---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/17/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:24 AM - Washing Ethanol out of Gas (JC Gilpin) 2. 02:40 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 3. 03:20 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (dave) 4. 06:21 PM - Re: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... (Noel Loveys) 5. 06:34 PM - Re: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... (Noel Loveys) 6. 06:37 PM - Re: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... (Noel Loveys) 7. 07:29 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Noel Loveys) 8. 07:36 PM - Re: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... (Robert Borger) 9. 08:41 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Noel Loveys) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:48 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas From: JC Gilpin * I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice. I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject. Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it. The Brazilians have figured it out long ago. We can learn a lot from them. JG * ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:45 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the =0Astuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less d amaging =0Ato the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20 times worse. =0AFacts not fiction.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0AFrom: JC Gilpin =0ATo: "rotaxen gines-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol ou t of Gas=0A=0AI think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice. I know what =0AI built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alco hol=0A>=0A>That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this su bject.=0A>Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it. =0A>The Brazi lians have figured it out long ago. =0A>We can learn a lot from them.=0A> ===================== =0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:15 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas From: "dave" JC, I am with you. I have over 1000 hours on Ethanol gas and not had one issue. I have 8 Rotax 2 stroke powered planes at my strip and they all use it and no one has had an issue yet. Some pre mix some injected. Is it all hogwash or wife's tales ? I not sure. I do know that if they was such a big issue then you would see planes all over the place dead, broken as well as lawn mowers,chainsaws, weed wackers,cars ,jet skis, snowmobiles. I am still waiting to see this damage that everyone talks about. Maybe we will soon, who knows. Some are betting sitting at their keyboard then actually get some realtime flying in it seems. Dave http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer Videos using ethanol gas. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada http://www.cfisher.com/ Awesome *New Forum * http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316012#316012 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:54 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... This may be a good time to remind most of the folks that even with 100ll it's a good idea to let the gas in the plane sit for at least twenty minutes just incase there si any water in the fuel.. It has happened. After refuelling (and waiting) the tanks and gascolator should be driiped to make sure there is no water in the fuel system. The guy who bought my father's LA-4 made the mistake of not waiting for fuel to settle out and dripping his tanks... He paid the ultimate price! Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen Sent: October 15, 2010 11:35 AM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... I siphon my unwashed gasoline into the water I have standing in the bottom of my 6.5 gallon glass carboy by putting the outlet side of the siphon hose in the standing water so that the gasoline swirls into the standing water. Having marked the water level on the side of the carboy before adding gas I am able to judge the quantity of ethanol I have removed since the level comes up about 3/4" after the mix settles. I usually let it sit 1/2 hour to be safe. I then siphon washed gas off the top leaving about 1.25" of gasoline on top of the water so that I don't siphon up any water with the washed gas. I can wash about 25-30 gallons by just siphoning more unwashed gas into the carboy and don't have to add any more water with each carboy fill up. Eventually there is 4 or 5 inches of alcohol/water mix in the bottom of of the carboy so that only 4 gallons of unwashed gas can be added. When that happens I siphon the alcohol/water mix off the bottom of the tank being careful not to siphon any gasoline. I then start over. There is always some gas and water/alcohol left in the carboy so that I am not wasting any gasoline. Pete On 10/14/2010 6:52 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > I take it you are leaving lots of time for the water to settle out > completely. Are you draining from the bottom or siphoning? > > Noel > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:47 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... You could run it through a still.... Alcohol boils off somewhere around 80C at sea level. Then use the distilled alcohol, which BTW is not palatable (Darn!), as fuel for a table heater or for cleaning small parts. The alcohol is bio degradable but I don't know about the stuff they put in to make it unpalatable. Noel From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen Sent: October 15, 2010 4:11 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... I use it to kill weeds and bugs. Or alternatively I make suppositories and shove them up some congressman's (oops I almost used a bad word) Pete On 10/15/2010 10:06 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Pete: After yo have a carboy filled with this alcohol/gas/water mixture what do you do with the hazardous waste? Here is a simple process to reduce the hazmat to zero. Agitate the mixture while holding a propane (or hotter) flame blowing onto the top of the mixture. The alcohol/gas will burn off leaving water. There is also another process where you put a submersible heater into the mixture which causes the flammable stuff to vaporize and that vapor is them hit with a flame. This is a bit questionable due to cost and setup requirements. Barry On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Pete Christensen wrote: I siphon my unwashed gasoline into the water I have standing in the bottom of my 6.5 gallon glass carboy by putting the outlet side of the siphon hose in the standing water so that the gasoline swirls into the standing water. Having marked the water level on the side of the carboy before adding gas I am able to judge the quantity of ethanol I have removed since the level comes up about 3/4" after the mix settles. I usually let it sit 1/2 hour to be safe. I then siphon washed gas off the top leaving about 1.25" of gasoline on top of the water so that I don't siphon up any water with the washed gas. I can wash about 25-30 gallons by just siphoning more unwashed gas into the carboy and don't have to add any more water with each carboy fill up. Eventually there is 4 or 5 inches of alcohol/water mix in the bottom of of the carboy so that only 4 gallons of unwashed gas can be added. When that happens I siphon the