Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:08 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Brian Davies)
2. 02:34 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughnessRe: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Thom Riddle)
3. 04:02 AM - Re: roughness Engine roughness (MacDonald Doug)
4. 04:07 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Richard Girard)
5. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughnessRe: Engine roughness (Catz631@aol.com)
6. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (FLYaDIVE)
7. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Chris Blackmore)
8. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Dave Austin)
9. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Noel Loveys)
10. 08:10 PM - Bad Bolt (John Fasching)
11. 08:52 PM - Re: Bad Bolt (Dave)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
Hi Hugh,
Glad to hear that you have fixed your problem. On the subject of crimping
it is considered bad practice to tin the conductor before crimping because
the solder can flow under the crimping pressure and result in a loose joint.
Some types of "open" connectors where you wrap tangs around the cable, can
be made more secure by soldering after crimping. This is not necessary with
barrel type crimp connectors. A properly crimped connector with good
support for the insulator as well as the conductor, should give good service
provided it is protected from vibratiion. A soldered connection runs the
risk of the solder wicking up the cable inside the insulation and creating a
stress point which will result in a broken conductor if there is any
vibration caused by a poorly supported cable.
Whatever method you use, the important thing for electrical wiring in the
engine area is to make absolutely sure that nothing moves when the engine
is running. Lots and lots of cable ties is the answer. Copper work hardens
when subjected to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break.
Regards
Brian Davies
Europa 912ULS
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh
McKay
Sent: 25 August 2010 01:37
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness
OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others:
I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and
counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire
especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back
and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break
in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to
the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and
began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely
examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there
were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I
noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being
crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug
crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type
problem keeps showing up on these engines.
Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of
the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female
spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is
now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"!
Going flying tomorrow!!
Thanks,
Hugh McKay
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughnessRe: Engine |
roughness Engine roughness
Hugh,
Very glad to hear you found the wiring culprit. If you don't mind doing so,
it would be helpful if you could take the time to post a snapshot of the
area where you found the almost broken wire, pointing out in the photo which
wire was it was. The utility of this list depends upon each of us adding
what we can to the knowledge base.
Thom
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: roughness Engine roughness |
Hugh, I hate to be the barer of bad news but you just created a gauranteed, gonna
fail again situation. NEVER tin a crimp on connection in a high vibration
environment. It creates a stress riser inside the wire where the solder ends.
This problem will return in fairly short order. When it does, it will likely
look like someone cut the wire off just past the end of the solder you applied.
Essentially, there are solder type connections and there are crimp on connections
but you should never combine to two techniques. Solder connectors have built
in strain relief to support the cable.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
Industrial Electronics technician (day job)
NW Ontario, Canada
QUOTE
I noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being
crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped
on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem
keeps showing up on these engines.
Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown
wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated Male/female spade connector,
secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working
normal. She is "purring like a kitten"!
Going flying tomorrow!!
Thanks,
Hugh McKay
END QUOTE
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
I second Brian's thoughts on soldering. Use good quality PIDG crimp
connectors and a good crimper, not the auto parts $4.99 special type
cheapies, and you won't have wire strand breakage problems. Soldering just
gives the wire a hard edge to start the break, particularly in a high
vibration environment. See AC 43.13.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Brian Davies <brian.davies@clara.co.uk>wrote:
> Hi Hugh,
>
> Glad to hear that you have fixed your problem. On the subject of crimping
> it is considered bad practice to tin the conductor before crimping because
> the solder can flow under the crimping pressure and result in a loose
> joint. Some types of "open" connectors where you wrap tangs around the
> cable, can be made more secure by soldering after crimping. This is not
> necessary with barrel type crimp connectors. A properly crimped connector
> with good support for the insulator as well as the conductor, should give
> good service provided it is protected from vibratiion. A soldered
> connection runs the risk of the solder wicking up the cable inside the
> insulation and creating a stress point which will result in a broken
> conductor if there is any vibration caused by a poorly supported cable.
