---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/25/10: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:08 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Brian Davies) 2. 02:34 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughnessRe: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Thom Riddle) 3. 04:02 AM - Re: roughness Engine roughness (MacDonald Doug) 4. 04:07 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Richard Girard) 5. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughnessRe: Engine roughness (Catz631@aol.com) 6. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (FLYaDIVE) 7. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Chris Blackmore) 8. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Dave Austin) 9. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness (Noel Loveys) 10. 08:10 PM - Bad Bolt (John Fasching) 11. 08:52 PM - Re: Bad Bolt (Dave) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:21 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness Hi Hugh, Glad to hear that you have fixed your problem. On the subject of crimping it is considered bad practice to tin the conductor before crimping because the solder can flow under the crimping pressure and result in a loose joint. Some types of "open" connectors where you wrap tangs around the cable, can be made more secure by soldering after crimping. This is not necessary with barrel type crimp connectors. A properly crimped connector with good support for the insulator as well as the conductor, should give good service provided it is protected from vibratiion. A soldered connection runs the risk of the solder wicking up the cable inside the insulation and creating a stress point which will result in a broken conductor if there is any vibration caused by a poorly supported cable. Whatever method you use, the important thing for electrical wiring in the engine area is to make absolutely sure that nothing moves when the engine is running. Lots and lots of cable ties is the answer. Copper work hardens when subjected to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break. Regards Brian Davies Europa 912ULS _____ From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh McKay Sent: 25 August 2010 01:37 Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others: I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem keeps showing up on these engines. Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"! Going flying tomorrow!! Thanks, Hugh McKay ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:43 AM PST US From: Thom Riddle Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughnessRe: Engine roughness Engine roughness Hugh, Very glad to hear you found the wiring culprit. If you don't mind doing so, it would be helpful if you could take the time to post a snapshot of the area where you found the almost broken wire, pointing out in the photo which wire was it was. The utility of this list depends upon each of us adding what we can to the knowledge base. Thom ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:58 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: roughness Engine roughness Hugh, I hate to be the barer of bad news but you just created a gauranteed, gonna fail again situation. NEVER tin a crimp on connection in a high vibration environment. It creates a stress riser inside the wire where the solder ends. This problem will return in fairly short order. When it does, it will likely look like someone cut the wire off just past the end of the solder you applied. Essentially, there are solder type connections and there are crimp on connections but you should never combine to two techniques. Solder connectors have built in strain relief to support the cable. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder Industrial Electronics technician (day job) NW Ontario, Canada QUOTE I noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem keeps showing up on these engines. Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated Male/female spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"! Going flying tomorrow!! Thanks, Hugh McKay END QUOTE ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness From: Richard Girard I second Brian's thoughts on soldering. Use good quality PIDG crimp connectors and a good crimper, not the auto parts $4.99 special type cheapies, and you won't have wire strand breakage problems. Soldering just gives the wire a hard edge to start the break, particularly in a high vibration environment. See AC 43.13. Rick Girard On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Brian Davies wrote: > Hi Hugh, > > Glad to hear that you have fixed your problem. On the subject of crimping > it is considered bad practice to tin the conductor before crimping because > the solder can flow under the crimping pressure and result in a loose > joint. Some types of "open" connectors where you wrap tangs around the > cable, can be made more secure by soldering after crimping. This is not > necessary with barrel type crimp connectors. A properly crimped connector > with good support for the insulator as well as the conductor, should give > good service provided it is protected from vibratiion. A soldered > connection runs the risk of the solder wicking up the cable inside the > insulation and creating a stress point which will result in a broken > conductor if there is any vibration caused by a poorly supported cable. > > Whatever method you use, the important thing for electrical wiring in the > engine area is to make absolutely sure that nothing moves when the engine > is running. Lots and lots of cable ties is the answer. Copper work hardens > when subjected to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break. > > Regards > > Brian Davies > > Europa 912ULS > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Hugh McKay > *Sent:* 25 August 2010 01:37 > *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness > > OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others: > > I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and > counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire > especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back > and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break > in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to > the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and > began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely > examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there > were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I > noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being > crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug > crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type > problem keeps showing up on these engines. > > Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of > the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female > spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is > now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"! > > Going flying tomorrow!! > Thanks, > Hugh McKay > > ** > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Kolb Mk IIIC 582 Gray head 4.00 C gearbox 3 blade WD Thanks, Homer GBYM It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong. - G.K. Chesterton ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:41 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughnessRe: Engine roughness Sneaky little devils(those wires) aren't they Hugh ? Glad you found it ! Dick Maddux Milton,Fl ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness From: FLYaDIVE Brian: Very good post. If I may add to your post... The basic rule of securing items is: Movable items to Movable AND Fixed to Fixed. What that means is: If you are securing say a wire that is coming out of the firewall secure it to the engine mount. If you are securing say a EGT or CHT probe secure it to the engine side of the mount first. The difference being the engine is on the movable vibration dampening side of the engine mount. THEN if you have to go to a Fixed point or visa-versa just make a service loop to remove strain and give flexability. Here is a trick that I have been doing for YEARS (about 15 of them). When it comes to crimping and soldering: 1 - Use the proper crimp tool. The cheep dimpling type you find at Home Depot is NOT the type you want to use. They create stress points. Yes, a good one CRIMPS not dimples the connector and wire. And Yes, they cost a bit. 2 - O! The trick: On your battery lugs, do the following: a> Clean the connection very