Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:51 AM - Re: AMPS? (rparigoris)
2. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: AMPS? (FLYaDIVE)
3. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: AMPS? (FLYaDIVE)
4. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: AMPS? (Noel Loveys)
5. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: AMPS? (Noel Loveys)
6. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: AMPS? (Noel Loveys)
7. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: AMPS? (Dan Billingsley)
Message 1
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Hi Noel
"I'm not trying to be cute here but I do have to ask what are high
performance moder electrics? Do you mean modular or motor?"
I'm trying to be cute here, I was referring to a "modular" motor propulsion units!
Serious, I committed a typo, it was supposed to be "model" electrics.
I designed what I call "Quick Sticks". I love flying wings, and can change out
modular propulsion units in seconds. I can go from a lightweight slope soarer,
to a mild powered flying machine with great duration to a downright "beast",
direct drive for speed and redrive for climb and efficiency.
I garbage pick CF arrows form the local sporting goods store that hit the cinder
block wall, wrap them with Spectra and thin CA the Spectra in place and mount
batteries, ESC (Electronic speed controller) with various configurations of
motors, transmissions and props. Many tweaked to a very nice mix of light yet
quite effective.
Here in the middle of page on red hood of car is some of my earlier examples:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28737
I have many an hour tweaking, measuring and tweaking some more.
The initial flying wing was a Zagi THL. It was designed to come in at 10 oz. I
of course had to make a nice light one to slope in very calm conditions that came
in under 8 oz! Quick Sticks installed can give me an all up weight of about
18 oz to 3+1/2 pounds.
Now to explore the other end, I took a bungee and a number of steel pipes. I kept
on increasing weight and launching till I got to 4+1/2 pounds! The wings were
flexing a bit too much but the thing flew great! I fabricated a wing that was
stronger and added 16 zapped CP1700 cells that were at their absolute limit
of dumping amps connected to an Aveox 3/4 horse power motor with 4.4 to 1 planetary
reduction drive and 14.5" x 14 hand laid up RF prop. Egads, over 100mph
and absolute pure vertical out of sight in seconds. I use a double bungee to
launch it. Landing was a bit of a problem where even with 3 degrees washout it
would tip stall sometimes and stall spin. No problem, I built another wing with
less wing area (still 4 foot span) higher aspect ratio and thinner, and increased
weight to 5 pounds! however I installed articulatable NASA lead edge droop
where I could select 30 degrees positive and 5 degrees negative. 20 degrees
drags things up but turns it into a pussy cat, negative 5 degrees increases
speed (probably negates washout) but you do not want to stall it:
See bout 1/2 way down page
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27305&g2_page=1
BTW you can see how I am using my Quick Stick technology as a total loss battery
for my Europa with Rotax 914 as an emergency way to run a fuel pump, could probably
even start the 914. Even though it is only 2.2 pounds, It will handle
a 70 amp discharge once in a while without breaking too much of a sweat, I wouldn't
do it as a habit, but if I was trying to make a mid air restart after soaring
and either the motor got a little cold or my main battery failed, putting
this 15+ volt nominal battery in parallel with my main battery would probably
do good things for starting. If I had the altitude and my main battery (or connection)
somehow failed, I would probably use my total loss to do an air restart,
even though I don't like spinning a cold engine so fast right away:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27305&g2_page=1
Also coming out of Quick Stick technology is cooling aid for my Rotax 914 install
on my Europa XS. I have a folder that will have the ability to run forward
with plenty of pitch speed to aid cooling of oil and coolant radiators, but also
the ability to run in reverse to help warm up the fluids, in flight start after
soaring will sure be a good time, and i am thinking it may even add a little
speed in cruise, a pseude cowl flap if you will. I am also installing two
speed 400s hidden behind cowl gills. The Europa XS monowheel suffers from overheating
on ground and during climb in hot weather. this is my attempt at keeping
things cool:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28737
Here is schematic for cooling fans:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=79814
Using Eric Jones servo controller (knob in panel insert) to control a ESC, and
a DPTT switch with a reverse red LED and a blue forward LED:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81189
BTW I am using an aft mounted Odyssed PC545 battery to crank my Rotax 914 with
new style starter, using Eric Jones CCA #4 wire crimped then soldered with 2%
silver solder from McMaster Carr with a lower melting point compared to 63-37
or 60-40. Any copper on the airplane gets plated with cool amp (silver plating
right in place):
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710&g2_page=1
Boy talking about blabbing!
