Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:16 PM - 100ll 100% of the time (John Fasching)
2. 02:26 PM - Re: 100ll 100% of the time (Dan Billingsley)
3. 02:39 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Noel Loveys)
4. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Noel Loveys)
5. 02:51 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Noel Loveys)
6. 03:00 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Noel Loveys)
7. 03:06 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Noel Loveys)
8. 03:09 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Noel Loveys)
9. 03:27 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Roger Lee)
10. 03:31 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (william sullivan)
11. 03:35 PM - Re: 100ll 100% of the time (Roger Lee)
12. 03:44 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (dave)
13. 04:02 PM - Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas (Thilo Kind)
14. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: 100ll 100% of the time (John Fasching)
15. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: Washed gas technical considerations (bjones@dmv.com)
16. 08:36 PM - Re: 100ll 100% of the time (Roger Lee)
17. 08:58 PM - Re: Washed gas technical considerations (Roger Lee)
18. 09:10 PM - Re: Washed gas technical considerations (Roger Lee)
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| Subject: | 100ll 100% of the time |
I am contemplating use of 100ll all the time as long as its available
instead of the soon to be 15% (if not already) ethanol in a Rotax
912ULS. I use Aeroshell Sport Plus 4, and would plan 25-hour oil changes
and use of Decalin. I fly about 50-hours per year. Your comments would
be welcome.
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| Subject: | Re: 100ll 100% of the time |
There are several guys in the Kitfox squadron here in Phoenix that use nothing
else but 100LL...100% of the time. They use a lead scavenger like Decalin with
every fill up and things work just fine. My buddy has 800 + hours on his 912S
and has had no trouble.
Dan B
________________________________
From: John Fasching <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us>
Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 2:12:55 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 100ll 100% of the time
I am contemplating use of 100ll all the time as long as its available instead of
the soon to be 15% (if not already) ethanol in a Rotax 912ULS. I use Aeroshell
Sport Plus 4, and would plan 25-hour oil changes and use of Decalin. I fly about
50-hours per year. Your comments would be welcome.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
The water forms a solution with the ethanol which is in a phase relationship
with the gasoline. Because of this any moisture in the fuel will pass
through the gascolator with not sign of being there. Remove the ethanol and
there is nothing water can form a solution with so any moisture forms
droplets which the gascolator can easily remove.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: October 18, 2010 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
Why does the gascoator stop working with ethanol?
BTW once the ethanol is removed your gascolator will work again.
Noel
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| Subject: | Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
I actually didn't. I consulted with a friend who ran a commercial
laboratory. He did all sorts of tests plasma spectroscopy Etc. He was the
one who described to me the constituents of gasoline. Apparently there are
several but most of them are either so slightly soluble with water or
completely insoluble.
One of the things about MOGAS is it is going to be different. That is from
brand to brand, octane to octane and from season to season.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil
Sent: October 18, 2010 10:29 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
Noel,
I am curious to know where you can fine the list of premium
mogas additives and their oil:water, oil:EtOH partition coefficients.
Many of them are tightly held proprietary secrets.
Obviously they all are soluble in gasoline but that does not exclude
solubility in water or ethanol. I deal with phase solubilities all day
at work (especially olive oil:water pc, and blood:air).
Without the data, I'll stick with my original position and use E15.
If I can find the data, and it looks appropriately low in PC, I'll
reconsider.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316149#316149
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| Subject: | Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
All true. It is my understanding that gasoline with the ethanol removed has
an RON of around 87 which is high enough for our engines.
What I've been looking for is a way to precipitate the lead out of 100 LL.
Either that or the introduction of an ethanol free, lead free aviation fuel.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Borger
Sent: October 18, 2010 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
Noel,
You are right on! Ethanol is an extremely poor source of energy for all
those reasons.
BTW, MTBE was not an anti-knock compound. It was an oxygenate to promote
more complete burning. Its use was also strongly opposed by the oil
industry because of all the bad properties (carcinogen, etc.) but our
Congress mandated its use, enforced by the EPA. Then when the nasty crap
moved into the environment that same Congress and EPA blamed it on the oil
companies and forced them to pay for the cleanup. But then who else would
pay for the cleanup? Congress? If they pay for it, it just comes out of
our taxes so we all pay for it. No matter what, we all pay for it.
Ethanol was then mandated as a replacement oxygenate. It also has the
associated property of being and anti-knock agent. Be careful removing the
ethanol as you are lowering the octane anti-knock properties of the fuel.
