Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:49 AM - Re: Water in the fuel question (rparigoris)
2. 03:23 AM - Re: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question (Richard Girard)
3. 07:01 AM - Re: Water in the fuel question (lucien)
4. 07:09 AM - Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question (lucien)
5. 07:55 AM - Re: Water in the fuel question (Pete Christensen)
6. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question (Robert C Harrison)
7. 01:41 PM - Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question (Roger Lee)
8. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question (Richard Girard)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Water in the fuel question |
What's thoughts on adding more alcohol to E-10?
I owned a 1948 Cessna 170 for 19 years. It had two fuel tanks on starboard side
and one on port. Thus right wing sat slightly lower (think gear took a slight
set). Anyway it never came from factory with fuel tank sump drains, but some
were early on were added to inboard tanks. The problem was the low point where
drain was, was about 1/16"' higher than the low point.
Bottom line was if water got in tank you couldn't drain it all of it out. I would
first drain port wing, then right away taxi to a spot that raised right wing
and do my preflight, then drain out right wing. Problem was there was small
beads that would get stuck that you could not drain out no matter how long you
let plane sit.
Several times after flying for a few hours the engine would quit, after pumping
carb accelerator like mad and motor would come back to life. Once in ground effect
over the Great South Bay. Not too much fun. It was a little more than a
small gasculator worth of water that would do the deed of having my engine play
silent night.
I began adding Isopropyl alcohol, about 1 pint to starboard wing and 1/2 pint to
port wing if I found any water at all. For most of the time I owned plane it
served me well, never had another.
Now my question about my 914 powered Europa that holds 18 gallons.
When using E-10, if I were going to fly at altitudes over 8 or 9K, found even 1
drop of water in gasculator or sumps, or was going to get fuel colder than when
I purchased it would it, would it be a bad thing to add 1 pint of 100% Isopropyl
alcohol (~.7%) to keep that water in suspension?
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311783#311783
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
Robert, Per the 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
'- CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
airbox, according to the requirements and release of
BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
Pressure differences between intake pressure and
pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
Take Care,
Rick Girard
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>w
rote:
> Hi! Richard.
>
> The symptoms of the Jabiru incident you publish here remind me of a
> situation I had when I was test running mine (before I changed to a Rotax
914!)
>
> There is a tiny brass nipple on the carb neck ( seeming by it=99s a
ppearance
> to call for a pipe to be attached ) there was no mention of this nipple i
n
> the engine installation manual.
>
> It looks like a carb float chamber overflow nipple. I reasoned therefore
> that should fuel flow from it be likely then it should be directed into a
> =9Ccatch bottle=9D so I put the pipe end into my oil breather
separation bottle.
> (later I think Jabiru issued an instruction that it was a fuel bowl
> pressure stabilizing pipe and it should be directed into the carb intake
> air filter after the filter / but before the carb intake.)
>
> To continue ..my engine ran ok except I did get some oil spatter
from the
> oil catcher bottle and so put a loose fitting rag into the bottle neck.(
the
> amount of oil present in the bottle was minimal but I just may have, whil
st
> stuffing the rag into the neck, pushed the little pipe end below the oil
> surface.)
>
> The net result was on start up the engine ran rough and (unbeknown to me
> smoked like a factory chimney for some time since I was working alone
> outside the hangar ) I could not get a smooth running engine, someone
> arrived and accused me of running up inside the hangar almost
> simultaneously I had oil cover my screen from the engine compartment.
>
> On stopping and further investigating I had massive fuel dilution to the
> engine oil and the level was way over the top filling the breather bottle
> to overflowing.
>
> I sat and did a lot of head scratching and traced the sequence of events
to
> my stopping off the breather bottle with the rag. I removed the rag and t
he
> pipe, changed the engine oil and the engine started flawlessly. As I said
> above I eventually ran the pipe to new instructions.
