---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/18/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:09 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 2. 01:44 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (FLYaDIVE) 3. 06:01 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (rampil) 4. 06:24 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Robert Borger) 5. 07:29 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Ken Ryan) 6. 08:12 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Silvano Gai) 7. 08:49 AM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Ron Steele) 8. 02:02 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Robert Borger) 9. 05:21 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (bjones@dmv.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:28 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas Yes, it shows the effect of having friends in high places, farmers' votes a nd =0Aall that. The weak link in democracy I'm afraid. Even worse here in E urope. =0A=0ASad but there are too many if us on this planet, we need to ex pand into space =0Abefore we wreck this place=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A____________ ____________________=0AFrom: Noel Loveys =0ATo: rotaxe ngines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, 18 October, 2010 4:38:57=0ASubjec t: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas=0A=0A =0AApparently th e professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of =0Afigures t he swear by. The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four =0Agall ons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. If you add the =0Apol lution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the =0A pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where etha nol =0Ais the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to inj ury the land =0Athat should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel =0Arocketing inflation.=0A =0ANoel=0A =0AFrom:owner-rotaxe ngines-list-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM =0ASINGLETON=0ASent: October 17, 2010 7: 08 AM=0ATo: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: RotaxEngines-Lis t: Washing Ethanol out of Gas=0A =0Awhat we haven't figured out is how to f ind the energy it takes to make the =0Astuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less damaging =0Ato the environment, unless i t escapes before its burnt, then its 20 times worse. =0AFacts not fiction. =0AGraham=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:JC Gilpin =0ATo: "rotaxengines-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21=0ASubject: Ro taxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas=0A I think I will take my chanc es with E15 if that's the choice.=0A I know what I built my fuel syste m with and it all tolerates alcohol=0A=0AThat's the most realistic and sens ible post I've seen on this subject.=0A=0A=0ALet's get used to it and learn how to live with it. =0AThe Brazilians have figured it out long ago. =0A We can learn a lot from them.=0A=0AJG=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator? RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" =0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com /contribution">h=0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxE ngines-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contri ===================== =0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas From: FLYaDIVE Why does the gascoator stop working with ethanol? > BTW once the ethanol is removed your gascolator will work again. > > Noel > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:08 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas From: "rampil" Noel, I am curious to know where you can fine the list of premium mogas additives and their oil:water, oil:EtOH partition coefficients. Many of them are tightly held proprietary secrets. Obviously they all are soluble in gasoline but that does not exclude solubility in water or ethanol. I deal with phase solubilities all day at work (especially olive oil:water pc, and blood:air). Without the data, I'll stick with my original position and use E15. If I can find the data, and it looks appropriately low in PC, I'll reconsider. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316149#316149 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas From: Robert Borger Noel, You are right on! Ethanol is an extremely poor source of energy for all those reasons. BTW, MTBE was not an anti-knock compound. It was an oxygenate to promote more complete burning. Its use was also strongly opposed by the oil industry because of all the bad properties (carcinogen, etc.) but our Congress mandated its use, enforced by the EPA. Then when the nasty crap moved into the environment that same Congress and EPA blamed it on the oil companies and forced them to pay for the cleanup. But then who else would pay for the cleanup? Congress? If they pay for it, it just comes out of our taxes so we all pay for it. No matter what, we all pay for it. Ethanol was then mandated as a replacement oxygenate. It also has the associated property of being and anti-knock agent. Be careful removing the ethanol as you are lowering the octane anti-knock properties of the fuel. Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232 http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046 Europa Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Oct 17, 2010, at 22:38, Noel Loveys wrote: > Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol and helping fuel rocketing inflation. > > Noel > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas From: Ken Ryan Noel, I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such a paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give me a link to the copy you read. Thanks, Ken Ryan Anchorage, Alaska On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series > of figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that it takes almost > four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. If you add > the pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to > the pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where > ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to > injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol > and helping fuel rocketing inflation. > > > Noel > > > *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *GRAHAM > SINGLETON > *Sent:* October 17, 2010 7:08 AM > *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas > > > what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the > stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less > damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20 > times worse. Facts not fiction. > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* JC Gilpin > *To:* "rotaxengines-list@matronics.com" > *Sent:* Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21 > *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas** > > * I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.* > > * I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates > alcohol > > **That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.