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232
http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046
Europa Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Oct 17, 2010, at 22:38, Noel Loveys wrote:
Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of
figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four
gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. If you add the
pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the
pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where
ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to
injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol
and helping fuel rocketing inflation.
Noel
Message 6
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| Subject: | Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
Again I didn't read it I saw it on an interview on the discovery channel
about five years ago. I'd also like to see his data. He also said a few
other things the fact there wasn't enough land in all of North America,
Canada and Alaska included to produce enough ethanol to meet the
requirements of the U.S. alone.
Apparently he included all the fuel required to prepare the land for
seeding, the actual seeding, the spraying, the harvesting, the shipping of
the raw corn, the fermenting process the distillation process and then the
transport of the finished ethanol. His statement was based on so many
gallons of ethanol produced per acre of land and having the ethanol mixed
with gasoline within so many miles of distillation plant.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: October 18, 2010 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
Noel,
I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT
professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to
produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such a paper exists.
But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give me a link to the copy
you read.
Thanks,
Ken Ryan
Anchorage, Alaska
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a series of
figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that it takes almost four
gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. If you add the
pollution of those four gallons burned in the production of ethanol to the
pollution actually caused by the ethanol itself then you can see where
ethanol is the worst filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to
injury the land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol
and helping fuel rocketing inflation.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to make the
stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane is even less
damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before its burnt, then its 20
times worse. Facts not fiction.
Graham
_____
From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com>
Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.
I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates alcohol
That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this subject.
Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.
The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.
We can learn a lot from them.
JG
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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| Subject: | Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
I have to be honest here I know the Germans did make an ersatz fuel I was
under the impression it was primarily coal oil, and vegetable oils.
Perhaps it did have ethanol in it along with fossil fuel.
I had a friend from Kassel in Germany. He told me the busses in Germany
were modified to operate on wood gas produced by smouldering wood chips in
the rear of the bus. He said before going up hills the driver would have to
get out and stoke the fire to produce the gas the diesel engine ran on.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Steele
Sent: October 18, 2010 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
While I won't argue with the numbers, I'd be very leery of accepting
anthhing at face value from Wikepedia when it envolves something as
political as ethanol fuel. Anybody can edit thoses articles and throw
whatever numbers they like.
As I said before, I'm not a big proponent of ethanol as a fuel. But if
memory serves, and sometimes it doesn't, didn't Germany use ethanol as
an all purpose fuel in WWII? Surely they were smart enough not to burn
more diesel to make it than they produced?
Ron
On 10/18/2010 11:09 AM, Silvano Gai wrote:
>
> The ratio of 4 is incorrect, see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
>
> "one unit of fossil-fuel energy is required to create 1.3 energy units
> from the resulting ethanol. "
>
> Pollution-wise I think it is bad because you need to burn 2.3 units to
> get 1.3 unit of work
>
> -- Silvano
>
>
> On 10/18/10 7:26 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>> Noel,
>>
>> I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT
>> professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel
>> fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such
>> a paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give
>> me a link to the copy you read.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ken Ryan
>> Anchorage, Alaska
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca
>> <mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a
>> series of figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that
>> it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon
>> of ethanol. If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned
>> in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by
>> the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst
>> filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to injury the
>> land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol
>> and helping fuel rocketing inflation.
>>
>> Noel
>>
>> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf
>> Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
>> Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM
>> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
>>
>> what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to
>> make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane
>> is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before
>> its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com <mailto:j.gilpin@bigpond.com>>
>> To: "rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>"
>> <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>>
>> Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21
>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
>>
>> I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.
>>
>> I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates
>> alcohol
>>
>> That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this
>> subject.
>>
>> Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.
>> The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.
>> We can learn a lot from them.
>>
>> JG
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow"
>> target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> ist"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
Now if we can just get politicians on both sides of the border to see it
that way! We might then come up with a good reliable fuel.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Borger
Sent: October 18, 2010 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
Ron,
Yes, Germany developed the Fischer-Tropsch Process to convert coal gas
(which is primarily methane) into into various fuels and lubes. One of the
intermediate steps in the process is the generation of methanol (methyl
alcohol). The process can also be used to convert biomass to fuels and
lubes. Unfortunately, it is very expensive and generally only used in
extreme situations such as when the allies cut off the supply of Romanian
hydrocarbons to the Third Reich. When you gotta have fuel, you do what is
necessary to make it. Today there are more economical, catalytic, means to
convert methane to fuel. But both these process convert methane to methanol
to fuel, not ethanol (grain alcohol) to fuel. Converting food to fuel is
just plain stupid.