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314754#314754
Message 2
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*Noel:*
*
*
*Good points - I was thinking about some of them as I was writing you. I'm
sure there are hundreds of issues I do not know about, not having been in a
float plane.*
*
*
*And I guess when the weather gets so cold that you have to worry about an
APU for starting - You also have to start worrying about ICE on the lake.
;-)*
*
*
*Barry*
*
*
*
*
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Barry:
>
>
> There are a few reasons why I wouldn=92t use a ground power connector. F
irst
> is there are no brakes on a float plane. It would work great if I had
> someone else to remove the connector after starting the engine. Tying th
e
> tail is with a slip knot is an option but then I would still have to have
> the engine running with no one in the cockpit... not the best idea.
> Finally is of course the possibility of damaging the ground battery pack
if
> the connector happened to fall in the drink.
>
>
> Wheel planes are another quintal of fish! There are chocks to hold them
in
> place and usually a few people to remove the connector and of course it
> gives you plenty of power for those cold morning starts without having to
> worry about carrying the batteries aloft.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* October 3, 2010 2:56 PM
>
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?
>
>
> Hello Noel:
>
>
> I really like your idea of a Ground Power Connector, they offer all sorts
> of advantages.
>
> How does being on floats negate the Ground Power Connector?
>
>
> As you know and mentioned, wire run length is a major factor. An AWG of
2
> should do well for short runs of wire and that #2 does have a safety marg
in
> figured in. Going to an AWG of 0 for BOTH POSITIVE & NEGATIVE runs shoul
d
> work VERY well.
>
> I have never use it - But, there have been many reports of using 'welder'
s
> cable', very flexible, abrasion resistance, low resistance and available
at
> welding supply houses. They also have the ring lugs.
>
>
> AND - Gaggle - I know I posted this before but it REALLY is a GREAT TRICK
:
>
> SOLDER the wire to the ring lug ONLY at the end next to the mounting part
> of the ring lug.
>
> Crimp First - Then older. Clean well.
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> Barry:
>
>
> If I read you right you like myself feel the 6Ga. feed wire is a bit on t
he
> light side. I agree if someone was to try to push 100 A through that wir
e
> it wouldn=92t be long before it would heat up and cause even greater
> resistance.
>
>
> What would you think an acceptable gauge for the starter feed wire to be?
> 2Ga. ground straps were mentioned.
>
>
> I=92m almost ready to install the battery in my 912 mod. I think I=92ll
have
> to put the battery behind the seats and that means around an 8=92 run. I
=92m
> seriously considering 0Ga or 00Ga. wire. If I weren=92t on floats I=92d
install
> a ground power connector.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* October 1, 2010 7:28 PM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?
>
>
> Ron & Dan:
>
>
> Here is the math for the information you gave:
>
> 0.6KW = 600 WATTS
>
> 600 WATTS @ 12 VDC (I use 12 V because you are pulling the power from the
> Battery)
>
> I (current) = 600 W / 12 VDC = 50 AMPS But at WHAT TEMP?
>
> Lets also use 8 VDC... Why? Because many starters will turn over at a mu
ch
> lower voltage than 12 VDC to insure starting when the battery is low and
the
> temp too. SOoooo...
>
> I = 600 WATTS / 8 VDC = 75 AMPS But again at WHAT TEMP?
>
>
> I have VERY STRONG reservations to where and how they came up with this
> 0.6KW.
>
> It sounds way - way too low.
>
> I'm betting that current (0.6KW) is a sustained current AFTER the initial
> surge.
>
> I doubt if they used a current probe connected to a digital O-Scope to
> capture the true current draw. Having done amperage checks on small
> lawnmowers, they were pulling 100 Amps on a SUMMER DAY.
>
> Don't go borderline.
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 3:38 PM, rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
> wrote:
>
> rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hi Dan B.
>
> The old style starter draws .6kW.
>
> According to Lockwood, the new style starter draws less amps.
>
> For a quick estimate using 60 amps for old style and 50 amps for new styl
e
> will get you very close to what is probably real draw. Remember this engi
ne
> is not too much over 70 cubic inches, not 200, 320, 360 or larger.
>
> This info I gathered was based on a 914, but would imagine the 912S would
> be very similar.
>
> You can choose a larger resolution and look at starter on the right side:
>
> http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId372&g2_imag
eViewsIndex=1
>
> Note if you run starter for 10 seconds, you should wait 2 minutes for coo
l
> down.
>
> I have a Odyssey PC525 mounted aft in fuse and am using #4 CCA. Others
> using #4 have good success, but #2 wire would be a little better.
