Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: BRS chute repack time table (Richard Girard)
2. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: BRS chute repack time table (Dan Billingsley)
3. 09:26 AM - Re: BRS chute repack time table (lucien)
4. 10:01 AM - Re: BRS chute repack time table (Roger Lee)
5. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: BRS chute repack time table (Richard Girard)
6. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: BRS chute repack time table (Richard Girard)
7. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: BRS chute repack time table (Richard Girard)
8. 04:07 PM - Re: BRS chute repack time table (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: BRS chute repack time table |
Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence that
wants to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warranting
their safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an
emergency happens. This is the same side of the fence that has the people
who buy lotto tickets as their personal retirement plan.
Unfortunately we don't have any data on those accidents you quote.
Did the Zenith pilot do a poor preflight? Did the builder of the airplane
substitute sub standard material into his airplane? Was it overloaded. Was
it one of the 601's that were built so piss poor by the manufacturer, AMD,
that the FAA had to step in? I know of one Zenith crash that killed the
mother and father of the owner. He was repeatedly warned of the problems
with his aircraft and chose to ignore them. Yes, it's a horrible price to
pay, but what does anyone expect when deliberate stupidity takes the pilot
seat?
I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking stupid
to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The original
report on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans own site, they
only make one aircraft that they advertise as being used for aerobatics, the
S 9 "Chaos". The load limit rating of that aircraft is only +6 / -4. Yes,
this meets the requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic category ( +6,
-3) but only if it is built per the factory. Was it?
Your near miss experience. What did you do about it? Confront the pilot?
Notify the FAA? Anything but grumble?
In the end all we can do is disagree. Perhaps I'm just a relic. A relic of a
different time when professionalism, personal responsibility, and training
were the requirements for aviation, not relying on a "get out of jail free"
card when it comes to my personal safety.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and safe as the operator.
> The rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a solid propellant and if it's
> that bad a fire your toast any way so that isn't a real consideration. When
> to use it isn't about practice, but education on when and how to use it. You
> can practice your muscle memory on grabbing the handle in case of a true
> emergency. Plus nothing else to practice sense you have nothing to do, but
> float to the ground. No accidental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of
> pull to activate it. Plus the handle can come out of the socket about an
> inch before the cable goes taught. You have to tell the families of the
> Zenith (6) aircraft that had wing failure that they weren't a good idea or
> the other saves they have actually had around the world. I bet everyone of
> those Zenith pilots were thinking nothing wrong with my plane. Tell it to
> the pilot just recently at that air show that lost a wing and floated safely
> to the ground. W!
> hat about the other mornon that runs into you while you are minding you
> own business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install something. Part
> failure in experimental's is a big cause of failures.
> I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by
> your hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooked
> something. What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old saying that
> it can't hurt us.
> Your right that you'll never need it, until that one time and no one
> anywhere can predict that. I came within 50' of a midair two years ago from
> an idiot not using his radio and trying to cut in front of two planes
> already in the pattern. To me there are no cons only pros and that view
> point comes from research and education and no myths, but facts.
> As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many thousands of times I have
> heard, "Well that has never happened to me before". Wish I had a dollar for
> each time I heard that statement and every time they said it they dialed
> 911. Being a victim is easy, keeping from being one takes some fore thought.