Check six,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232
http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046
Europa Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Oct 18, 2010, at 10:46, Ron Steele wrote:
>
> While I won't argue with the numbers, I'd be very leery of accepting
anthhing at face value from Wikepedia when it envolves something as
political as ethanol fuel. Anybody can edit thoses articles and throw
whatever numbers they like.
>
>
> As I said before, I'm not a big proponent of ethanol as a fuel. But if
memory serves, and sometimes it doesn't, didn't Germany use ethanol as an
all purpose fuel in WWII? Surely they were smart enough not to burn more
diesel to make it than they produced?
>
> Ron
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
Hi All,
If you all are washing gas for the 912ULS 100 hp then you should stop and I wouldn't
put another drop of washed fuel in my 912ULS. I just got with some people
that work with this as a business and did some real testing at a lab. The washed
gas looses octane and the 91 oct. went from 91 to 88.3 oct. It also took
out some of the additives. That 88.3 Oct. is too low for the 912ULS 100 hp. You
will eventually ruin your engine. For the guys with the 912UL 80 hp you could
still use this fuel at 88 oct.
I just saw the lab results a few hours ago. These guys really did their homework.
If you want to use this technique there are devices on the market.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316796#316796
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
- Noel- The Japanese used the same arrangement with charcoal.- My fathe
r saw it on Okinawa and in China while with the Marines in 1945.- He said
they only went 10 or 15mph, but it was better than walking and carrying th
e load.
-
-------------------------
------------------ Bill Sullivan
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 100ll 100% of the time |
Hi John,
Sounds like you have a good handle on the use of 100LL.
Buuuttt, If you have seen any pictures or a leaded engine or have seen the engine
top ends and gearbox's I have you wouldn't use 100LL unless forced to during
travel. When you see the lead paste build up in the oil tank you will need
to de-lead the gearbox at 800 hours not 1000 hrs. and send the gearbox clutch
in to have the lead removed or else it won't properly work any more, or if you
had seen the lead on top of the pistons and around the valves you may want to
reconsider if you can. Rotax advises to use 91 Oct and stay away from 100LL
if at all possible. We just gave a class and some pictures were shown to the students
of the lead deposits. I think it made believers out of them.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316798#316798
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
Roger Lee wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> If you all are washing gas for the 912ULS 100 hp then you should stop and I wouldn't
put another drop of washed fuel in my 912ULS. I just got with some people
that work with this as a business and did some real testing at a lab. The
washed gas looses octane and the 91 oct. went from 91 to 88.3 oct. It also took
out some of the additives. That 88.3 Oct. is too low for the 912ULS 100 hp.
You will eventually ruin your engine. For the guys with the 912UL 80 hp you could
still use this fuel at 88 oct.
> I just saw the lab results a few hours ago. These guys really did their homework.
> If you want to use this technique there are devices on the market.
Roger I just passed 1100 hours in Rotax 2strokes with Ethanol gas.
is there a proble with ethanol gas ?
The ones that whine about it -heck might not fly much ?
Armchair captains
Check my videos -- Real time proof it works .
I am not a supporter of ethanol gas but it here and I ain't got no choice. SO
I MAKE IT WORK
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316801#316801
Message 13
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| Subject: | Washing Ethanol out of Gas |
During the war Germany used coal to produce methane based fuels, since crude
oil was hard to come by. The process was not very efficient, but since all
other fuel sources were not longer accessible to them, they had to go that
road.
The wood driven cars and trucks were mostly civilian vehicles during and
shortly after the war. Wood was loaded into a vessel and ignited. A small
hole at the bottom of the vessel provided air, but not enough to burn all
the wood. Hence, a good portion of the wood degraded into gas, which was
then used to drive an internal combustion engine. Not very efficient - the
energy content of the wood was very low and the gas didn't burn very clean
inside the engine (which significantly reduced the life time of the engine).
Not really an option for airplanes....
Sorry to hear about the trouble with the gas / ethanol in the US. For once,
we have an advantage here in Europe: our Mogas contains 5 % Ethanol max....
Thilo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 00:04
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
I have to be honest here I know the Germans did make an ersatz fuel I was
under the impression it was primarily coal oil, and vegetable oils.
Perhaps it did have ethanol in it along with fossil fuel.