>
> I think in your instance if #6 worked before, it will work better with th
e
> HD starter.
>
> The wire I am using is copper clad aluminium. The diameter is larger than
> #4 copper but the resistance is just about the same. I almost took the
> yellow covering off the wire and stripped out strands to make it #5 to sa
ve
> a little weight, then heat shrink Teflon heat shrink over the strands.
> Sounded good, would have saved a little weight, then I realized just how
> much weight it was going to save from my rear pocket and idea was put in
the
> bin.
>
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314349#314349
>
>
> ==========
> -List" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
>
> Barry
>
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-L
ist*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
>
> --
>
> Barry
>
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 3
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Ron:
I also fly R/C, have been doing it since 1972. And I have yet to see a
motor with a variable phase angle where you can change the timing. The
brushes must make contact and that's all there is. Anything else is ...
Well, it IS ____ ! Let the designers handle that WE do not have any control
over it. And personally I prefer Glow & Gas engines. They sound better.
THEY SOUND! ;-)
As for the "BTW on cars it works where on a cold day if you turn on all
loads for a few minutes before starting the the warming up of the battery
compared to the watts used nets to more cranking power."
--- Wait a minute ... Let me put my Hip Boots on. Who is feeding you this
BS?
When you put a battery under cold condition you are loosing between 15% to
33% of the cranking ability. Hey, don't take my word for it LQQK at your
battery and read the CA Vs CCA ratings. NOW, you want some poor person to
turn On their lights and etc., to draw from this already weak battery BEFORE
you try to start! How many ways is that wrong.
1 - If you want to put a load on the battery what better load then JUST
STARTING!
2 - Do you REALLY think a load of 200 to 250 Watts for a "few minutes" is
much of a load to heat a battery? ! ? Ha Ha Ha Heat the battery! I would
rather have a stray cat curl up with the battery than waste the time
and energy trying to heat the battery, by running it down.
3 - Have you worked out how much of a load Lights and a Fan are?
4 - Question: What does a battery store?
5 - How warm do you thing the battery will get? Lets LQQK at the MASS of
the battery - - Forget MASS, let's keep it simple, think of weight... How
heavy is a battery? And at what temperature is this battery 32F, 20F maybe
10F? And how many calories of heat do you think is required
to raise the temperature of this battery by 1 Degree F? Not even 1 Deg C.
6 - Don't forget the LEAD of the battery is a heat sink. And so is the
WATER - whoops ELECTROLYTE.
Still want to heat up the battery before starting?
Put a 100 Watt bulb next to it. And leave it on over night. Over Night that
is how long it takes on a cold night.
GEEEEEEEE I wonder why car companies haven't told the public about this
trick?
Tell your Wife this trick - And when the battery is DEAD - She will go in
the house to get warm and YOU can charge the battery. And DON'T yell at
her, that she did something wrong - Other wise you may need some place to
stay warm. Curl up in the dog house with Fido.
I'm not picking on you Ron, I HATE the internet for what it does in the
WRONG way - It propagates Old Wife's Tails and bull at the speed of an
electron.
In this case Shoot the Messenger that gave you that story.
Barry
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM, rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>wrote:
> rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hi Barry
>
> "It's true that to achieve the same watt output with a lower voltage you
> need to up the amperage, in reality when you lower the voltage going to an
> electric motor the amp draw drops."
>
> If you have a battery or power supply with wires that can keep the lowering
> of voltage and amperage to a minimum, then it's true that if you lower the
> voltage to a motor that is reasonably loaded the amp draw will go up since
> the motor can't spin as fast as if it had higher voltage (within reason as
> far as voltage and load and motor timing).
>
> What I was getting at is that often (VERY OFTEN with high performance moder
> electrics) you may have a battery and wire size that is very close to asking
> max. amps that the battery can offer while maintaining a reasonable voltage.
> If you ask any more amps it will begin to give up a lot of voltage and not
> offer up any more amps. If you have long thin wires that only drop voltage
> further, then heat the wires up and drop voltage even further, often you are
> asking more amps from the battery that it can put out. The scenario is the
> battery is huffing and puffing harder and harder but begins dropping amp
> output and voltage, and the wires are warming up and making things worst.
> Net is if you see too little voltage at a running loaded motor (again within
> reason and you calculated what you are looking for), it probably means you
> have a battery that has not enough ability to dump amps and keep the voltage
> up, and or the wires are creating too much resistance and dropping voltage.