>
> Whatever method you use, the important thing for electrical wiring in the
> engine area is to make absolutely sure that nothing moves when the engine
> is running. Lots and lots of cable ties is the answer. Copper work hardens
> when subjected to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break.
>
> Regards
>
> Brian Davies
>
> Europa 912ULS
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Hugh McKay
> *Sent:* 25 August 2010 01:37
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness
>
> OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others:
>
> I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and
> counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire
> especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back
> and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break
> in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to
> the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and
> began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely
> examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there
> were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I
> noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being
> crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug
> crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type
> problem keeps showing up on these engines.
>
> Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of
> the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female
> spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is
> now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"!
>
> Going flying tomorrow!!
> Thanks,
> Hugh McKay
>
> **
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughnessRe: Engine |
roughness
Sneaky little devils(those wires) aren't they Hugh ? Glad you found it !
Dick Maddux
Milton,Fl
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
Brian:
Very good post.
If I may add to your post...
The basic rule of securing items is: Movable items to Movable AND Fixed to
Fixed.
What that means is: If you are securing say a wire that is coming out of
the firewall secure it to the engine mount. If you are securing say a EGT
or CHT probe secure it to the engine side of the mount first.
The difference being the engine is on the movable vibration dampening side
of the engine mount.
THEN if you have to go to a Fixed point or visa-versa just make a service
loop to remove strain and give flexability.
Here is a trick that I have been doing for YEARS (about 15 of them). When
it comes to crimping and soldering:
1 - Use the proper crimp tool.
The cheep dimpling type you find at Home Depot is NOT the type you want to
use. They create stress points. Yes, a good one CRIMPS not dimples the
connector and wire. And Yes, they cost a bit.
2 - O! The trick: On your battery lugs, do the following:
a> Clean the connection very well.
b> Even if the connection is a used connection this can be done - Clean it
very well - I use MEK.
If it is OIL soaked, you can soak the cable in mineral spirits and them
rinse with Alcohol.
c> After you crimp the lug onto the wire - SOLDER - Yes, solder but here is
HOW:
Solder ONLY the end of the wire next to the mounting hole.
Use Silver Solder - 3% or higher.
AND don't use excessive heat.
You will probably need to use a propane torch WITH a small pointed flame.
This is to keep the heat concentrated. AND even a 500 Watt gun does
not develop enough heat.
d> REMEMBER - Only enough solder to cover the END of the cable Let me
repeat that.... SOLDER ONLY THE RING END OF THE LUG & WIRE.
DO NOT FLOW THE SOLDER ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE LUG.
What this does for you is - Makes both a excellent Mechanical and Electrical
connection.
It keep OIL from getting into the cable.
Over the years you will have a fantastic connection and CORROSION can not
start within the crimp.
REMEMBER - CLEAN the connection before and ESPECIALLY AFTER soldering.
Again for this type of connection I use a 50/50 mixture of Alcohol & MEK.
Hope this helps the builders out there.
Barry
Whatever method you use, the important thing for electrical wiring in the
> engine area is to make absolutely sure that nothing moves when the engine
> is running. Lots and lots of cable ties is the answer. Copper work hardens
> when subjected to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break.
>
> Regards
>
> Brian Davies
>
> Europa 912ULS
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Hugh McKay
> *Sent:* 25 August 2010 01:37
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness
>
> OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others:
>
> I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and
> counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire
> especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back
> and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break
> in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to
> the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and
> began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely
> examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there
> were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I
> noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being
> crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug
> crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type
> problem keeps showing up on these engines.
>
> Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of
> the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female
> spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is
> now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"!
>
> Going flying tomorrow!!
> Thanks,
> Hugh McKay
>
> **
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
Hugh,
Actually tinning is not advisable in these wire connections. When you
tin, the solder runs down into the wire beyond the crimping, setting up
a stiffness which will cause the wire to break at the end of the
tinning, up inside the insulation.