I had a friend from Kassel in Germany. He told me the busses in Germany
were modified to operate on wood gas produced by smouldering wood chips in
the rear of the bus. He said before going up hills the driver would have to
get out and stoke the fire to produce the gas the diesel engine ran on.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Steele
Sent: October 18, 2010 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
While I won't argue with the numbers, I'd be very leery of accepting
anthhing at face value from Wikepedia when it envolves something as
political as ethanol fuel. Anybody can edit thoses articles and throw
whatever numbers they like.
As I said before, I'm not a big proponent of ethanol as a fuel. But if
memory serves, and sometimes it doesn't, didn't Germany use ethanol as
an all purpose fuel in WWII? Surely they were smart enough not to burn
more diesel to make it than they produced?
Ron
On 10/18/2010 11:09 AM, Silvano Gai wrote:
>
> The ratio of 4 is incorrect, see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
>
> "one unit of fossil-fuel energy is required to create 1.3 energy units
> from the resulting ethanol. "
>
> Pollution-wise I think it is bad because you need to burn 2.3 units to
> get 1.3 unit of work
>
> -- Silvano
>
>
> On 10/18/10 7:26 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>> Noel,
>>
>> I would be very interesting in reading the paper written by the MIT
>> professors that shows that it takes almost four gallons of diesel
>> fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol. Frankly, I don't believe such
>> a paper exists. But if it does, I would love to read it! Please give
>> me a link to the copy you read.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ken Ryan
>> Anchorage, Alaska
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca
>> <mailto:noelloveys@yahoo.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> Apparently the professors at MIT have been able to come up with a
>> series of figures the swear by. The last figures I saw said that
>> it takes almost four gallons of diesel fuel to produce one gallon
>> of ethanol. If you add the pollution of those four gallons burned
>> in the production of ethanol to the pollution actually caused by
>> the ethanol itself then you can see where ethanol is the worst
>> filthy fuel that you can imagine. Adding insult to injury the
>> land that should be in food production is now producing ethanol
>> and helping fuel rocketing inflation.
>>
>> Noel
>>
>> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf
>> Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
>> Sent: October 17, 2010 7:08 AM
>> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
>>
>> what we haven't figured out is how to find the energy it takes to
>> make the stuff! Oil is more energy conserving than ethanol. Metane
>> is even less damaging to the environment, unless it escapes before
>> its burnt, then its 20 times worse. Facts not fiction.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com <mailto:j.gilpin@bigpond.com>>
>> To: "rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>"
>> <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>>
>> Sent: Sunday, 17 October, 2010 10:18:21
>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Washing Ethanol out of Gas
>>
>> I think I will take my chances with E15 if that's the choice.
>>
>> I know what I built my fuel system with and it all tolerates
>> alcohol
>>
>> That's the most realistic and sensible post I've seen on this
>> subject.
>>
>> Let's get used to it and learn how to live with it.
>> The Brazilians have figured it out long ago.
>> We can learn a lot from them.
>>
>> JG
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-ofollow"
>> target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> ist"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
20:34:00
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 100ll 100% of the time |
Ok, then what should we do? Use 15% ethanol, use 100ll 50% of the time, and
15% ethanol 50% of time .... my personal hope is that 100ll goes away as
soon as possible and whatever substitute is made available will be better
for the 912...high enough octane, no lead...a dream proabably...it won't
happen until long after I am dead.....I really don't know what to
do...'washing' ethanol-laced fuel doesn't appeal to me and ethanol-free auto
gas is no longer available in my area.
Your suggestion?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 4:33 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 100ll 100% of the time
>
> Hi John,
>
> Sounds like you have a good handle on the use of 100LL.
> Buuuttt, If you have seen any pictures or a leaded engine or have seen
> the engine top ends and gearbox's I have you wouldn't use 100LL unless
> forced to during travel. When you see the lead paste build up in the oil
> tank you will need to de-lead the gearbox at 800 hours not 1000 hrs. and
> send the gearbox clutch in to have the lead removed or else it won't
> properly work any more, or if you had seen the lead on top of the pistons
> and around the valves you may want to reconsider if you can. Rotax advises
> to use 91 Oct and stay away from 100LL if at all possible. We just gave a
> class and some pictures were shown to the students of the lead deposits. I
> think it made believers out of them.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316798#316798
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Washed gas technical considerations |
We may be missing important differences between Rotax 912 4-stroke engines
and Rotax 2-strokes. The 4-strokes risk lead plating out of the crancase
oil. Rotax 2 - strokes do not have crancase oil and therefor are different
beasts. In Rotax 4 - strokes, lead plating occurs because our Rotax
approved 4-stroke crankcase oils do not suspend lead that blows by the
piston to cylinder interface nearly as well as conventional ashless
dispersent aviation oils, which are not recommened for Rotax 4 - strokes.