> In this scenario of marginal battery and wires, lets put it in the cold
> where the battery is offering up even less performance and the motor is
> offering up more resistance to turning and we measure a lower voltage going
> to the motor, t!
> he motor will just plain not be seeing very many amps going to it compared
> to a warm battery and engine.
>
> Again what really matters to me is when it's cold out I can start my bird.
>
> BTW on cars it works where on a cold day if you turn on all loads for a few
> minutes before starting the the warming up of the battery compared to the
> watts used nets to more cranking power.
>
> Also with electric motors timing is every bit as important as on IC motors.
> You want to select proper advance for what you are doing. You never want to
> run a brushed motor retarded from neutral. Amp draw will go way up and brush
> life and power output way down. Select too much advance for a highly loaded
> motor and if you can provide enough amps you will get a little more power
> output, but often the battery/wires net to less power and you are better off
> running closer to a neutral timing. I wouldn't be too surprised if someone
> tried a few motors and optimized timing for our 91Xs to get the high output
> version that draws less amps than the original. I wouldn't be too surprised
> if the original motor wouldn't benefit a lot by optimized timing, but then
> again it may not be too easy to adjust.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314525#314525
>
>
--
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 4
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Thanks Ron that was most interesting.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigoris
Sent: October 5, 2010 6:19 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hi Noel
"I'm not trying to be cute here but I do have to ask what are high
performance moder electrics? Do you mean modular or motor?"
I'm trying to be cute here, I was referring to a "modular" motor propulsion
units!
Serious, I committed a typo, it was supposed to be "model" electrics.
I designed what I call "Quick Sticks". I love flying wings, and can change
out modular propulsion units in seconds. I can go from a lightweight slope
soarer, to a mild powered flying machine with great duration to a downright
"beast", direct drive for speed and redrive for climb and efficiency.
I garbage pick CF arrows form the local sporting goods store that hit the
cinder block wall, wrap them with Spectra and thin CA the Spectra in place
and mount batteries, ESC (Electronic speed controller) with various
configurations of motors, transmissions and props. Many tweaked to a very
nice mix of light yet quite effective.
Here in the middle of page on red hood of car is some of my earlier
examples:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28737
I have many an hour tweaking, measuring and tweaking some more.
The initial flying wing was a Zagi THL. It was designed to come in at 10 oz.
I of course had to make a nice light one to slope in very calm conditions
that came in under 8 oz! Quick Sticks installed can give me an all up weight
of about 18 oz to 3+1/2 pounds.
Now to explore the other end, I took a bungee and a number of steel pipes. I
kept on increasing weight and launching till I got to 4+1/2 pounds! The
wings were flexing a bit too much but the thing flew great! I fabricated a
wing that was stronger and added 16 zapped CP1700 cells that were at their
absolute limit of dumping amps connected to an Aveox 3/4 horse power motor
with 4.4 to 1 planetary reduction drive and 14.5" x 14 hand laid up RF prop.
Egads, over 100mph and absolute pure vertical out of sight in seconds. I use
a double bungee to launch it. Landing was a bit of a problem where even with
3 degrees washout it would tip stall sometimes and stall spin. No problem, I
built another wing with less wing area (still 4 foot span) higher aspect
ratio and thinner, and increased weight to 5 pounds! however I installed
articulatable NASA lead edge droop where I could select 30 degrees positive
and 5 degrees negative. 20 degrees drags things up but turns it into a pussy
cat, neg!
ative 5 degrees increases speed (probably negates washout) but you do not
want to stall it:
See bout 1/2 way down page
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27305&g2_page=1
BTW you can see how I am using my Quick Stick technology as a total loss
battery for my Europa with Rotax 914 as an emergency way to run a fuel pump,
could probably even start the 914. Even though it is only 2.2 pounds, It
will handle a 70 amp discharge once in a while without breaking too much of
a sweat, I wouldn't do it as a habit, but if I was trying to make a mid air
restart after soaring and either the motor got a little cold or my main
battery failed, putting this 15+ volt nominal battery in parallel with my
main battery would probably do good things for starting. If I had the
altitude and my main battery (or connection) somehow failed, I would
probably use my total loss to do an air restart, even though I don't like
spinning a cold engine so fast right away:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27305&g2_page=1
Also coming out of Quick Stick technology is cooling aid for my Rotax 914
install on my Europa XS. I have a folder that will have the ability to run
forward with plenty of pitch speed to aid cooling of oil and coolant
radiators, but also the ability to run in reverse to help warm up the
fluids, in flight start after soaring will sure be a good time, and i am
thinking it may even add a little speed in cruise, a pseude cowl flap if you
will. I am also installing two speed 400s hidden behind cowl gills. The
Europa XS monowheel suffers from overheating on ground and during climb in
hot weather. this is my attempt at keeping things cool:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28737
Here is schematic for cooling fans:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=79814
Using Eric Jones servo controller (knob in panel insert) to control a ESC,
and a DPTT switch with a reverse red LED and a blue forward LED:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81189
BTW I am using an aft mounted Odyssed PC545 battery to crank my Rotax 914
with new style starter, using Eric Jones CCA #4 wire crimped then soldered
with 2% silver solder from McMaster Carr with a lower melting point compared
to 63-37 or 60-40. Any copper on the airplane gets plated with cool amp
(silver plating right in place):
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710&g2_page=1
Boy talking about blabbing!