>
> I know there are two sides of the fence I just want to be on the side that
> lives when I fall off.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310452#310452
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: BRS chute repack time table |
Richard,=0AYou call yourself a relic...that is not quite the word I had in
mind. We all =0Ahave our opinions and there is no reason to slam folks for
expressing them. =0ARoger has earned the respect of many on this list as a
professional...learn what =0Athat means and act accordingly.=0ADan =0AMesa
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Richard Girard <asl
sa.rng@gmail.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, August
29, 2010 7:10:22 AM=0ASubject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: BRS chute repack
time table=0A=0ARoger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of
the fence that wants =0Ato be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it
comes to warranting their =0Asafety and rely upon a magic bullet to save t
heir butt when an emergency =0Ahappens. This is the same side of the fence
that has the people who buy lotto =0Atickets as their personal retirement p
lan. =0A=0AUnfortunately we don't have any data on those accidents you quot
e.-=0ADid the Zenith pilot do a poor preflight? Did the builder of the ai
rplane =0Asubstitute sub standard material into his airplane? Was it overlo
aded. Was it =0Aone of the 601's that were built so piss poor by the manufa
cturer, AMD, that the =0AFAA had to step in? I know of one Zenith crash tha
t killed the mother and father =0Aof the owner. He was repeatedly warned of
the problems with his aircraft and =0Achose to ignore them. Yes, it's a ho
rrible price to pay, but what does anyone =0Aexpect when deliberate stupidi
ty takes the pilot seat?=0AI watched the video of the wing failure in Argen
tina. Pretty freaking stupid to =0Ado inverted maneuvers in a strut braced
wing aircraft. The original report on =0Athat failure said it was a Rans ai
rcraft. From Rans own site, they only make one =0Aaircraft that they advert
ise as being used for aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos". The =0Aload limit rating
of that aircraft is only +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the =0Arequirements of F
AR 23.337 for the acrobatic category ( +6, -3) but only if it =0Ais built p
er the factory. Was it?=0AYour near miss experience. What did you do about
it? Confront the pilot? Notify =0Athe FAA? Anything but grumble?=0AIn the e
nd all we can do is disagree. Perhaps I'm just a relic. A relic of a =0Adif
ferent time when professionalism, personal responsibility, and training wer
e =0Athe requirements for aviation, not relying on a "get out of jail free"
card when =0Ait comes to my personal safety.=0A=0ARick Girard=0A=0A=0AOn S
un, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A=0A-
=0A>=0A>Hi All,=0A>=0A>Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and s
afe as the operator. The =0A>rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a so
lid propellant and if it's that =0A>bad a fire your toast any way so that i
sn't a real consideration. When to use it =0A>isn't about practice, but edu
cation on when and how to use it. You can practice =0A>your muscle memory o
n grabbing the handle in case of a true emergency. Plus =0A>nothing else to
practice sense you have nothing to do, but float to the ground. =0A>No acc
idental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of pull to activate it. Plus
=0A>the handle can come out of the socket about an inch before the cable go
es =0A>taught. You have to tell the families of the Zenith (6) aircraft tha
t had wing =0A>failure that they weren't a good idea or the other saves the
y have actually had =0A>around the world. I bet everyone of those Zenith pi
lots were thinking nothing =0A>wrong with my plane. Tell it to the pilot ju
st recently at that air show that =0A>lost a wing and floated safely to the
ground. W!=0A>-hat about the other mornon that runs into you while you a
re minding you own =0A>business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install s
omething. Part failure in =0A>experimental's is a big cause of failures.=0A
>I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by y
our =0A>hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooke
d something. =0A>What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old sayi
ng that it can't hurt =0A>us.=0A>Your right that you'll never need it, unti
l that one time and no one anywhere =0A>can predict that. I came within 50'
of a midair two years ago from an idiot not =0A>using his radio and trying
to cut in front of two planes already in the pattern. =0A>To me there are
no cons only pros and that view point comes from research and =0A>education
and no myths, but facts.=0A>As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many
thousands of -times I have heard, =0A>"Well that has never happened to m
e before". Wish I had a dollar for each time I =0A>heard that statement and
every time they said it they dialed 911. Being a victim =0A>is easy, keepi
ng from being one takes some fore thought.=0A>=0A>I know there are two side
s of the fence I just want to be on the side that lives =0A>when I fall off
.=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Roger Lee=0A>Tucson, Az.=0A>Light Sport Repairman - Ma
intenance Rated=0A>Rotax Repair Center=0A>520-574-1080=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtop
ic.php?p=310452#310452=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>======
======0A>=0A>ngines-List" =0A>target="_blank">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List=0A>============0A
>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>============0A>le, Li
st Admin.=0A>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>===
=========0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A-- =0A=0AZulu Delta=0AKolb
Mk IIIC=0A582 Gray head=0A4.00 C gearbox=0A3 blade WD=0AThanks, Homer GBYM
=0A=0AIt is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be
unable to =0Aimagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.=0A---G.K.
======================= =0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: BRS chute repack time table |
rickofudall wrote:
> Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence that wants
to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warranting their
safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an emergency happens.
....
>
> I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking stupid
to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The original report
on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans own site, they only make
one aircraft that they advertise as being used for aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos".
The load limit rating of that aircraft is only +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the
requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic category ( +6, -3) but only if
it is built per the factory. Was it?
>
Well I do want to defend Roger on this one point, because it's a good one. Aerobatic
flight is a much different regime than what we normally fly in - here the
chances of an in-flight breakup or other LOC really _is_ significantly high.