>
> If the unfortunate pilot had a similar installation and for some reason h
is
> pressure balance pipe had been installed into the oil breather catch bott
le
> the same scenario would prevail. Why should the oil level in the bottle
> suddenly increase? Well I discovered that the engine breather pipe was
> attached to the neck of the oil filler/dip stick assembly and on filling
> /top up of engine oil some would run down the breather pipe into the
=9Ccatch=9D
> bottle! So a simple top up of engine oil could have commenced the
> sequence of events listed above.
>
> Perhaps you would see that this info gets to the relevant authorities as
an
> unbiased contribution which if circulated will probably save further
> incidents.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard
> Girard
> *Sent:* 08 September 2010 03:48
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
>
>
> Something else to look for when doing any carb checks.
>
>
> https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
>
>
> <https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf>Rick
> Girard
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> The answer:
>
> Well this question is a little harder than others that are spelled out we
ll
> in the manuals. This one isn't as clear cut in black and white print and
> some Rotax instructors teach it a little differently from what I have see
n.
> The Rotax manual doesn't really state where the 200 hr. inspection ends a
nd
> where a rebuild starts.
>
> The 200 hr. is not the same as a rebuild. The 200 hr. is just what it say
s,
> an inspection only and no parts replacement except maybe the carb socket,
> floats or diaphragm and those few minor visible parts if necessary. You n
eed
> only to check the carb socket for cracks, carb diaphragm for splitting, t
he
> bowl and the float level. Flush with a carb cleaner for any dirt and do a
> pressure test. That's it.
> That's pretty much all the inspection covers. It does not require all the
> parts to be replaced.
>
> In a rebuild you replace all the parts internally and the 200 hr. is main
ly
> a look and clean as need be on exposed parts. If you disturb any of the "
O"
> rings they should be replaced and that starts into the carb rebuild side,
> which Line maint. can't do. The carb rebuild is removing and replacing pa
rts
> within the carb. We just went over all this with Eric Tucker in the updat
e
> class. I also just got off the phone with Jeremy McGregor of CPS in
> California about this and he confirmed with me about both items. We ask w
hy
> the carb rebuild couldn't be moved to the Line maint. section, but Rotax
> refuses because carb rebuilds are done so infrequently by individuals tha
t
> Rotax wants to make sure the people preforming a rebuild has the most
> current training and continued experience. Yes, you can get in trouble by
> doing some wrong things to the carb or not doing them.
> Bottom line is Line Maint. can do a 200 hr. inspection, but you have to b
e
> Heavy Maint. rated to do a carb rebuild.
>
> It would be nice if every instructor were on the same page, but we all kn
ow
> that this doesn't always happen. Sometimes the lines get a little blurred
.
>
>
> I know there are some of the Experimental people that have done carb
> rebuilds, but this isn't to be done for the SLSA crowd.
>
> Don't shoot the messenger here (no flaming arrows or tracer ammunition) I
> learned it in school, too.
>
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754
>
>
> ==========
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> le, List Admin.
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> ==========
>
>
> --
>
> Zulu Delta
>
> Kolb Mk IIIC
>
> 582 Gray head
>
> 4.00 C gearbox
>
> 3 blade WD
>
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
>
> It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be
> unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
>
> - G.K. Chesterton
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * - The RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -*
>
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===========
===========
===========
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> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unabl
e
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Water in the fuel question |
Float Flyr wrote:
> Lucien the reason to worry a bit about running E10 are:
> The tests that Rotax did were done with factory fresh E-10 I doubt there is
> a station outside Nevada that can provide that fuel just because it absorbs
> moisture right out of the air.
> The tests that Rotax did only apply to the engine. I doubt the SB covers
> tanks, fuel lines or the pumps.
>
> Basically all they said is E-10 ( in it's pure state) won't croak your
> engine. Then again if E-10 contaminated with moisture starts to dissolve
> the white metal of the carbs then they sell more parts.
>
> Noel
>
> --
Ok, thanks Noel. Hard to argue with that....
And it is true that most of the problems I've heard about from switching to E10
had to do with the fuel system (I think). I.e. ethanol is a solvent and when
suddenly introduced, breaks up any scum that was already there and plugs up the
works, etc.....