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314754#314754
Message 5
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Ice on the lake does shorten the flying season for me... I do have skiis
for the plane but it's a bother taking the floats off and then ransporting
the plane to a location to fly from. For me flying is definitely a warm
weather pastime.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: October 5, 2010 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?
Noel:
Good points - I was thinking about some of them as I was writing you. I'm
sure there are hundreds of issues I do not know about, not having been in a
float plane.
And I guess when the weather gets so cold that you have to worry about an
APU for starting - You also have to start worrying about ICE on the lake.
;-)
Barry
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Barry:
There are a few reasons why I wouldn't use a ground power connector. First
is there are no brakes on a float plane. It would work great if I had
someone else to remove the connector after starting the engine. Tying the
tail is with a slip knot is an option but then I would still have to have
the engine running with no one in the cockpit... not the best idea.
Finally is of course the possibility of damaging the ground battery pack if
the connector happened to fall in the drink.
Wheel planes are another quintal of fish! There are chocks to hold them in
place and usually a few people to remove the connector and of course it
gives you plenty of power for those cold morning starts without having to
worry about carrying the batteries aloft.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: October 3, 2010 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?
Hello Noel:
I really like your idea of a Ground Power Connector, they offer all sorts of
advantages.
How does being on floats negate the Ground Power Connector?
As you know and mentioned, wire run length is a major factor. An AWG of 2
should do well for short runs of wire and that #2 does have a safety margin
figured in. Going to an AWG of 0 for BOTH POSITIVE & NEGATIVE runs should
work VERY well.
I have never use it - But, there have been many reports of using 'welder's
cable', very flexible, abrasion resistance, low resistance and available at
welding supply houses. They also have the ring lugs.
AND - Gaggle - I know I posted this before but it REALLY is a GREAT TRICK:
SOLDER the wire to the ring lug ONLY at the end next to the mounting part of
the ring lug.
Crimp First - Then older. Clean well.
Barry
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Barry:
If I read you right you like myself feel the 6Ga. feed wire is a bit on the
light side. I agree if someone was to try to push 100 A through that wire
it wouldn't be long before it would heat up and cause even greater
resistance.
What would you think an acceptable gauge for the starter feed wire to be?
2Ga. ground straps were mentioned.
I'm almost ready to install the battery in my 912 mod. I think I'll have to
put the battery behind the seats and that means around an 8' run. I'm
seriously considering 0Ga or 00Ga. wire. If I weren't on floats I'd install
a ground power connector.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: October 1, 2010 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?
Ron & Dan:
Here is the math for the information you gave:
0.6KW = 600 WATTS
600 WATTS @ 12 VDC (I use 12 V because you are pulling the power from the
Battery)
I (current) = 600 W / 12 VDC = 50 AMPS But at WHAT TEMP?
Lets also use 8 VDC... Why? Because many starters will turn over at a much
lower voltage than 12 VDC to insure starting when the battery is low and the
temp too. SOoooo...
I = 600 WATTS / 8 VDC = 75 AMPS But again at WHAT TEMP?
I have VERY STRONG reservations to where and how they came up with this
0.6KW.
It sounds way - way too low.
I'm betting that current (0.6KW) is a sustained current AFTER the initial
surge.
I doubt if they used a current probe connected to a digital O-Scope to
capture the true current draw. Having done amperage checks on small
lawnmowers, they were pulling 100 Amps on a SUMMER DAY.
Don't go borderline.
Barry
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 3:38 PM, rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
wrote:
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hi Dan B.
The old style starter draws .6kW.
According to Lockwood, the new style starter draws less amps.
For a quick estimate using 60 amps for old style and 50 amps for new style
will get you very close to what is probably real draw. Remember this engine
is not too much over 70 cubic inches, not 200, 320, 360 or larger.