Considered a bad practice.
Dave Austin - 601 HDS 912 UL
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness |
Oops! Not tinning the crimp connector in radio is poor practice but....
airplanes are another quintal of fish! Airplanes, which always have a lot
of vibration, should never be tinned at a crimp. The very fact that this is
where you had a problem should show you that it is a place to be careful of
because of vibration.
If the wires had been tinned what would happen is all the flex caused by
vibration would occur at the very end of the wicking of the tinning and
cause a break to occur quickly at that location. If the wires broke at the
crimp; connector then it probably means the strands in the wire were too
heavy and you may have to look at either physically supporting the wire or
finding a piece of the same AWG that is constructed of more strands.
I know it sounds something like leaning into a right hook but it is true,
this is a place where you don't want to tin the wires.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh
McKay
Sent: August 24, 2010 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness
OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others:
I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and
counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire
especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back
and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break
in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to
the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and
began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely
examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there
were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I
noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being
crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug
crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type
problem keeps showing up on these engines.
Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of
the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female
spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is
now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"!
Going flying tomorrow!!
Thanks,
Hugh McKay
From: Clive Richards <mailto:s.clive.richards@homecall.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness
Hugh
I have only looked a while ago at an engine we have on the
bench as plane is not built yet but think you will find the modals are
Identical and as they are connected by plugs & Sockets you can swap them
over. Our engine is an old one & has a different arrangement on the plugs to
the current ones so if you need spares you need to get the correct one.
>From your test the left module is faulty as when you kill the right module
the engine stops
Swap the P leads plugs at module end & if fault swaps moduals then switch or
P lead is faulty.
You previously mentioned disturbing a trigger coil lead if this lead has
gone open circuit this will stop that module working as it fires 2
cylinders.
I presume all was working ok originally but have you disturbed the plugs ?
I notice from the manual that 2 plugs are fired at the same time by the
ignition coils so a faulty open plug will stop the engine if that modual
only is selected.
do not archive
Clive
From: Hugh McKay <mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness
OK guys, We have checked all the wiring everyone has suggested for
continuity:
"P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the ignition pick-ups, and the two
red wires going down to the engine (these two red wires are grounded in the
engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram, so we just disconnected one
end of each red wire on top of the engine and ohmed each wire to ground and
we got continuity. Therefore we assume the red wires are good. We put
everything back together and the engine did the exact same thing. The engine
started and ran, but had a slight roughness to it. I ran it up to 2200 rpm
and killed the left mag switch. There was no drop in rpm at 2200. The engine
continued to run. I then opened the left mag switch and closed the right mag
switch, and the engine died (was killed) immediately. Same problem!!
Dick you suggested switching all the wires from one ignition module to the
other. Are they identical and can they be switched without harming the
engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is on the other mag,
what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is on the same mag,
what does that tell us?
Still searching,
Hugh McKay
Allegro 2000 ELSA
Rotax 912 UL
N661WW
From: Catz631@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughnessEngine roughness
Hugh,
Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to the
other and see if the problem follows.
Dick Maddux
Milton Fl
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Message 10
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Here is a bolt from the gear box of a 912ULS...factory new engine. Bolt
was removed for box inspection and never re-installed. Looks like severe
over torque or bad manufacturing, but Rotax could not have properly
torqued the bolt because when I tried it the bolt would go in a certain
distance and then just spin without ever tightening.
Message 11
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Are you sure that it did not get that way when it was removed. Did you
check the installed thread engagement length against where the distortion
occurred?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Fasching
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:08 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Bad Bolt
Here is a bolt from the gear box of a 912ULS...factory new engine. Bolt was
removed for box inspection and never re-installed. Looks like severe over
torque or bad manufacturing, but Rotax could not have properly torqued the
bolt because when I tried it the bolt would go in a certain distance and
then just spin without ever tightening.
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