The only other hazard I've heard about is in the carbs, where the float needle
is tipped with Viton. Someone one here said at one time that Viton had only marginal
resistence to ethanol?
When I do run E10, I do significantly shorten the amount of time I let the gas
sit in the tank or let the engine sit without running at least once up to operating
temperature. Pretty much no longer than a week for either.
Other than that, if the choice is between E10 and 100LL, I strongly prefer E10
as the hazards there for the engine long-term are much less than from the lead
in 100LL.
Sure hope that unleaded avgas alternative to 100LL shows up soon ;)
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311803#311803
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| Subject: | Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
rickofudall wrote:
> Robert, Per the 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
>
> CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
> routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
> airbox, according to the requirements and release of
> BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
> be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
> Pressure differences between intake pressure and
> pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
> engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
>
> Take Care,
> Rick Girard
>
Actually, I once got into an ugly fight on another list with a nutcase (or two,
can't remember) who didn't believe this handling of the vent lines was actually
spelled out in the manual. They thought my mod to route them into my air cleaners
was some kind of unauthorized modification.
Nevertheless, this is actually a very little-known requirement (the vent lines
have to be at the same atmospheric pressure as the intakes essentially). Most
of the time, you don't see the effects too drastically at sea level; the lines
are just routed down the sides of the carbs and the carbs work well enough.
But in my case, where I fly at 7000' to 10,000' MSL all the time, the effect of
that was very noticeable, with a significant rich-running of the carbs. When
I routed the lines inside my air filters to satisfy this requirement (best I could
;)), the EGTS's all went up almost 100F back to a mostly-normal range.
Strange but true....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311804#311804
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| Subject: | Re: Water in the fuel question |
Yes Noel, I plan to do that then I can have a snoot before I take off. ;>)
Pete
On 9/7/2010 8:51 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Pete have you considered distilling the water eth mixture to make fuel
> for a table alcohol burner. They put something into the alcohol to
> make it unpalatable even with distillation. Pure eth added to the gas
> of a so called flex fuel vehicle may make it run more efficiently. If
> I remember my high school chemistry correctly ethanol distils off at
> around 78.5C. You can even get solar heaters to run the still!
> Apparently quantities of alcohol less than a gallon are legal to make
> in the U.S..
>
> Noel
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Pete Christensen
> *Sent:* September 7, 2010 11:43 AM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Water in the fuel question
>
> Here is my experience with removing ethanol from gasoline.
>
> In the North Austin, Texas area I have found no source for gasoline
> without ethanol. The nearest I have found is more than an hours drive
> away without any nearby airport. I could load up my van with 5-gallon
> cans, but buying the cans and the cost of time and fuel for my van
> would make that difficult.
>
> I have read everything I can on the subject on the Internet and have
> corresponded with a few of you online.
>
> Here is what I came up with. Last week I bought a 6-1/2 gallon carboy
> used for making beer. I put 1 quart of water in the carboy and marked
> a line at the top of the water. I then poured 5-1/2 gallons of
> high-test gasohol into the jug. The pouring action stimulates the
> ethanol to begin separation from the mix. After awhile the
> water-ethanol has separated from the mix and I mark a new line that
> indicates the new level of the bottom of cleaned gasoline. I use a
> siphon to siphon the cleaned gasoline off the top of the water/ethanol
> leaving a gallon or so of good gas to avoid siphoning up any water.
> (Note I do NOT pour the out this gas/water/alcohol from the jug.) I
> can continue pouring gasohol into the carboy and the process starts
> all over again. After a gallon or two of water/ethanol builds up, I
> siphon the water/ethanol from the bottom of the jug and add a little
> more water.
>
> I pour this cleaned gas into my plane through a Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter
> Funnel, which is supposed to remove any remaining water. (I found no
> detectable water in the filter after pouring 10 gallons)
>
> I have run this so far about 50/50 with avgas I had in my tank.
>
> I have only flown the one time a couple days ago for more than an hour
> with no problems. Time will tell if problems develop.
>
> I am NOT endorsing this process for others but only describing what I
> am doing.