So in this case, a BRS is I think justifiable.
I also saw the video of the Rans breakup - it was an S9 I believe, but I was unaware
the S9 was strong enough to do the wild aerobatics the pilot was actually
doing. Well, obviously it wasn't, was it......
But even so, I'd still have to cross over the line and agree with the Pro BRS side
when it comes to aerobatics in an experimental airplane - here a chute is
arguably a good idea as was made clear in the video.
I still stand by my comments about training and practice, but I think Roger's points
are still well taken here. I have to admit he's right that if the fire is
that bad, yes, you're pretty well screwed at that point anyway ;)
As I said, I still believe the cons outweigh the pros, but that doesn't mean the
pros aren't actually pros. I think they are and in particular for aerobatics
like I said....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310496#310496
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: BRS chute repack time table |
Hi All,
I take no offense to different opinions because that is what makes the world turn
and work as we know and we are all allowed to make our own choices. That's
cool with me.
So guys no harm no foul with me, I'm good.
I guess my point boils down to we are all human and we all make mistakes. I think
we have all done something in our lives that didn't work quite as planned or
we missed seeing something right in front of us. So as long as we are that human
factor and God knows I have missed things then I just would like a good back
up plan in the air sense you can't pull over to the curb and once in a while
landing normally on a road or field isn't an option we are given. We all make
mistakes, this just gives us the second chance to play again and it gives my
family and friends the chance not to have to suffer through a funeral.
So all is good here.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310500#310500
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: BRS chute repack time table |
Lucien, FAR 91.307
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute,
no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember)
may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds=97
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(e) For the purposes of this section, *approved parachute *means=97
(1) A parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a technical
standard order (C'23 series); or
(2) A personnel-carrying military parachute identified by an NAF, AAF, or A
N
drawing number, an AAF order number, or any other military designation or
specification number.
NO BRS meets these requirements, NONE.
Rick
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote:
> lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>
>
> rickofudall wrote:
> > Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence th
at
> wants to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warrant
ing
> their safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an
> emergency happens. ....
> >
> > I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking
> stupid to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The
> original report on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans ow
n
> site, they only make one aircraft that they advertise as being used for
> aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos". The load limit rating of that aircraft is on
ly
> +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic
> category ( +6, -3) but only if it is built per the factory. Was it?
> >
>
>
> Well I do want to defend Roger on this one point, because it's a good one
.
> Aerobatic flight is a much different regime than what we normally fly in
-
> here the chances of an in-flight breakup or other LOC really _is_
> significantly high. So in this case, a BRS is I think justifiable.
>
> I also saw the video of the Rans breakup - it was an S9 I believe, but I
> was unaware the S9 was strong enough to do the wild aerobatics the pilot
was
> actually doing. Well, obviously it wasn't, was it......
>
> But even so, I'd still have to cross over the line and agree with the Pro
> BRS side when it comes to aerobatics in an experimental airplane - here a
> chute is arguably a good idea as was made clear in the video.
>
> I still stand by my comments about training and practice, but I think
> Roger's points are still well taken here. I have to admit he's right that
if
> the fire is that bad, yes, you're pretty well screwed at that point anywa
y
> ;)
>
> As I said, I still believe the cons outweigh the pros, but that doesn't
> mean the pros aren't actually pros. I think they are and in particular fo
r
> aerobatics like I said....
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310496#310496
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unabl
e
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: BRS chute repack time table |
Roger, I sometimes become to strident in my opinions. As I told Dan, I
respect your knowledge of things mechanical and Rotax.
We just disagree about the value of a BRS.
Thanks for all you contribute here and the chance to have this discussion.
If I said anything that was personally disparaging of you, it was without
intent and I offer my apology.
Rick
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I take no offense to different opinions because that is what makes the
> world turn and work as we know and we are all allowed to make our own
> choices. That's cool with me.
> So guys no harm no foul with me, I'm good.
> I guess my point boils down to we are all human and we all make mistakes. I
> think we have all done something in our lives that didn't work quite as
> planned or we missed seeing something right in front of us. So as long as we
> are that human factor and God knows I have missed things then I just would
> like a good back up plan in the air sense you can't pull over to the curb
> and once in a while landing normally on a road or field isn't an option we
> are given. We all make mistakes, this just gives us the second chance to
> play again and it gives my family and friends the chance not to have to
> suffer through a funeral.