With this difference in mind, for the 4-stroke 912s, Consider washed gas
with about 30 percent 100 LL added plus 25 hour oil changes. These two
protocols should do 2 things. One is prevent significant lead plating.
Second is, insure adequate octane for the 100 hp Rotax. Read more details
below.
AMOCO engineers working with the EAA on thier auto gas STCs for General
Aviation engines years ago, reported that even 30 percent 100 LL, when
mixed with 70 percent high octane unleaded auto gas would boost the octane
of the auto gas enough to provide an octane rating much higher than the
base auto gas and make octane no problem in high compression ratio
mid-1960s Corvettes and other muscle car engines as well as the Lycoming
in my normally aspirated Mooney.
At 30 percent 100 LL, The large amount of lead in the 100 LL should
return the 2 - 3 octane points lost washing premium auto gas so that 100
hp Rotax engines are happy. If anyone knows better, please chime in. This
may be important to the 15 percent ethanol discussion.
As an aside, the premium auto gas was bad for the wet wing gas tank
sealant in the Mooney, accelerating weapage and requiring resealing which
Mooney wet wing tanks were notorious for under the best of circumstances.
The 25 hour oil changes in the 912s may also be valuable so that the small
amount of lead that blows by the 4-stroke Rotax rings is carried out by
our Rotax approved oils. Longer oil change intervals may overcome the oils
capacity to suspend lead. Keep in mind that 912s have very little blow by
compared to big bore aircooled general aviation aircraft engines which use
100 LL exclusively.
It may be wise to Avoid fully synthetic oils in 912s when using a fuel mix
with 100 LL, unless they have ashless dispersant qualities. Fully
synthetic oils typically hold very little lead in suspension. Unlike our
Rotax 912s, big aircooled aviation engines require Aviation grade ashless
dispercent oils which hold lots of lead in suspension. This is necessary
because Continentals and Lycomings have very wide piston to cylinder
tolerances allowing lots of lead blow by compared to 912s. Many will
remember that Fully synthetic Mobil 1 caused engine failures because it
did not keep lead in suspension, ruining engines. Fully synthetic Mobil 1
was pulled from aviation use because of this.
By the way, in addition to the different considerations between 4-stroke
and 2-stroke engines in terms of 100 LL use, my Kitfox has FIBERGLASS
TANKS THAT ARE NOT ETHANOL RESISTANT, so washing premium auto gas and
adding 30 percent 100 LL seems like a logical alternative. I get plenty of
octance and my fuel filters are not clogged by deteriorating fiberglass
from the effect of ethanol on the gas tanks.
I hope others weigh in on these comments, maybe with more current
technical knowledge.
BJ
N154K Kitfox IV 80 hp Rotax
N626NR PA 39 Turbocharged Twin Comanche
> <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us>
>
> Ok, then what should we do? Use 15% ethanol, use 100ll 50% of the time,
> and
> 15% ethanol 50% of time .... my personal hope is that 100ll goes away as
> soon as possible and whatever substitute is made available will be better
> for the 912...high enough octane, no lead...a dream proabably...it won't
> happen until long after I am dead.....I really don't know what to
> do...'washing' ethanol-laced fuel doesn't appeal to me and ethanol-free
> auto
> gas is no longer available in my area.
>
> Your suggestion?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
> To: <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 4:33 PM
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 100ll 100% of the time
>
>
>> <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> Sounds like you have a good handle on the use of 100LL.
>> Buuuttt, If you have seen any pictures or a leaded engine or have seen
>> the engine top ends and gearbox's I have you wouldn't use 100LL unless
>> forced to during travel. When you see the lead paste build up in the oil
>> tank you will need to de-lead the gearbox at 800 hours not 1000 hrs. and
>> send the gearbox clutch in to have the lead removed or else it won't
>> properly work any more, or if you had seen the lead on top of the
>> pistons
>> and around the valves you may want to reconsider if you can. Rotax
>> advises
>> to use 91 Oct and stay away from 100LL if at all possible. We just gave
>> a
>> class and some pictures were shown to the students of the lead deposits.
>> I
>> think it made believers out of them.
>>
>> --------
>> Roger Lee
>> Tucson, Az.
>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>> Rotax Repair Center
>> 520-574-1080
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316798#316798
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 100ll 100% of the time |
Hi John,
I have to ask why not use the auto fuel?