** > > * > > *Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it. ** > The Brazilians have figured it out long ago. > We can learn a lot from them. > > JG* > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h* > > * * > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:16 AM PST US From: Silvano Gai Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas The ratio of 4 is incorrect, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel "one unit of fossil-fuel energy is required to create 1.3 energy units from the resulting ethanol. " Pollution-wise I think it is bad because you need to burn 2.3 units to get 1.3 unit of work -- Silvano On 10/18/10 7:26 AM, Ken Ryan wrote: > Noel, > > I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT > professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel > to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such a > paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give me > a link to the copy you read. > > Thanks, > > Ken Ryan > Anchorage, Alaska > > > On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys > wrote: > > Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a > series of figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that > it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon > of ethanol. If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned > in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by > the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst > filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to injury the > land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol > and helping fuel rocketing inflation. > > Noel > > From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf > Of GRAHAM SINGLETON > Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM > To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas > > what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to > make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane > is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before > its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction. > Graham > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: JC Gilpin > > To: "rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > " > > > Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21 > Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas > > I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice. > > I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates > alcohol > > That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject. > > Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it. > The Brazilians have figured it out long ago. > We can learn a lot from them. > > JG > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:02 AM PST US From: Ron Steele Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas While I won't argue with the numbers, I'd be very leery of accepting anthhing at face value from Wikepedia when it envolves something as political as ethanol fuel. Anybody can edit thoses articles and throw whatever numbers they like. As I said before, I'm not a big proponent of ethanol as a fuel. But if memory serves, and sometimes it doesn't, didn't Germany use ethanol as an all purpose fuel in WWII? Surely they were smart enough not to burn more diesel to make it than they produced? Ron On 10/18/2010 11:09 AM, Silvano Gai wrote: > > The ratio of 4 is incorrect, see: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel > > "one unit of fossil-fuel energy is required to create 1.3 energy units > from the resulting ethanol. " > > Pollution-wise I think it is bad because you need to burn 2.3 units to > get 1.3 unit of work > > -- Silvano > > > On 10/18/10 7:26 AM, Ken Ryan wrote: >> Noel, >> >> I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT >> professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel >> fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such >> a paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give >> me a link to the copy you read. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ken Ryan >> Anchorage, Alaska >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys > > wrote: >> >> Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a >> series of figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that >> it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon >> of ethanol. If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned >> in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by >> the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst >> filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to injury the >> land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol >> and helping fuel rocketing inflation. >> >> Noel >> >> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com >> >> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com >> ] On Behalf >> Of GRAHAM SINGLETON >> Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM >> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com >> >> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas >> >> what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to >> make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane >> is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before >> its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction. >> Graham >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> From: JC Gilpin > >> To: "rotaxengines-list@matronics.com >> " >> > > >> Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21 >> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas >> >> I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice. >> >> I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates >> alcohol >> >> That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this >> subject. >> >> Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it. >> The Brazilians have figured it out long ago. >> We can learn a lot from them. >> >> JG >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" >> target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List >> >> http://forums.matronics.com >> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> ist" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas From: Robert Borger Ron, Yes, Germany developed the Fischer-Tropsch Process to convert coal gas (which is primarily methane) into into various fuels and lubes. One of the intermediate steps in the process is the generation of methanol (methyl alcohol). The process can also be used to convert biomass to fuels and lubes. Unfortunately, it is very expensive and generally only used in extreme situations such as when the allies cut off the supply of Romanian hydrocarbons to the Third Reich. When you gotta have fuel, you do what is necessary to make it. Today there are more economical, catalytic, means to convert methane to fuel. But both these process convert methane to methanol to fuel, not ethanol (grain alcohol) to fuel. Converting food to fuel is just plain stupid. Check six, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232 http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046 Europa Flying! 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Oct 18, 2010, at 10:46, Ron Steele wrote: > > While I won't argue with the numbers, I'd be very leery of accepting anthhing at face value from Wikepedia when it envolves something as political as ethanol fuel. Anybody can edit thoses articles and throw whatever numbers they like. > > > As I said before, I'm not a big proponent of ethanol as a fuel. But if memory serves, and sometimes it doesn't, didn't Germany use ethanol as an all purpose fuel in WWII? Surely they were smart enough not to burn more diesel to make it than they produced? > > Ron ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas From: bjones@dmv.com when excess water is present the ethanol and water join and settle out together below the gas. This settleout will pass thru a water seperator funnel but the engine will not run on it. When setttleout occurs you have ten percent by volume of what may look like gas when you sump the tanks but kill the engine after take off when it raches the engine. I have had it happen BJ N626NR PA 39 N154K Kotfox IIv Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: FLYaDIVE Sender: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas Why does the gascoator stop working with ethanol? > BTW once the ethanol is removed your gascolator will work again. > > Noel > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.