>
> Pete
>
> Kitfox III SN 1000
>
> 912
>
> On 9/6/2010 7:56 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Roger:
>
> Too many questions :-)
>
> 1 - 100LL should have the least amount of contaminates due to
> the SUPPOSED quality control.
>
> 2 - 100LL may have more water due to the DIFFERENT types of storage
> and the age of the tanks [above ground & below ground].
>
> 3 - 100LL may have more water due to the quantity of fuel being
> sold... Ever notice the airports will NEVER tell you
> how many gallons they sell a week.
>
> 4 - Some planes have much more of a problem with water than others. I
> have quite a few hours in a Piper Cherokee and Comanche as well as a
> RV6 and all three of them have the flush mounted gas caps. And all of
> them have water in the tanks.
>
> I would LQQK first and blame first the gas cap before blaming the
> 100LL. It is a well know trick to put a patch of plastic Velcro On
> top of the gas cap and the other half on the inside of a 1 Lb coffee
> can lid. This does a lot to keep water out.
>
> ------------------------- AutoGas -------------------
>
> 5 - MoGas - Has it own problems - The first being The Cheep Ass -
> Money Grubbing - Low Life - Non-English speaking owners that put water
> into their tanks to cut price during Gas Wars. There was a gas
> station in my area that was closed by the Bureau of Weights & Measures
> for just that reason about one year after being closed because of
> illegal pumps (shorting the public). The next issue was water in the gas.
>
> 6 - MoGas - Probably does have higher levels of contaminates due to
> lower quality control of EVERYTHING from octant to transportation,
> storage and dispensing.
>
> 7 - MoGas - Should have lower contaminates due to the higher turn-over.
>
> 8 - MoGas - In my area the wise old government made it a requirement
> that ALL in-ground-tanks must be a fiberglass or plastic composition.
> This came to light when the wise old government made it a requirement
> that MTBE be used to reduce pollutant at the un-tested request of the
> EPA. The MTBE found all the small holes in the gas tanks
> and polluted the ground waters as well as making pump-jockeys sick.
> Now when theses pump-jockey's started reporting to hospitals for
> treatment the CDC (Center for Disease Control) was first contacted
> because of the wide spread and similarity of cases.
> Some financial saving that was!
>
> 9 - MoGas - and who else other than the wise old government made it a
> requirement in my area NJ-NY that ethanol be added to the gas. 10%
> less HP, 10% Less fuel economy and 100% more problems. Just ask the
> boating industry in coastal ares that ethanol is suppled.
>
> OK! Enough - But, as Roger mentioned water is NOT absorbed. It IS
> held in SUSPENSION. And it takes about 15 minutes for water to come
> out of suspension, IF there is no movement. So, what does that tell
> you.... Checking your freshly filled tanks does not show if there is
> water in your gas. Of course, if there is enough water you sure will
> see it.
>
> AND... Some one mentioned 'solution' it is NOT a solution, it is
> a suspension. There is NO chemical combining of water and gas.
> The ethanol IS in solution the water is in suspension.
> The ethanol in solution is a mixture, forming a total different compound.
>
> Now, water can be a good thing... There is a way of ethanol removal
> from gas.
>
> WATER - As someone did mention ethanol is hygroscopic. That means the
> ethanol will adsorb water. So...
>
> Lets say you have a gas with 10% ethanol...
>
> ADD 10% of the gas volume in water... 10 Gal Gas = 1 Gal water.
>
> Shake it up...
>
> Let it stand for 1 hour...
>
> From the bottom of the container drain off the water... Which
> is heavier than the gas/ethanol mixture...
>
> Which will have the Water with the ethanol attached to it.
>
> Works in the lab all the time.
>
> OK, sorry.... this is the end.
>
> Barry
>
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com
> <mailto:ssadiver1@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> <ssadiver1@yahoo.com <mailto:ssadiver1@yahoo.com>>
>
> Hi Guys,,
>
> Question:
>
> Which fuel are you more likely to see water in, 100LL or our present
> day 91 Oct when you catch your sample down at the gascolator? Why?
>
> p.s.
> If you find it in one verses the other what should yo do?