alcohol/water mix off the bottom of the tank being careful not to siphon any gasoline. I then start over. There is always some gas and water/alcohol left in the carboy so that I am not wasting any gasoline. Pete On 10/14/2010 6:52 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" I take it you are leaving lots of time for the water to settle out completely. Are you draining from the bottom or siphoning? Noel ========== -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:48 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... Usually the container used for making beer is called a tun. The carboy is used for wine. I know; Picky, picky, picky! Noel From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen Sent: October 15, 2010 4:06 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... It is a large small mouth bottle used in making beer. On 10/15/2010 10:04 AM, Hugh McKay wrote: Pete, Pardon my ignorance in this matter, but please describe what you refer to as "a 6.5 gallon carboy"? Hugh McKay Rotax 912 UL Allegro 2000 -------------------------------------------------- From: "Pete Christensen" Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:04 AM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... I siphon my unwashed gasoline into the water I have standing in the bottom of my 6.5 gallon glass carboy by putting the outlet side of the siphon hose in the standing water so that the gasoline swirls into the standing water. Having marked the water level on the side of the carboy before adding gas I am able to judge the quantity of ethanol I have removed since the level comes up about 3/4" after the mix settles. I usually let it sit 1/2 hour to be safe. I then siphon washed gas off the top leaving about 1.25" of gasoline on top of the water so that I don't siphon up any water with the washed gas. I can wash about 25-30 gallons by just siphoning more unwashed gas into the carboy and don't have to add any more water with each carboy fill up. Eventually there is 4 or 5 inches of alcohol/water mix in the bottom of of the carboy so that only 4 gallons of unwashed gas can be added. When that happens I siphon the alcohol/water mix off the bottom of the tank being careful not to siphon any gasoline. I then start over. There is always some gas and water/alcohol left in the carboy so that I am not wasting any gasoline. Pete On 10/14/2010 6:52 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" I take it you are leaving lots of time for the water to settle out completely. Are you draining from the bottom or siphoning? Noel ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:26 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas Snip How much of any of these chemicals are being fractionated out of the fuel along with the ethanol and water? Since the water solubility of those chemicals is for all intents and purposes nil the chances of washing out other necessary components is next to nil. There is a component (chemical) put in the ethanol to prevent anyone from refining and drinking it, that component is removed with water. Other than that the most other thing that is removed is dust which occasionally gets in the gas. BTW once the ethanol is removed your gascolator will work again. Noel ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:49 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... The Tun is used for mashing and lautering of the beer mash. The cracked malted barley is placed in the mash tun where it is mixed with hot (120F-160F) water. The mash is held there till the starches in the malted barley have been converted to sugar. After conversion the mash may be lautered in the mash tun or moved to a specific lauater tun. Lautering is the washing of the fermentable sugar solution (wort) from the barley. The wort is run into a boil kettle where it is brought to a boil and up to three batches of hops are added at various points in the boil. The wort is boiled until the desired specific gravity is obtained. The wort is then cooled to below 80F and placed in a vessel with suitable yeast culture for fermentation. This vessel can range from a covered plastic bucket (poorest) to a stainless steel cylindroconical purpose designed fermenter (best). Most home brewers use the carboy, equipped with a fermentation air lock, for fermentation. The carboy can also be used to ferment wine, mead, cider and other adult beverages. Ya, a picky brewer... Check six, Bob Borger http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL Europa XS, Short Wing, Intercooled Rotax 914 rlborger@mac.com Cel: 817-992-1117 On Oct 17, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > Usually the container used for making beer is called a tun. The carboy is used for wine. > > I know; Picky, picky, picky! > > Noel > > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen > Sent: October 15, 2010 4:06 PM > To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... > > It is a large small mouth bottle used in making beer. > > > > On 10/15/2010 10:04 AM, Hugh McKay wrote: > > Pete, > > Pardon my ignorance in this matter, but please describe what you refer to as "a 6.5 gallon carboy"? > > Hugh McKay > Rotax 912 UL > Allegro 2000 > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Pete Christensen" > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 10:04 AM > To: > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Gas (was)Just when you were getting used to 10% ethanol... > > > > I siphon my unwashed gasoline into the water I have standing in the bottom of my 6.5 gallon glass carboy by putting the outlet side of the siphon hose in the standing water so that the gasoline swirls into the standing water. Having marked the water level on the side of the carboy before adding gas I am able to judge the quantity of ethanol I have removed since the level comes up about 3/4" after the mix settles. I usually let it sit 1/2 hour to be safe. I then siphon washed gas off the top leaving about 1.25" of gasoline on top of the water so that I don't siphon up any water with the washed gas. I can wash about 25-30 gallons by just siphoning more unwashed gas into the carboy and don't have to add any more water with each carboy fill up. Eventually there is 4 or 5 inches of alcohol/water mix in the bottom of of the carboy so that only 4 gallons of unwashed gas can be added. When that happens I siphon the alcohol/water mix off the bottom of the tank being careful not to siphon any gasoline. > > I then start over. There is always some gas and water/alcohol left in the carboy so that I am not wasting any gasoline. > > Pete > > > On 10/14/2010 6:52 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > > --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > I take it you are leaving lots of time for the water to settle out > completely. Are you draining from the bottom or siphoning? > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:44 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel rocketing inflation. Noel From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction. Graham _____ From: JC Gilpin Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21 Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice. I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject. Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it. The Brazilians have figured it out long ago. We can learn a lot from them. JG http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.