This info I gathered was based on a 914, but would imagine the 912S would be
very similar.
You can choose a larger resolution and look at starter on the right side:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId372
<http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId372&g2_imageVie
wsIndex=1> &g2_imageViewsIndex=1
Note if you run starter for 10 seconds, you should wait 2 minutes for cool
down.
I have a Odyssey PC525 mounted aft in fuse and am using #4 CCA. Others using
#4 have good success, but #2 wire would be a little better.
I think in your instance if #6 worked before, it will work better with the
HD starter.
The wire I am using is copper clad aluminium. The diameter is larger than #4
copper but the resistance is just about the same. I almost took the yellow
covering off the wire and stripped out strands to make it #5 to save a
little weight, then heat shrink Teflon heat shrink over the strands. Sounded
good, would have saved a little weight, then I realized just how much weight
it was going to save from my rear pocket and idea was put in the bin.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314349#314349
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I think Ron is getting at a different kind of battery. I have noticed with
an old electric razor it speeds up a lot after a minute or so of operation.
I have no idea why as there is little or no load on the motor when it is
first turned on. I would have thought that after a minute or so it would
have actually slwed down not speeded up.... go figure.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: October 5, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?
Ron:
I also fly R/C, have been doing it since 1972. And I have yet to see a
motor with a variable phase angle where you can change the timing. The
brushes must make contact and that's all there is. Anything else is ...
Well, it IS ____ ! Let the designers handle that WE do not have any control
over it. And personally I prefer Glow & Gas engines. They sound better.
THEY SOUND! ;-)
As for the "BTW on cars it works where on a cold day if you turn on all
loads for a few minutes before starting the the warming up of the battery
compared to the watts used nets to more cranking power."
--- Wait a minute ... Let me put my Hip Boots on. Who is feeding you this
BS?
When you put a battery under cold condition you are loosing between 15% to
33% of the cranking ability. Hey, don't take my word for it LQQK at your
battery and read the CA Vs CCA ratings. NOW, you want some poor person to
turn On their lights and etc., to draw from this already weak battery BEFORE
you try to start! How many ways is that wrong.
1 - If you want to put a load on the battery what better load then JUST
STARTING!
2 - Do you REALLY think a load of 200 to 250 Watts for a "few minutes" is
much of a load to heat a battery? ! ? Ha Ha Ha Heat the battery! I would
rather have a stray cat curl up with the battery than waste the time and
energy trying to heat the battery, by running it down.
3 - Have you worked out how much of a load Lights and a Fan are?
4 - Question: What does a battery store?
5 - How warm do you thing the battery will get? Lets LQQK at the MASS of
the battery - - Forget MASS, let's keep it simple, think of weight... How
heavy is a battery? And at what temperature is this battery 32F, 20F maybe
10F? And how many calories of heat do you think is required to raise the
temperature of this battery by 1 Degree F? Not even 1 Deg C.
6 - Don't forget the LEAD of the battery is a heat sink. And so is the
WATER - whoops ELECTROLYTE.
Still want to heat up the battery before starting?
Put a 100 Watt bulb next to it. And leave it on over night. Over Night that
is how long it takes on a cold night.
GEEEEEEEE I wonder why car companies haven't told the public about this
trick?
Tell your Wife this trick - And when the battery is DEAD - She will go in
the house to get warm and YOU can charge the battery. And DON'T yell at
her, that she did something wrong - Other wise you may need some place to
stay warm. Curl up in the dog house with Fido.
I'm not picking on you Ron, I HATE the internet for what it does in the
WRONG way - It propagates Old Wife's Tails and bull at the speed of an
electron.
In this case Shoot the Messenger that gave you that story.
Barry
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM, rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
wrote:
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hi Barry
"It's true that to achieve the same watt output with a lower voltage you
need to up the amperage, in reality when you lower the voltage going to an
electric motor the amp draw drops."
If you have a battery or power supply with wires that can keep the lowering
of voltage and amperage to a minimum, then it's true that if you lower the
voltage to a motor that is reasonably loaded the amp draw will go up since
the motor can't spin as fast as if it had higher voltage (within reason as
far as voltage and load and motor timing).
What I was getting at is that often (VERY OFTEN with high performance moder
electrics) you may have a battery and wire size that is very close to asking
max. amps that the battery can offer while maintaining a reasonable voltage.