If you were going to mix 100LL with Auto fuel then you might as well use all auto
fuel. The ethanol will not hurt the Rotax engine so that shouldn't even be
one of your concerns. Most all fuel lines now days can handle ethanol or we would
have all sorts of problems in our cars and motorcycles. So that leaves pretty
much just the fuel tank. Make sure it is ok with our 6%-8% ethanol that is
found at most pumps and just use the auto fuel. If there is absolutely no way
you can use the auto fuel and you are stuck with 100LL then you need to resign
yourself that you will and must do so extra maint.
The lead in 100LL is like smoking or cholesterol and fats in our blood. It doesn't
kill you or give you a heart attack today. It builds up over time until it's
too late.
There is no ethanol free fuel in my area either. I have been using it for many
years as others have here. People in the rest of the world use anywhere from 17%-24%
ethanol in their Rotax and have no issues. People who worry about ethanol
in their Rotax 912 are worrying over nothing. Just take a look at the rest
of the fuel system and if it's ok your set to go.
You can Kreem Weiss your tanks and that is not susceptible to the ethanol. My tanks
and all the aircraft like mine and other LSA have their tanks coated with
Kreem Weiss. It's good for sealing any kind of leaks, too. Personally if I had
wing tanks I would just coat them and don't look back.
Decalin, a lead scavenger will only do so much, but it does help. You still have
lead build up. If you use Decalin and 100LL you need to run higher rpm at cruise
(5300) to help keep the lead blown out. If you cruise around 4700-5000 rpm
you are not doing what needs to be done to help keep the engine clean. Anyone
who thinks 100LL with Decalin doesn't allow lead build up has never seen an
800 hr. engine or gearbox torn down. Sure it will run, but what you don't see
is harmful, just like the cholesterol. Just because you can't see it and your
engine hasn't given you any issues yet doesn't mean it isn't there.
>From what I have seen most peoples weakest link is the fuel tank with the ethanol.
Dan,
If the guy you are talking about with 800 hrs. has been using all 100LL for all
those hours he really should pull the gearbox and have the slipper clutch dismantled
and cleaned. Once the lead gets in there it isn't working any more. It
is just a solid piece of metal and if he has a prop strike it won't work. When
he has hard starts or shut downs it is harder on the system, too. We just got
through showing a bunch of people in a class pictures of gearbox clutches with
100LL use. They were amazed at how much lead really was in them. Pulled the
heads and showed them all the lead there, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316829#316829
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Washed gas technical considerations |
Hi B Jones,
If you wash your fuel and drop the octane to 88 then you will need to use at least
a 50/50 mix of auto fuel and 100LL to get you safely back to the 91-92 octane.
This is what Rotax calls for when using 87 Octane Mogas. No less than a 50/50
blend.
You are correct about not using a full synthetic oil because it will not suspend
lead. If you are going to use 100LL all the time at any percent use a semi synthetic
oil i.e. Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 or Golden Spectro 4 and they absolutely
do need to be motorcycle oils. Car oils do not have the additives for our
engine / gearbox system. Our engines are like our motorcycles and the engine
and gearbox oil is the same. The car oils can not handle the "shear" issues with
our gearbox.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316830#316830
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Washed gas technical considerations |
This statement is not aimed at anyone particular, but just a general statement.
The worst thing that happens to a Rotax engine is it's owner. If you follow Rotax's
maint program and recommendations you rarely ever have issues. It's only
when an owner wants to deviate and experiment because they think they no more
than Rotax that has been making these engines since late 1989 and spent millions
of dollars in research. The owner usually has never spent a dime in research
and it's the first 912 they have ever owned. Seems a little lopsided to me.
What we do with most things that are successful is use what we call our "Best
Practices". That means we test and run things down until we find what works best
and throw out the mistakes. Letting bad history repeat itself is not productive
and very expensive with a $19K engine if it's a 912ULS. The SLSA aircraft
have vary few engine issues compared to experimental's and that's because the
SLSA group has to follow the Rotax protocols.
I hear all sorts of myths or inaccuracies about the Rotax engine or it's maint.
I recommend to all to seek out a knowledgeable authorized Rotax repair person
for your info and not always just believe your neighbor, even if he is a nice
guy.
Please follow the Rotax maint. and recommendations. You will be a happier flier
with less maint overall and a lot more money left in your wallet in the long
run not to mention peace of mind knowing that the engine will more than likely
be there for you.
It's taken me years of classes and in field trials to see this and practice this,
but I'm definitely there now.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=316831#316831
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