well. b> Even if the connection is a used connection this can be done - Clean it very well - I use MEK. If it is OIL soaked, you can soak the cable in mineral spirits and them rinse with Alcohol. c> After you crimp the lug onto the wire - SOLDER - Yes, solder but here is HOW: Solder ONLY the end of the wire next to the mounting hole. Use Silver Solder - 3% or higher. AND don't use excessive heat. You will probably need to use a propane torch WITH a small pointed flame. This is to keep the heat concentrated. AND even a 500 Watt gun does not develop enough heat. d> REMEMBER - Only enough solder to cover the END of the cable Let me repeat that.... SOLDER ONLY THE RING END OF THE LUG & WIRE. DO NOT FLOW THE SOLDER ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE LUG. What this does for you is - Makes both a excellent Mechanical and Electrical connection. It keep OIL from getting into the cable. Over the years you will have a fantastic connection and CORROSION can not start within the crimp. REMEMBER - CLEAN the connection before and ESPECIALLY AFTER soldering. Again for this type of connection I use a 50/50 mixture of Alcohol & MEK. Hope this helps the builders out there. Barry Whatever method you use, the important thing for electrical wiring in the > engine area is to make absolutely sure that nothing moves when the engine > is running. Lots and lots of cable ties is the answer. Copper work hardens > when subjected to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break. > > Regards > > Brian Davies > > Europa 912ULS > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Hugh McKay > *Sent:* 25 August 2010 01:37 > *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness > > OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others: > > I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and > counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire > especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back > and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break > in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to > the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and > began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely > examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there > were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I > noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being > crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug > crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type > problem keeps showing up on these engines. > > Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of > the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female > spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is > now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"! > > Going flying tomorrow!! > Thanks, > Hugh McKay > > ** > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:24 AM PST US From: "Chris Blackmore" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:21 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness Hugh, Actually tinning is not advisable in these wire connections. When you tin, the solder runs down into the wire beyond the crimping, setting up a stiffness which will cause the wire to break at the end of the tinning, up inside the insulation. Considered a bad practice. Dave Austin - 601 HDS 912 UL ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness Oops! Not tinning the crimp connector in radio is poor practice but.... airplanes are another quintal of fish! Airplanes, which always have a lot of vibration, should never be tinned at a crimp. The very fact that this is where you had a problem should show you that it is a place to be careful of because of vibration. If the wires had been tinned what would happen is all the flex caused by vibration would occur at the very end of the wicking of the tinning and cause a break to occur quickly at that location. If the wires broke at the crimp; connector then it probably means the strands in the wire were too heavy and you may have to look at either physically supporting the wire or finding a piece of the same AWG that is constructed of more strands. I know it sounds something like leaning into a right hook but it is true, this is a place where you don't want to tin the wires. Noel From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh McKay Sent: August 24, 2010 10:07 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others: I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem keeps showing up on these engines. Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"! Going flying tomorrow!! Thanks, Hugh McKay From: Clive Richards Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:00 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness Hugh I have only looked a while ago at an engine we have on the bench as plane is not built yet but think you will find the modals are Identical and as they are connected by plugs & Sockets you can swap them over. Our engine is an old one & has a different arrangement on the plugs to the current ones so if you need spares you need to get the correct one. >From your test the left module is faulty as when you kill the right module the engine stops Swap the P leads plugs at module end & if fault swaps moduals then switch or P lead is faulty. You previously mentioned disturbing a trigger coil lead if this lead has gone open circuit this will stop that module working as it fires 2 cylinders. I presume all was working ok originally but have you disturbed the plugs ? I notice from the manual that 2 plugs are fired at the same time by the ignition coils so a faulty open plug will stop the engine if that modual only is selected. do not archive Clive From: Hugh McKay Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:45 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness OK guys, We have checked all the wiring everyone has suggested for continuity: "P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the ignition pick-ups, and the two red wires going down to the engine (these two red wires are grounded in the engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram, so we just disconnected one end of each red wire on top of the engine and ohmed each wire to ground and we got continuity. Therefore we assume the red wires are good. We put everything back together and the engine did the exact same thing. The engine started and ran, but had a slight roughness to it. I ran it up to 2200 rpm and killed the left mag switch. There was no drop in rpm at 2200. The engine continued to run. I then opened the left mag switch and closed the right mag switch, and the engine died (was killed) immediately. Same problem!! Dick you suggested switching all the wires from one ignition module to the other. Are they identical and can they be switched without harming the engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is on the other mag, what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is on the same mag, what does that tell us? Still searching, Hugh McKay Allegro 2000 ELSA Rotax 912 UL N661WW From: Catz631@aol.com Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Engine roughnessEngine roughness Hugh, Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to the other and see if the problem follows. Dick Maddux Milton Fl href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:04 PM PST US From: "John Fasching" Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Bad Bolt Here is a bolt from the gear box of a 912ULS...factory new engine. Bolt was removed for box inspection and never re-installed. Looks like severe over torque or bad manufacturing, but Rotax could not have properly torqued the bolt because when I tried it the bolt would go in a certain distance and then just spin without ever tightening. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:53 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Bad Bolt Are you sure that it did not get that way when it was removed. Did you check the installed thread engagement length against where the distortion occurred? -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:08 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Bad Bolt Here is a bolt from the gear box of a 912ULS...factory new engine. Bolt was removed for box inspection and never re-installed. Looks like severe over torque or bad manufacturing, but Rotax could not have properly torqued the bolt because when I tried it the bolt would go in a certain distance and then just spin without ever tightening. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.