If you ask any more amps it will begin to give up a lot of voltage and not
offer up any more amps. If you have long thin wires that only drop voltage
further, then heat the wires up and drop voltage even further, often you are
asking more amps from the battery that it can put out. The scenario is the
battery is huffing and puffing harder and harder but begins dropping amp
output and voltage, and the wires are warming up and making things worst.
Net is if you see too little voltage at a running loaded motor (again within
reason and you calculated what you are looking for), it probably means you
have a battery that has not enough ability to dump amps and keep the voltage
up, and or the wires are creating too much resistance and dropping voltage.
In this scenario of marginal battery and wires, lets put it in the cold
where the battery is offering up even less performance and the motor is
offering up more resistance to turning and we measure a lower voltage going
to the motor, t!
he motor will just plain not be seeing very many amps going to it compared
to a warm battery and engine.
Again what really matters to me is when it's cold out I can start my bird.
BTW on cars it works where on a cold day if you turn on all loads for a few
minutes before starting the the warming up of the battery compared to the
watts used nets to more cranking power.
Also with electric motors timing is every bit as important as on IC motors.
You want to select proper advance for what you are doing. You never want to
run a brushed motor retarded from neutral. Amp draw will go way up and brush
life and power output way down. Select too much advance for a highly loaded
motor and if you can provide enough amps you will get a little more power
output, but often the battery/wires net to less power and you are better off
running closer to a neutral timing. I wouldn't be too surprised if someone
tried a few motors and optimized timing for our 91Xs to get the high output
version that draws less amps than the original. I wouldn't be too surprised
if the original motor wouldn't benefit a lot by optimized timing, but then
again it may not be too easy to adjust.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314525#314525
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"Chop'd Liver"
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This has been a very good discussion. Years ago I attended one of the Nucko
lls =0Aworkshops, so I thought to join that group and ask him to take a loo
ksee at our =0AAmp topic.- He did, so for more info and opinion check out
Bob's take...=0A=0A-http://tinyurl.com/25t4lh3-=0AYou might suggest th
at those folks also join us on=0A- the AeroElectric-List.=0A=0A=0A- Bob
. . . =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Noel Loveys
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, Oc
tober 5, 2010 6:27:22 AM=0ASubject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?=0A=0A
=0AI think Ron is getting at a different kind of battery.- I have noticed
with an =0Aold electric razor it speeds up a lot after a minute or so of o
peration.- I have =0Ano idea why as there is little or no load on the mot
or when it is first turned =0Aon.- I would have thought that after a minu
te or so it would have actually slwed =0Adown not speeded up.... go figure.
=0A-=0ANoel=0A-=0AFrom:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com =0A
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
=0ASent: October 5, 2010 10:09 AM=0ATo: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com=0AS
ubject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: AMPS?=0A-=0ARon:=0A-=0AI also fly R/
C, have been doing it since 1972. -And I have yet to see a motor =0Awith
a variable phase angle where you can change the timing. -The brushes must
=0Amake contact and that's all there is. -Anything else is ... Well, it
IS ____ ! =0A-Let the-designers-handle that WE do not have any contro
l over it. -And =0Apersonally I-prefer-Glow & Gas engines. -They so
und better. -THEY SOUND! -;-)=0A-=0AAs for the "BTW on cars it works
where on a cold day if you turn on all loads =0Afor a few minutes before st
arting the the warming up of the battery compared to =0Athe watts used -n
ets to more cranking power."-=0A--- Wait a minute ... Let me put my Hip B
oots on. -Who is feeding you this BS?=0AWhen you put a battery under cold
condition you are loosing between 15% to 33% =0Aof the cranking ability.
-Hey, don't take my word for it LQQK at your battery =0Aand read the CA V
s CCA ratings. -NOW, you want some poor person to turn On their =0Alights
and etc., to draw from this already weak battery BEFORE you try to start!
=0A-How many ways is that wrong.=0A1 - If you want to put a load on the b
attery what better load then JUST =0ASTARTING!=0A2 - Do you REALLY think a
load of 200 to 250 Watts for a "few minutes" is much =0Aof a load to heat a
battery? ! ? - Ha Ha Ha Heat the battery! I would rather =0Ahave a stray
cat curl up with the battery than waste the time and-energy-trying =0A
to heat the battery, by running it down.=0A3 - Have you worked out how much
of a load Lights and a Fan are?=0A4 - Question: -What does a battery sto
re?=0A5 - How warm do you thing the battery will get? -Lets LQQK at the M
ASS of the =0Abattery -- - -Forget MASS, let's keep it simple, think of
weight... How heavy is =0Aa battery? -And at what temperature is this ba
ttery 32F, 20F maybe 10F? And how =0Amany calories of heat do you think is
required to-raise-the-temperature-of this =0Abattery by 1 Degree F?
