick-ups, and the two
> red wires going down to the engine (these two red wires are grounded in the
> engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram, so we just disconnected one
> end of each red wire on top of the engine and ohmed each wire to ground and
> we got continuity. Therefore we assume the red wires are good. We put
> everything back together and the engine did the exact same thing. The engine
> started and ran, but had a slight roughness to it. I ran it up to 2200 rpm
> and killed the left mag switch. There was no drop in rpm at 2200. The engine
> continued to run. I then opened the left mag switch and closed the right mag
> switch, and the engine died (was killed) immediately. Same problem!!
>
> Dick you suggested switching all the wires from one ignition module to the
> other. Are they identical and can they be switched without harming the
> engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is on the other mag,
> what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is on the same mag,
> what does that tell us?
>
> Still searching,
> Hugh McKay
> Allegro 2000 ELSA
> Rotax 912 UL
> N661WW
>
> *From:* Catz631@aol.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughnessEngine roughness
>
> Hugh,
> Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to the
> other and see if the problem follows.
> Dick Maddux
> Milton Fl
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
Hi Rick
"Has anyone tried to verify you have spark by grounding out the plug and trying
to see spark jumping the gap on the plug recently? I remember this from Rotax
Cert school. Attempting to do this can kill an itty bitty diode in the ignition
module and since the module is potted there is no other way to fix it but to
replace the module. What symptoms this blown diode would exhibit was never discussed.
Hope this helps.
Rick Girard"
This doesn't make much sense to me. Are you sure you don't mean pulling plug wire
off spark plug and turning over motor where the plug wire can't find ground??
(I have heard this warning on many electronic ignitions)
Or perhaps you mean completely shorting out plug wire? (I never heard this before)
Allowing a plug to make a spark is exactly what is supposed to happen, no?
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309696#309696
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
I tried to explain it as it was explained in school, but perhaps I should
have given more detail.
The warning was to not try the old 39 Ford method of pulling a spark plug
and grounding it on the engine case to try and see a spark. If the plug does
not ground, the energy has nowhere else to go but through this diode in the
module which will kill it.
Sorry for the confusion.
Incidentally, the proper way to check for spark on any Rotax engine is to
put an ignition spark tester in the spark plug circuit. The tester has a
light driven by the spark energy, it's bright enough to see in broad
daylight, and the circuit is complete so there is no potential for damage to
the ignition modules. You can get spark testers from almost any auto tool
supplier for under $10 (I think Snap On has one for about $15, but that's
Snap On) Harbor Freight regularly has them on sale for $1.99, but their
quality is so spotty I don't know if I'd risk an $800+ ignition module on
one.
I hope that is a more complete explanation.
Rick
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:01 PM, rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>wrote:
> rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hi Rick
> "Has anyone tried to verify you have spark by grounding out the plug and
> trying to see spark jumping the gap on the plug recently? I remember this
> from Rotax Cert school. Attempting to do this can kill an itty bitty diode
> in the ignition module and since the module is potted there is no other way
> to fix it but to replace the module. What symptoms this blown diode would
> exhibit was never discussed. Hope this helps.
> Rick Girard"
>
> This doesn't make much sense to me. Are you sure you don't mean pulling
> plug wire off spark plug and turning over motor where the plug wire can't
> find ground?? (I have heard this warning on many electronic ignitions)
>
> Or perhaps you mean completely shorting out plug wire? (I never heard this
> before)
>
> Allowing a plug to make a spark is exactly what is supposed to happen, no?
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309696#309696
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
Hi Rick
Thx. for the clarification.
Ron Parigoris
Do not archive
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