>
> So all is good here.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310500#310500
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: BRS chute repack time table |
Dan, You have put your finger exactly on the problem as I see it. Roger is a
great guy, I value his knowledge of things mechanical and Rotax. In that I
do not believe we have a difference. I just don't believe that a BRS is good
for anything other than getting past your wife's/husband's/SO's objections
to flying. Beyond that they are just an expensive lump and I think the money
is better spent on training and knowledge.
Rick
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com
> wrote:
> Richard,
> You call yourself a relic...that is not quite the word I had in mind. We
> all have our opinions and there is no reason to slam folks for expressing
> them. Roger has earned the respect of many on this list as a
> professional...learn what that means and act accordingly.
> Dan
> Mesa
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
>
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Sun, August 29, 2010 7:10:22 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: BRS chute repack time table
>
> Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence that
> wants to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warranting
> their safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an
> emergency happens. This is the same side of the fence that has the people
> who buy lotto tickets as their personal retirement plan.
> Unfortunately we don't have any data on those accidents you quote.
> Did the Zenith pilot do a poor preflight? Did the builder of the airplane
> substitute sub standard material into his airplane? Was it overloaded. Was
> it one of the 601's that were built so piss poor by the manufacturer, AMD,
> that the FAA had to step in? I know of one Zenith crash that killed the
> mother and father of the owner. He was repeatedly warned of the problems
> with his aircraft and chose to ignore them. Yes, it's a horrible price to
> pay, but what does anyone expect when deliberate stupidity takes the pilot
> seat?
> I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking
> stupid to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The
> original report on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans own
> site, they only make one aircraft that they advertise as being used for
> aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos". The load limit rating of that aircraft is only
> +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic
> category ( +6, -3) but only if it is built per the factory. Was it?
> Your near miss experience. What did you do about it? Confront the pilot?
> Notify the FAA? Anything but grumble?
> In the end all we can do is disagree. Perhaps I'm just a relic. A relic of
> a different time when professionalism, personal responsibility, and training
> were the requirements for aviation, not relying on a "get out of jail free"
> card when it comes to my personal safety.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and safe as the operator.
>> The rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a solid propellant and if it's
>> that bad a fire your toast any way so that isn't a real consideration. When
>> to use it isn't about practice, but education on when and how to use it. You
>> can practice your muscle memory on grabbing the handle in case of a true
>> emergency. Plus nothing else to practice sense you have nothing to do, but
>> float to the ground. No accidental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of
>> pull to activate it. Plus the handle can come out of the socket about an
>> inch before the cable goes taught. You have to tell the families of the
>> Zenith (6) aircraft that had wing failure that they weren't a good idea or
>> the other saves they have actually had around the world. I bet everyone of
>> those Zenith pilots were thinking nothing wrong with my plane. Tell it to
>> the pilot just recently at that air show that lost a wing and floated safely
>> to the ground. W!
>> hat about the other mornon that runs into you while you are minding you
>> own business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install something. Part
>> failure in experimental's is a big cause of failures.
>> I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by
>> your hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooked
>> something. What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old saying that
>> it can't hurt us.
>> Your right that you'll never need it, until that one time and no one
>> anywhere can predict that. I came within 50' of a midair two years ago from
>> an idiot not using his radio and trying to cut in front of two planes
>> already in the pattern. To me there are no cons only pros and that view
>> point comes from research and education and no myths, but facts.
>> As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many thousands of times I have
>> heard, "Well that has never happened to me before". Wish I had a dollar for
>> each time I heard that statement and every time they said it they dialed
>> 911. Being a victim is easy, keeping from being one takes some fore thought.
>>
>> I know there are two sides of the fence I just want to be on the side that
>> lives when I fall off.
>>
>>
>> --------
>> Roger Lee
>> Tucson, Az.
>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>> Rotax Repair Center
>> 520-574-1080
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310452#310452
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> ngines-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Kolb Mk IIIC
> 582 Gray head
> 4.00 C gearbox
> 3 blade WD
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be
> unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
> - G.K. Chesterton
>
>
> http://www.matronics="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://for========
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: BRS chute repack time table |
Hi Rick and everyone,
Nothing personal here. I'm good if you are. I don't mind debates and discussions
at all. We all learn from constructive discussions and I respect anyones decision
on how they do things. We all get to make our own choices and that's what
America is about.
So off the our next discussion.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310544#310544
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