-Not even 1 Deg C.=0A6 - Don't forget the LEAD of the battery is a heat
sink. -And so is the WATER =0A--whoops-ELECTROLYTE.=0AStill want to h
eat up the battery before starting?=0APut a 100 Watt bulb next to it. And l
eave it on over night. Over Night that is =0Ahow long it takes on a cold ni
ght.=0AGEEEEEEEE I wonder why car companies haven't told the public about t
his trick?=0A-=0ATell your Wife this trick - And when the battery is DEAD
- She will go in the =0Ahouse to get warm and YOU can charge the battery.
-And DON'T yell at her, that =0Ashe did something wrong - Other wise you
may need some place to stay warm. -Curl =0Aup in the dog-house-with F
ido.=0A-=0AI'm not picking on you Ron, I HATE the internet for what it do
es in the WRONG =0Away - It-propagates-Old Wife's Tails and bull at the
speed of an electron.=0AIn this case Shoot the-Messenger-that gave you
that story.=0A-=0ABarry=0A-=0A-=0AOn Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM, rp
arigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:=0A--> RotaxEngines-List messag
e posted by: "rparigoris" =0A<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>=0A=0AHi Barry=0A
=0A"It's true that to achieve the same watt output with a lower voltage you
need to =0Aup the amperage, in reality when you lower the voltage going to
an electric =0Amotor the amp draw drops."=0A=0AIf you have a battery or po
wer supply with wires that can keep the lowering of =0Avoltage and amperage
to a minimum, then it's true that if you lower the voltage =0Ato a motor t
hat is reasonably loaded the amp draw will go up since the motor =0Acan't s
pin as fast as if it had higher voltage (within reason as far as voltage
=0Aand load and motor timing).=0A=0AWhat I was getting at is that often (VE
RY OFTEN with high performance moder =0Aelectrics) you may have a battery a
nd wire size that is very close to asking =0Amax. amps that the battery can
offer while maintaining a reasonable voltage.=0AIf you ask any more amps i
t will begin to give up a lot of voltage and not offer =0Aup any more amps.
If you have long thin wires that only drop voltage further, =0Athen heat t
he wires up and drop voltage even further, often you are asking more =0Aamp
s from the battery that it can put out. The scenario is the battery is =0Ah
uffing and puffing harder and harder but begins dropping amp output and =0A
voltage, and the wires are warming up and making things worst. Net is if yo
u see =0Atoo little voltage at a running loaded motor (again within reason
and you =0Acalculated what you are looking for), it probably means you have
a battery that =0Ahas not enough ability to dump amps and keep the voltage
up, and or the wires =0Aare creating too much resistance and dropping volt
age. In this scenario of =0Amarginal battery and wires, lets put it in the
cold where the battery is =0Aoffering up even less performance and the moto
r is offering up more resistance =0Ato turning and we measure a lower volta
ge going to the motor, t!=0A-he motor will just plain not be seeing very
many amps going to it compared to a =0Awarm battery and engine.=0A=0AAgain
what really matters to me is when it's cold out I can start my bird.=0A=0AB
TW on cars it works where on a cold day if you turn on all loads for a few
=0Aminutes before starting the the warming up of the battery compared to th
e watts =0Aused -nets to more cranking power.=0A=0AAlso with electric mot
ors timing is every bit as important as on IC motors. You =0Awant to select
proper advance for what you are doing. You never want to run a =0Abrushed
motor retarded from neutral. Amp draw will go way up and brush life and =0A
power output way down. Select too much advance for a highly loaded motor an
d if =0Ayou can provide enough amps you will get a little more power output
, but often =0Athe battery/wires net to less power and you are better off r
unning closer to a =0Aneutral timing. I wouldn't be too surprised if someon
e tried a few motors and =0Aoptimized timing for our 91Xs to get the high o
utput version that draws less =0Aamps than the original. I wouldn't be too
surprised if the original motor =0Awouldn't benefit a lot by optimized timi
ng, but then again it may not be too =0Aeasy to adjust.=0ARon Parigoris=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/v
iewtopic.php?p=314525#314525=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=======
=====0A-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
RotaxEngines-List=0A============0Ahttp://forums.matro
nics.com=0A============0Ale, List Admin.=0A="_blank
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A===========
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0ABarry=0A"Chop'd Liver"=0A-=0A -=0A -=0Ahtt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics
============ =0A
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