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311301#311301
>
>
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> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
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> ==========
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> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
Yes Rick I accept what ROTAX SAY but the accident was to a Jabiru 3300
six
cylinder and the Jabiru Installation Manual at my time made no comment
about
the pressure balance pipe, and it's location seemed to suggest it was a
fuel
overflow pipe.
My original comments prevail and the accident investigation made no
indications as to the pressure balance pipe or where it was routed or
terminated.?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa originally with Jabiru 3300 :.Now with Rotax
914.
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard
Girard
Sent: 08 September 2010 11:17
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
Robert, Per the 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
=81 CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
airbox, according to the requirements and release of
BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
Pressure differences between intake pressure and
pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
Take Care,
Rick Girard
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Robert C Harrison
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
Hi! Richard.
The symptoms of the Jabiru incident you publish here remind me of a
situation I had when I was test running mine (before I changed to a
Rotax
914!)
There is a tiny brass nipple on the carb neck ( seeming by it's
appearance
to call for a pipe to be attached ) there was no mention of this nipple
in
the engine installation manual.
It looks like a carb float chamber overflow nipple. I reasoned therefore
that should fuel flow from it be likely then it should be directed into
a
"catch bottle" so I put the pipe end into my oil breather separation
bottle.
(later I think Jabiru issued an instruction that it was a fuel bowl
pressure
stabilizing pipe and it should be directed into the carb intake air
filter
after the filter / but before the carb intake.)
To continue :..my engine ran ok except I did get some oil spatter from
the
oil catcher bottle and so put a loose fitting rag into the bottle neck.(
the amount of oil present in the bottle was minimal but I just may have,
whilst stuffing the rag into the neck, pushed the little pipe end below
the
oil surface.)
The net result was on start up the engine ran rough and (unbeknown to me
smoked like a factory chimney for some time since I was working alone
outside the hangar ) I could not get a smooth running engine, someone
arrived and accused me of running up inside the hangar almost
simultaneously I had oil cover my screen from the engine compartment.
On stopping and further investigating I had massive fuel dilution to the
engine oil and the level was way over the top filling the breather
bottle
to overflowing.
I sat and did a lot of head scratching and traced the sequence of events
to
my stopping off the breather bottle with the rag. I removed the rag and
the
pipe, changed the engine oil and the engine started flawlessly. As I
said
above I eventually ran the pipe to new instructions.
If the unfortunate pilot had a similar installation and for some reason
his
pressure balance pipe had been installed into the oil breather catch
bottle
the same scenario would prevail. Why should the oil level in the bottle
suddenly increase? Well I discovered that the engine breather pipe was
attached to the neck of the oil filler/dip stick assembly and on filling
/top up of engine oil some would run down the breather pipe into the
"catch"
bottle! So a simple top up of engine oil could have commenced the
sequence
of events listed above.
Perhaps you would see that this info gets to the relevant authorities as
an
unbiased contribution which if circulated will probably save further
incidents.
Best regards
Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG.
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard
Girard
Sent: 08 September 2010 03:48
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
Something else to look for when doing any carb checks.
<https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf>
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
<https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf>
Rick
Girard
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
<ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Hi All,
The answer:
Well this question is a little harder than others that are spelled out
well
in the manuals. This one isn't as clear cut in black and white print and
some Rotax instructors teach it a little differently from what I have
seen.
The Rotax manual doesn't really state where the 200 hr. inspection ends
and
where a rebuild starts.
The 200 hr. is not the same as a rebuild. The 200 hr. is just what it
says,
an inspection only and no parts replacement except maybe the carb
socket,
floats or diaphragm and those few minor visible parts if necessary. You
need
only to check the carb socket for cracks, carb diaphragm for splitting,
the
bowl and the float level. Flush with a carb cleaner for any dirt and do
a
pressure test. That's it.
That's pretty much all the inspection covers. It does not require all
the
parts to be replaced.
In a rebuild you replace all the parts internally and the 200 hr. is
mainly
a look and clean as need be on exposed parts. If you disturb any of the
"O"
rings they should be replaced and that starts into the carb rebuild
side,
which Line maint. can't do. The carb rebuild is removing and replacing
parts
within the carb. We just went over all this with Eric Tucker in the
update
class. I also just got off the phone with Jeremy McGregor of CPS in
California about this and he confirmed with me about both items. We ask
why
the carb rebuild couldn't be moved to the Line maint. section, but Rotax
refuses because carb rebuilds are done so infrequently by individuals
that
Rotax wants to make sure the people preforming a rebuild has the most
current training and continued experience. Yes, you can get in trouble
by
doing some wrong things to the carb or not doing them.
Bottom line is Line Maint. can do a 200 hr. inspection, but you have to
be
Heavy Maint. rated to do a carb rebuild.
It would be nice if every instructor were on the same page, but we all
know
that this doesn't always happen. Sometimes the lines get a little
blurred.
I know there are some of the Experimental people that have done carb
rebuilds, but this isn't to be done for the SLSA crowd.
Don't shoot the messenger here (no flaming arrows or tracer ammunition)
I
learned it in school, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754
-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be
unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
- The RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
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ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be
unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
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| Subject: | Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
Hi Guys,
Don't use the "Quote" tab at the top of each post. This just adds to the length
of the your post and makes reading and scrolling through the thread very long.
How about using the "Post Reply" tab at the top or the bottom of the page. It won't
quote the entire thread every time and then make everyone read through very
long post.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311860#311860
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
Robert, My reason for posting the information about the Jabby carb corrosio
n
was that the corrosion is a problem common to all Bing carbs. I posted the
info from the Rotax Installation Manual following your post about the carb
venting because this is something Rotax has already addressed and this is
the Rotax Engine forum. Issues with Jabiru installations should be addresse
d
to either the factory or their distributors and posted to the Jabiru Engine
forum.
Rick Girard
2010/9/8 Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
> Yes Rick I accept what ROTAX SAY but the accident was to a Jabiru 3300
> six cylinder and the Jabiru Installation Manual at my time made no commen
t
> about the pressure balance pipe, and it's location seemed to suggest it w
as
> a fuel overflow pipe.
>
> My original comments prevail and the accident investigation made no
> indications as to the pressure balance pipe or where it was routed or
> terminated.?
>
> Regards
>
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa originally with Jabiru 3300 ....Now with Rotax
914.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard
> Girard
> *Sent:* 08 September 2010 11:17
>
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
>
>
> Robert, Per the 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
>
>
> =94 CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
>
> routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
>
> airbox, according to the requirements and release of
>
> BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
>
> be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
>
> Pressure differences between intake pressure and
>
> pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
>
> engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
>
>
> Take Care,
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk
>
> wrote:
>
> Hi! Richard.
>
> The symptoms of the Jabiru incident you publish here remind me of a
> situation I had when I was test running mine (before I changed to a Rotax
> 914!)
>
> There is a tiny brass nipple on the carb neck ( seeming by it's appearanc
e
> to call for a pipe to be attached ) there was no mention of this nipple i
n
> the engine installation manual.
>
> It looks like a carb float chamber overflow nipple. I reasoned therefore
> that should fuel flow from it be likely then it should be directed into a
> "catch bottle" so I put the pipe end into my oil breather separation
> bottle. (later I think Jabiru issued an instruction that it was a fuel b
owl
> pressure stabilizing pipe and it should be directed into the carb intake
air
> filter after the filter / but before the carb intake.)
>
> To continue .....my engine ran ok except I did get some oil spatter from
the
> oil catcher bottle and so put a loose fitting rag into the bottle neck.(
> the amount of oil present in the bottle was minimal but I just may have,
> whilst stuffing the rag into the neck, pushed the little pipe end below t
he
> oil surface.)
>
> The net result was on start up the engine ran rough and (unbeknown to me
> smoked like a factory chimney for some time since I was working alone
> outside the hangar ) I could not get a smooth running engine, someone
> arrived and accused me of running up inside the hangar almost
> simultaneously I had oil cover my screen from the engine compartment.
>
> On stopping and further investigating I had massive fuel dilution to the
> engine oil and the level was way over the top filling the breather bottle
> to overflowing.
>
> I sat and did a lot of head scratching and traced the sequence of events
to
> my stopping off the breather bottle with the rag. I removed the rag and t
he
> pipe, changed the engine oil and the engine started flawlessly. As I said
> above I eventually ran the pipe to new instructions.
>
> If the unfortunate pilot had a similar installation and for some reason h
is
> pressure balance pipe had been installed into the oil breather catch bott
le
> the same scenario would prevail. Why should the oil level in the bottle
> suddenly increase? Well I discovered that the engine breather pipe was
> attached to the neck of the oil filler/dip stick assembly and on filling
> /top up of engine oil some would run down the breather pipe into the "cat
ch"
> bottle! So a simple top up of engine oil could have commenced the sequen
ce
> of events listed above.
>
> Perhaps you would see that this info gets to the relevant authorities as
an
> unbiased contribution which if circulated will probably save further
> incidents.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard
> Girard
> *Sent:* 08 September 2010 03:48
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
>
>
> Something else to look for when doing any carb checks.
>
>
> https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
>
>
> <https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf>Rick
> Girard
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> The answer:
>
> Well this question is a little harder than others that are spelled out we
ll
> in the manuals. This one isn't as clear cut in black and white print and
> some Rotax instructors teach it a little differently from what I have see
n.
> The Rotax manual doesn't really state where the 200 hr. inspection ends a
nd
> where a rebuild starts.
>
> The 200 hr. is not the same as a rebuild. The 200 hr. is just what it say
s,
> an inspection only and no parts replacement except maybe the carb socket,
> floats or diaphragm and those few minor visible parts if necessary. You n
eed
> only to check the carb socket for cracks, carb diaphragm for splitting, t
he
> bowl and the float level. Flush with a carb cleaner for any dirt and do a
> pressure test. That's it.
> That's pretty much all the inspection covers. It does not require all the
> parts to be replaced.
>
> In a rebuild you replace all the parts internally and the 200 hr. is main
ly
> a look and clean as need be on exposed parts. If you disturb any of the "
O"
> rings they should be replaced and that starts into the carb rebuild side,
> which Line maint. can't do. The carb rebuild is removing and replacing pa
rts
> within the carb. We just went over all this with Eric Tucker in the updat
e
> class. I also just got off the phone with Jeremy McGregor of CPS in
> California about this and he confirmed with me about both items. We ask w
hy
> the carb rebuild couldn't be moved to the Line maint. section, but Rotax
> refuses because carb rebuilds are done so infrequently by individuals tha
t
> Rotax wants to make sure the people preforming a rebuild has the most
> current training and continued experience. Yes, you can get in trouble by
> doing some wrong things to the carb or not doing them.
> Bottom line is Line Maint. can do a 200 hr. inspection, but you have to b
e
> Heavy Maint. rated to do a carb rebuild.
>
> It would be nice if every instructor were on the same page, but we all kn
ow
> that this doesn't always happen. Sometimes the lines get a little blurred
.
>
>
> I know there are some of the Experimental people that have done carb
> rebuilds, but this isn't to be done for the SLSA crowd.
>
> Don't shoot the messenger here (no flaming arrows or tracer ammunition) I
> learned it in school, too.
>
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754
>
>
> ==========
> -List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
>
> Zulu Delta
>
> Kolb Mk IIIC
>
> 582 Gray head
>
> 4.00 C gearbox
>
> 3 blade WD
>
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
>
> It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be
> unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
>
> - G.K. Chesterton
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * - The RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -*
>
> *--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -*
>
> * - List Contribution Web Site -*
>
> * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-L
ist*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
>
> --
>
> Zulu Delta
>
> Kolb Mk IIIC
>
> 582 Gray head
>
> 4.00 C gearbox
>
> 3 blade WD
>
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
>
> It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be
> unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
>
> - G.K. Chesterton
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * - The RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> **
>
> * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -*
>
> * - List Contribution Web Site -*
>
> * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unabl
e
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
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